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  • Problem with millennial rev 20:4 does not include all Christians

    The verse only speaks of a specific group ones which were beheaded at a specific time.. so then where are the other Christian's which died and resurrected in rev 20?

  • #2
    "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words."(1 Thessalonians 4).
    My theory: Not all christians are in the 1st resurrection (death bed conversion and things of that nature). If we don't make it in the first resurrection, it does mean we are going to hell in the 2nd. It means we have to go through a court case to determine if we deserve hell.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
      The verse only speaks of a specific group ones which were beheaded at a specific time.. so then where are the other Christian's which died and resurrected in rev 20?
      First off, I am not convinced that the people in part A of the verse are identical to the people in part B of the verse:

      A) "And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given to them"

      B) "AND the souls of those having been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God and those who did not worship the beast nor the image of him and did not take the mark upon the forehead and upon the hand of them. And they lived [same word as in 2:8] and reigned with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Christ a thousand years."


      I mean, they COULD be the same, but I am strongly inclined to believe they are distinct. (For example, Daniel was told he would "rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the END OF THE DAYS [at the END of a VERY SPECIFIC set of days, in that CONTEXT, vv.6-7,1... i.e. at the END of the TRIB yrs (aka the START of the MK age)]")


      Aside from that, you may recall my posts about 1Cor15:23's "[re: resurrection] ...but each [a word that means, 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER" (showing there is a SEQUENCE to it, and there doesn't remain only ONE);

      Rev20:6 also saying, "blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART [G3313 - meros] in the resurrection the first...";
      and how I've shown in past posts that the 2W are "resurrected" at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" at a time-slot which is distinct from when all/any others are resurrected... point being, I don't believe "resurrection" (of the just / saved) happens only at a singular point in time, but in a few different points in time (and that ALL saints are present and accounted for [as still-alive or resurrected] FOR the earthly MK age, its commencement).

      Additionally, I've pointed out Paul's words in 1Cor15:51-54 "Behold I shew you a mystery" where he is speaking specifically of "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" speaking specifically of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]), that is, "the DEAD in Christ" AND the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" (of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") which is addressing something that is distinct from what the OT saints already WELL-KNEW (like Job in Job19:25-27; and Daniel in Daniel 12:13; and Martha in John 11:24-26) but something that had theretofore not yet been disclosed! So that THIS pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]").

      So that THIS then correlates with the following post I'd made some time back:

      [quoting that post, in part]

      Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['having redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:


      [see @ this vid:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztQFuyWQp6c

      (approx 9-min vid total)--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]

      [end quoting that post]

      ____________

      We can see in that passage the "24 elders" IN Heaven (FOLLOWING a "searching judgment"--5:4), wearing gold stephanon/crowns (recall, Paul had said "IN THAT DAY") and sitting on "24 thrones"before even the FIRST SEAL is opened (it's opened at the START of the future 7-yr period).


      [and recall, "the 12" were told they will "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" (see Matt19:28 [and the TIME-INDICATOR of THAT found ALSO in Matt25:31-34] and Luke 22:18,16,30) ]

      This is how I'm seeing it. = )

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
        The verse only speaks of a specific group ones which were beheaded at a specific time.. so then where are the other Christian's which died and resurrected in rev 20?

        John had already said that the saint "Will Reign (future tense) on the earth"


        Rev 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."


        The fact that John uses the FUTURE tense description saying the Saints "will reign upon the earth" shatters the idea that the church was already reigning in the millennium directly after the time of the cross. John is writing revelation about 66 years after the 1st advent and still saw the "reign on the earth as a FUTURE reality.


        As TDW stated above, there is strong evidence that 20:4 part A is speaking about all the saints where as 20:4 part B is highlighting the destiny of the martyrs. Notice ins 20:4 it says "And I saw thrones and they that sat on them, and judgment was committed to them..."


        John says he saw thrones and "they that sat on them". Earlier in Revelation, Jesus said that all overcoming saints "will sit (future tense) "with Me on My throne just as I sat down (past tense) on my fathers throne"



        Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.


        Those granted to "sit on thrones" are the overcomers. This is a description that applies to all believers. Secondly, the fact that Christ says "I will grant (FUTURE TENSE) to him to sit with me on My Throne" and uses the FUTURE tense verb "will grant" demands that the reigning of the saints on thrones did not start at the 1st advent. It was a future reality to John even in 96AD... After all Jesus was very clear with his disciples that they would not sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel until the "regeneration" when the "Son of Man comes in glory" (Matt 19:28)


        Mat 19:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


        Going back to Rev 20:4. The pronoun "THEY" in the phrase "they that sat on them (thrones)" must grammatically have a antecedent from the text. Pronouns modify nouns. The martyrs are not mention until after this text which would be a very odd way describe them. Pronouns generally do not modify nouns BEFORE the noun is introduced. It is more likely that the pronoun "they" is modifying the saints spoken of in the previous chapter.

