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  • Originally posted by angelmike View Post





    According to your judgment, I still cannot understand what God has called you for. You do, however, refer to faith that we must have if we want to do something. Faith is not a factor in true children of God. We can put faith into action in various ways, such as example; I work outside with a Telecom street cabinet. Rain was predicted to be on the way. I see the rain and know it's going to rain, but I have to finish the job. I ask God to hold back the work until we are done. I see that the rain clouds are packing together, but the rain is not poured. The Telecom person who is monitoring us is frightened and briefly informs us of the weather. He is later bewildered and does not understand how the clouds are packed, but no rain falls. The clouds are getting bigger, but no sign of rain. I tell him it will rain as soon as we are done. He looks at me funny and thinks I'm crazy. Left there, we got ready and the rain fell as I spoke. Now this is one of the faith cases I am talking about, but it still does not explain what my calling is to God. Therefore, I try to explain that there is a calling in everyone's life given to us by God. Sometimes it is superfluous and inadmissible that we try to bridge the calling of others that we do not deserve. For example, an evangelist cannot be a prophet if he is not called by God as a prophet. No matter what gift we desire. It is God's decision which gift He has given you.
    That is not a proper prayer, we might pray for protection from lighting, but its not proper to pray that rain hold off just for one person, the area might need the rain, that is way to much minutia for me. So I don't think on that level. I Preached for 30 plus years. We never lose our calling, but I am retired, but I think everything God has led me through {I haven't slept all night so my posts here and earlier may seem a bit jumbled, sorry about that} has led me to understand End Time Events well enough to write this book I am on a journey to write about the end times, the timelines, the way its all going to go down. I did {still have it, it might even be on this site also} a blog on Daniel 11 and 12 that names every King of Daniel 11 and how they came to power, etc. etc. etc. All because I got tired of not understanding that complicated chapter, and guess what, it led me to who the False Prophet is going to be {a Jewish High Priest} and who his TYPE was under Antiochus. While researching every King in the chapter, I ran across Jason a man who bribed Antiochus to become the High Priest of Israel, thereby having his Pious High Priest brother murdered. He then tried to Hellenize the Jews hence the name Jason because his real name was Yeshua.....Jesus; name was also Yeshua, Jesus is the Greek pronouncement , pretty much. it van be Jesus, Jason or Joshua. Anyway, it hit me, the Anti-Christ will have a partner in the False Prophet and so did his TYPE Antiochus, it was Jason.

    I will let you guys worry about titles and such, I don't get dragged down into the weeds on nonsensical stuff like that. I hear the Lord and I understand the word. People, IMHO, worry too much about trivial trivialities that don't mean anything, when I see things lie that really don't engage or look at them too deep. I don't need a MAN to tell me my calling or to explain it, I have been doing this 35 years, I hear the holy spirit very clearly. The semantics were where the Pharisees went of course. I will let others worry about the semantics. Meanwhile I will be digging out God;s truths like the 1260, 1290 and 1335 which basically everyone gets wrong.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
      Heads aren't kings or kingdoms. They are land where kingdoms are located.
      Is that so? Because I think they are kings or kingdoms.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post

        That is not a proper prayer, we might pray for protection from lighting, but its not proper to pray that rain hold off just for one person, the area might need the rain, that is way to much minutia for me. So I don't think on that level. I Preached for 30 plus years. We never lose our calling, but I am retired, but I think everything God has led me through {I haven't slept all night so my posts here and earlier may seem a bit jumbled, sorry about that} has led me to understand End Time Events well enough to write this book I am on a journey to write about the end times, the timelines, the way its all going to go down. I did {still have it, it might even be on this site also} a blog on Daniel 11 and 12 that names every King of Daniel 11 and how they came to power, etc. etc. etc. All because I got tired of not understanding that complicated chapter, and guess what, it led me to who the False Prophet is going to be {a Jewish High Priest} and who his TYPE was under Antiochus. While researching every King in the chapter, I ran across Jason a man who bribed Antiochus to become the High Priest of Israel, thereby having his Pious High Priest brother murdered. He then tried to Hellenize the Jews hence the name Jason because his real name was Yeshua.....Jesus; name was also Yeshua, Jesus is the Greek pronouncement , pretty much. it van be Jesus, Jason or Joshua. Anyway, it hit me, the Anti-Christ will have a partner in the False Prophet and so did his TYPE Antiochus, it was Jason.

