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Revelation 9

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  • #61
    Originally posted by 6paths View Post

    You believe Anti-Christ begins in the 1st seal and I don't find him until the 5th trumpet.
    The first seal speaks of the events of the 6th trump when the AC conquers and rules. He may be active secretly in the 5th trump but I don't think that is what the seal is describing.



    The last world power can not be "blown in" until the 144,000 become Christians.
    They could be born into Christian families also. Just because their bloodlines connect to the tribes doesn't mean they weren't already Christians.




    When God the Father comes to earth, there is an earthquake. The throne of God is symbolized by lightnings, thunders, and voices.
    God the Father on earth is pictured in Rev 6:16, 8:5, 11:19 and 16:18.
    The Father isn't on the Earth in any of those verses. He remains in heaven where he is seen in Rev 20 raining fire down. Only after the GWTJ does the father come to the Earth.





    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

      The first seal speaks of the events of the 6th trump when the AC conquers and rules. He may be active secretly in the 5th trump but I don't think that is what the seal is describing.
      You have stated all trumpets sound after all the seals so how can the first seal speaks of event of the 6th trump?.

      In the 6th trumpet a third of the men are killed, the first four seals 1/4.

      Yes the 6th trump shows us four horseman but they are not same four horseman. God also has four horseman, the ones in the 6th trumpet are good the ones in the first four seals are evil.


      The Father isn't on the Earth in any of those verses. He remains in heaven where he is seen in Rev 20 raining fire down. Only after the GWTJ does the father come to the Earth.
      Holding the view of the 1000 years really makes one say some messed up stuff.






      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

        You have stated all trumpets sound after all the seals so how can the first seal speaks of event of the 6th trump?.
        Prophecy of course. All the seals will show things that will later occurs in each of the trumps.

        That's why Jesus could open the 6th seal which speaks of his second coming but Jesus doesn't actually leave heaven at the time of the seal being opened. The seals just give a glimpse into the future trumps.










        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

          The first seal speaks of the events of the 6th trump when the AC conquers and rules. He may be active secretly in the 5th trump but I don't think that is what the seal is describing.

          I believe AC has a 5 month role to play in the 5th trump before the 42 month reign in Rev 13.
          Seal 1 is connected with Seal 4. Seal 4 limits death to 1/4.
          1/3 of mankind is killed in the 6th trump.

          Besides, Matt 24:5-8 lists the first 4 seals and says "but the end is not yet" in verse 6.
          AC is for the end.



          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          They could be born into Christian families also. Just because their bloodlines connect to the tribes doesn't mean they weren't already Christians.


          They are born into Israelite families. They become Christian's. Who knows if their parents were Christian. It doesn't matter to me.



          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          The Father isn't on the Earth in any of those verses. He remains in heaven where he is seen in Rev 20 raining fire down. Only after the GWTJ does the father come to the Earth.


          Why would you say that the throne of God is associated with an earthquake in 4 different sections of the Revelation?



          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

            All the seals will show things that will later occurs in each of the trumps.
            So then the first seal would show the first trumpet event ect.....so then when we get to the 7th seal the events of the 7 trumpets are revealed.

            Thus the events in the trumpets cannot occur after the events of the seals are they are the same, though they may sound after.

            Now notice the same sequence in Rev 14 as we see 7 angels then we see seven 7 vials the next chapters. One may consider perhaps the seals represent these 7 angels and the 7 trumpets the are really the 7 vials. Thus there are not 14 judgements but only seven. 7 trumpets and 7 vial judgements being the same.

            Remember John is retelling the prophecy to a different audience.

            [/QUOTE]

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by 6paths View Post
              [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

              I believe AC has a 5 month role to play in the 5th trump before the 42 month reign in Rev 13.
              Well it wouldn't be the Antichrist per se' because that is only something happening in the 42 months...a person claiming to be God and is worshiped. It could be the AC before he actually is openly revealed.




              Why would you say that the throne of God is associated with an earthquake in 4 different sections of the Revelation?

              It wasn't me who said that. I don't agree with it.



              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                So then the first seal would show the first trumpet event ect....
                No because the person in the first seal is the AC IMO and that isn't what happens first in the 7 stages of the endtimes events.

                .so then when we get to the 7th seal the events of the 7 trumpets are revealed.
                No, the trumps aren't given to the angels until the event of the 7th seal is over.


                Thus the events in the trumpets cannot occur after the events of the seals are they are the same, though they may sound after.
                First you say, "trumpets cannot occur after the events of the seals" then you immediately contradict yourself, "though they may sound after".

                Which is it?

                Remember John is retelling the prophecy to a different audience.
                The book never says he is "retelling" anything. It just says he will prophesy again.




                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  Prophecy of course. All the seals will show things that will later occurs in each of the trumps.

                  That's why Jesus could open the 6th seal which speaks of his second coming but Jesus doesn't actually leave heaven at the time of the seal being opened. The seals just give a glimpse into the future trumps.
                  True. Jesus will still be in heaven when he opens the seals.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    [QUOTE=ewq1938;n2704739]

                    Well it wouldn't be the Antichrist per se' because that is only something happening in the 42 months...a person claiming to be God and is worshiped. It could be the AC before he actually is openly revealed.
                    [/QUOTE


                    Yes, this is AC before he is actually openly revealed.

                    He will not be a world ruler during the 5 months.


                    [QUOTE=ewq1938;n2704739]
                    It wasn't me who said that. I don't agree with it.
                    [/QUOTE

                    What is your interpretation of lightnings, voices, and thunders, and an earthquake?


