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The thrones in Rev 20:4 represent the 12 thrones whereby the apostles judge the 144k

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  • The thrones in Rev 20:4 represent the 12 thrones whereby the apostles judge the 144k

    New info...proves those in verse 4 the beheaded are in fact only the 144k. The thrones represent 12 thrones wherein the 12 apostles judged the 12 tribes of Israel!!

    Matt 19:28

    Verily I say into you (apostles) that which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man sits In throne of glory ye shall also sit upon twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel

    Rev 20:4

    And I saw thrones (12 thrones) and they (12 apostles) sat upon them and judgement was given into them (12 apostles): and I saw the souls of them beheaded (144k).

    Now this has major implications on previous understandings

    First this shows verse 4 only speaks of the 144k and not all the dead in Christ thus we see them raised and judged before the first resurrection. Supported as we see them with the lamb rev 14 learning the song of Moses which see them singing in heaven rev 15 again before the first resurrection as they are firstfruits.

    Second it shows that the rest of the dead in rev 20 are then to be taken as believers which this is the first resurrection as it states. Now per rev 20 these rest of the dead now understood as believers are not raised until after the supposed milenial period. Thus knowing the dead in Christ being raised occurs upon the second coming and not a 1000 years later proves the 1000 years not as literal and that both godly and ungodly judged at the GWT.


    Thirdly and most important is shows that there cannot be a 1000 literal years as we see as the 12 apostles are on thrones and so too is God! Showing God being on the throne in judgement prior to not after the 1000 years. Hence there cannot be 1000 years between judgments if God is already on the judgement throne prior to the supposed 1000 years.

    1000 years (metaphor) Satan in pit
    1000 years completed Satan released
    Little season rev 5 fellowsevants 144k killed
    144 k raised and judged firstfruits
    Second coming
    GWT
    First resurrection dead in Christ ie rest of dead (believers)
    The wicked raised afterwards on the same day. The last day.

    I want to thank EQW 138 for having myself focus on understanding the relevance on the "thrones" in verse 4. Praise God!



  • #2
    Revelation 14:4-5—"These [the 144,000] have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless."

    If these are blameless, why are they judged? A sincere question. What say you?
    Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
      Revelation 14:4-5—"These [the 144,000] have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless."

      If these are blameless, why are they judged? A sincere question. What say you?
      Everyone is judged and the shed blood of Christ we will all be found blameless

      Comment


      • #4
        So if I understand, you're saying they've been judged and found to be blameless because they're in Christ?
        Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
          So if I understand, you're saying they've been judged and found to be blameless because they're in Christ?
          Yes just like all of us but there is still a remnant of Israel and the church to be saved.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
            New info...proves those in verse 4 the beheaded are in fact only the 144k. The thrones represent 12 thrones wherein the 12 apostles judged the 12 tribes of Israel!!

            Matt 19:28

            Verily I say into you (apostles) that which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man sits In throne of glory ye shall also sit upon twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel

            Rev 20:4

            And I saw thrones (12 thrones) and they (12 apostles) sat upon them and judgement was given into them (12 apostles): and I saw the souls of them beheaded (144k).

            Now this has major implications on previous understandings

            First this shows verse 4 only speaks of the 144k and not all the dead in Christ thus we see them raised and judged before the first resurrection. Supported as we see them with the lamb rev 14 learning the song of Moses which see them singing in heaven rev 15 again before the first resurrection as they are firstfruits.

            Second it shows that the rest of the dead in rev 20 are then to be taken as believers which this is the first resurrection as it states. Now per rev 20 these rest of the dead now understood as believers are not raised until after the supposed milenial period. Thus knowing the dead in Christ being raised occurs upon the second coming and not a 1000 years later proves the 1000 years not as literal and that both godly and ungodly judged at the GWT.


            Thirdly and most important is shows that there cannot be a 1000 literal years as we see as the 12 apostles are on thrones and so too is God! Showing God being on the throne in judgement prior to not after the 1000 years. Hence there cannot be 1000 years between judgments if God is already on the judgement throne prior to the supposed 1000 years.

            1000 years (metaphor) Satan in pit
            1000 years completed Satan released
            Little season rev 5 fellowsevants 144k killed
            144 k raised and judged firstfruits
            Second coming
            GWT
            First resurrection dead in Christ ie rest of dead (believers)
            The wicked raised afterwards on the same day. The last day.

            I want to thank EQW 138 for having myself focus on understanding the relevance on the "thrones" in verse 4. Praise God!