        I will let you guys worry about titles and such, I don't get dragged down into the weeds on nonsensical stuff like that. I hear the Lord and I understand the word. People, IMHO, worry too much about trivial trivialities that don't mean anything, when I see things lie that really don't engage or look at them too deep. I don't need a MAN to tell me my calling or to explain it, I have been doing this 35 years, I hear the holy spirit very clearly. The semantics were where the Pharisees went of course. I will let others worry about the semantics. Meanwhile I will be digging out God;s truths like the 1260, 1290 and 1335 which basically everyone gets wrong.
        I was a young man of about 21plus when I was converted. I was particularly interested in the book of revelation, though I asked God for wisdom for his word, I was still ignorant. I had to learn and add the deed to the word. I loved doing Bible study and teaching myself so that I didn't have to be ignorant when I shared the word with someone. My beloved book was revelation, and I spent a lot of time enjoying the Bible. But, I had a problem and couldn't understand everything that was written, even though I had an idea of ​​what would happen. One day, I was writing about the book of revelation and studying the events I was trying to understand. Immediately the Holy Spirit speaks to me and says: if you have finished the part you are doing, the pen will dry up. I was surprised by the voice and wondered what God wanted to say to me. Now before I finished writing, I tried to put the voice to the test. I decided I was done writing, while I knew I wasn't done. The pen did not dry up. I wrote down the section I wanted to finish and to my own surprise, the pen dried up with the writing of the last alphabet. I paused and waited for the Lord's answer to why the pen should dry up. Then the Lord explained to me the following. I will understand revelation when the prophecy comes true. This is also exactly what Jesus warns about in the end times when the Antichrist sits in the temple and erects the abomination, we must flee, not ahead of time. So, I learned there are signs we have come to look at when these things happen that warn us. Explaining revelation is good, but many have also tried to explain revelation before, not knowing the technology change. We have an idea what will happen, however, some statements are difficult especially if it is not near the time of fulfillment. Yes, many want to write books and be more popular among the people. I learned to just write and share my opinion with others without any deviant behavior with affection as if I possessed all the wisdom and knowledge. If my writing is rejected, I don't feel bad about it. Who knows, maybe someday I'll understand like the guy who disagrees with me or vice versa.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

          Sorry, can't agree on those things.

          Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
          Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
          Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
          Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
          Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

          Sure sounds like the third heaven to me.
          I believe heaven to be as symbolic as all these others listed. Look at the items of the 1st few verses,
          According to what you are saying:
          the sun - is not really a sun
          the moon - is not really a moon
          the woman - is not really a woman
          crown of the stars - is not really a crown
          the red dragon - is not really a dragon
          the child - is not really a child
          stars - are not really stars
          heaven - but really is heaven

          So, of all of these that represent something else, why is heaven the only term that doesn't mean something else?


          As for me, I do not believe heaven in Rev 12 is God's heaven. Heaven in Rev 12 is simply the Mosaic church of Israel.

          So let me give my reasons. We can read in Job how that Satan came in to the worship area when Job offered sacrifices for his children. Satan came in there and was right in the middle of their worship. This is the heaven that Satan existed in. I have heard it said by preachers of old, that Satan sat in the seat of Moses.

          Under the Mosaic Law, there was nothing preventing Satan from being a part of their worship according to the way they served and worshipped God. Satan could come into the area where they made their sacrifices and there was no part of their worship that Satan did not have access to.

          Until Jesus was crucified, When he gave his life and was caught up to his throne, This ended the old Mosaic Law and brought in the new grace covenant.

          Satan was cast out of what he had access to, including the area of worship. The only way to worship God under the new grace covenant is in spirit and in truth. Jesus told the Woman at the well, that the day will come that God will seek those to worship him in spirit and in truth.



          The only way to come to God now is through his son through faith. Satan can not enter in thru this door because Jesus is that door.

          So I conclude, Satan was cast out of heaven by the Blood of the Lamb. But the heaven referred to here, was the Mosaic Church Worship. Satan will never be not a part of the spiritual body of Christ. But he was a part of that natural aspect under the Mosaic Law.


          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

          yes but that is speaking about humans that overcome Satan here on Earth through the blood of Christ. It's not how the angels defeated Satan.

          Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; [wB]and they loved not their lives unto the death[/B].

          Satan had been falsely accusing these Earthly people.


          .
          There is nothing else that can defeat Satan and cast him out into the earth, except for the blood of Jesus. The martyrs could not cast him out, the saints can not cast him out, the angels can not cast him out. Only Jesus can cast Satan out of the heaven that I mentioned above. But yes, we overcome Satan through the blood also. But it takes Christ to cast out Satan from Heaven.

          Rev 12:9
          And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

          I know you believe Satan was in God's heaven, but I have not found any scripture that says that he was there. Every one that I know of in the bible was a reference to the king of Babylon (Iasiah), or the King of Tyre (Jeremiah), and the 1st heaven or the worship area of the Mosaic Law (Rev 12).

