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  • Revelation 11

    1 And a reed like unto a rod was given unto me; and the angel stood, and said, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and they that worship therein.

    Very clear description of the temple rebuilt. This worship will only take place during the time when the temple completed before the Antichrist will sit in the temple and present himself as God. When the Antichrist sits in the temple, worship to God not allowed.

    2 But leave the court outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the Gentiles; and they shall tread down the holy city forty and two months.

    The followers of the Antichrist will tread the court where the image may stand for those who worship him.

    Jer. 51:51 We are ashamed, because we have heard reproach, shame hath covered our faces; for strangers have come upon the sanctuaries of the house of the LORD.

    3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, that, clothed in sackcloth, they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    4 They are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the God of the earth.

    This section shows the anointing of the Holy Spirit resting on the two anointed ones. Again, God will reveal His power through the two prophets who will discourage the false prophet and Antichrist over the teaching of the gospel to the people. This intervention of the two prophets will be a relief to Israel as she deceived by the traitors of her people and became one with the Antichrist. After building the temple, Israel will rely on the hope that God will meet them again, because they reckon He is gracious to them and has accomplished this wonderful moment of erection of the temple, because He wants to approach His people again. Unfortunately, when she finds the abomination sacrifice in the temple and the Antichrist who proclaims himself as God, she is disappointed with deceit. Tears go down because of this disappointment to note that they forbidden to honor God in the temple. Therefore, God sent hope for His people to rise up the prophets for His people so that they would not be discouraged in the time of the tribulation.

    Zec.4: 14 And he said, These are the two anointed ones that stand with the Lord of all the earth.

    5 And if any man will hurt them, fire cometh out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies; and if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in the same way.

    Of course, as in the days of Jesus, the Pharisees and scribes will try to kill them again. Usually the fool used to do the dirty work to his detriment. After several attempts, I do not think anyone will try to kill the prophets again. This defense will broadcast worldwide on television and many saints will praise God for His power He has given to the prophets. They will greatly encourage them to return to God and renounce the Antichrist.

    2Ki.1: 10 And Elijah answered and said unto the captain of fifty, If then I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and devour thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him with his fifty.

    6 They have power to shut heaven, so that in the days of their prophecy there will be no rain; and they have power over the waters, to turn it into blood, and to strike the earth with all kinds of plagues as often as they please.

    These two prophets are two Jewish prophets appointed by God. At this moment they designated by many as Enoch and Elijah who have not yet died. We also read in Matthew. 17: And, behold, Moses and Elijah appeared unto him in conversation with him. What I would also like to add is that research in God's Word does not give us the definitive answer to all our questions. In other words, as in John 21:22 Jesus said to him, If I want him to stay until I come, what is it about you? Follow Me. Here we see the final and definite decision coming from God Himself. Who are we to see the two prophets? Heb. 9:27 And just as men are destined to die once, and after that judgment, this scripture is used by many to support their view that the prophets must return to die. Here Paul refers to the natural death of man, but he does not make it a law that everyone must die to get to heaven. In Thessalonians, we read about the change that will take place with the saints when Jesus returns. I do not find any death occurring here. Therefore, there is no law that says you must be dead before a change can take place. The change that took place at Enoch and Elijah is also an example to us of the omnipotence of God. We have no indication in the Word that they walk on earth. The two prophets have seen when the 42 months start. So far, life has continued without any of the dead raised for any task. The Lord works the way He wants, not the way we want. I also found that some want to limit God, because He is almighty, it seems as if God has to do everything in a legalistic manner. If someone has not died, he must return to earth to die first so that he can live further in heaven. What a ridiculous suggestion that people make. Enoch walked with God and was no longer there. It is now almost six thousand years later and he is still with the Lord. The big problem with this so-called interpretation of the scribes is because they themselves are unbelievers and do not believe that God can raise someone to do this work. Jesus Himself said that we do greater works than He.

    John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and he will do greater works than these, because I go to my Father.

    7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and will overcome them and kill them;

    Rev. 17: 8 The beast that you saw was and is not, and will rise from the abyss and go into perdition;

    8 And their dead bodies shall be in the street of the great city, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    In the end, these two killed by the Antichrist. They will again glorify the God of Israel and Christ in Jerusalem so that the Israelites can believe in Christ. Now we understand why 144,000 save Jews. The church persecuted, so God needs someone in Jerusalem. Jesus also warned the church not to be in Jerusalem at this time.

    Isaiah 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, princes of Sodom . Listen to the law of our God, people of Gomorrah!

    9 And men of the peoples, and tribes, and tongues, and nations, shall see their dead bodies three and a half days, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be laid in the sepulcher.

    The reason for not burying the bodies is, because the contempt for the two prophets. The Antichrist wants to assert his victory over the two prophets. He wants everyone to see what happens to those who stand up for God. He exercises only his temporary power given to him on earth.