                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by 6paths View Post

                      What is your interpretation of lightnings, voices, and thunders, and an earthquake?

                      I don't think any of that needs interpreted. They are exactly what they say they are.

                      Rev_8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

                      This happens before the trumpets sound.


                      Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

                      This is after the 7th trump sounds.


                      Rev_16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

                      This is after the 7th vial pours.


                      I don't see anything about God the Father coming to the Earth in any of these passages. He is not even in heaven or on the Earth during the GWTJ. Only after that is when I believe the Father will dwell on Earth.



                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                        No because the person in the first seal is the AC IMO and that isn't what happens first in the 7 stages of the endtimes events.
                        No the first seal is not the AC IMO. The first four seals are four kings. The AC comes from the fourth king/seal. Just as Daniel shows the AC (little horn) comes from the fourth beast.

                        The fourth seal = fourth beast

                        7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
                        8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

                        "Hell" followed with him represents this little horn. Notice the reference to "them" noting two individuals. The fourth beast king and then the little horn. The 5th seal then is this little horn in power for the little season. We see the same parallel in Rev 13, we see the four beasts then we see the second beast ie the little horn.

                        No, the trumps aren't given to the angels until the event of the 7th seal is over.
                        As you stated the seals show what is to take place in the trumpets. So then just because they are given the trumpets after still the same as the seals.


                        The book never says he is "retelling" anything. It just says he will prophesy again.
                        What would John then prophesy? A different story?




                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                          No the first seal is not the AC IMO. The first four seals are four kings.
                          Only the first rider has a crown so only he is a king. The white horse IMO is to copy the second coming in Rev 19 with Christ on a white horse conquering.

                          The AC comes from the fourth king/seal. Just as Daniel shows the AC (little horn) comes from the fourth beast.
                          Hell is not a person so that cannot be the AC. That would represent demons from hell.

                          The fourth seal = fourth beast

                          7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
                          8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

                          "Hell" followed with him represents this little horn. Notice the reference to "them" noting two individuals.
                          Them only signifies at least two but I believe this is much more than two people.


                          The fourth beast king and then the little horn.

                          The 4th beast has ten kings not one or two. At one point there are 11 kings, but the last king overthrows 3 of the 10...that's only found in Daniel 7 however. It doesn't happen according to Rev.


                          The 5th seal then is this little horn in power for the little season. We see the same parallel in Rev 13, we see the four beasts then we see the second beast ie the little horn.
                          Rev 13 has two beasts not 4. The 5th seal does refer to the time of the GT, we agree on that.


                          As you stated the seals show what is to take place in the trumpets.
                          There we have another agreement.


                          What would John then prophesy? A different story?
                          My point is just that the text does not say he is going to give the same exact prophecy again. It could be the same or it could be a new one.





                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                            Only the first rider has a crown so only he is a king. The white horse IMO is to copy the second coming in Rev 19 with Christ on a white horse conquering.
                            If so then who are the other three and why would they mentioned after?

                            Hell is not a person so that cannot be the AC. That would represent demons from hell.
                            Notice Hell is capitalized as a noun ie person. And if hell follows so too their king.


                            Them only signifies at least two but I believe this is much more than two people.
                            Again "them" indicates that both death and Hell are tow people. Note the rider on the house is called death, the second is called Hell. Just a name given.


                            The 4th beast has ten kings not one or two.
                            Correct, that does not mean the little horn can't have two horns. If you correctly understood the meaning of the horns it would makes sense to you.....10 horns, two horns ummmmm 12 horns seperated into 10 and 2 with he second being a Lamb? You don't need to have the gift of prophesy to figure this one out....


                            Rev 13 has two beasts not 4.
                            .

                            The first beast rev 13 has four animals (beasts). lion, bear, leopard and the beast himself. The second beast Rev 13 would be the little horn.






                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                              If so then who are the other three and why would they mentioned after?
                              I believe they are servants of the rider with the crown.



                              Notice Hell is capitalized as a noun ie person. And if hell follows so too their king.
                              Capitals mean nothing in scripture.




                              Again "them" indicates that both death and Hell are tow people.
                              That's not how Greek grammar works. Death and hell are two concepts but none of the language makes hell a person.



                              Correct, that does not mean the little horn can't have two horns.
                              The little horn in Daniel has no horns. He is a horn in symbolic terms.



                              If you correctly understood the meaning of the horns it would makes sense to you.....10 horns, two horns ummmmm 12 horns seperated into 10 and 2 with he second being a Lamb? You don't need to have the gift of prophesy to figure this one out....
                              The larger horns of a larger beast are a bit different than the little horns of a young lamb.
                              .

                              The first beast rev 13 has four animals (beasts). lion, bear, leopard and the beast himself.
                              The one beast has aspects of other beasts but is not 4 beasts.


                              The second beast Rev 13 would be the little horn.

                              Yes in basic comparison it's the same person John once called antichrist.




                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                                I don't think any of that needs interpreted. They are exactly what they say they are.

                                Rev_8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

                                This happens before the trumpets sound.


                                Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

                                This is after the 7th trump sounds.


                                Rev_16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

                                This is after the 7th vial pours.


                                I don't see anything about God the Father coming to the Earth in any of these passages. He is not even in heaven or on the Earth during the GWTJ. Only after that is when I believe the Father will dwell on Earth.


                                Sorry, I missed this until now.

                                Rev 4:5 "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices..."

                                Do you believe that lightnings and thunderings and voices are a symbol for the throne of God in the passages quoted above?

                                Do you believe that the exact same thing happens at 4 different times?

                                Why are the lightnings and thunderings and voices associated with an earthquake. Is there a correlation?

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