          I know you disagree with this, but if you have any other references, let's discuss.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post

            That's not what I said at all, I said, as you quoted, the Holy Spirit leads us unto ALL TRUTH, thus we have to figure out why/where/when and how Satan is blocking us from these truths, its a natural thought process, when Satan is locked in the pit for 1000 years we or those humans on earth will not have to worry about being deceived, thus they will only sin via omission, not from willful sin via deception. THE POINT is the Holy Spirit leads us unto ALL TRUTHS but only if we hear His voice.

            If you read all my posts or maybe if you just caught the one post I am speaking about you might have heard my say this.....{since most don't read all the posts I will say it again, of course} I was called unto Prophecy as a young Christian in 1986, told the "Man of Sin is HERE" in a vision, and I discounted the VERY WEIRD New experience but then the next week I saw Jimmy Swaggart in a HUGE ARENA {Vision} speaking to like 10 people, within a week or two Swaggart had fallen from Grace God was like, I know it all, ignore Me at your own peril. So I perked up. I have preached the Gospel for nigh 35 years {retired now, but we never really retire} and about 4 or 5 years ago I asked God why there are so many understandings of Babylon, The Harlot, The Beast, the Rapture etc. etc. and I got this very CLEARLY....."Ron, you guys already know it all" and suddenly it hit me, God was saying we were/are just like the Pharisees in that we listen to "Men's Traditions" over God, thus we can't hear God's voice because we already UNDERSTAND these Prophetic books, when in reality, as YOUNG Christians we deferred to men's traditions because Prophecy was way over our heads. Those Men's Traditions take ROOT, and thus we are stuck in those positions via TUNNEL VISION.

            With the Gospels were were just like young kids asking God questions, and He would SHOW US.....With these Prophecies we were like.....WOW this is way too hard for me, let me see what Billy Bob and Sue thinks about this or let me read a book {take your pick} and thus we can't hear God's voice clearly. BUT......We can still hear His voice, we just have to TUNE OUT the things we learned along the way, is not God capable of teaching us ? Of course He is, but only if we let go of our Men's Traditions first !! And I started doing just that, I even even left my pre trib Rapture behind and allowed the Holy Spirit to lead me where He wanted to on that, and then Rev. 19 solved that issue for me, the Rapture was indeed Pre Trib after all, but that was my STARTING POINT because its so debated. But my real education came when I spent months writing and studying for a blog on "Babylon, the Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast". In that blog I was all finished, I posted it, then the Holy Spirit was like "Ron, that's WRONG !! Rome is not THAT CITY " {I had argued Rome was that city in Rev. 17:18}.God was like, what did John see on her forehead Ron? Babylon the Great NOT Rome !! So I had to change my blog which I had worked on for a while. You see, I had agreed to seek God's face on all things via Revelation and Daniel etc. All Prophesies and thus now I HEARD God's small still voice because in my heart of hearts I was OK with being WRONG, thus I could both hear and see things I couldn't before. That is MY POINT about the Holy Spirit leading us unto ALL TRUTHS......we have to be willing to be wrong,or we are not going to hear because men are full of pride, we have to overcome that pride of life Satan is using against us. Satan is crafty, He will use all his arsenal against us.

            So I don't claim to know it all, I just understand now how to hear when He leads me unto TRUTHS that I don't know, I just simply need to PUT OFF other men's understandings and ASK God what does this mean, guess what, God wants to teach us, we just have to ask him.......................Remember the scripture, You ASK but you ASK NOT because you ask that you may consume it upon your own lusts. Well Pride is like lusts, its just vanity instead. So we ask but we don't really ask God because WE ALREADY KNOW IT ALL !! But we don't actually know much at all in reality, we have to STEP BACK, and say God, I learned this from Men, I want to know the truth so instead off sticking with these ideas, SHOW ME Father. God will show us ALL THINGS, if we ask and humble ourselves. You conflated what I said in reality, I spoke factual truths, God leads us unto all truths, but I never said I know all truth else I would have to be God, I just understand how to hear Him on these things now AFTER not hearing Him on these Prophetic things COMPLETELY for 25 to 30 years, I mean I read and learned, but the deeper things that only God can reveal, the things He wouldn't give to us per se because the time wasn't right until the very end, which is NOW and that is why I sought it, I know the End Times are upon us, that was my first ever Vision, "The Man of Sin is Here". So I wanted to know these END TIME THINGS !! So I simply asked, and God showed my where/when/why and how to see these truths.

            I still think everyone on this board is asking for the Spirit to lead, yet we all have different points of view.
            This is the reason I believe that it is prudent to try to learn the different points of view.



            Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
            Lets say there are 100 clay pigeons at a Shooting Range/event and we are given 10 minutes to shoot and I shoot 25 percent and you shoot 33 percent {1/4 and 1/3} then basically you will shoot 33 and I will shoot 25, so out of the 100 on hand 58 will be shot and 42 will be left. Since we are speaking about the exact same time period, then the number is obviously about the full number on hand during that time period. So it will of course be 25 percent AND 33 percent of the total number of people alive on earth at the time the First Seal is broken on day 1261.So that total is 58 percent of all men living on earth. The Anti-Christ will kill all those who refuse to Worship him {1/4 it seems} as God AND all the Jews he can get at just because they are Jews and the 200 Million Angelic Army will kill 1/3 of all those who have taken the Mark of the Beast, which will be everybody who didn't get killed by the Anti-Christ, pretty much.


            In your example, I shot 25% of the 100 and then I shot 33% of something (100 or the 75 remaining clay pigeons) because you claim it is the same person in both cases.
            I don't think these prophecies are meant to be that confusing.
            I believe the repetition of similar visions helps to solve the confusion, especially in regard to the timing of many of the prophesied events.

            When I was led to the point of view that the Revelation, chapters 6-19 have the same story repeated 6 times (6 paths), just as the gospels are repeated 4 times; I was the only one I knew with that point of view. I have been testing that point of view for quite a while now and it has held up to scrutiny.

            Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
            The whole Revelation has already happened is just too easily disproved brother. I mean I did it somewhere last night via the Daniel 12:1-4 scriptures, which show the AoD troubles Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24 have to be an END TIMES EVENT, and we also SEE in Rev. 12 that Micheal STANDS UP at the END TIMES when the Jews go through these troubles. There are 100's of more scriptures that just make that theory null and void brother. I really don't get why people even go there tbh. Whereas the Rapture, though I clearly understand it, it was a MYSTERY via the Old Testament, so I can't fault men for not seeing what is at best vague, but the Revelation having happened 2000 years ago isn't even a close call or debatable to me, I truly don't get it, well I do, I think Satan is very, very crafty and he seeks to Deceive the Nations and the People on earth 24/7/365.
            I do not believe the whole Revelation has already happened.
            Why complain that I don't read your stuff when you misrepresent my understanding?
            Maybe it's just hard to remember everybody else's point of view?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 6paths View Post
              [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
              I agree that the sign of the son of man only happens when the GT is over.
              The GT is over when the earthquake occurs with the resurrection of the 2 witnesses.
              Almost. It ends when the 7th trump sounds which is a little while after the two prophets resurrect.


              I am not really sure where our differences are on this point.
              I guess it's just the ascension?
              I think so. The two prophets resurrect and rise into heaven prior to the 7th trump and sign of Christ's coming.




              That is why I surmised it would take 30 minutes.
              Plenty of time for everyone to witness.
              Too much time IMO. In the past I have thought heaven might be silent after Satan is cast out in the third trump so I tend to match the 7th seal with that trump.



              Since I believe that all of the vials of God's wrath are poured out beginning with the time of Rev 11:15, I do not know exactly when the rapture will take place.
              It will occur during the time of the 7th vial, near the end of the time (the 75 days) of God's wrath.
              I see it as Christ will leave heaven, the dead will rise and the living saints will change into immortal and then be raptured up to meet Christ as he is descending to the Earth.


              God is consistently shown to appear at the end of his period of wrath, not at the end of the GT.
              Christ said he will appear immediately after the GT:

              Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
              Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



              Why do you think that when everything else concerning them is in heaven?

              Rev 14:3 "
              And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."

              And they (the 144,000) sung in heaven.

              They are on the Earth. Only the harpers are in heaven and only the harpers are singing. It even says there are 24 of them.




              Why do you think the elders have harps in Rev 14?
              Because they will be playing music and singing a new song for the 144k to learn.


              Why do you think the timeframe is eternity?
              The language used matches language found in the eternity chp of Rev.





              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                Is that so? Because I think they are kings or kingdoms.
                The horns represent kings/kingdoms. Why would God use a separate analogy of a head the horns exist upon as more kings? Doesn't a horn/kingdom on a head make the head the land of the horn/kingdom?
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

                  I believe heaven to be as symbolic as all these others listed. Look at the items of the 1st few verses,
                  According to what you are saying:
                  the sun - is not really a sun
                  the moon - is not really a moon
                  the woman - is not really a woman
                  crown of the stars - is not really a crown
                  the red dragon - is not really a dragon
                  the child - is not really a child
                  stars - are not really stars
                  heaven - but really is heaven
                  [/QUOTE]

                  Some are symbolic but many are literal like there was a child born and the sun a and moon are literal, they are just used in an artistic sense. Stars are angels in scripture and the dragon is just satan so those are well known analogies but speak of literal persons.


                  Heaven in Rev 12 is simply the Mosaic church of Israel.
                  How can heaven represent something like that? Doesn't make any sense to me.


