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  • #31
    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

    I came to the understanding that the seals weren't opened in chronological order.
    To think the seals are not totally not chronological is nonsense now perhaps you would agree that the first four seals are opened together but the 5th, 6th, and 7th do follow after the first four. See my post below.


    IMO one seal matches one trump so the 7th seal would have to be speaking of something happening in one of the other trumps.
    Then this would mean no trumpets would sound after the 7th seal, right?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

      That's low. Play nicely haha
      Hes just mad cause I stopped replying to his posts.......hes all over the place so I see it as wasting both our time.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by angelmike View Post

        Wow! two second comings, are you sure?
        Ahhhh........no, I just put the 7 year diagram on top and bottom where I didn't go off to far from one end to the other. Left to Right is the timeline, not top to bottom.

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        • #34
          The seals must be in chronological order...…..Let's work back.

          7th seal - I hope we know this is the last to be opened.

          6th seal - This would happen just before the 7th due to the signs which bring forth the second coming.

          5th seal - This would have to happen just before the 6th seal, why? Two reasons, first we see that there were previously folks killed for their testimony so it could not be the first seal as there would not have been a previous. And we do see folks being killed by the 4th horseman. Second the little season. Like the trumpets the seals will get shorter and more intense before the second coming as it is likened unto a woman in labor. "Little" season would be a time less than the previous four seals. Furthermore this little season is the time of the little horn which must follow after the first four as it comes up out of the 4th beast (seal). Note the fourth seal we have a rider and the Hell follows.

          8
          And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

          1-4 seals - Now it is very possible that these seals are opened all together at one time which I believe to be the case. As pointed out the fourth seal would have to be just before the 5th as this is when we see folks killed which is referenced in the 5th seal thereby the fourth could not be the first opened if they are not opened all together.

          The reason I think the first four are opened together is that we see four which have control over the earth, the fourth is said to in charge of 1/4 so would not the other three parts be controlled by the other 3 horseman (kings). So in total all these four would rise up together and form the fourth kingdom upon the earth. In reality the first four seals, are the lion, bear, leopard, beast, the 5th seal being the control of the little horn which comes out of the 4th beast.




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          • #35
            Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

            Sure the OD is a little back and forth, especially Luke 21. Nevertheless the OD is not deliberately numbered 1 to 7.

            Yes I get that these were just 7 seals on a scroll, but as each was opened, 7 consecutive visions were seen. Is your view impossible? I'm not saying that.

            Is your view unlikely, definitely. Even though the seals could have been haphazardly opened, the visions are sequential. They start with 4 horsemen, end with the patience of the saints, the second coming, and 30 minutes silence (could signify completion).

            The numbering signifies sequence, as does context. You can't prove your view, I'm saying I guess it's possible, but not likely. There's not much consensus, maybe a bit, leave it there?
            Some last thoughts. The 6th seal speaks of the second coming but it can't be happening at that time because we know Christ returns at the 7th trump, called the last Trump by Paul. So we have 1-7 trumps and Christ returning but in the seals we don't have Christ returning in the last seal so there is something off. Either the seals only match 6 of the trumps and then has this extra seal speaking of silence after the second coming or it's as I see them, that the seals all match one trump each but aren't opened in chronological order meaning the silence in heaven does not happen after the second coming but before it.

            And as you also said, we know the OD wasn't given in perfect chronology either so I think that is also done in similar way in the seals. Only the trumps and vials are presented in chronological order which are actions that take place whereas the seals and OD are prophecies or glimpses of future events and simply presented like a puzzle out of order...mainly with the last two seals. I also think the horses are given out of order.
            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

              Then this would mean no trumpets would sound after the 7th seal, right?
              No, the trumps aren't even given to angels until after the 7th seal is opened. That means all trumps sound after the last seal.
              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

                I do acknowledge your possibility but I tend towards using Occams Razor. Let's just stick with the simpler more prima facie interpretation.

                I believe that if God specifically numbers events 1 to 7, they are designed to show a chronological order. In this way we differ on methodology, please also see my post to ewq.
                I don't think that follows, although I appreciate your congenial attitude. A set of 7, or the number 7, does not simply refer to a chronological *interpretation.* It could just as simply refer to the chronological sequence in which John saw the revelation. In other words, we should bear no illusions that John received each trumpet vision in *his own* chronological sequence. In his own experience, one vision may have happened at 12:00, another at 12:05, and another at 12:10, for example. The fact that the narrative has John experiencing these visions in sequence in no way translates, *obviously,* into a chronological *interpretation!*

                When the narrative indicates that John saw something "next," or "after these things," it is simply saying that he would see things next in his own personal experience. It was the order in which he saw the visions, but not necessarily the order in which the visions will be fulfilled historically.

