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TWO WITNESSES ARISING

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  • #31
    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

    The 7 lampstands are specifically localized churches
    In the first century sure but Rev 11 is thousands of years later. I don't believe the two candlesticks are still in the same place land may not be related to the 7 churches in the beginning of the book.



    Instead of trying to pick my view apart, try to look for truth in it.
    I do both. I look for things that are correct, and things don't look correct.


    As for Jerusalem, this is the obvious context of Rev 11. It starts off specifically in Jerusalem, then the witnesses die there.
    I only see the two individuals dying there...the two churches aren't mentioned to have died. Maybe they did but the text only speaks of the two prophets and I don't interpret that wording as being anymore than two persons.



    Knowing that lampstands represent city-based churches, it is pretty likely that the two city based churches in Rev 11 are based in Jerusalem.
    I don't see that specified. I think the 2w are spread around the world and the two prophets end up being killed in Jerusalem.





    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

      The text says these "two" prophets. Also will there really be a mass resurrection before Christ returns?
      The mass resurrection occurs when Christ returns. The return of Christ occurs at the gathering of the armies (6th trumpet) and at the resurrection of the witnesses (2nd woe)

      The final act of the second coming is the heavenly army destroying the beast and his army. And Jesus taking over the kingdoms of the world (7th trumpet, 3rd woe)

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      • #33
        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

        The return of Christ occurs at the gathering of the armies (6th trumpet) and at the resurrection of the witnesses (2nd woe)
        But Christ does not return until the last trump which is the third woe. Notice the third woe comes quickly ie Christ. In addition the dead in Christ are not raised until the last trumpet.

        Your struggle is trying to fit in the alive and remain and the army of the 6th trumpet at or before the second coming to make it work out.

        Now it very possible an ary goes forth from heaven ahead of Christ to kill those in the city and flee them to the valley wherein Christ does return and then kills them. But again

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        • #34
          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
          Let's think out the box here, forget your initial impression of two humans and let the Bible itself interpret the symbols of the two witnesses of Rev 11:

          V3 two witnesses, they will both witness for Christ
          V3 they also prophesy
          V4 two olive trees. Olive trees are blessed nations Jer 11:16, Hosea 14:6, Rom 11:24
          V4 two candlesticks. Candlesticks are churches as per Rev 1:20

          Simply these are two churches, of two nationalities, based in Israel. These two churches will prophesy.

          The Arab church in Israel, and the Jewish church in Israel are meeting together, showing unity in Christ:

          https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-b...OQbyOpsQ3bUOuw

          I truly believe that we are witnessing the beginnings of the ministry of the two witnesses. Two candlesticks (two churches) and two olive trees (Jew and Gentile). In Jerusalem they will arise as a strong prophetic voice against the antichrist, just prior to his appearance. That will be the 1260 days of the prophesying of the two witnesses. (they exist earlier, but they shall prophesy for 1260 days, v 3)
          The two olive trees and two candlesticks refer to the two prophets who were filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. When a candlestick is removed from a congregation, the power of the Holy Spirit is removed. Paul is talking about a congregation that has a form of godliness, but denies its power. The church today cannot operate without the power of the Holy Ghost. We also see the reference in Matthew 25 where Jesus speaks of the 5 foolish virgins who did not have enough oil in their lamps. These two prophets will only show up when the temple is already built and the covenant is broken by the AC.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
            Good post.

            And I add though you may not agree the ones standing before God are Gabriel and Michael. As Christ they would have the ability to have fire proceed from their mouths moreover than two humans . I think this is fact evidence they are supernatural beings and not just humans.

            Also they raise up just like Christ after 3 days.
            They may well be who you say they are. Others have also suggested that they might be Moses and Elijah among other OT prophets touted to be potentially in the frame. But since Scripture is not explicit on their identity, I wouldn't pull my hair to ascertain their identity either.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
              When I read Romans 11, Israel could very well be the olive tree. The roots are mentioned more than once, and nothing indicates otherwise. Some branches are broken off, and some grafted in, but I see nothing in Romans 11 which contradicts that olive tree being Israel.

              Sure the witnesses are humans I never denied they are humans. The word church refers to a group of believers, believers are humans. Not so? We are citizens of heaven, but still human last I looked.

              Just like two humans can be killed, so can two groups of humans be killed. And be resurrected 3.5 days later at the resurrection.
              In John 15:5 Jesus described himself as the "Vine" and those who believe as the "branches". The same analogy is repeated in Rom 11 even though, the olive tree is used. However, what is consistent is that the 'tree' (whatever it is called - olive, vine) is Jesus Christ.

              A tree cannot survive without a root, so to make Israel the olive tree, they will have to be PART of Jesus, which makes them God. Is this what you're telling me?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                Let's think out the box here, forget your initial impression of two humans and let the Bible itself interpret the symbols of the two witnesses of Rev 11:

                V3 two witnesses, they will both witness for Christ
                V3 they also prophesy
                V4 two olive trees. Olive trees are blessed nations Jer 11:16, Hosea 14:6, Rom 11:24
                V4 two candlesticks. Candlesticks are churches as per Rev 1:20

                Simply these are two churches, of two nationalities, based in Israel. These two churches will prophesy.

                The Arab church in Israel, and the Jewish church in Israel are meeting together, showing unity in Christ:

                https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-b...OQbyOpsQ3bUOuw

                I truly believe that we are witnessing the beginnings of the ministry of the two witnesses. Two candlesticks (two churches) and two olive trees (Jew and Gentile). In Jerusalem they will arise as a strong prophetic voice against the antichrist, just prior to his appearance. That will be the 1260 days of the prophesying of the two witnesses. (they exist earlier, but they shall prophesy for 1260 days, v 3)
                Can your post account for them being described as wearing sackcloth, that they perform miracles, they give prophecy, they die and are raised from the dead, they ascend to heaven?

                While scripture can be looked at symbolically or imagery be interpreted meaning that the two witnesses can be viewed as churches... all these descriptions are accounted to people, not a group of people (either church).

                Also consider, the Rev 11 verses about 2 olive trees and 2 lampstands. Have you considered how this imagery aligns with Zachariah 3 and 4 where such an imagery/symbolism IS about two persons, not two groups?

                For the two witnesses of the Tribulation, they minister their task for 3 1/2 years and then they are killed (v7).

                Can I conclude from your interpretation that the two witnesses are two groups... that ALL membership of each church is killed (v7) and the bodies lie in the streets for 3 days (v8-9), while the rest of the world parties over the end of two entire churches (v10), before all of them being raised from the dead (v11) and for the good measure, God not only raises all of the two churches, but also allows the partiers to see all members of the churches... ascend up to heaven (v12)?

                Based on the scriptures in both Rev 11 and Zach 3-4... I can't see the symbolism/imagery as two whole churches. I see two men depicted in the Rev 11 verses, just as we see two men in the Zach 3-4 verses.

                Slug1--out

                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

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