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  • #2
    The stark truth is found in Luke 21:36, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

    The truth of the matter is short and simple.
    1. One CANNOT prepare oneself. "ESCAPE" is what is required
    2. Not all will escape. You must be "ACCOUNTED WORTHY"
    3. The escape is to where one can "Stand before the Son of man". Since our Lord has left heaven, but not yet reached the earth, this PLACE of escape is the air above the earth. The TRIAL of the earth encompasses "the WHOLE earth" (Rev.3:10). It will be worse than Noah's day. NOBODY who is ON EARTH will be untouched by it. The days must be shortened because even the "elect" will not survive if they are not.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Walls View Post

      The stark truth is found in Luke 21:36, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

      The truth of the matter is short and simple.
      1. One CANNOT prepare oneself. "ESCAPE" is what is required
      2. Not all will escape. You must be "ACCOUNTED WORTHY"
      3. The escape is to where one can "Stand before the Son of man". Since our Lord has left heaven, but not yet reached the earth, this PLACE of escape is the air above the earth. The TRIAL of the earth encompasses "the WHOLE earth" (Rev.3:10). It will be worse than Noah's day. NOBODY who is ON EARTH will be untouched by it. The days must be shortened because even the "elect" will not survive if they are not.
      Perhaps you are aware of various readings of that passage? Some manuscripts have the Greek word we translate "worthy", while other manuscripts have the Greek word we translated "strength". I believe "strength" is the correct reading. Jesus recommends prayers for strength.

      Also, I agree with your analysis of physical escape. We don't need physical strength to escape; and physical escape isn't meritorious.

      Those who stand before the son of man when he returns are those who believed his word, and put that belief into practice. "Escape" then, in this context, involves what we do while we wait and the focus of our attention. In Paul's epistle to the Ephesians, he tells them "redeem the time for the days are evil." And what he means is "the days are toilsome." During the day it's hard work and toil; and during the evening we struggle with boredom. We are tired when we get home and we want to relax and unwind. Paul recommends that we avoid wasting the time, with distractions; rather, spend the time in personal or group Bible study, prayer, psalming, singing hymns, and etc. But we need the strength to participate in such activities after a hard days work, when the body simply wants to rest.

      For a Christian, one of the deadliest dangers to our faith is apathy.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

        Perhaps you are aware of various readings of that passage? Some manuscripts have the Greek word we translate "worthy", while other manuscripts have the Greek word we translated "strength". I believe "strength" is the correct reading. Jesus recommends prayers for strength.

        Also, I agree with your analysis of physical escape. We don't need physical strength to escape; and physical escape isn't meritorious.

        Those who stand before the son of man when he returns are those who believed his word, and put that belief into practice. "Escape" then, in this context, involves what we do while we wait and the focus of our attention. In Paul's epistle to the Ephesians, he tells them "redeem the time for the days are evil." And what he means is "the days are toilsome." During the day it's hard work and toil; and during the evening we struggle with boredom. We are tired when we get home and we want to relax and unwind. Paul recommends that we avoid wasting the time, with distractions; rather, spend the time in personal or group Bible study, prayer, psalming, singing hymns, and etc. But we need the strength to participate in such activities after a hard days work, when the body simply wants to rest.

        For a Christian, one of the deadliest dangers to our faith is apathy.
        I am aware that the Nestle-Aland critical text sometimes uses a Greek word which we render "strength". Although it does change the sense of the CONDITION for escape, it does not change the meaning of ESCAPE.

        I have trouble with your second paragraph. You agree with my analysis of escape. Then you say that we don't need strength to escape, but that is what the meaning of the verse is. "Pray that you may be accounted strength to escape." Escape is what is to be prayed for, whether the condition of escape is your "strength", or Christ's appreciation of your state of "worthiness". And if we are to pray (whatever rendering you use), why is it not meritorious? And not only in this verses is escape positive. We believe in Jesus to escape damnation and retribution. Noah builds an ark to escape - and this is the command of God. "Flee to the hills" is the command of Jesus in Matthew 24. God commands Joseph and Mary to escape to Egypt. "Escape ... " is the call of the whole Bible.

        To your last paragraph, the context of "escape" is that "day" which comes as a snare upon the "whole earth". The "snare" is physical, the "whole earth" is physical, "men's hearts failing for fear" is physical. Why is not the "escape" physical? In the "beginning" of signs (v.28) we are to "look upward" for our redemption. If I told you that the great dam under whose shadow our village is, has cracks and could go at any time, would you not then ask; "which is the quickest way to escape"? Here in Luke the travail of the "whole earth" is predicted. The language is plain. There is a way out ... BUT ... it is dependent on (i) the strength you have received by prayer (NU), or, (ii) your moral standing before the Lord (Txt. Rec.).