            I love your post. You may find this interesting, I posted this on another thread:


            There are about 15 places in the bible that mentions the book of life. That our names must be written in the book of life or we will face the punishment of God.
            But the bible does not mention any other time where the books were actually opened, other than Rev 20:11-13. This is the great white throne of judgement. The bible says from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and was found no place for them. So we know what is taking place here; as the heavens and earth already has passed away.

            Rev 20:12 says, "I saw the dead stand before God". It was at this specific point, only after the earth and heaven fled away. It was only here when the books were opened; including the book of life. The Word says that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
            Revelation 20
            11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
            12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
            13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works


            But notice what Daniel said; "at that time" shall Michael stand up:...."and at that time" thy people shall be delivered, "every one" that shall be found written in the book. There are not (2) judgements.
            Daniel 12:1
            And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


            This is the only place and time, where that the Lord actually did sat on the throne of judgement. This is the only time the books were opened. This is the only time that the Lord did declare judgment.
            Now, the judgement of those in Rev 20:4 did only occur after the 1000 year reign, and after the earth and heaven fled before the face of the Lord. This is when John saw the thrones. This was before the great white throne of the Lord. This is when judgment was given unto them.




            Now for the other fact; These are those that lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Notice the words "Lived" and "Reigned". Both words are past tense from the time that John "saw" that judgement "was" given (which is presence tense in his vision). Also, which "had not worshipped" (all past tense). Neither "had received" his mark(past tense). This means, the 1000 years that they "Lived' and Reigned" with Christ had already happened prior to judgement. The 1000 years were already over and expired, by the time that John saw the thrones and they that sat upon them.



            Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

              I want to thank EQW 138 for having myself focus on understanding the relevance on the "thrones" in verse 4. Praise God!

              You are welcome but but thrones could be as little as two thrones and the beheaded aren't numbered either and there is no evidence the 144k even die. The sealing more implies they are kept alive like how God marked Cain so he wasn't killed.

              I think it's the Father and Son on two thrones judging Christians who died in the GT. All the dead in Christ will be judged at this time but John was only shown the beheaded from the GT being judged but that doesn't mean others aren't judged as well as resurrected at that same time. The dead in Christ rise first...that's all of them not some.

              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                New info...proves those in verse 4 the beheaded are in fact only the 144k. The thrones represent 12 thrones wherein the 12 apostles judged the 12 tribes of Israel!!

                Matt 19:28

                Verily I say into you (apostles) that which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man sits In throne of glory ye shall also sit upon twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel

                Rev 20:4

                And I saw thrones (12 thrones) and they (12 apostles) sat upon them and judgement was given into them (12 apostles): and I saw the souls of them beheaded (144k).


                Matt 25 speaks of the judgment of peoples, languages and nations. Those who were beheaded make the judgment with Christ. Rom 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
                To God be the Glory

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

                  I love your post. You may find this interesting, I posted this on another thread:


                  There are about 15 places in the bible that mentions the book of life. That our names must be written in the book of life or we will face the punishment of God.
                  But the bible does not mention any other time where the books were actually opened, other than Rev 20:11-13. This is the great white throne of judgement. The bible says from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and was found no place for them. So we know what is taking place here; as the heavens and earth already has passed away.

                  Rev 20:12 says, "I saw the dead stand before God". It was at this specific point, only after the earth and heaven fled away. It was only here when the books were opened; including the book of life. The Word says that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
                  Revelation 20
                  11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
                  12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
                  13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works


                  But notice what Daniel said; "at that time" shall Michael stand up:...."and at that time" thy people shall be delivered, "every one" that shall be found written in the book. There are not (2) judgements.
                  Daniel 12:1
                  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


                  This is the only place and time, where that the Lord actually did sat on the throne of judgement. This is the only time the books were opened. This is the only time that the Lord did declare judgment.
                  Now, the judgement of those in Rev 20:4 did only occur after the 1000 year reign, and after the earth and heaven fled before the face of the Lord. This is when John saw the thrones. This was before the great white throne of the Lord. This is when judgment was given unto them.




                  Now for the other fact; These are those that lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Notice the words "Lived" and "Reigned". Both words are past tense from the time that John "saw" that judgement "was" given (which is presence tense in his vision). Also, which "had not worshipped" (all past tense). Neither "had received" his mark(past tense). This means, the 1000 years that they "Lived' and Reigned" with Christ had already happened prior to judgement. The 1000 years were already over and expired, by the time that John saw the thrones and they that sat upon them.



