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Who is in Rev 21:9-10 - bride of Christ or the holy city/NHNE?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by marty fox View Post

    John says it twice in revelation

    REV 21:2

    2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

    Rev 21:9-10
    9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
    10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
    Hallelujah Marty.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by randyk View Post
      I believe the assumption has to be made that John is shown the city, which is in effect the bride, or Church. After all, the eternal dwelling of believers will be in a *city.* The city represents the place where God dwells among His people, just as ancient Israel had to live in Jerusalem to be near the temple, where God dwelt.
      Yes this would be the correct view.

      The bride of Christ is written as a singular female however she is actually composed of a huge number of men and women (Christians). So is there one bride or many? The many form a singular. It is the same way with the Trinity. Three composing a single God does not equal 3 Gods despite that there are three of them in the Trinity. The three form a singular God.


      Christians are the bride:

      Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
      Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
      Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
      Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
      Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
      Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
      Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
      Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
      Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
      Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

      Here we are told plainly that the example of a man and his wife being of one flesh is about Christ and the church.


      Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God


      Here again it is Christians that will marry Christ who was raised from the dead.


      2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


      Spoken to Christians, the church, being presented as Virgins in a spiritual sense.


      Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

      Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


      If a woman "Babylon" also called a city can represent a group of unsaved people then certainly the bride of Christ, a group of saved people, can be represented as a city "New Jerusalem" as well.
      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post

        The Church is RAPTURED to be with Jesus in Heaven
        The church is only raptured to the clouds of the Earth, not to heaven. Jesus is descending to the ground of the Earth and only meets the church in the clouds during this descent.

        1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

        Comment


        • #19
          It is the Holy City, called the bride, the wife of Christ. Lets remember what Jesus said before he died and left earth.

          Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
          Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
          Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

          The NJ is our place Christ prepared for us and we will live there as soon as He comes back at the second coming. The NJ is not the church, but a build building prepared for the saints to live in. We as saints will live in Jerusalem while we rule on earth.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

            This is false. There are several scriptures (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17), that say when Jesus returns, we (the church) will be with him always. Furthermore, see Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

            If the church remain in heaven as you claim, which "nations" are they supposed to rule over in heaven? Thus the idea of our Lord Jesus being on earth while we remain in heaven to "help" him to build the NJ is absurd.
            You are kidding right ? You don't actually think we are going to be right up under Jesus CONTINUALLY do you ?You do understand that is Metaphoric for being IN THE LORDS PRESENCE via being OF THE LORD right ? I mean you guys go off on tangents that are absurd to the extreme to be polite.

            Pssttttt when the Church goes back to Heaven, the Holy Spirit will be there WITH US...........God is everywhere man !!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              Over the course of discussing another topic, the identity of what John saw in Rev 21:9-10 or the interpretation of the texts thereof have thrown up, as usual, a myriad of interpretations.

              Rev 21:9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

              10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

              Now, some argue that the passages above refer to the "bride" [church]. I am unable to accept this view as true when taken the whole context of the chapter into consideration. Is it possible that the holy city (aka New Jerusalem) is what John was shown descending from heaven? We know that multiple events can be revealed as God pleases in any vision as we see from Daniel's and John's visions in Revelation. Therefore I am suggesting THREE possible ways to look at verses 9-10 above.

              1. In v-9 John was actually shown the bride - the Lamb's wife - but she wasn't coming down from heaven! Although this might be a problem for those who say the church NEVER went to heaven before returning with Jesus.

              2. Verse 10 starts with "AND he carried me away in the spirit to..." this suggests that after John had seen the bride, he was then taken elsewhere and shown the holy city/NJ descending to earth. This clearly would indicate that the bride John saw in v-9 is different from the city he saw later when the angel took him up to a mountain. The scripture then goes on to detail the essentials of the holy city with its walls (Rev 21:10-27), etc. This is so the reality of the holy city/NJ would not be in question to the reader!

              3. In the 3rd option, verses Rev 21:9-10 may be all about the holy city/NJ. So how do we make sense of the reference to the "Lamb's wife"? In Jewish custom, a bride must be pure and undefiled before marriage. It is my contention that the holy city/NJ is being compared to a virgin because of its purity. Remember, it's made by God and not man (Heb 11:16). There is further support for this comparison; Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

              However, I recognise that options 1-3 cannot all be the true interpretation of the passages. But I won't force my own choice among the three on anyone, so kindly review and share your preferred interpretation of Rev 21:9-10?
              In verse 9, How do know the bride was not coming down from heaven? The bible does not specify where the bride was in verse 9. He merely said that he would show John the bride. Another point, how do you know that the bride will not be inside of New Jerusalem when it descends? We know the resurrection occurs before New Jerusalem descends. The dead in Christ rise to meet the Lord in the air. This is the bride of Christ and being raised is the 1st order of business before NJ descends.

              In verse 10, How do you know the bride that John saw in verse 9 was not the same as in verse 10. In verse 9, there is no specific detail given as to where John was taken. The text merely says, come hither. For all we know, when he came hither, was the point that he was carried away in the spirit to a great and high mountain.