        But, I believe, from the rest of your third paragraph, that you have doubts about the rendering "strength". Why? Because you allude to a type of Christian Living which will make you ACCOUNTED WORTHY. That's the beauty of intelligence (of which I judge you to possess). When the text of any message is plain and logical within its context, and you wish to give it another meaning by convoluting it, you always wonder.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Walls View Post

          I am aware that the Nestle-Aland critical text sometimes uses a Greek word which we render "strength". Although it does change the sense of the CONDITION for escape, it does not change the meaning of ESCAPE.
          It's all part of a bigger idea and the question is, "what do we want God to do for us?" Should ask that God make us worthy? Or should we ask that God grant us strength? To answer this we first need to answer, "What does survival look like?" We are trying to evade eternal damnation. We want to survive so that we might stand blameless before the Lord at his return. "to stand before the Son of Man", that's what escape looks like. So then, we ask the question. Would God grant my request if I asked to be made worthy to stand before the Son of Man? Do we believe in a meritorious salvation? I don't think we do. I think Jesus wants me to pray for strength.

          I have trouble with your second paragraph. You agree with my analysis of escape. Then you say that we don't need strength to escape, but that is what the meaning of the verse is. "Pray that you may be accounted strength to escape." Escape is what is to be prayed for, whether the condition of escape is your "strength", or Christ's appreciation of your state of "worthiness". And if we are to pray (whatever rendering you use), why is it not meritorious? And not only in this verses is escape positive. We believe in Jesus to escape damnation and retribution. Noah builds an ark to escape - and this is the command of God. "Flee to the hills" is the command of Jesus in Matthew 24. God commands Joseph and Mary to escape to Egypt. "Escape ... " is the call of the whole Bible.
          Perhaps I wasn't clear. Supposing we are to pray for strength, we need to be more specific. Do I want God to increase my capacity for exertion or endurance? If he were to grant my request, what kind of strength would he give me: physical, intellectual, or moral strength? Do I want him to give me bigger muscles or do I want him to increase my ability to endure hardship, trials, even boredom?

          But, I believe, from the rest of your third paragraph, that you have doubts about the rendering "strength". Why? Because you allude to a type of Christian Living which will make you ACCOUNTED WORTHY. That's the beauty of intelligence (of which I judge you to possess). When the text of any message is plain and logical within its context, and you wish to give it another meaning by convoluting it, you always wonder.
          Jesus wants us to be on guard and he gives us a couple of examples to illustrate the "devices" by which one may be caught unawares. What kind of "trap" does Jesus have in mind? What type of activities will weigh our hearts down? What is dissipation if isn't me wasting time? How do the worries of life render me unwary?

          I think Jesus wants me to meditate on his words and worship him with all my heart, soul, spirit AND mind. Jesus gives us the general idea. He expects us to figure things out, and apply his teaching to every aspect of our everyday lives.

          No?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

            It's all part of a bigger idea and the question is, "what do we want God to do for us?" Should ask that God make us worthy? Or should we ask that God grant us strength? To answer this we first need to answer, "What does survival look like?" We are trying to evade eternal damnation. We want to survive so that we might stand blameless before the Lord at his return. "to stand before the Son of Man", that's what escape looks like. So then, we ask the question. Would God grant my request if I asked to be made worthy to stand before the Son of Man? Do we believe in a meritorious salvation? I don't think we do. I think Jesus wants me to pray for strength.



            Perhaps I wasn't clear. Supposing we are to pray for strength, we need to be more specific. Do I want God to increase my capacity for exertion or endurance? If he were to grant my request, what kind of strength would he give me: physical, intellectual, or moral strength? Do I want him to give me bigger muscles or do I want him to increase my ability to endure hardship, trials, even boredom?



            Jesus wants us to be on guard and he gives us a couple of examples to illustrate the "devices" by which one may be caught unawares. What kind of "trap" does Jesus have in mind? What type of activities will weigh our hearts down? What is dissipation if isn't me wasting time? How do the worries of life render me unwary?

            I think Jesus wants me to meditate on his words and worship him with all my heart, soul, spirit AND mind. Jesus gives us the general idea. He expects us to figure things out, and apply his teaching to every aspect of our everyday lives.