    Jeremiah 16: 6 Great and small shall die in this land; they will not be buried,

    10 The inhabitants of the earth will rejoice and rejoice in them and will send gifts to one another, because the two prophets tormented the inhabitants of the earth.

    The reason for their joy is that they feel relieved after the prophets tormented them with the plagues. They are so blinded by the false prophet that they do not have the truth can see and hear. Sin blinds the heart and makes man susceptible to evil. Their hearts are so hardened because the false prophet also works wonders just like the prophets of God. The same thing happened in Egypt when Moses went to see Pharaoh.


    11 And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

    While the world says eyes are set on the two prophets, they brought alive by the power of God. Rom. 8:11 And if the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you, then he that raised Christ from the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

    When these prophets will ascend to heaven is unclear. All we know is that their time of service is over. When we look at the period of the prophets, it should kept in mind that the time of the Antichrist and false prophet has also expired, indicating that the Second Coming is imminent. It may be a possibility that these two prophets will resurrect at the second coming with all the saints, though the saints who are changed and those who rise from the graves not seen.

    13 And at that hour, there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell, and seven thousand men perished in the earthquake, and the others were afraid, and glorified to the God of heaven.

    Once again, we find the tremendous fight against light and darkness. The actions of the people who show the heartlessness and hardening in their hearts to revolt against God by deluding them into the death of His two prophets. Blatant arrogance against God, but their own carelessness and bitterness towards the prophets brings punishment that some lead to repentance. Today, television follows everything that happens on earth.

    14-18 The second woe is past; look, the third is coming soon. And the seventh angel sounded, and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of the world are become the property of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, We thank You, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was and who is coming, that You have taken great power and reigned as King. And the nations were wroth, and thy anger was come, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, both small and great, and to destroy the destroyers of the earth.

    Isaiah 44:23 Sing, O heavens, for the LORD hath done this. Rejoice, the depths of the earth! Break forth into singing, O mountains, forests and all the trees in it! For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and will glorify himself to Israel .


    19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and his ark of the covenant was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings and voices and thunderings and earthquakes and great hail.

    Isa. 6: 1 In the year of the death of King Uzziah I saw the Lord sitting upon a high and exalted throne, while his sockets filled the temple.

  • #2
    Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)

    Rev.11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    {{{ The first three verses tells us what the Two-witnesses parameters are. They are not come to the Gentiles per se, but to call the Jews to repentance. John is told to MEASURE the Temple, the Altar AND them {Jews} that worship therein, so this is about the Jews being MEASURED or called to repentance by Elijah see Malachi 4:5-6, Elijah is SENT BACK to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the coming of the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord.But John is told not to measure the outer court {Gentiles} for that is not the calling of these Two-witnesses.}}}

    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    {{{ These Two-witnesses call Israel to repent, then they actually pray down every Plagues from God, the Seals, the Trumps and the Vials even though they die during the Second Woe, they Pray down the 3rd Woe {which is ALL 7 Vials combined} and thus their duty/Ministry on earth is finished. This is why we are told about the 7th Trump in this chapter, but not given the DETAILS, they pray it down, but die before it comes to pass. You see the Two-witnesses arrive BEFORE the Beast {75 days before} and thus also DIE BEFORE the Beast dies at the 2nd Woe vs, the 7th Vial. We are also told about the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11, but that happened during Rev. ch 9 as we know, and thus the DETAILS are in ch. 9, just like the 7th Trump {3rd Woe} DETAILS are given to us in Rev. 16. You see, Rev, 11 is a Parenthetical Citation Chapter, }}}

    No use posting the rest of the scriptures as I have explained it all..........I will add that the reason Jesus is shown to TAKE OVER in this chapter is because the end of this chapter, Rev. 14:18-20, Rev. 16:19 and Rev. 19's Armageddon/Marriage Supper Feast are all the EXACT SAME EVENT !!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by angelmike View Post

      When these prophets will ascend to heaven is unclear.
      The text is pretty clear they ascend into heaven immediately after their resurrection.
      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by angelmike View Post
        1 And a reed like unto a rod was given unto me; and the angel stood, and said, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and they that worship therein.

        Very clear description of the temple rebuilt. This worship will only take place during the time when the temple completed before the Antichrist will sit in the temple and present himself as God. When the Antichrist sits in the temple, worship to God not allowed.

        2 But leave the court outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the Gentiles; and they shall tread down the holy city forty and two months.

        The followers of the Antichrist will tread the court where the image may stand for those who worship him.

        Jer. 51:51 We are ashamed, because we have heard reproach, shame hath covered our faces; for strangers have come upon the sanctuaries of the house of the LORD.

