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“In that day” first century events and Zechariah 11-14 part 1

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  • Discussion “In that day” first century events and Zechariah 11-14 part 1

    Zechariah 11:4-17
    This is what the Lord my God says: “Shepherd the flock marked for slaughter. 5 Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, ‘Praise the Lord, I am rich!’ Their own shepherds do not spare them. 6 For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land,” declares the Lord. “I will give everyone into the hands of their neighbors and their king. They will devastate the land, and I will not rescue anyone from their hands.”

    7 So I shepherded the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I shepherded the flock. 8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.

    The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, “I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.”

    10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the oppressed of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the Lord.

    12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

    13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord.

    14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the family bond between Judah and Israel.

    15 Then the Lord said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves.

    17 “Woe to the worthless shepherd,
    who deserts the flock!
    May the sword strike his arm and his right eye!
    May his arm be completely withered,
    his right eye totally blinded!”

    This is the events of the first century speaking of the price paid for Jesus’ life and Gods wrath on Israel for rejecting and killing their God and messiah with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Josephus even records of a mother eating her baby during the Roman siege.

    This is also a direct punishment by God under the Mosaic covenant wrath listed below

    Deuteronomy 28:49-57
    49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

    53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.


    If Israel is no longer under the Mosaic covenant when would the events of Zechariah chapters 11-14 which each chapter state "in that day" of had to of happened?

    https://bibleforums.org/forum/christ...two-jerusalems
    Last edited by marty fox; Feb 9th 2020, 08:14 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by marty fox View Post
    Zechariah 11:4-17
    This is what the Lord my God says: “Shepherd the flock marked for slaughter. 5 Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, ‘Praise the Lord, I am rich!’ Their own shepherds do not spare them. 6 For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land,” declares the Lord. “I will give everyone into the hands of their neighbors and their king. They will devastate the land, and I will not rescue anyone from their hands.”

    7 So I shepherded the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I shepherded the flock. 8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.

    The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, “I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.”

    10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the oppressed of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the Lord.

    12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

    13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord.

    14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the family bond between Judah and Israel.

    15 Then the Lord said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves.

    17 “Woe to the worthless shepherd,
    who deserts the flock!
    May the sword strike his arm and his right eye!
    May his arm be completely withered,
    his right eye totally blinded!”

    This is the events of the first century speaking of the price paid for Jesus’ life and Gods wrath on Israel for rejecting and killing their God and messiah with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Josephus even records of a mother eating her baby during the Roman siege.

    This is also a direct punishment by God under the Mosaic covenant wrath listed below

    Deuteronomy 28:49-57
    49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

    53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.


    If Israel is no longer under the Mosaic covenant when would the events of Zechariah chapters 11-14 which each chapter state "in that day" of had to of happened?
    I see that the premise of the Thread is difficult. No one wants to venture an opinion. So let me ask; Did someone say that Israel is "no longer under the Mosaic Covenant?" I know that some brothers on this Forum think that when a Covenant is broken it is annulled. But that defies the very concept of Covenant. A Covenant is an agreement under oath which has rewards and penalties. When one side breaks the agreement, it is THEN that we see the Covenant in effect. And Israel broke the Covenant of Law and are, still today, paying the penalties.

    Some students of the Bible will quote scriptures like Colossians 2:14 and say that the Covenant of Law is gone. But this is ONLY VALID for the CHURCH! The only way for ISRAEL to escape their Covenant of Law is by BOTH PARTIES to agree on it. And God is not a God Who quickly forgets what men have agreed to and ratified in blood. Israel's darkest hour till now was the illegal trial and slaying of Jesus. This was done while they were under Law. A yet darker hour still waits for them - the embracing of an "ANTI-MESSIAH", him being a Gentile and him setting an idol up in the Holy of Holies of a Temple claimed by God. And what will be the accusation? ISRAEL IS STILL UNDER LAW and relations with Gentiles are forbidden, a Gentile king is forbidden, idols are forbidden and an idol in the Holy Place is an Abomination that Desolates it!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Walls View Post

      I see that the premise of the Thread is difficult. No one wants to venture an opinion. So let me ask; Did someone say that Israel is "no longer under the Mosaic Covenant?" I know that some brothers on this Forum think that when a Covenant is broken it is annulled. But that defies the very concept of Covenant. A Covenant is an agreement under oath which has rewards and penalties. When one side breaks the agreement, it is THEN that we see the Covenant in effect. And Israel broke the Covenant of Law and are, still today, paying the penalties.