            No?
            I see your thinking more clearly. Thank you for taking the time to answer. I would like to propose the following. Let us set the Received Text next to the NU within its context. But before we do this, we must define "escape". And rightly you have said that the escape is found in standing before the Son of man. God's purpose with man was to have a physical man in the image of the Man Jesus, subduing and ruling the earth (Gen.1:26-28). The fall of man disqualified him for this. God, being the ALL-mighty, sets in motion a plan of recovery for mankind, and it is tied to another Man - seed of the woman. We generally call this "salvation", but it deserves a better and longer definition because it contains so many aspects, like atonement, reconciliation, justification, rebirth, partaking of the divine life and restoration to being a subduer and ruler. This "salvation" is divided into two parts;
            1. The process of a Substitute paying the just deserts for our condition and opening the way to man returning to the image of Christ (Rom.8:29)
            2. The process of a fallen man cooperating with God to put away selfishness and unrighteousness to make him a just ruler
            In respect of point # 1, the man is helpless and can do nothing for himself. He must believe in God's provision, and this faith causes God to impute all the man needs. The grand picture is the skins provided to Adam and Eve. An innocent creature shed its blood and its "garment", being innocent, became a covering for the guilty. But the garment might set the unclean man right for the presence of an holy God, but it does not change the man. He remains the source of his guilt. So God starts another work with the nature of the guilty. Through a rigorous training, in which the man is to cooperate, the man who all his life chose his own way, is changed to one who is prepared to set aside his own way in favor of God. Because the man is required to cooperate with God in this matter, God, ALL-knowning Maker of this man, sets before the man a REWARD. I'm sure we do not have to dispute this. Many are the scriptures where God rewards men for their cooperation. The Law of Moses is based on reward and loss.

            So when a man is presented with an escape we must discover if this escape falls into the category of point # 1, or pint # 2. Adam and Eve escape by God's total provision, but Noah escape by largely his own effort. Israel escape by killing a Lamb and by Moses, a mediator slapping the Red Sea with his staff. But the Law given less than a year after, requires Israel to fulfill over 620 Laws to, (i) stay alive and not be penalized with death, and (ii) to qualify for ruling the Good Land. The Christian must believe in the Substitutionary Work of Another to escape the Lake of Fire, but when the Church was persecuted in Jerusalem, they were scattered to escape. This scattering was done on their own steam. Now, when God is about to judge the whole earth, and His plagues know no loyalties but subject the whole earth to bitterness and death, He makes a way out for those LOYAL to His cause. That is, the way of escape is made by God but EARNED by being "ACCOUNTED WORTHY" (in the Recieved Text), or being "STRONG ENOUGH" (in the NU text). Either way, the ESCAPE is achieved by being ACCOUNTED with something.

            Now let us set the Received Text alongside the NU and see which makes sense. But since the goal of escape is to "stand before the Son of man", we would do well to discover where He will be. The setting is the Travail of the whole earth. And Matthew 24 tells us what starts this travail and what happens at the end of it. It is started by the Abomination of Desolation that Daniel predicted, and it ends with the "sign" of the Son of man in the sky (Matt.24:15, 29-30). So if one is to escape this terrible trial that encompasses the whole earth, AND the PLACE of escape is standing before the MAN Jesus, then the PLACE where one will stand is the clouds. Our Lord Jesus, the MAN, only exists the clouds when the Tribulation is over. Let us now compare the Received Text and the NU. Luke 21:36;

            Young's Literal Translation
            : "watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

            American Standard Version: "But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

            In BOTH, we are ordered to pray. In BOTH, escape is not guaranteed, for in one we must be worthy and in the other we must have the strength. In BOTH, our goal is to stand before the Son of man. In the Received Text the supplication is that God will judge whether a man is worthy or not to escape. In the NU the supplication is that man must effect, with his strength, his pathway to where the Son of man is. So, if the escape is not guaranteed, what is the danger. What will cause us to miss the escape. It is found in verse 34, "And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts may be weighed down with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day may come on you." The thing that could hinder escape is a MORAL condition, not a condition of physical weakness to get to the clouds!

            You have put forward that the strength is for fortitude in the Tribulation. But then the word "ESCAPE" makes no sense. It should then read; "But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to ENDURE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Or it should read; "But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to SURVIVE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." But this would annul verse 34. You do not have to "take heed to yourselves to be morally upright". You only need to pray to SURVIVE. It becomes a matter of personal strength, not moral condition.

            Maybe you would like to put forward the argument that it needs strength to be morally disciplined, and I would agree. But the goal here is to escape the "whole earth" and escape to where the Son of man is physically.

            And then, maybe I've missed something crucial. That is always a possibility. So, if you find that I have, I would appreciate an answer. Otherwise, let the two appreciations stand next to each other for the other interested readers to decide - just how the Lord wants it (1st Corinthians 14:29 - "And prophets--let two or three speak, and let the others discern").

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Walls View Post

              You have put forward that the strength is for fortitude in the Tribulation.
              Yes. Even if we suppose that some Christians never experience "The Great Tribulation", most if not all Christians experience some form of tribulation in life. They can't help it. Jesus tells his disciples, including you and me, "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved." Christians face hatred, bigotry, insults, mockers, false accusers, loss of promotion, loss of employment, loss of friends, ostracism and difficulty with family members. These are the kinds of pressures and threats that Jesus has in mind. And in order for Christians to endure to the end, they need strength of will, strength of character, strength of conviction, and qualities such as these.