        3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, that, clothed in sackcloth, they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

        4 They are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the God of the earth.

        This section shows the anointing of the Holy Spirit resting on the two anointed ones. Again, God will reveal His power through the two prophets who will discourage the false prophet and Antichrist over the teaching of the gospel to the people. This intervention of the two prophets will be a relief to Israel as she deceived by the traitors of her people and became one with the Antichrist. After building the temple, Israel will rely on the hope that God will meet them again, because they reckon He is gracious to them and has accomplished this wonderful moment of erection of the temple, because He wants to approach His people again. Unfortunately, when she finds the abomination sacrifice in the temple and the Antichrist who proclaims himself as God, she is disappointed with deceit. Tears go down because of this disappointment to note that they forbidden to honor God in the temple. Therefore, God sent hope for His people to rise up the prophets for His people so that they would not be discouraged in the time of the tribulation.

        ...
        I will give my understanding as a comparison. A full exegesis of a whole Chapter would take a small book.

        According to Daniel 9:26-27, which reads;

        26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
        27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."


        The grammar, as agreed on by most translators, is that "the people .... that shall comes to destroy the city and the sanctuary" is the Roman army under Titus. Whether or nor Titus used mercenaries, and whether or not his orders were obeyed or not, is not the scope of scripture, but of secular historians. Scripture names "A PEOPLE". And the naming of this "PEOPLE" is to establish the NATIONALITY of the "Prince that confirms THE Covenant with many". So the first thing established is that the Prince is a ROMAN and thus a GENTILE. The second thing that is established is the "the many" AGREE to this Gentile Prince. One only enters discussions about a Covenant VOLUNTARILY. That the Jews will do this WILLINGLY is easily understood because of what it entailed.

        In what way was the Covenant "confirmed" or, more literally "strengthened". But first we must ask; "WHICH COVENANT?" There can only be one answer - The Covenant of Sinai - the Law of Moses. How do we know? We know because the "Daily Oblation" only appears in this Covenant. In not one other Covenant in the whole Bible is the Daily Oblation regulated. This leads us to the second important point,; "what means "confirm" or "strengthen"? It means that the Covenant is in tatters and by some act it can be brought back to "strength". And what is the one thing that leaves the Law in tatters. The answer is; NO TEMPLE! The Law, although given in the wilderness, is designed for when Israel occupied the Good Land. And the center of the Law is the TEMPLE - the "place where God chose to put His Name" The Feasts of Israel, and their tithes (of their harvests) all revolve around the Temple. Anybody who has the political clout to get Israel their Temple back, will be welcomed with open arms. And that is just it, as Israel's crisis deepens, and her enemies become more numerous and more accepted by the rest of the world, the man who has the charisma and political acumen to get the world's permission to let Israel have her Temple again, will be a most remarkable and politically powerful man.

        Now, one thing that is often forgotten is that at Christ's trial before Pilate, Pilate himself found no cause for crucifixion. The enemies of our Lord, who had stirred up the people, only had one argument left to force Pilate to condemn Jesus. The argument was that Jesus claimed to be a King, and that put Him in direct opposition with CAESAR. It was this argument that tipped Pilate. Here he was about to let a very famous Man go, but His OWN PEOPLE said that THEY CLAIMED CAESAR as their king. Politically, this was brilliant move. If Pilate let our Lord Jesus go, they first carrier pigeon to arrive in Rome would declare that Pilate had sanctioned a treasonous enemy of Caesar. Pilate capitulates, BUT GOD IS LISTENING. And men are accountable for their words!!! So Israel, when the time comes, GETS THEIR CAESAR - the Beast. The point is THAT ISRAEL WANTED A CAESAR. The called upon Caesar when Jesus was offered to them as King. And they called upon Caesar to the extent that their real King's blood be upon THEM upon them and THEIR CHILDREN. The Beast is WELCOME in Jerusalem!

        And when, three and one half years later, the Beast, a Gentile and a Caesar, cancels the daily oblation and moves into the Holy Place of this newly built Temple, whether they like it or not, HE IS THEIR KING and they OWE HIM! But what has Israel done? Never mind who it is that resides in the Holy Place, ONLY GOD, WHO IS A SPIRIT, IS ALLOWED THERE. The Beast has cancelled the daily oblation, but what have Israel done? Israel have broken the first and second and third commandments. They, who were so zealous to get the temple in order to KEEP the Law, are now the MAIN TRANSGRESSORS OF THE LAW. A MAN, and his IDOL have taken up residence in a place reserved only for God. And Israel have WORSHIPED him. Instead of calling upon the Name "Jehovah", they now call him "Caesar Nero".