              In point 3, why could it not be about both? The vision of NJ may be a representation of the Children of God, being one in the same. Just as Jesus described the city on a hill cannot be hid. No doubt he was referring to not only buildings but buildings and people.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

                In verse 9, How do know the bride was not coming down from heaven? The bible does not specify where the bride was in verse 9. He merely said that he would show John the bride. Another point, how do you know that the bride will not be inside of New Jerusalem when it descends? We know the resurrection occurs before New Jerusalem descends. The dead in Christ rise to meet the Lord in the air. This is the bride of Christ and being raised is the 1st order of business before NJ descends.

                In verse 10, How do you know the bride that John saw in verse 9 was not the same as in verse 10. In verse 9, there is no specific detail given as to where John was taken. The text merely says, come hither. For all we know, when he came hither, was the point that he was carried away in the spirit to a great and high mountain.

                In point 3, why could it not be about both? The vision of NJ may be a representation of the Children of God, being one in the same. Just as Jesus described the city on a hill cannot be hid. No doubt he was referring to not only buildings but buildings and people.
                Prophecy speaks separately about every event and about everything shown to us. If God speaks about the saints, it is the saints. Don't get confused by jumping up and down from message to message to try and understand prophecy. If you dont understand, listen.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by angelmike View Post
                  It is the Holy City, called the bride, the wife of Christ. Lets remember what Jesus said before he died and left earth.

                  Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
                  Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
                  Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

                  The NJ is our place Christ prepared for us and we will live there as soon as He comes back at the second coming.
                  Except he doesn't say he takes people anywhere. He comes back here to them. No scripture ever says Christ returns and then ever goes back to heaven. He rules here on Earth through the thousand years and into the eternity which is spent on Earth.


                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                    Except he doesn't say he takes people anywhere. He comes back here to them. No scripture ever says Christ returns and then ever goes back to heaven. He rules here on Earth through the thousand years and into the eternity which is spent on Earth.

                    Yes, you are right, we do not know everything if it is not given to us, but i do believe where the Father lives, the Son will also be. When we reign on earth with Christ, nothing else from heaven will be on earth. Only after the 1000j the NJ will appear on earth. So, to me that explains that heaven is still our home while we rule on earth.Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by angelmike View Post

                      So, to me that explains that heaven is still our home while we rule on earth.
                      But I haven't ever seen a scripture that says the saints go to heaven after the second coming and none that show Christ going back there either. Also, the camp of the saints is next to Jerusalem after the thousand years ends so naturally the saints lived there for the thousand years...The reason Satan and his army surrounds Jerusalem and the camp is because Christ and the saints are there, on the Earth.
                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                        Yes this would be the correct view.

                        The bride of Christ is written as a singular female however she is actually composed of a huge number of men and women (Christians). So is there one bride or many? The many form a singular. It is the same way with the Trinity. Three composing a single God does not equal 3 Gods despite that there are three of them in the Trinity. The three form a singular God.


                        Christians are the bride:

                        Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
                        Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
                        Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
                        Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
                        Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
                        Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
                        Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
                        Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
                        Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
                        Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

                        Here we are told plainly that the example of a man and his wife being of one flesh is about Christ and the church.


                        Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God


                        Here again it is Christians that will marry Christ who was raised from the dead.


                        2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


                        Spoken to Christians, the church, being presented as Virgins in a spiritual sense.


                        Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

                        Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


                        If a woman "Babylon" also called a city can represent a group of unsaved people then certainly the bride of Christ, a group of saved people, can be represented as a city "New Jerusalem" as well.
                        Saints are called: The body of Christ. Rom.12:5
                        Virgins.Matt.25; 2Co 11:2
                        Friends Joh.15:15
                        Church 1 Cor.1:2
                        Branches Joh.15:2
                        Quests Matt.9:15
                        The word bride is nowhere to be found when speaking to the saints. But, it is easy to elaborate a story of our own to fit our thoughts and desire.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by angelmike View Post


                          The word bride is nowhere to be found when speaking to the saints. But, it is easy to elaborate a story of our own to fit our thoughts and desire.
                          Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
                          Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by angelmike View Post

                            Prophecy speaks separately about every event and about everything shown to us. If God speaks about the saints, it is the saints. Don't get confused by jumping up and down from message to message to try and understand prophecy. If you dont understand, listen.
                            I fail to see how your comment has any relevancy to my response. Your comment at best is vague and has no real substance. If you have something to say, then say it and don't speak in riddles.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                              Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
                              Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
                              If i am the wife of Christ, i am according to the scripture already married to Christ.Why the necessary for a second marriage?
                              1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
                              1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                                But I haven't ever seen a scripture that says the saints go to heaven after the second coming and none that show Christ going back there either. Also, the camp of the saints is next to Jerusalem after the thousand years ends so naturally the saints lived there for the thousand years...The reason Satan and his army surrounds Jerusalem and the camp is because Christ and the saints are there, on the Earth.
                                I think its best to wait and see when the day appears.

                                Comment

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