                  So I conclude, Satan was cast out of heaven by the Blood of the Lamb.
                  If that was so, then it would have happened before the ascension of the man child plus there wouldn't have been a war and Michael and his angels wouldn't need to be involved.



                  The martyrs could not cast him out, the saints can not cast him out, the angels can not cast him out.
                  The angels can and do and even one single angel is able to bind Satan and imprison him in the pit. These angels have God's permission and ability to do these things. IMO the blood of Christ is for humans regarding the forgiveness of sins not for forcing Satan out of a place or into a place.




                  Rev 12:9
                  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

                  I know you believe Satan was in God's heaven, but I have not found any scripture that says that he was there. Every one that I know of in the bible was a reference to the king of Babylon (Iasiah), or the King of Tyre (Jeremiah), and the 1st heaven or the worship area of the Mosaic Law (Rev 12).

                  I know you disagree with this, but if you have any other references, let's discuss.
                  Well it says he is in heaven accusing the saints. What other heaven would that be? The first heaven is the sky, not much good making accusations there, and same for outer space and the 2nd heaven....only the third heaven makes sense to level accusations because the God, Christ and the angels and the souls of the dead saints are there.


                  Mat_24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

                  If this is the third heaven where angels are doesn't it make sense it is the same heaven Michael and his angels fight Satan and his angels and cast them out and they are never allowed to return back into heaven?


                  Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
                  Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

                  Clearly heaven is a place where angels dwell.

                  Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

                  No reason to think it's a different heaven NJ comes from.



                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post



                    Some are symbolic but many are literal like there was a child born and the sun a and moon are literal, they are just used in an artistic sense. Stars are angels in scripture and the dragon is just satan so those are well known analogies but speak of literal persons.


                    This is the way I interpret these:
                    The child represented Jesus, but not as a child, but a full grown man.
                    The Sun was representing the woman's Father (Isaac and Abraham) - According to the dream of Joseph
                    The Moon was representing the woman's Mother (Rachel and Sarah) - According to the dream of Joseph
                    The crown represents the 12 tribes of Israel - According to the dream of Joseph
                    The stars represent the saints
                    The red dragon represents Satan

                    I don't think any in Rev 12 are literal, but they all have symbolic meaning.


                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                    If that was so, then it would have happened before the ascension of the man child plus there wouldn't have been a war and Michael and his angels wouldn't need to be involved.

                    Michael and the angels are symbolic also. Michael is symbolic of Christ and the angels are symbolic of the 12 apostles. They defeat him by Christs death. His blood and sacrifice ends the Mosaic Law. Therefore, Satan is cast out.

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                    The angels can and do and even one single angel is able to bind Satan and imprison him in the pit. These angels have God's permission and ability to do these things. IMO the blood of Christ is for humans regarding the forgiveness of sins not for forcing Satan out of a place or into a place.

                    The angels in Revelation is sometimes Christ. He is the angel that puts on foot upon land and the other on sea and swares that time should be no more.


                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                    Well it says he is in heaven accusing the saints. What other heaven would that be? The first heaven is the sky, not much good making accusations there, and same for outer space and the 2nd heaven....only the third heaven makes sense to level accusations because the God, Christ and the angels and the souls of the dead saints are there.

                    But the saints he is accusing are here on earth. The heaven referred to is the Mosaic Church. The fate of those that are dead are already sealed. He has no influence over them.

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                    Mat_24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


                    The teachings of Jesus is plain and not written in symbolic images. This is really the 3rd heaven that Jesus was referring to.

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                    If this is the third heaven where angels are doesn't it make sense it is the same heaven Michael and his angels fight Satan and his angels and cast them out and they are never allowed to return back into heaven?


                    I am merely saying, I do not believe this is literal, but symbolic and is not literally the 3rd Heaven


                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                    Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
                    Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

                    Clearly heaven is a place where angels dwell.


                    But I do not believe it is literal, but is all referring to the defeat of Power of Satan. Jesus has bound him taking his power away. Until he is lose from the pit. Then he will have much power for 42 months.

                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                    Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

                    No reason to think it's a different heaven NJ comes from.

                    The visons take on a different form at this point in chapter 21. John sees things as they are.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

                      This is the way I interpret these:
                      The child represented Jesus, but not as a child, but a full grown man.
                      But he was born as a child.



                      The stars represent the saints
                      Is that provable? I know stars are angels in scripture but not sure I have seen saints as stars.




                      The red dragon represents Satan

                      I don't think any in Rev 12 are literal, but they all have symbolic meaning.

                      Yet Jesus is still Jesus and I see nothing that changes heaven to be something else.

                      Michael and the angels are symbolic also.
                      This is a bit too far out there for me...Michael clearly is Michael.