        God is incensed! What all have Israel done???
        1. They have made a pact with a Gentile - forbidden by the Law
        2. They have complied with the instructions and orders of a Gentile - forbidden by the Law
        3. They have not resisted the ending of the daily oblation - against the Law
        4. They have made a gentile their king - against the Law
        5. They have put their dependence on a MAN
        6. They have allowed this Gentile man to enter the Temple
        7. They have allowed a non-Levite to enter the Temple
        8. They have allowed a non-descendant of Aaron into the Holy of Holies
        9. They have allowed this man to be as God
        10. They have allowed this man's effigy to be built and placed in the Holy of Holies
        This action by Israel is the trigger for the Great Tribulation (Matt.24:15-21). But God is EVER GRACIOUS. Even in His hot anger He gives Israel yet another warning - TWO WITNESSES to preach Israel's breach of the Law. God allows TWO MEN who have WITNESSED something, to call on Israel to see their folly and repent.

        That is enough for now. I will continue, God willing.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Walls View Post

          I will give my understanding as a comparison. A full exegesis of a whole Chapter would take a small book.

          According to Daniel 9:26-27, which reads;

          26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
          27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."


          The grammar, as agreed on by most translators, is that "the people .... that shall comes to destroy the city and the sanctuary" is the Roman army under Titus. Whether or nor Titus used mercenaries, and whether or not his orders were obeyed or not, is not the scope of scripture, but of secular historians. Scripture names "A PEOPLE". And the naming of this "PEOPLE" is to establish the NATIONALITY of the "Prince that confirms THE Covenant with many". So the first thing established is that the Prince is a ROMAN and thus a GENTILE. The second thing that is established is the "the many" AGREE to this Gentile Prince. One only enters discussions about a Covenant VOLUNTARILY. That the Jews will do this WILLINGLY is easily understood because of what it entailed.

          In what way was the Covenant "confirmed" or, more literally "strengthened". But first we must ask; "WHICH COVENANT?" There can only be one answer - The Covenant of Sinai - the Law of Moses. How do we know? We know because the "Daily Oblation" only appears in this Covenant. In not one other Covenant in the whole Bible is the Daily Oblation regulated. This leads us to the second important point,; "what means "confirm" or "strengthen"? It means that the Covenant is in tatters and by some act it can be brought back to "strength". And what is the one thing that leaves the Law in tatters. The answer is; NO TEMPLE! The Law, although given in the wilderness, is designed for when Israel occupied the Good Land. And the center of the Law is the TEMPLE - the "place where God chose to put His Name" The Feasts of Israel, and their tithes (of their harvests) all revolve around the Temple. Anybody who has the political clout to get Israel their Temple back, will be welcomed with open arms. And that is just it, as Israel's crisis deepens, and her enemies become more numerous and more accepted by the rest of the world, the man who has the charisma and political acumen to get the world's permission to let Israel have her Temple again, will be a most remarkable and politically powerful man.

          Now, one thing that is often forgotten is that at Christ's trial before Pilate, Pilate himself found no cause for crucifixion. The enemies of our Lord, who had stirred up the people, only had one argument left to force Pilate to condemn Jesus. The argument was that Jesus claimed to be a King, and that put Him in direct opposition with CAESAR. It was this argument that tipped Pilate. Here he was about to let a very famous Man go, but His OWN PEOPLE said that THEY CLAIMED CAESAR as their king. Politically, this was brilliant move. If Pilate let our Lord Jesus go, they first carrier pigeon to arrive in Rome would declare that Pilate had sanctioned a treasonous enemy of Caesar. Pilate capitulates, BUT GOD IS LISTENING. And men are accountable for their words!!! So Israel, when the time comes, GETS THEIR CAESAR - the Beast. The point is THAT ISRAEL WANTED A CAESAR. The called upon Caesar when Jesus was offered to them as King. And they called upon Caesar to the extent that their real King's blood be upon THEM upon them and THEIR CHILDREN. The Beast is WELCOME in Jerusalem!

          And when, three and one half years later, the Beast, a Gentile and a Caesar, cancels the daily oblation and moves into the Holy Place of this newly built Temple, whether they like it or not, HE IS THEIR KING and they OWE HIM! But what has Israel done? Never mind who it is that resides in the Holy Place, ONLY GOD, WHO IS A SPIRIT, IS ALLOWED THERE. The Beast has cancelled the daily oblation, but what have Israel done? Israel have broken the first and second and third commandments. They, who were so zealous to get the temple in order to KEEP the Law, are now the MAIN TRANSGRESSORS OF THE LAW. A MAN, and his IDOL have taken up residence in a place reserved only for God. And Israel have WORSHIPED him. Instead of calling upon the Name "Jehovah", they now call him "Caesar Nero".