      Some students of the Bible will quote scriptures like Colossians 2:14 and say that the Covenant of Law is gone. But this is ONLY VALID for the CHURCH! The only way for ISRAEL to escape their Covenant of Law is by BOTH PARTIES to agree on it. And God is not a God Who quickly forgets what men have agreed to and ratified in blood. Israel's darkest hour till now was the illegal trial and slaying of Jesus. This was done while they were under Law. A yet darker hour still waits for them - the embracing of an "ANTI-MESSIAH", him being a Gentile and him setting an idol up in the Holy of Holies of a Temple claimed by God. And what will be the accusation? ISRAEL IS STILL UNDER LAW and relations with Gentiles are forbidden, a Gentile king is forbidden, idols are forbidden and an idol in the Holy Place is an Abomination that Desolates it!
      Agreed, accept for the bold part, Israel will never accept a gentile as a "in place of" messiah, so the anti-christ is Jewish or at least has a Jewish mother. Daniel written by a Jew to the Jews, speaks about the "Messiah" or the anointed. This is written to "thy people" see for example Dan. 9:19 "O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name." This is about Jerusalem see v. 16 and Israel see v. 11. In the O.T. days only the Jews were expecting a Messiah, non of the gentiles were. You say the right things ("and relations with Gentiles are forbidden") but draw the wrong conclusion.
      "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
      a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
      rightly dividing the word of truth."
      2 Tim. 2:15

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Adonijah View Post

        Agreed, accept for the bold part, Israel will never accept a gentile as a "in place of" messiah, so the anti-christ is Jewish or at least has a Jewish mother. Daniel written by a Jew to the Jews, speaks about the "Messiah" or the anointed. This is written to "thy people" see for example Dan. 9:19 "O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name." This is about Jerusalem see v. 16 and Israel see v. 11. In the O.T. days only the Jews were expecting a Messiah, non of the gentiles were. You say the right things ("and relations with Gentiles are forbidden") but draw the wrong conclusion.
        It is true that Daniel prays and invokes God for HIS City and HIS people. Daniel 9:19 says;"O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name." But then in verse 20 he changes it. "And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God."

        But it is not what Daniel thinks or says, but what God thinks and says. His answer to Daniel is crushing. Verse24 says, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." God has renamed Israel, "Lo-ammi" - "you are not my People, AND I will not be your God!" (Hos.1:9). This is confirmed very subtily. In the Book of Daniel God is never named "God of heaven AND earth". His testimony is gone. He has disowned Israel. His House is destroyed His city destroyed. He is ONLY; "The God of HEAVEN" in Daniel. And finally, if they were God's people, why is there a need for RECONCILIATION?

        Now we turn to the Beast. Is he Gentile or Jew? He is threefold Gentile!
        1. The grammar of verse 26 is; "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; ... ." Messiah is cut off, AND ... " The word "AND" is copulative and cumulative. It joins two things and it adds an additional thing. "The bread AND the butter". This shows bread (one thing) AND butter (another thing that goes with the bread). So "Messiah" is one thing AND the "Prince" is another. And the grammar goes further to identify him. Who is this Prince? He is a "Prince of the people". Which people? The people, who at some future date to Daniel, will destroy the sanctuary and the city - ROMANS. The Prince is thus FUTURE to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and he is a ROMAN.
        2. The Beast who sets himself up in the "Temple of God" (2nd Thess.2:4) comes out of the "SEA" (Rev.13:1). The "sea" in Parable is the NATIONS (Ezek.26:3-5)
        3. John reports that the Beast is one of SEVEN KINGS. And one of these kings reign as John wrote. The reigning king at John's time of writing was a ROMAN CAESAR. That makes the others Romans. And it makes the eighth a Roman (Rev.17:10-11).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Walls View Post