                There is no "Occam's Razor" here. What is clear and certain is that if there are 7 trumpets shown to John in sequence, then he certainly saw them sequentially in his *own personal experience.". But that is just a chronology of John's own experience. That is only the chronology in which the set of 7 are given to John. In no way is it apparent that this translates into a chronological or sequential *interpretation,* as if each successive seal, trumpet, or bowl must take place in history successively, one after another. In fact, the obvious evidence is to the contrary, as I've shown.

                To give another example, it is obvious that John receives the 3 visions--the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls--in John's own chronology. That is, at one time he receives the 7 seals revelation. At another time--later--he receives the 7 trumpets revelation. And then, in continuing sequence, he receives the 3rd revelation of the 7 bowls. In no way does the fact John receives these visions sequentially *in his own personal experience* translate into an interpretation requiring a similar chronological sequence!

                Can you imagine the 6th seal, bringing us to the Lamb's Day of Wrath, the 7th Trumpet bringing us to the Kingdom of God, and the 7th bowl taking us to the completion of the age, all taking place in chronological sequence simply because John receives each vision at different times in sequence? It would require that the Day of Wrath precedes, historically, the coming of the Kingdom, which in turn precedes the End of the Age! It doesn't make sense.

                Neither is it obvious that when John sees each trumpet, one through seven, they must necessarily be fulfilled in history chronologically, one through seven. It is only *in John's experience* that he sees them in sequence, which does not mean that their interpretation requires a like sequence!

                The same goes for the seals and the bowls. Why should we not, for example, see the 3rd and 4th bowls as fulfilled at the same time? The plagues of Egypt were certainly sequential, but we're talking here about apocalyptic fulfillment--not the Egyptian Exodus! It is only sequential that John sees each vision, one after another. This does not necessarily indicate an historical sequence. It only indicates that each event must be treated separately, for emphasis.

                Sure, there will be some obvious chronological sequences given following the order of the narrative. For example, the 7th seal is going to contain some things, like the 7th trumpet, that will follow, historically, the opening of the 1st seal. But it is the context that dictates when each event will take place--not the order in which John saw each successive vision! Are you really to believe that the 1st trumpet, contained in the 7th seal, must follow, historically, the opening of the 6th seal? The 6th seal takes us to the end of the age--the day of the Lamb's Wrath. But the 7th seal contains the 1st 6 trumpets, some of which precede the day of Christ's Wrath!

                Rev 6.12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
                15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”


                Rev 8.1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
                2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them...
                Rev 9.1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.


                So you see, the 6th seal takes us to the day of Christ's Wrath, the end of the age. And yet in time John saw the 7th seal opened later, containing the 5th trumpet, which clearly precedes the end of the age and the Lamb's day of Wrath. So the order in which John saw these visions, in order of his own personal history, is different from the chronology of the history in which these things will be fulfilled. It is not at all "Occam's Razor" to see John's own history as simultaneous with the fulfillment of these things in history. The order in which John saw things is different from the historical order in which these visions will be fulfilled. That is much more apparent to me!

                No, it's obvious to me that we are talking here about 2 very different chronological sequences--one, the sequence in which John received these visions, which is the chronological order in which John saw the Revelation, and two, the actual chronological sequence of the *interpretations* of these visions. I would argue that many of the visions refer to the same events, and as such, there are overlapping visions, prolepses, and flashbacks.

                This all indicates that John's order of seeing the visions has nothing to do with an exact chronological correlation of their fulfillment in history. When the narrative says that John saw a succeeding vision "after this," it is only saying that John was to view another vision in his own personal experience. It didn't have a thing to do with saying that the next vision will be fulfilled in historical sequence! When the Revelation says that there is "silence in heaven for half an hour," it is not at all implying that there will be a literal half hour in the sequence of events about to transpire. Rather, it just means that in John's visions he is given to note the gravity of the visions he is about to experience next. I trust you will know what I mean?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by randyk View Post

                  No, it's obvious to me that we are talking here about 2 very different chronological sequences--one, the sequence in which John received these visions, which is the chronological order in which John saw the Revelation, and two, the actual chronological sequence of the *interpretations* of these visions. I would argue that many of the visions refer to the same events, and as such, there are overlapping visions, prolepses, and flashbacks.