          God is incensed! What all have Israel done???
          1. They have made a pact with a Gentile - forbidden by the Law
          2. They have complied with the instructions and orders of a Gentile - forbidden by the Law
          3. They have not resisted the ending of the daily oblation - against the Law
          4. They have made a gentile their king - against the Law
          5. They have put their dependence on a MAN
          6. They have allowed this Gentile man to enter the Temple
          7. They have allowed a non-Levite to enter the Temple
          8. They have allowed a non-descendant of Aaron into the Holy of Holies
          9. They have allowed this man to be as God
          10. They have allowed this man's effigy to be built and placed in the Holy of Holies
          This action by Israel is the trigger for the Great Tribulation (Matt.24:15-21). But God is EVER GRACIOUS. Even in His hot anger He gives Israel yet another warning - TWO WITNESSES to preach Israel's breach of the Law. God allows TWO MEN who have WITNESSED something, to call on Israel to see their folly and repent.

          That is enough for now. I will continue, God willing.
          Thanks Uncle Wallie, a very nice exposition of future temple events. It is true, Israel thinks, by rejecting Christ, God will give mercy and first set aside the command that He has given us through His Son. Two thirds of the population will be exterminated. Now I ask, why such a massacre if their law is right? No, Israel is out of God's will and will experience His wrath when God allows the AC to rule them. I call the temple; the temple of the AC. Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
            Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)

            Rev.11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

            {{{ The first three verses tells us what the Two-witnesses parameters are. They are not come to the Gentiles per se, but to call the Jews to repentance. John is told to MEASURE the Temple, the Altar AND them {Jews} that worship therein, so this is about the Jews being MEASURED or called to repentance by Elijah see Malachi 4:5-6, Elijah is SENT BACK to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the coming of the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord.But John is told not to measure the outer court {Gentiles} for that is not the calling of these Two-witnesses.}}}

            4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

            {{{ These Two-witnesses call Israel to repent, then they actually pray down every Plagues from God, the Seals, the Trumps and the Vials even though they die during the Second Woe, they Pray down the 3rd Woe {which is ALL 7 Vials combined} and thus their duty/Ministry on earth is finished. This is why we are told about the 7th Trump in this chapter, but not given the DETAILS, they pray it down, but die before it comes to pass. You see the Two-witnesses arrive BEFORE the Beast {75 days before} and thus also DIE BEFORE the Beast dies at the 2nd Woe vs, the 7th Vial. We are also told about the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11, but that happened during Rev. ch 9 as we know, and thus the DETAILS are in ch. 9, just like the 7th Trump {3rd Woe} DETAILS are given to us in Rev. 16. You see, Rev, 11 is a Parenthetical Citation Chapter, }}}

            No use posting the rest of the scriptures as I have explained it all..........I will add that the reason Jesus is shown to TAKE OVER in this chapter is because the end of this chapter, Rev. 14:18-20, Rev. 16:19 and Rev. 19's Armageddon/Marriage Supper Feast are all the EXACT SAME EVENT !!
            This is a great post and I agree with your position. I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say, the two witness pray down....

            But you clearly illustrate well, there is no chronology to the book of Revelation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

              This is a great post and I agree with your position. I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say, the two witness pray down....

              But you clearly illustrate well, there is no chronology to the book of Revelation.
              Of course there is some chronology but the chronology does change in various places. Mainly the beginning and the end chapters are chronological in nature. The middle chapters tend to be all over the place. So, no one can claim the book is fully chronological nor that there is no chronology.
              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                Of course there is some chronology but the chronology does change in various places. Mainly the beginning and the end chapters are chronological in nature. The middle chapters tend to be all over the place. So, no one can claim the book is fully chronological nor that there is no chronology.
                Surprisingly, I agree with you on this point regarding Revelation. I think you're on the brink of becoming an amil.

                Hahaha, Just Joking. But great response

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

                  Surprisingly, I agree with you on this point regarding Revelation. I think you're on the brink of becoming an amil.

                  Hahaha, Just Joking. But great response
                  It's just an obvious observation about the book. Anyone that doesn't understand that definitely does not understand Revelation. The jumpy chronology is one of the keys to understand it as I am sure you also know.

                  The only parts of Amil I agree with are actually not core doctrines but side things Amil's tend to believe in like no animal sacrifices returning, and how the church is true Israel but everything else Amil teaches related to the thousand years and when Christ returns are not things I can agree with. Amil definitely fails on the chronology of the last chapters of Rev.

                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
                    Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)


                    You see the Two-witnesses arrive BEFORE the Beast {75 days before} and thus also DIE BEFORE the Beast dies at the 2nd Woe vs, the 7th Vial. We are also told about the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11, but that happened during Rev. ch 9 as we know, and thus the DETAILS are in ch. 9, just like the 7th Trump {3rd Woe} DETAILS are given to us in Rev. 16. You see, Rev, 11 is a Parenthetical Citation Chapter, }}}

                    How do you get to the calculation of the 75 days?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                      It's just an obvious observation about the book. Anyone that doesn't understand that definitely does not understand Revelation. The jumpy chronology is one of the keys to understand it as I am sure you also know.