          I see that the premise of the Thread is difficult. No one wants to venture an opinion. So let me ask; Did someone say that Israel is "no longer under the Mosaic Covenant?" I know that some brothers on this Forum think that when a Covenant is broken it is annulled. But that defies the very concept of Covenant. A Covenant is an agreement under oath which has rewards and penalties. When one side breaks the agreement, it is THEN that we see the Covenant in effect. And Israel broke the Covenant of Law and are, still today, paying the penalties.

          Some students of the Bible will quote scriptures like Colossians 2:14 and say that the Covenant of Law is gone. But this is ONLY VALID for the CHURCH! The only way for ISRAEL to escape their Covenant of Law is by BOTH PARTIES to agree on it. And God is not a God Who quickly forgets what men have agreed to and ratified in blood. Israel's darkest hour till now was the illegal trial and slaying of Jesus. This was done while they were under Law. A yet darker hour still waits for them - the embracing of an "ANTI-MESSIAH", him being a Gentile and him setting an idol up in the Holy of Holies of a Temple claimed by God. And what will be the accusation? ISRAEL IS STILL UNDER LAW and relations with Gentiles are forbidden, a Gentile king is forbidden, idols are forbidden and an idol in the Holy Place is an Abomination that Desolates it!
          The verses I provided. Zechariah 12 is the prophecy of the of Deautoromy 28 which happened in 70AD. The staff was broken and the covenant revoked.


          I don't believe in a future anti Messiah or antichrist

          If the Covenant being gone is only for the church then were does that leave Jewish Christians?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Walls View Post

            It is true that Daniel prays and invokes God for HIS City and HIS people. Daniel 9:19 says;"O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name." But then in verse 20 he changes it. "And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God."

            But it is not what Daniel thinks or says, but what God thinks and says. His answer to Daniel is crushing. Verse24 says, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." God has renamed Israel, "Lo-ammi" - "you are not my People, AND I will not be your God!" (Hos.1:9). This is confirmed very subtily. In the Book of Daniel God is never named "God of heaven AND earth". His testimony is gone. He has disowned Israel. His House is destroyed His city destroyed. He is ONLY; "The God of HEAVEN" in Daniel. And finally, if they were God's people, why is there a need for RECONCILIATION?

            Now we turn to the Beast. Is he Gentile or Jew? He is threefold Gentile!
            1. The grammar of verse 26 is; "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; ... ." Messiah is cut off, AND ... " The word "AND" is copulative and cumulative. It joins two things and it adds an additional thing. "The bread AND the butter". This shows bread (one thing) AND butter (another thing that goes with the bread). So "Messiah" is one thing AND the "Prince" is another. And the grammar goes further to identify him. Who is this Prince? He is a "Prince of the people". Which people? The people, who at some future date to Daniel, will destroy the sanctuary and the city - ROMANS. The Prince is thus FUTURE to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and he is a ROMAN.
            2. The Beast who sets himself up in the "Temple of God" (2nd Thess.2:4) comes out of the "SEA" (Rev.13:1). The "sea" in Parable is the NATIONS (Ezek.26:3-5)
            3. John reports that the Beast is one of SEVEN KINGS. And one of these kings reign as John wrote. The reigning king at John's time of writing was a ROMAN CAESAR. That makes the others Romans. And it makes the eighth a Roman (Rev.17:10-11).
            You're still assuming things. Just as an example, Julius Vogel was the first Jewish prime minister of New Zealand, so it is no problem at all for a Jew to be the Roman prince and still be Jewish. So you exposition above is based on one single assumption: It must be a gentile and that is against everything Scripture is teaching us. The Jews will never make a covenant with a gentile. But you may believe as you please. Christ was the Jewish Messiah, the anti-christ will be a Jewish replacement.
            "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
            a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
            rightly dividing the word of truth."
            2 Tim. 2:15