                  This all indicates that John's order of seeing the visions has nothing to do with an exact chronological correlation of their fulfillment in history. When the narrative says that John saw a succeeding vision "after this," it is only saying that John was to view another vision in his own personal experience. It didn't have a thing to do with saying that the next vision will be fulfilled in historical sequence! When the Revelation says that there is "silence in heaven for half an hour," it is not at all implying that there will be a literal half hour in the sequence of events about to transpire. Rather, it just means that in John's visions he is given to note the gravity of the visions he is about to experience next. I trust you will know what I mean?
                  These ideas just lead to confusion and a total loss of understanding of what we, his servants are supposed to know about and be prepared for. Revelation 1:1-3

                  All the other prophesies throughout the Bible are 'a little here a little there', but Revelation does provide a sequence for us. Saying that it doesn't is tantamount to rewriting Revelation. Not advisable!

                  The first Five Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. Revelation 5:7 The world HAS experienced wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters aplenty. In fact, any worse and mankind would have been wiped out.
                  The Fifth Seal of the martyrs proves the sequence, as all the martyrs since Stephen have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven.
                  But we await the Sixth Seal, that Jesus will open at the moment Iran and its Islamic allies attempt to destroy Israel. As prophesied and vividly described in over 100 prophesies.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

                    I still fail to see how people deny the second coming wording in the 6th seal of Rev 6:

                    12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

                    The events of the second coming are listed there, the great earthquake, a day of wrath. Jesus appears. The leaders of the world hide from Jesus. The stars fall, the heavens recede like a scroll.

                    We are seeing the second coming in that wording, there is no reason to place the 7 trumpets and bowls after the 6th seal.
                    DurbanDude, you're right.
                    Love is patient, love is kind. . .

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                      Some last thoughts. The 6th seal speaks of the second coming but it can't be happening at that time because we know Christ returns at the 7th trump, called the last Trump by Paul. So we have 1-7 trumps and Christ returning but in the seals we don't have Christ returning in the last seal so there is something off. Either the seals only match 6 of the trumps and then has this extra seal speaking of silence after the second coming or it's as I see them, that the seals all match one trump each but aren't opened in chronological order meaning the silence in heaven does not happen after the second coming but before it.
                      I see the possibility that the 4 horsemen of the first 4 seals deal with a vast time frame. The wording of the 6th seal is clearly the second coming due to multiple matching events with second coming events. The 7th seal only involves a further 30 minutes, being therefore the same day as the second coming.
                      ​​​​

                      The 7 trumpets are a shorter timeframe, basically covering the GT.

                      The 7 bowls of wrath cover the final months of the GT.

                      All 3 sequences end at the second coming.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by pdun459 View Post

                        DurbanDude, you're right.
                        The Sixth Seal and the Return of Jesus do not match. They are 2 separate events, years apart.
                        Why would Jesus destroy the world that He has just come to reign over? He only kills the army of Satan and chains him up.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Keraz View Post

                          These ideas just lead to confusion and a total loss of understanding of what we, his servants are supposed to know about and be prepared for. Revelation 1:1-3

                          All the other prophesies throughout the Bible are 'a little here a little there', but Revelation does provide a sequence for us. Saying that it doesn't is tantamount to rewriting Revelation. Not advisable!

                          The first Five Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. Revelation 5:7 The world HAS experienced wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters aplenty. In fact, any worse and mankind would have been wiped out.
                          The Fifth Seal of the martyrs proves the sequence, as all the martyrs since Stephen have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven.
                          But we await the Sixth Seal, that Jesus will open at the moment Iran and its Islamic allies attempt to destroy Israel. As prophesied and vividly described in over 100 prophesies.
                          I don't think, brother, that you've taken the time to hear my argument. It can seem daunting, or confusing, if you don't read and reread, because I'm arguing against the way people try to read this in a more modern sense. Biblical visions are sometimes repetitive, and certainly not always sequential. I don't at all agree that the 5th seal follows, chronologically, the 1st 4 seals. Martyrdom happened from the time Jesus himself was crucified. All of these things began in the Early Church simultaneously. There is no effort here, with John, to separate these events into timed categories. They are simply a list of various things that largely happen simultaneously. Obviously, there will be some chronological development with each event.

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                          • #43
                            All these efforts at establishing a firm time frame beg the question: Is any of this designed, by God, to give us much of a chronology at all? Is God trying to give us a Prophetic Map of History, as if this was some kind of crystal ball?

                            I don't think we are given to read this like Nostradamus. Rather, the visions are many, and the orders, or sequences, given, simply show us a listing of events that point towards the Day of God's Wrath, and towards the Salvation of the Church.