                      The only parts of Amil I agree with are actually not core doctrines but side things Amil's tend to believe in like no animal sacrifices returning, and how the church is true Israel but everything else Amil teaches related to the thousand years and when Christ returns are not things I can agree with. Amil definitely fails on the chronology of the last chapters of Rev.
                      To be honest, I don't really condemn the postmil position, regarding those who believe the 1000 year reign will occur after the trib period. But as you already know my view, do not believe in a rapture before the 1000 year period.

                      But I do believe the 1000 year period began with the death/resurrection of Christ.

                      I do respect your belief and know that you do not agree. You have challenged me so many times and you know your bible very well.

                      Regardless of our differences, I know I will see you in heaven and our differences do not separate us. Our discussions only make us more knowledgeable.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                        But I do believe the 1000 year period began with the death/resurrection of Christ.
                        I agree a period of time starts there but I see it as the church age and not part of the thousand years which would be what I see as the Church literally ruling the world and all powers, kingdoms and governments in a very literal sense not only in some kind of spiritual sense. In the thousand years I do not believe pagan religions are allowed to be practiced nor any non-Christian governments or rulers of those governments as we have now. It will be a time only God's truth and the Gospel will be taught with no opposition etc.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

                          To be honest, I don't really condemn the postmil position, regarding those who believe the 1000 year reign will occur after the trib period. But as you already know my view, do not believe in a rapture before the 1000 year period.

                          But I do believe the 1000 year period began with the death/resurrection of Christ.
                          This is what the script says: Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

                          So, how come your calculation is different than what is written in Revelation. The devil was bound for a 1000 years only after Christ's return.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by angelmike View Post

                            How do you get to the calculation of the 75 days?
                            Via the 1260, 1290 and 1335......its all BACKWARDS from what everyone or most thinks. To tell the truth most are clueless on this as I was for 25-30 years until about a year or 2 ago. I finally saw it, but only because I realized THE SACRIFICE is really Jesus that's TAKEN AWAY and that the Jews really have already REPENTED before they Flee Judea, else why would they heed Jesus and Flee Judea when they see the AoD ? So when I had all that info, suddenly I saw that age old riddled and I was just stunned, its really so obvious, but like huge puzzles, without missing info we might think a picture puzzle of 1000 pieces is anything. The thing is, every time I had a question, the answer was always YES........THIS FITS.

                            So, I was reading Daniel one day and I understood the 1290 had to be BEFORE the 1260, because God wouldn't have the Jews Fleeing 30 days AFTER the Beast Conquers Jerusalem, it just made no sense, and many think its 1290 days after the Middle of the Week thus 30 days into the 1000 year reign, {they say that only because they really have no idea what it means tbh, its just a guess}they then therefore think the 1335 BLESSING is 75 days into Jesus' reign also. Even though the 1260 is "THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK and thus its just not accurate, God has perfect Symmetry in everything He does.

                            So I saw that Jesus {Man in linen} tells the Angel who asked the Question in verse 6 {when he asks "How long till these Wonder end ?" } that it will be for a Time, times and half [time]. Well Rev. 12 tells us its 1260 days, but we already knew that. So Jesus just told the Angel and thus Daniel it will be 1260 days from the time the holy peoples are conquered until ALL THESE WONDERS END !! Well what Wonders ? The Wonders they were explaining to Daniel, they all ended 1260 days after the Beast Conquers the holy peoples {Jews}. So that means the Second Coming ends all these things, in other words, Jesus will show up to change the world as we know it........we all know this is true, now we can look at verse 8 in a different light. It's Daniel's turn to ask now.

                            Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

                            11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


                            It suddenly hit me, Daniel ASKED the exact same question as the Angel, so the two Numbers Jesus gives him mean the EXACT SAME THING !! How long until THESE WONDERS END !! Or until the Second Coming ends these wonders. Now I had to test this out via logic to see if it fit, "Try they spirits to see if they are of the Lord". Sometimes the Devil whispers untruths unto us, we have to test them, does it fit I asked myself, the journey began. So every thing was BACKWARDS from what many thought, or in some cases on the opposite end of the timeline.