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Adonijah View Post

              You're still assuming things. Just as an example, Julius Vogel was the first Jewish prime minister of New Zealand, so it is no problem at all for a Jew to be the Roman prince and still be Jewish. So you exposition above is based on one single assumption: It must be a gentile and that is against everything Scripture is teaching us. The Jews will never make a covenant with a gentile. But you may believe as you please. Christ was the Jewish Messiah, the anti-christ will be a Jewish replacement.
              I did not assume anything. I laid down three proofs. I might be wrong, but I did not assume anything. It was your job to show me the mistake in the proofs.

              The Beast's ethnicity was already established in Daniel - Roman. His ethnicity is established in Revelation 13 - Gentile. His ethnicity AND name is established in Revelation 17 - Gentile, Roman and Caesar Nero. He has already reigned says John. He is one of seven who ruled at John's time - a Caesar, he will be the eighth as he is resurrected out of the pit. He reign is future but his PERSON is already established.

              There is not a single bit of scripture that points to the Beast being a Jew.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Walls View Post

                I did not assume anything. I laid down three proofs. I might be wrong, but I did not assume anything. It was your job to show me the mistake in the proofs.

                The Beast's ethnicity was already established in Daniel - Roman. His ethnicity is established in Revelation 13 - Gentile. His ethnicity AND name is established in Revelation 17 - Gentile, Roman and Caesar Nero. He has already reigned says John. He is one of seven who ruled at John's time - a Caesar, he will be the eighth as he is resurrected out of the pit. He reign is future but his PERSON is already established.

                There is not a single bit of scripture that points to the Beast being a Jew.
                The entire Scripture is pointing to the Beast being a Jew, you really don't see that? In the O.T. the Messiah is promised to the Jews. As the Seed of the woman, Messiah had to come out of humanity. As the Seed of Abraham, Messiah had to come from the nation of Israel. As the Seed of Judah, he had to be of the tribe of Judah. As the Seed of David, he had to be of the family of David. Isa. 11:1, 2 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD". This is part of the prophecy of Christ.

                The Jews didn't and still don't believe that Jesus was actually the Christ, so they are still waiting for his "first" arrival. They know that this messiah will be of the seed of David - because it is in the O.T. - and no gentile satisfies this condition.
                "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                rightly dividing the word of truth."
                2 Tim. 2:15

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Adonijah View Post

                  The entire Scripture is pointing to the Beast being a Jew, you really don't see that? In the O.T. the Messiah is promised to the Jews. As the Seed of the woman, Messiah had to come out of humanity. As the Seed of Abraham, Messiah had to come from the nation of Israel. As the Seed of Judah, he had to be of the tribe of Judah. As the Seed of David, he had to be of the family of David. Isa. 11:1, 2 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD". This is part of the prophecy of Christ.

                  The Jews didn't and still don't believe that Jesus was actually the Christ, so they are still waiting for his "first" arrival. They know that this messiah will be of the seed of David - because it is in the O.T. - and no gentile satisfies this condition.
                  Your argument at first seems to make sense. The Jew is looking towards Bethlehem. The Jew is looking for a documented son of David. But the jew is also looking for one out of Egypt. Failing this, the Jew is looking for one risen from the dead who does miracles. And above all the Jew is looking for a man who will LIBERATE them as a nation. Who do you think they will give preference to?

                  The biggest accusation of our Lord Jesus against Israel was "THAT THEY DO NOT BELIEVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS". So what will it help if another comes from Bethlehem? What will it help if he is the line of David? All the records have been destroyed for 2,000 years. But the Beast will come out the WORLD (Egypt)! The Beast will rise from the dead! The Beast will do miracles! The Beast will allow their Temple to be built! The Beast will "confirm" their Covenant (which has the daily oblation as part of it). The Beast will make Jerusalem the leading city of the world when he sets up residence there. The Beast is a man from 1,900 years ago. HE WILL FULFILL THE NATURAL ASPIRATIONS OF THE ISRAELITE. Israel don't have the wherewithall to check the Beast. They will embrace him because he looks like Messiah IN ALL THE POINTS THEY CAN CHECK.