                            So I maintain the same perspective. And I would ask you: Can you not see that the chronology of time in which John sees these visions is different from the chronology in which these listed events are fulfilled? The narrative has its own time frame, which is, I think, way different from establishing a chronological sequence for events that are to take place. Am I the only one who can see this?

                            It is clear to me that there is a time element involved in the book of Revelation. There are the things that have been happening since the Early Church--largely the signs of the Olivet Discourse. And there is the 3.5 years of Antichristian rule at the end of the Age. At the end of the age, at an undetermined time *past* the 3.5 years, Christ will return in judgment. This is Armageddon. And then will follow the Millennium, the Kingdom of Christ on earth.

                            But many of the events listed in the seals, trumpets, and bowls, do not have a necessary chronological sequence to them. They are just a listing of things that explain why Wrath is coming and why Salvation is coming.

                            Saying that something will happen "next," or "after these things" this happens, or there's "half an hour" in heaven, simply indicate a narrative for the vision, and not for the interpretation of these visions. John is seeing this 1st, and then this, and then he's taken up to heaven to this next, and then there is this explosion of imagery, indicating something to happen next.

                            This is all decor to provide for the narrative, and not an order for the interpretation of these visions. To say John will see this "next" is only to say that one vision follows upon another--not that there will be 2 historical events in sequence.

                            Let me make this completely clear, if I can. Randy saw vision #1, in which the sky opened up to reveal the Son of Man. And then an angel came down from heaven and told Randy, "Wait for half and hour, and then you will see vision #2. This will show what a great catastrophe is about to take place. Though the 1st vision is the same, the 2nd vision will show what a catastrophe it will be." And then the 2nd vision took place, and Randy saw the heavens fold up with explosions going off in cities around the world.

                            In this scenario, both visions represent the same historical event. It's just that the 1st vision shows a single element, whereas the 2nd vision is embellished with the tension of a time of thoughtfulness, to prepare for the greater details of the catastrophe of this event.

                            My perspective is difficult to understand only because I think it has been interpreted wrongly for so long and by so many, the majority of whom are less steeped in the subject of biblical prophecy. Visions are very flexible, and should not always be tied, I think, to an historical sequence. Dreams and visions are sometimes repetitive in Scriptures.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

                              I see the possibility that the 4 horsemen of the first 4 seals deal with a vast time frame. The wording of the 6th seal is clearly the second coming due to multiple matching events with second coming events. The 7th seal only involves a further 30 minutes, being therefore the same day as the second coming.
                              ​​​​

                              The 7 trumpets are a shorter timeframe, basically covering the GT.

                              The 7 bowls of wrath cover the final months of the GT.

                              All 3 sequences end at the second coming.
                              My view is very similar to this. But I would reiterate: to see 7 visions in the form of 7 trumpets does not necessarily indicate a sequential order with respect to historical time. That is, the 1st trumpet does not necessarily represent one period of time, and the 2nd trumpet represent a following period of time, etc. All 7 trumpet visions could, conceivably, represent the same general period of time, as you suggested.

                              They may all represent the very end of the age, when Christ is about to come or actually does come. All 7 events may take place at that time or directly before that time. It might be as if a scroll is laid out, with each section read consecutively, but each section representing the same period of time. Each successive section may add new details about that period of time, rather than refer to a future time.

                              I agree that the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls all seem to lead up to Christ's Coming and the end of the age. They are, in a sense, repeat visions designed to add different perspectives and new details, or new issues. Basically, all this explains why Christ is coming in wrath, and why he comes to save his people. And it explains how the world, in its rebellion against God's word, comes under judgment at the time of Christ's coming.

                              I also agree that some parts, such as the 1st few seals, indicate things that have been happening in the Early Church, but which come to a crescendo in the endtimes. Furthermore, there are flashbacks and prolepses in a number of the visions, indicating that this is telling a history-long story, rather than just trying to chronicle a series of events to make them predictable for us, or identifiable for our curiosity.

                              These are moral issues of eternal consequence, and are given with the urgency of this kind of warning. It is not designed to give an inside track for those who are insincere, but gives general encouragement to those who wish to be good and faithful.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Keraz View Post

                                The Sixth Seal and the Return of Jesus do not match. They are 2 separate events, years apart.
                                Why would Jesus destroy the world that He has just come to reign over? He only kills the army of Satan and chains him up.
                                The second coming involves a partial destruction of the world, some nations survive, some don't.

                                Zech 14 describes this dramatic day at the end of the age, as does 2 Peter 3. Land is destroyed, land is burnt. But in the end there are surviving nations:

                                ​​Zech 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.

                                It will be a dramatic day, with some survivors as per the quote.

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