                      But the saints he is accusing are here on earth.
                      That's because he accuses them in heaven similar to what he said about Job while in heaven.


                      But I do not believe it is literal, but is all referring to the defeat of Power of Satan. Jesus has bound him taking his power away. Until he is lose from the pit. Then he will have much power for 42 months.
                      Well, when he is freed from the pit, the 42 months had been over for a very long time. All he has is the little season where his armies fail to even enter Jerusalem, unlike the 42months where the AC and armies occupy Jerusalem...Rev 11 and 13.




                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                      • Originally posted by angelmike View Post

                        I was a young man of about 21plus when I was converted. I was particularly interested in the book of revelation, though I asked God for wisdom for his word, I was still ignorant. I had to learn and add the deed to the word. I loved doing Bible study and teaching myself so that I didn't have to be ignorant when I shared the word with someone. My beloved book was revelation, and I spent a lot of time enjoying the Bible. But, I had a problem and couldn't understand everything that was written, even though I had an idea of ​​what would happen. One day, I was writing about the book of revelation and studying the events I was trying to understand. Immediately the Holy Spirit speaks to me and says: if you have finished the part you are doing, the pen will dry up. I was surprised by the voice and wondered what God wanted to say to me. Now before I finished writing, I tried to put the voice to the test. I decided I was done writing, while I knew I wasn't done. The pen did not dry up. I wrote down the section I wanted to finish and to my own surprise, the pen dried up with the writing of the last alphabet. I paused and waited for the Lord's answer to why the pen should dry up. Then the Lord explained to me the following. I will understand revelation when the prophecy comes true.
                        But did you get what God actually meant by this ? It didn't mean that God doesn't want to show His people before time what the book of Revelation/Daniel etc. etc means, it meant God has not picked you for that chore, thus you were wasting your time on a wrong endeavor. I was picked for this purpose as my very first vision was me running with two kids from a bunch of evil people, I hid by the side of a house behind some hedge bushes and then I heard this LOUD BOOMING Voice from Heaven say the "Man of Sin is Here" but I still ignored this { never had a vision before } until my Vision of Jimmy Swaggart in the HUGE AUDITORIUM. God uses us all in different ways, some are legs, some eyes, some fingers etc. etc. Just because God told you basically this, HEY...stop it already, this is not your calling, doesn't mean He doesn't do just the opposite with other people. See my point ?

                        This is also exactly what Jesus warns about in the end times when the Antichrist sits in the temple and erects the abomination, we must flee, not ahead of time. So, I learned there are signs we have come to look at when these things happen that warn us. Explaining revelation is good, but many have also tried to explain revelation before, not knowing the technology change. We have an idea what will happen, however, some statements are difficult especially if it is not near the time of fulfillment. Yes, many want to write books and be more popular among the people. I learned to just write and share my opinion with others without any deviant behavior with affection as if I possessed all the wisdom and knowledge. If my writing is rejected, I don't feel bad about it. Who knows, maybe someday I'll understand like the guy who disagrees with me or vice versa.
                        We don't flee, the Church is in Heaven, the Jews who live in Judea Flee brother !! And Jesus doesn't say the Anti-Christ is in the Temple, he says that which OUGHT NOT stands in the most holy place. By reading Daniel 12 we can understand that the 1290 Event of the AoD can not be something brought about by the Anti-Christ, because it happens 30 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast. The 1290 is 1290 days until ALL THESE WONDERS END {Second Coming} just like the 1260 {time, times and half} is 1260 days until all these wonders end via the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Notice in verse 8 Daniel asks the SAME QUESTION as the Angel asked the Man in Linen {Jesus} via verse 6:


                        Dan. 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

                        11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

                        So Daniel asks the exact same question the Angel asked Jesus {Man in Linen} and thus why would the answers be ANY DIFFERENT ? We know that the 1260 is when the holy peoples or Jews get Conquered by the Anti-Christ and Jesus expressly tells us it will be 1260 days from THAT EVENT until all these Wonders End or are finished !! He means by the Second Coming of course. So the question Daniel asks in verse 8 has the same connotation as verse 6 did. When will these things end O Lord ? And thus Jesus' answer must be a TIME FRAME from an EVENT until his Second Coming ends all these things/wonders !!

                        Now lets step back and look at this again, I told you God gives me these things, its like I see things that I can't even explain to start with, like Einstein saw the Theory of Relativity because of a pencil and a Grandfather Clock {if I am not mistaken}. So I see them, them I am like, lets test it, it makes no sense or it goes against all the thoughts of many on this {though I admit people are all over the place on this anyway}. So the 1290 is 1290 days until Jesus Returns and the 1335 is 1335 days until Jesus returns, does that make any sense ? Yes it does. How could the 1290 be 30 days after the 1260 and/or 1290 days after the 1260, thus 30 days into the 1000 year reign. God has perfect Symmetry, He doesn't do things like that. Also, the 1290 an't happen 30 days AFTER the 1260, the Jews can't flee 30 days after they have been Conquered, that makes no sense whatsoever.