                  But, in the end, it is scripture that decides. And so, you still have to deal with my three reasons. They don't come from me. They are the divine record.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Walls View Post

                    Your argument at first seems to make sense. The Jew is looking towards Bethlehem. The Jew is looking for a documented son of David. But the jew is also looking for one out of Egypt. Failing this, the Jew is looking for one risen from the dead who does miracles. And above all the Jew is looking for a man who will LIBERATE them as a nation. Who do you think they will give preference to?

                    The biggest accusation of our Lord Jesus against Israel was "THAT THEY DO NOT BELIEVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS". So what will it help if another comes from Bethlehem? What will it help if he is the line of David? All the records have been destroyed for 2,000 years. But the Beast will come out the WORLD (Egypt)! The Beast will rise from the dead! The Beast will do miracles! The Beast will allow their Temple to be built! The Beast will "confirm" their Covenant (which has the daily oblation as part of it). The Beast will make Jerusalem the leading city of the world when he sets up residence there. The Beast is a man from 1,900 years ago. HE WILL FULFILL THE NATURAL ASPIRATIONS OF THE ISRAELITE. Israel don't have the wherewithall to check the Beast. They will embrace him because he looks like Messiah IN ALL THE POINTS THEY CAN CHECK.

                    But, in the end, it is scripture that decides. And so, you still have to deal with my three reasons. They don't come from me. They are the divine record.
                    I don't have to deal with your reasaons Walls, Scripture nowhere says what you assume, because that's it, just an assumption. Another assumption is that the Jews don't know their natural ancestry, some do know from which tribe they are. A gentile anti-christ is preposterous, but you may believe as you please. Thank you for the exchange.
                    "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                    a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                    rightly dividing the word of truth."
                    2 Tim. 2:15

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Adonijah View Post

                      I don't have to deal with your reasaons Walls, Scripture nowhere says what you assume, because that's it, just an assumption. Another assumption is that the Jews don't know their natural ancestry, some do know from which tribe they are. A gentile anti-christ is preposterous, but you may believe as you please. Thank you for the exchange.
                      Then it should have been easy to deal with my three proofs. But we are all free to ignore arguments. Go well my brother.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Walls View Post

                        Then it should have been easy to deal with my three proofs. But we are all free to ignore arguments. Go well my brother.
                        But that's what I did in post #11, you just don't accept it. When the Beast is on earth and has reached his "position", the temple in Jerusalem will be ready and initiated. There will be a service and offerings will take place, and in the world around, there won't be much Christians left and most certainly not much gentile Christians. Of that time it's said among other things in Rev. 13:16, 17 "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name".

                        So again it is about the Jews, that's what the beast has his eyes on, cause they (the Jews) will accept their (falls) messiah as the Lord says in John 5:43 "...if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive". This was said to Jews, Christ was a minister of the circumcision Rom. 15:8. The Kingdom of heaven was only preached to the Jews, see Mathew. Paul preached to the Jew first, then to the Greek Rom. 1:16. This Kingdom of heaven was promised to Israel in the O.T. Exo. 19:6 "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation...". About 80% of Scripture is about the nation of Israel, about its failures and about its successes. These Jews, who will be zealous of the Law, will never accept a gentile messiah and most certainly will not make a covenant with a gentile.
                        "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                        a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                        rightly dividing the word of truth."
                        2 Tim. 2:15

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Adonijah View Post

                          But that's what I did in post #11, you just don't accept it. When the Beast is on earth and has reached his "position", the temple in Jerusalem will be ready and initiated. There will be a service and offerings will take place, and in the world around, there won't be much Christians left and most certainly not much gentile Christians. Of that time it's said among other things in Rev. 13:16, 17 "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name".