                  Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                  Agree thanks. Just some side notes ..Michael stands up and there is a time of trouble which aligns with the 1260 days. Michael is one of the 2w. Also interesting is we see all the seals of the book opened in rev 10 then the angel utters words which John is told not to write, why could he not write these words? They were the names left written in the book of life.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                    Agree thanks. Just some side notes ..Michael stands up and there is a time of trouble which aligns with the 1260 days. Michael is one of the 2w. Also interesting is we see all the seals of the book opened in rev 10 then the angel utters words which John is told not to write, why could he not write these words? They were the names left written in the book of life.
                    If John does not tell us, how come you know? Did John tell you?
                    To God be the Glory

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ross3421

                      Michael is one of the 2w
                      The two witnesses are not angels, but 2 humans that will die.
                      To God be the Glory

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                        New info...proves those in verse 4 the beheaded are in fact only the 144k. The thrones represent 12 thrones wherein the 12 apostles judged the 12 tribes of Israel!!

                        Matt 19:28

                        Verily I say into you (apostles) that which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man sits In throne of glory ye shall also sit upon twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel

                        Rev 20:4

                        And I saw thrones (12 thrones) and they (12 apostles) sat upon them and judgement was given into them (12 apostles): and I saw the souls of them beheaded (144k).

                        Now this has major implications on previous understandings

                        First this shows verse 4 only speaks of the 144k and not all the dead in Christ thus we see them raised and judged before the first resurrection. Supported as we see them with the lamb rev 14 learning the song of Moses which see them singing in heaven rev 15 again before the first resurrection as they are firstfruits.

                        Second it shows that the rest of the dead in rev 20 are then to be taken as believers which this is the first resurrection as it states. Now per rev 20 these rest of the dead now understood as believers are not raised until after the supposed milenial period. Thus knowing the dead in Christ being raised occurs upon the second coming and not a 1000 years later proves the 1000 years not as literal and that both godly and ungodly judged at the GWT.


                        Thirdly and most important is shows that there cannot be a 1000 literal years as we see as the 12 apostles are on thrones and so too is God! Showing God being on the throne in judgement prior to not after the 1000 years. Hence there cannot be 1000 years between judgments if God is already on the judgement throne prior to the supposed 1000 years.

                        1000 years (metaphor) Satan in pit
                        1000 years completed Satan released
                        Little season rev 5 fellowsevants 144k killed
                        144 k raised and judged firstfruits
                        Second coming
                        GWT
                        First resurrection dead in Christ ie rest of dead (believers)
                        The wicked raised afterwards on the same day. The last day.

                        I want to thank EQW 138 for having myself focus on understanding the relevance on the "thrones" in verse 4. Praise God!
                        ========================
                        Are you speaking of the 144,000 which God...Himself saves...because of the conditions here on earth during the great tribulation?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                          Yes just like all of us but there is still a remnant of Israel and the church to be saved.
                          Okay, appreciate it.
                          Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
                            Revelation 14:4-5—"These [the 144,000] have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless."

                            If these are blameless, why are they judged? A sincere question. What say you?
                            The 144,000 are Servants of God, sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads
                            The name of God is in their forehead, in Rev 14:1. The seal of God is the name of God.
                            These 144,000 follow The Lamb wherever He goes. There are some that shall ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:15-16-17, They are the same group.
                            Rev 7:3 saying, Do not hurt the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
                            Rev 14:1 And I looked, and lo, the Lamb stood on Mount Zion. And with Him were a hundred and forty-four thousands, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
                            Rev 14: 4 These are those who were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, as a firstfruit to God and to the Lamb.
                            .1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
                            1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
                            The Apostles were Servants, Paul, James, and Jude call themselves Servants. Daniel would be part of the 144,000. He will be resurrected at the end of days. (NKJV last day) The 1st resurrection. All the old Prophets would have been servants, even Jonah was called to be a servant. He didn’t want to, but he did his job. These are the servants that have died and will be resurrected.
                            Rom1;1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
                            Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,-----
                            James 1: 1 James, a servant of God -----
                            Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
                              Revelation 14:4-5—"These [the 144,000] have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless."

                              If these are blameless, why are they judged? A sincere question. What say you?
                              They are blameless here at rev 14 because they have just been judged. You see these in rev 14 are the same as in rev 20:4 they are resurrected before all others and judged this is why they are called firstfruits.

                              Comment

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