                        The 1290 is THE SACRIFICE Jesus being TAKEN AWAY from the 1/3 of the Jews who Repented AND the False Prophet {High Priest} places an IMAGE of the Beast {See Rev. 13 it clearly says he does this} in the Temple 30 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ comes to power or Conquers Jerusalem to become THE BEAST at the 1260 Event. This also allows the Jews who repented a TIME FRAME to escape in, a 30 day window !! God is all knowing, would God not give the Jews a head start with his SIGN to Flee Judea ? Of course He would. You see MEN'S TRADITIONS have the 1290 as being by the Anti-Christ, Jesus doesn't say that, he just says that which OUGHT NOT stands in the holy place, seems like its an IMAGE, he doesn't say he stands but THAT which ought not !! Rev. 13 says the False Prophet places an IMAGE of the Beast in the Temple, so all signs point to the False Prophet High Priest TAKING AWAY the Sacrifice {Jesus} and placing the IMAGE of the Beast into the Temple, Now looking back to Jason the High Priest who tried to Hellenize the Jews it all makes sense, Jason was a TYPE False Prophet just like Antiochus was a TYPE False Prophet and they were ruling at the SAME TIME which is another TYPE unto itself.

                        So what is the BLESSING of the 1335 which comes BEFORE the 1290 and 1260 Events ? Well one of my Favorite scriptures tells us what it is.

                        Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

                        So Elijah {Two-witnesses} come back BEFORE the Day of the {1260} Lord starts, they return at the 1335 Event. Which is 75 days BEFORE the 1260 Event and 45 days BEFORE the 1290 Event. Now their deaths coming BEFORE the Beast dies make sense. They both have ORDAINED OFFICES on earth for 1260 days, the Two-witnesses show up 75 Days before the Anti-Christ becomes THE BEAST at the 1260 Event, thus they must also DIE 75 days before the Beast dies, and they do, at the 2nd Woe vs, the Beast dying at the 7th Vial !! So it all fits to a tee, at EVERY ANGLE that is how we know something is of God !! Amen. It never made sense to me why the Jews would flee AFTER the Beast Conquered them, and you know what, THEY DON'T. They flee 30 days before he becomes THE BEAST !!

                        Some men are called to do certain things, some are called to do other things.
                        Last edited by Revelation Man; Jan 25th 2020, 06:16 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by 6paths View Post
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                          I still think everyone on this board is asking for the Spirit to lead, yet we all have different points of view.
                          This is the reason I believe that it is prudent to try to learn the different points of view.
                          We can learn different points of view, we can't allow way out there ideas to go unchallenged. Its like Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church needs to be challenged. Them believing weird things must be challenged, not the way they live per se. {unless they have many wives which most Mormons don't now, but Joseph Smith did, so the roots were evil}

                          In your example, I shot 25% of the 100 and then I shot 33% of something (100 or the 75 remaining clay pigeons) because you claim it is the same person in both cases.
                          I don't think these prophecies are meant to be that confusing.
                          I believe the repetition of similar visions helps to solve the confusion, especially in regard to the timing of many of the prophesied events.

                          When I was led to the point of view that the Revelation, chapters 6-19 have the same story repeated 6 times (6 paths), just as the gospels are repeated 4 times; I was the only one I knew with that point of view. I have been testing that point of view for quite a while now and it has held up to scrutiny.
                          Jesus explained why he spoke in Riddles, so that answers itself. Rev. 6-19 doesn't really repeat itself so much as it is DIFFERENT STORIES from the SAME TIME PERIODS.

                          Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age and 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened.

                          Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, and 15&16 are the Judgment Chapters, even though 15 is about Heaven I include it here because they are readying the Vials of God's Wrath.

                          Most of the other chapters start with the First Seal Opening in ch. 6. The reason you can't see it imho, is your idea of the Seals being opened already is too important to you. Don't take that wrong, men are prideful creatures, we have to overcome this, we are living in Sin Nature of course. Pride is sin.

                          Rev 10 is a flash forward to the end thus time stops or shall be no more.

                          Rev. 11 is all about the 1260 day ministry of the Two-Witnesses, if you read my post above you can see why they SHOW UP 75 days before the Beast and Die 75 days before the Beast dies.

                          Rev. 12 is Satan being kicked out of Heaven on day 1261 with the 6th Seal being opened.