                          So again it is about the Jews, that's what the beast has his eyes on, cause they (the Jews) will accept their (falls) messiah as the Lord says in John 5:43 "...if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive". This was said to Jews, Christ was a minister of the circumcision Rom. 15:8. The Kingdom of heaven was only preached to the Jews, see Mathew. Paul preached to the Jew first, then to the Greek Rom. 1:16. This Kingdom of heaven was promised to Israel in the O.T. Exo. 19:6 "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation...". About 80% of Scripture is about the nation of Israel, about its failures and about its successes. These Jews, who will be zealous of the Law, will never accept a gentile messiah and most certainly will not make a covenant with a gentile.
                          Thanks for your reply. Posting # 11 was mine actually. Here again are the proofs which I allude to:
                          1. The grammar of verse 26 is; "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; ... ." Messiah is cut off, AND ... " The word "AND" is copulative and cumulative. It joins two things and it adds an additional thing. "The bread AND the butter". This shows bread (one thing) AND butter (another thing that goes with the bread). So "Messiah" is one thing AND the "Prince" is another. And the grammar goes further to identify him. Who is this Prince? He is a "Prince of the people". Which people? The people, who at some future date to Daniel, will destroy the sanctuary and the city - ROMANS. The Prince is thus FUTURE to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and he is a ROMAN.
                          2. The Beast who sets himself up in the "Temple of God" (2nd Thess.2:4) comes out of the "SEA" (Rev.13:1). The "sea" in Parable is the NATIONS (Ezek.26:3-5)
                          3. John reports that the Beast is one of SEVEN KINGS. And one of these kings reign as John wrote. The reigning king at John's time of writing was a ROMAN CAESAR. That makes the others Romans. And it makes the eighth a Roman (Rev.17:10-11).
                          But let me address your quoted posting. In your first paragraph you did not reach a conclusion, and you did not give scripture for your position that there will be few Christians left.

                          In your second paragraph you have correctly said that our Lord Jesus spoke to Jews in John 5:43, and correctly said that He was a Minister to the circumcsion. But you have conveniently left out the fact that once His rejection was complete, our LOrd Jesus ripped the kingdom away from the Jews (Matt.21:43). And in Exodus 19:6 you conveniently left out verse 5 which puts a CONDITION on verse 6. Exodus 19:5-6 reads:

                          5 "Now therefore, IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
                          6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."


                          Did Israel keep the Law? Did they keep the Covenant? Or did they break it within 40 days of agreeing to keep it? And it is so badly broken that it must wax old and pass away to be replaced by a New Covenant (Jer.31:31-33). And then you make a startling statement that "These Jews, who will be zealous for the Law .... ." Which Jews are zealous for the Law? Was not that one of the main accusations of our Lord Jesus that they had Moses but did not listen to him (Lk.16:29-31). Truly, 80% of scripture pertains to the Jews, but it is a story about tragedy of massive proportions. It starts with a Golden Calf, and it ends with a Golden Idol (Rev.13:14-15). Israel has NEVER been zealous for the Law. Their record is one of a BROKEN Law, and Romans Chapter 7 says that NO MAN can keep the Law.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Walls View Post

                            Thanks for your reply. Posting # 11 was mine actually.
                            Yeah it was, my bad. I apologize.

                            Here again are the proofs which I allude to:
                            1. The grammar of verse 26 is; "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; ... ." Messiah is cut off, AND ... " The word "AND" is copulative and cumulative. It joins two things and it adds an additional thing. "The bread AND the butter". This shows bread (one thing) AND butter (another thing that goes with the bread). So "Messiah" is one thing AND the "Prince" is another. And the grammar goes further to identify him. Who is this Prince? He is a "Prince of the people". Which people? The people, who at some future date to Daniel, will destroy the sanctuary and the city - ROMANS. The Prince is thus FUTURE to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and he is a ROMAN.
                            2. The Beast who sets himself up in the "Temple of God" (2nd Thess.2:4) comes out of the "SEA" (Rev.13:1). The "sea" in Parable is the NATIONS (Ezek.26:3-5)
                            3. John reports that the Beast is one of SEVEN KINGS. And one of these kings reign as John wrote. The reigning king at John's time of writing was a ROMAN CAESAR. That makes the others Romans. And it makes the eighth a Roman (Rev.17:10-11).
                            But let me address your quoted posting. In your first paragraph you did not reach a conclusion, and you did not give scripture for your position that there will be few Christians left.