                            Did the 1290 make sense ? How could it ? The Anti-Christ doesn't Conquer the Jews until the 1260, which I was now thinking was 30 days later, how could that be ? I had to overcome that hurdle, but first I was like does the 1290 happening 30 days before the 1260 even make sense ? And it did, why wouldn't God give the Jews THE SIGN {AoD} before they were Conquered by the Anti-Christ at the 1260 ? It didn't even make ANY SENSE that it was 30 days later at the 1290 IF the 1290 was 30 days later, so it had to be BEFORE the 1260, and God giving the Jews 30 days to Flee Judea made perfect sense tbh. So it passed the first test. So I still had a problem with the SACRIFICE being TAKEN AWAY and the AoD being placed, 30 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ showed up, how could this be I thought. Then it hit me, Revelation ch. 13 says the False Prophet PLACES an Image of the Beast in the Temple of God and DEMANDS all men worship him or die eventually. I have always known or for 5-10 years, that the False Prophet was a Jew, but just in the last 2 or 3 years have I figured out that he will be a Jewish High Priest. This came to me as I was studying Daniel 11 and 12 and doing an exegesis on EVERY King {I can link to it, I think its on this site} in Dan. 11 when I figured out via study that Antiochus was THE TYPE of Anti-Christ like most people thought, but when I looked up things in the book of Maccabeans and via history, I saw this dude named Jason who BRIBED Antiochus to become the High Priest, thus having his Pious High Priest brother, Onias III killed {I stumbled on this accidentally}. His Jewish name was Yeshua, he tried to Hellenize the Jews leading to the Maccabean Revolt. Thus he was a TYPE False Prophet, I had found him by accident via study. Thus the coming False Prophet will try to do a MODERN Hellenization of the Jews but it may be called Humanism instead, and he will try to make the Jews worship this HUMAN/Man as god or else !!

                            Seeing as he is the Jewish High Priest, he will probably HATE Jesus as many Jews do in Israel to this very day, if a kin folk converts to Christianity the Jews for the most part cut them off and despise them, some even spit on them, they don't hate Christians per se, but they hate Jews who convert in many cases. So this man will despise Jewish Converts to Christianity or Messianic Jews thus he will seek to do two things once the Jews Repent {1/3 Repent see Zechariah 13:8-9} he will stop THE SACRIFICE {Jesus} from being Worshiped in the Temple maybe in Jerusalem, but for sure in the Temple, and then he will place a Statue/Image of the European President in the Temple {AoD} and when the Messianic Jews see this THEY KNOW to Flee, the rest of the Jews {2/3 who perish} will be clueless. So IT FIT this narrative also, the Jews will HAVE TO REPENT BEFORE the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem in order to know they must Flee when they see the AoD. Now we have to see if the Jews indeed Repent BEFORE the 1260 Event.

                            Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

                            So it fits that Israel REPENTS BEFORE the 1260 Event {DOTL}. God sends Elijah, or the Two-witnesses back BEFORE the 1260 Event to get Israel to turn back to God !!

                            Now it hit me, the 1335 BLESSING is the Two-witnesses showing up 1335 days BEFORE THESE WONDERS END !! Or before the Second Coming ends the age of Satan over mankind on earth. They get a 1/3 of the Jews to repent. Satan will be locked in the pit for 1000 years. All these NUMBERS are EVENTS and how many days it is from EACH EVENT until Jesus comes to END THESE WONDERS !!

                            1.) 1335, the two-witnesses show up to turn Israel back unto God as the 70th week Prophecy says MUST HAPPEN. Only then will they understand that they need to Flee Judea when they see the Abomination of Desolation standing where it ought not. Another thing.....why would Jesus even SPEAK about a PROFANE SACRIFICE being stopped ? He wouldn't, hes speaking about THE SACRIFICE {Jesus himself} being taken away from the Jews who repented via an Evil Jewish High Priest who forbids Jesus worship, and then to spite them places an IMAGE of the E.U. President {Beast} up, he knows this man will eventually come to power, so he does what Jason did, BETRAYS HIS OWN PEOPLE !!

                            2.) 1290, After the Jews have repented and started worshiping Jesus in the Temple of God, this man forbids Jesus Worship in the Temple {TAKES the Sacrifice away} and then places an Image of the Beast in the Temple like Rev. 13 says, and demands all men worship him or die !!

                            3.) 1260, This is when the Anti-Christ/E.U. President Conquers Jerusalem and THE MANY {Mediterranean Sea Region Nations.SEE Dan.11:40-43, Israel, Syria/Lebanon and all of North Africa}. This starts the Day of the Lord and it ends at the 7th Vial. Everything so far fit perfectly. Now I wondered, does this fit the Two-witnesses TIMELINES ? Well of course it did, because its TRUTH and Gods truths always fit.

                            Both the Beast and the Two-witnesses have 1260 day MINISTRIES on earth, God did this so we can JUXTAPOSE them against each other, its brilliant, but of course, Hes God !! You see, since the Two-witnesses DIE FIRST {Second Woe} then they have to SHOW UP FIRST {Before the Day of the Lord....Malachi 4:5-6}. So the Two-witnesses SHOW UP at the 1335, they of course are the BLESSING, I mean what better blessing could Israel have than finding their God again ? HELLO !! Then 45 days later an Angry False Prophet Jewish High Priest decides to throw in with the E.U. President, forbid Jesus Worship and put up an Image of the E.U. President in the Temple, just like Jason tried to Hellenize the Jews this man wants the Jews to be HUMANISTS and Worship MAN as God !! Then of course, lastly, the E.U. President/A.C. Conquers Jerusalem and the MANY [Nations] to become the Beast. Then there will be 1260 days of TYRANT RULE on earth.