                          Rev. 13 is about the Anti-Christ coming to power as THE BEAST at the First Seal. He also represents the other Three Horses and the 5th Seal Martyrs are of his doing all over 42 months. White represent Conquering, which is why Jesus rides a White Horse also in Rev. 19. The Beast CONQUERS for 42 Months.

                          Rev. 14 is THE HARVEST chapter that covers 7 years. It shows the Wheat {Israel} and the Tares {Wicked}. Then in a Soliloquy of sorts we are shown in verse 14 the Rapture by Jesus.

                          Rev. 17 is FALSE RELIGION {Harlot Religions} being Judged, the Anti-Christ DESTROYS Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. all Religions so that he can be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !!

                          Rev. 18 is Babylon {This Wicked World} being Judged by God over a 42 month period of time. The Seal, Trump and Vial Judgments DESTROY Babylon.

                          Rev. 19 like Rev. 14 covers the full 7 Years, we see the Church in Heaven BEFORE she Marries the Lamb, then after we Marry the Lamb we go to the Marriage Supper {Armageddon on earth}

                          Rev. 20 is the Judgment of the Martyrs and of Satan....Rev. 21 and 22 is the Ever After AND the New Jerusalem.

                          So I agree, it covers the same time frame, but not for the reasons some seem to say. It has an order to it via THE JUDGMENTS then we get Parenthetical Citation Chapters that are like HEADLINE EVENTS that happen during the time period being mentioned. In other words it would be like a Headline that read BLACK DEATH in the 1300's or Holy Crusades etc. etc. Its just pointing us to EVENTS within EVENTS so to speak. Like a chapter with a title, then two or three sub titles in it along the way.

                          I do not believe the whole Revelation has already happened.
                          Why complain that I don't read your stuff when you misrepresent my understanding?
                          Maybe it's just hard to remember everybody else's point of view?
                          Nothing past ch. 4 has happened yet. We are in chapters 2 and 3 the Church Age, that is why they are called the THINGS WHICH ARE !! Present tense.

                          I am not complaining at all, I just switched midstream from referencing something to deciding to just post the thought instead. However, if I reply to someones post, I try to read the post, not just make my own points. This is why I know a lot of these ideas better than the people who post them, I have seen these arguments for 30 plus years now.

                          Therein lies my Frustration, the Church should have ONE POINT OF VIEW if it comes from God, not many, a divided Church is a weak church. God Bless.
                          Last edited by Revelation Man; Jan 25th 2020, 06:25 PM.

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                          • [QUOTE=ewq1938;n2704811]
                            Christ said he will appear immediately after the GT:

                            Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
                            Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                            Here is our difference. I see Matt 24:29 as a 4 step process with only the first part happening immediately.
                            1 Immediately the sun, moon, start event happens.
                            2 Then, the 2 witnesses rise into heaven. My 30 minute process.
                            3 Then shall all the tribes mourn - starts during the 30 minute ascension in Jerusalem, but takes some time to spread around the earth
                            4 Then, after a global time of repentance and nearly the full time of the period of God's wrath, the whole world shall see the Son of man (Jesus is seen as much as 75 days later).

                            When and where do you see the harpers in Rev 15:2-3.
                            Are they on earth with the harpers of Rev 14?
                            Are they in heaven before, during, or after the harpers of Rev 14?
                            How do these harpers differ from those in Rev 14?
                            Are these people of heavenly beings?

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                            • Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post

                              Rev. 12 is Satan being kicked out of Heaven on day 1261 with the 6th Seal being opened.
                              Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. You say satan is being kicked out by the sixth seal, really? Do you think revelation is like a puzzle? If you can, explain.

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                              • [QUOTE=6paths;n2704854]
                                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                                Christ said he will appear immediately after the GT:

                                Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
                                Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                                Here is our difference. I see Matt 24:29 as a 4 step process with only the first part happening immediately.
                                1 Immediately the sun, moon, start event happens.
                                2 Then, the 2 witnesses rise into heaven. My 30 minute process.
                                Don't they rise up before any of those things?

                                Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
                                Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
                                Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
                                The Seventh Trumpet
                                Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
                                Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
                                Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
                                Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
                                Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.




                                When and where do you see the harpers in Rev 15:2-3.
                                The harpers are in heaven.


                                Are they on earth with the harpers of Rev 14?
                                The harpers in both chapters are in haven not on the Earth. The 144k are shown on the Earth with Christ in Rev 14.


                                Are they in heaven before, during, or after the harpers of Rev 14?
                                You have been asking about harpers so I am not clear who the "they" is here.

                                How do these harpers differ from those in Rev 14?
                                Harpers sing two songs in Rev 15, both are named.
                                In Rev 14 the song is new and the name is not mentioned.

                                Are these people of heavenly beings?
                                What does that mean?


                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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