                            In your second paragraph you have correctly said that our Lord Jesus spoke to Jews in John 5:43, and correctly said that He was a Minister to the circumcsion. But you have conveniently left out the fact that once His rejection was complete, our LOrd Jesus ripped the kingdom away from the Jews (Matt.21:43). And in Exodus 19:6 you conveniently left out verse 5 which puts a CONDITION on verse 6. Exodus 19:5-6 reads:

                            5 "Now therefore, IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
                            6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."


                            Did Israel keep the Law? Did they keep the Covenant? Or did they break it within 40 days of agreeing to keep it? And it is so badly broken that it must wax old and pass away to be replaced by a New Covenant (Jer.31:31-33). And then you make a startling statement that "These Jews, who will be zealous for the Law .... ." Which Jews are zealous for the Law? Was not that one of the main accusations of our Lord Jesus that they had Moses but did not listen to him (Lk.16:29-31). Truly, 80% of scripture pertains to the Jews, but it is a story about tragedy of massive proportions. It starts with a Golden Calf, and it ends with a Golden Idol (Rev.13:14-15). Israel has NEVER been zealous for the Law. Their record is one of a BROKEN Law, and Romans Chapter 7 says that NO MAN can keep the Law.
                            So there are lies in Scripture? Acts 21:20 "And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:".

                            You seem to have written of the Jews all the way, which is surprising since the restoration of Israel is foretold in Scripture, plenty of times even, I'll give you some texts. In Deu. 28 we see in v. 1-14 the blessing for Israel, in v. 15-68 the curse. So their sin and the breaking of the old covenant is not the end of the Jews, what would there become of the Christians if God would be like that? The curse includes Israel's exile from the land and the scattering everywhere. This was done in two, by Babel and by Rome v. 49 reads "The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;". Both the Assyrians and the Romans apply, but Latin is a completely different language and since Assyria isn't "from far, from the end of the earth" Moses has the eye on the Romans. Yet what does God say? Isa. 43:5, 6 "Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed (Israel) from the east, and gather thee from the west; I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;". Jer. 16:15 "But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers." This never happened yet, so it's prophecy about Israel's future restoration.

                            Isa. 61:7 says "For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.", those "them" is Israel. V. 9 says "And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed", the "they" are Israel.

                            Eze. 28:25 says "Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.". Eze. 39:26 "After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid".

                            So no matter what you say, Israel has a future and a bright one.


                            "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                            a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                            rightly dividing the word of truth."
                            2 Tim. 2:15

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Adonijah View Post

                              Yeah it was, my bad. I apologize.



                              So there are lies in Scripture? Acts 21:20 "And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:".


                              Yes, there are lies RECORDED in the Bible, the first one being in Genesis Chapter 3. There are also MISTAKES RECORDED by the hundred in scripture, and the Church in Jerusalem had fully given themselves over to the Law. The whole Book of Galatians regulates this awful mistake.

                              Galatians 2:21; "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
                              Galatians 5:4; "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

                              Originally posted by Adonijah View Post
                              You seem to have written of the Jews all the way, which is surprising since the restoration of Israel is foretold in Scripture, plenty of times even,
                              This was not even addressed. I've been on this Forum 9 years and have over 6,500 posts under my belt. In scores of these I support the the doctrine that Israel will be restored. Why not read my posting # 51 in the thread "Who will populate the earth in the 1000 year Reign" in Bible Chat?

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