        Rev 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
          The verse only speaks of a specific group ones which were beheaded at a specific time.. so then where are the other Christian's which died and resurrected in rev 20?
          Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,{Church that returns from Heaven with Jesus sits in Judgment} and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

          Those that were beheaded/killed during the tribulation period/70th week stay on earth and rule with Christ for 1000 years. I assume the Raptured Church thus returns to heaven to help with the New Jerusalem, thus when it descends its called the Bride of Christ, we are therein as it descends,

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          • #6
            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
            The verse only speaks of a specific group ones which were beheaded at a specific time.. so then where are the other Christian's which died and resurrected in rev 20?
            Let me ask your opinion, when is the Judgement Day of the Lord? Before or after the MK?

            Revelation 20:4
            And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
              The verse only speaks of a specific group ones which were beheaded at a specific time.. so then where are the other Christian's which died and resurrected in rev 20?
              Let's examine the verse in question. Revelation 20:4.

              "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

              The verses starts with THRONES. What follows is who sat upon them.
              1. "THEY" sat upon them. The "THEY" are unnamed but New Testament tells us in Luke 19:17-19 and Revelation 2:27. Certain Christians COUNTED WORTHY
              2. "THEY" would also be the Twelve Apostles (Matt.19:28; Lk.22:30)
              3. "THEY" would also be Old Testament believers like Abraham (Matt.8:11), Moses (Matt.16:28-17:3) and David (Jer.30:9)
              Then the verse continues with "AND". The word "and" is both copulative and cumulative. That means it joins things and adds things. It can also indicate a sequence. THREE types of people are JOINED to the first group and are IN ADDITION to the first group
              1. "THEM" that were beheaded for the Witness of Jesus. This is every Christian martyr since Stephen in Acts 7
              2. "AND THEM" who were beheaded for the WORD of GOD. This is the prophets starting with Abel
              3. "AND THEM" who refused the Beast. All men, whether Christian, Jew or Gentile who resisted the beast unto death. They are only found in the last 3 years of this age
              "AND" they (ALL SIX OF THE ABOVE) "LIVED". That means an ADDITIONAL thing happened to them. They were resurrected from death. They "LIVED"
              "AND" they (ALL SIX OF THE ABOVE) "REIGNED". That means, in ADDITION to being resurrected, they were made co-kings with Christ

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                The verse only speaks of a specific group ones which were beheaded at a specific time.. so then where are the other Christian's which died and resurrected in rev 20?
                Rev 20 only focuses upon one small group of Christians that died in the GT from beheading. At the same time all dead Christians will also resurrect but John was not shown their resurrections. You would have to go to Paul where he said the dead in Christ rise first, which is all together at the same time not in stages.

                It is actually the unsaved that resurrect in stages and come from various places. One group is at the throne and comes from nowhere, then there are groups that come from death, hell and the sea. I believe the first group were the last mortals that died in the fire at the battle of Jerusalem. God did not send them to hell or death. He just takes them to the throne and the others come in stages after this:


                Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
                Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

                Here we have a group of people who are being judged. They don't arrive from any specific place. They are simply there at the great white throne to be judged as if they died where they are being judged. Could it be these are the ones in Rev 20:9 that are killed by fire from God?

                Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

                After the first group are judged there are more that come from the sea and from death and hell. These were not already in the judging area like the first group were. We are seeing the dead being judged in stages. First a group that is not said to have arrived from elsewhere are judged. Then after that people start arriving from 3 places: hell, death and the sea. All of these imply deep dark places.

                I believe that first group were the rebels of the little season and they died here upon the Earth and they were judged here instead of going to hades/hell which normally would occur. Then, those who are elsewhere are brought forth to also be judged.

                This would explain why some are judged first, then others being judged afterwards from 3 separate places. So the last judgment has people who are from 4 different places:

                1. Those already at the judgment area
                2. Those from the sea
                3. Those from death
                4. Those from hell (hades)
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

                  First off, I am not convinced that the people in part A of the verse are identical to the people in part B of the verse:

                  A) "And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given to them"

                  B) "AND the souls of those having been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God and those who did not worship the beast nor the image of him and did not take the mark upon the forehead and upon the hand of them. And they lived [same word as in 2:8] and reigned with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Christ a thousand years."


                  I mean, they COULD be the same, but I am strongly inclined to believe they are distinct.
                  Yes they are two different groups. One judges, and the dead are receiving the decision of that judgment...and that is eternal life in an immortal glorified body. John saw these dead live again, while the rest of the dead did not live again until a thousand years later.