                            That's where I get the 75 days from............

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

                              This is a great post and I agree with your position. I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say, the two witness pray down....

                              But you clearly illustrate well, there is no chronology to the book of Revelation.
                              Rev. 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

                              In chapter 8 we see when the "Prayer of the Saints" come before God;s Nostrils he casts FIRE DOWN to earth via a Trumpet Judgment.
                              Here in Rev. 11:9-10 we see the they are so despised that when they die the peoples of earth will not even bury them, and they REJOICE at their deaths. The Two-witnesses are Praying down God's Judgments on mankind. Its God's Will, but his Servants stretch out their "STAFFS" so to speak like Moses, I think one is Elijah and one is Moses.

                              As per the Book of Revelation, it has a Chronological Order to it but we have to be able to see the Parenthetical Citation Chapters also. It goes like this:

                              Rev.1 is Jesus Glorified {The things which you have SEEN}

                              Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age {The things which ARE}

                              Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture and thus everything after Rev, 4:1 are the things which will be {HEREAFTER}.

                              Rev. 4 and 5 are THE CHURCH in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are Opened.

                              Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 are the Judgment Chapters. This finishes out the book of Revelation as per Satan being OVER MANKIND. Babylon Falls means Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth is over.

                              Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and most of 19 are Parenthetical Citation Chapters, they happen during the RED JUDGMENT CHAPTERS ABOVE: They are not real time event chapters per se. Each chapter has its own unique purpose so to speak. Ch. 10 is my least understood chapter, I have all the other pegged, I think I know 10, but....I don't spend much time on it tbh.

                              Rev. 10 is a FLASH FORWARD to the Very End Times thus TIME WILL BE NO MORE !!

                              Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses chapter, it covers 1260 days PLUS it tells about the coming 7th Trump which is the 3rd Woe which is ALL 7 Vials. {I covered this above}

                              Rev. 12 starts in Rev. ch. 6, the Beast ARISES to power and at the 6th Seal the Dragon is cast down to earth. He is the UNTIMELY FIGS/Stars cast to earth. All of the Seals are opened on day 1261 out of 2520 days, leaving the Beast 1260 days to RULE and the Dragon 1260 days to CHASE the Woman {Israel}. The Seals, save for the 7th Seal are are forward looking Judgments, Jesus the Lamb gives the earth the King Tyrant their heart so desires. He Conquers for 42 Months, brings War for 42 Months, brings Starvation/Famine for 42 months, brings Sickness and Death over a 42 month period. And even in the 5th Seal, the Tyrant Beast kills or Martyrs the Saints for 42 Months {Saints being the Remnant Church seen in Rev. 12:17.

                              Rev. 13 also starts in Rev. 6, the Beast arises to Power by CONQUERING Jerusalem and the MANY [Nations] in the Mediterranean Sea Region.

                              Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter, it covers the FULL SEVEN YEARS imho. We see the Wheat on Mt. Zion {144,000 is really ALL Israel who REPENT so 2-3 million or more} and they grow TOGETHER with the Evil TARES {Evil men who take the Mark of the Beast} seen or Harvested in verses 18-20, we see they are placed in the Wine-press of Gods Wrath, whereas the Wheat will be gathered into the Fathers barn !! The Tares will be BUNDLED {Buried} and then BURNED LATER {1000 years later at the Second Death}. There is a SORTA SOLILOQUY in verse 14, Jesus ON A CLOUD takes or Harvests the Church. This actually happens BEFORE the 144,000 {All Israel} are Harvested because we come back with Jesus on White Horses, see Rev. 19. So this chapter covers the full 7 years, as does Rev. ch.19.

                              Rev. 17 is the Harlot Chapter, this starts in Rev. ch.6, its the Kings in league with the Beast KILLING OFF All False Religion {Harlot} of all time. This Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism are all destroyed.

                              Rev.18 is Babylon {WHOLE WORLD} being Destroyed by the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Plagues over a 42 moth period of time known as the Day of the Lord !! The Merchants cry and wail because Babylon {the World} is getting Judged by God, burning grasses/trees, blood oceans, fish dying, 3-4 billion people die via the Seals and the Trumps, so the merchants are sad indeed.

                              Rev. 19 covers the full 7 Years, the Bride is in Heaven Marrying the Lamb, then we return with Jesus on White {Conquering} Horses to defeat THE BEAST on earth.

                              Rev.20 is the Judgment of the Martyrs under the Altar Chapter. Satan is locked in the Pit also.

                              Rev. 21 is the EVER AFTER & New Jerusalem chapters.

                              So the Chronological Order is there, but we have to know what chapters are a part of the order and what is not.

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