                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by The Beginner View Post



                    As TDW stated above, there is strong evidence that 20:4 part A is speaking about all the saints where as 20:4 part B is highlighting the destiny of the martyrs. Notice ins 20:4 it says "And I saw thrones and they that sat on them, and judgment was committed to them..."


                    John says he saw thrones and "they that sat on them". Earlier in Revelation, Jesus said that all overcoming saints "will sit (future tense) "with Me on My throne just as I sat down (past tense) on my fathers throne"



                    Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.


                    I think that is more likely something applied to the eternity. In Rev 20, who can be sitting on thrones judging some of the dead in Christ before any of the dead in Christ have even been resurrected?

                    Sure those on the thrones doing the judging is the Father and Son alone, they do the first ever judgment of the faithful dead which results in a resurrection and immortality. I don't see anyone else who could have been able to sit on thrones and judge dead Christians. I believe all the dead in Christ rise at the same time at the same time of judgment so cannot think of anyone else could judge them except the Father and Son.


                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

                      Let me ask your opinion, when is the Judgement Day of the Lord? Before or after the MK?
                      Both. One is held before the thousand years and one is held after.

                      Rev 20:4 has thrones and judgment--before the thousand years

                      Rev 20:11-13 has one throne and judgment --after the thousand years

                      Both also have dead people coming back to life so we have two days of judgement and resurrection separated a period of time.
                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                        Rev 20 only focuses upon one small group of Christians that died in the GT from beheading. At the same time all dead Christians will also resurrect but John was not shown their resurrections. You would have to go to Paul where he said the dead in Christ rise first, which is all together at the same time not in stages.

                        It is actually the unsaved that resurrect in stages and come from various places. One group is at the throne and comes from nowhere, then there are groups that come from death, hell and the sea. I believe the first group were the last mortals that died in the fire at the battle of Jerusalem. God did not send them to hell or death. He just takes them to the throne and the others come in stages after this:


                        Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
                        Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

                        Here we have a group of people who are being judged. They don't arrive from any specific place. They are simply there at the great white throne to be judged as if they died where they are being judged. Could it be these are the ones in Rev 20:9 that are killed by fire from God?

                        Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

                        After the first group are judged there are more that come from the sea and from death and hell. These were not already in the judging area like the first group were. We are seeing the dead being judged in stages. First a group that is not said to have arrived from elsewhere are judged. Then after that people start arriving from 3 places: hell, death and the sea. All of these imply deep dark places.

                        I believe that first group were the rebels of the little season and they died here upon the Earth and they were judged here instead of going to hades/hell which normally would occur. Then, those who are elsewhere are brought forth to also be judged.

                        This would explain why some are judged first, then others being judged afterwards from 3 separate places. So the last judgment has people who are from 4 different places:

                        1. Those already at the judgment area
                        2. Those from the sea
                        3. Those from death
                        4. Those from hell (hades)
                        The first group at the gwt are the dead in Christ. They are standing the wicked will not stand furthermore the book of life is present whereby their names to be roll called from therein. No need for the bol if they were wicked. Then we see the wicked raised thereafter.

                        We are all judged at the GWT.

                        The exception are the beheaded which are raised prior as they are firstfruits. Do you know what firstfruits imply?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                          The first group at the gwt are the dead in Christ.
                          No Christian is at the GWT....they are judged earlier when there are more than one throne.

                          They are standing the wicked will not stand furthermore the book of life is present whereby their names to be roll called from therein. No need for the bol if they were wicked.
                          The book of life is always present at judgment.



                          The exception are the beheaded which are raised prior as they are firstfruits.
                          All the dead in Christ are firstfruits of the first resurrection. The second resurrection is only for the wicked.



                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                            No Christian is at the GWT....they are judged earlier when there are more than one throne.

                            I want to thank you for pointing out the "thrones" in verse 4 which has lead to further understanding. You see the thrones are 12 thrones whereby The 12 apostles will judged the 144 k.

                            Matt 19:28

                            That which you (apostles) have followed me in the regeneration when the son of man shall sit in the throne of glory ye shall also sit on 12 thrones judging the Twelve tribes of Israel.

                            Oh my!!! So we see the beheaded the 144k being judged by the 12 apostles along with god first. This is why they are called firstfruits.

                            This also negates the possibility of a 1000 years as we see god sitting on his throne of glory prior to the supposed milenial!!!!!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                              I want to thank you for pointing out the "thrones" in verse 4 which has lead to further understanding. You see the thrones are 12 thrones whereby The 12 apostles will judged the 144 k.
                              IMO it's two thrones, the Father and Son.




                              This also negates the possibility of a 1000 years as we see god sitting on his throne of glory prior to the supposed milenial!!!!!
                              Nothing can negate the thousand years because it is written in scripture.
                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment

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