              Not only this, but Jesus recommends that we remain alert. What does this look like? Paul reminds us that we are children of light, and we should always walk in the light of truth. What gives us the strong will to endure the hardships of our walk? We keep our focus on the goal ahead, keeping our minds on things above.

              You do not have to "take heed to yourselves to be morally upright". You only need to pray to SURVIVE. It becomes a matter of personal strength, not moral condition.
              Perhaps my comment about "moral strength" was a bit misleading. I'm not talking about moral discipline. I'm talking about duty and obligation to both our Lord and our own integrity and honor when such things are tested.

              Consider the traditional role of the best man at a wedding. Today the role of the best man is to plan the bachelor party. Traditionally, however, the role of the best man was to offer his "moral support". And what do I mean? In former times, a marriage not only involved the couple but both of their families. Sometimes the couple married for love but most of the time they married for economic reasons, political reasons, or matters of state. The engagement, therefore, is treated as a binding contract. If the bridegroom were to get cold feet at the last moment, attempting to back out of the deal, this would have serious ramifications for the two families. The role of the best man, then, was to temporarily act as the groom's "back bone", acting in the interest of the groom's honor. His friend will help the groom remember what he already knows is true, reminding him of both his obligation, and his moral convictions.

              Fortitude is exactly what we need, and if we don't have it, we should ask God for it. Without that strength or firmness of mind that enables us to encounter trials and tests of faith, we won't make it. We will give up and stop believing. Courage is a essential quality of the believer. Those without courage will not be found in the kingdom. (Revelation 21:8)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
                Yes. Even if we suppose that some Christians never experience "The Great Tribulation", most if not all Christians experience some form of tribulation in life. They can't help it. Jesus tells his disciples, including you and me, "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved." Christians face hatred, bigotry, insults, mockers, false accusers, loss of promotion, loss of employment, loss of friends, ostracism and difficulty with family members. These are the kinds of pressures and threats that Jesus has in mind. And in order for Christians to endure to the end, they need strength of will, strength of character, strength of conviction, and qualities such as these.

                Not only this, but Jesus recommends that we remain alert. What does this look like? Paul reminds us that we are children of light, and we should always walk in the light of truth. What gives us the strong will to endure the hardships of our walk? We keep our focus on the goal ahead, keeping our minds on things above.


                Perhaps my comment about "moral strength" was a bit misleading. I'm not talking about moral discipline. I'm talking about duty and obligation to both our Lord and our own integrity and honor when such things are tested.

                Consider the traditional role of the best man at a wedding. Today the role of the best man is to plan the bachelor party. Traditionally, however, the role of the best man was to offer his "moral support". And what do I mean? In former times, a marriage not only involved the couple but both of their families. Sometimes the couple married for love but most of the time they married for economic reasons, political reasons, or matters of state. The engagement, therefore, is treated as a binding contract. If the bridegroom were to get cold feet at the last moment, attempting to back out of the deal, this would have serious ramifications for the two families. The role of the best man, then, was to temporarily act as the groom's "back bone", acting in the interest of the groom's honor. His friend will help the groom remember what he already knows is true, reminding him of both his obligation, and his moral convictions.

                Fortitude is exactly what we need, and if we don't have it, we should ask God for it. Without that strength or firmness of mind that enables us to encounter trials and tests of faith, we won't make it. We will give up and stop believing. Courage is a essential quality of the believer. Those without courage will not be found in the kingdom. (Revelation 21:8)
                Thank you for your reply. All you have said is true. But we discuss one specific event which is never to be repeated. We discuss a time when the whole earth has God's wrath poured out and no corner is spared. It is a time more devastating than that of Noah. It is a time when those of Israel who are sealed against hurt, would still not survive if the time was not shortened. We talk of a period when Christians who do not escape, without exception, are overcome by the Beast (Rev.13:7). We talk of even those with the power to call down fire from heaven on their enemies, overcome by the Beast (Rev.11). We talk of men dying from fear. We talk of about two thirds of the 8 billion people on earth dying. What "strength" will be the vehicle to "escape"?

                I propose that "strength" will help not a wit. The only solution is ESCAPE. Noah would not have ESCAPED the flood unless he built the Ark. When God's wrath flames, then anybody near gets involved and is in mortal danger. When Korah rebelled, Moses admonished all to "stand clear" lest they too perish in the conflagration.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Walls View Post

                  Thank you for your reply. All you have said is true. But we discuss one specific event which is never to be repeated. We discuss a time when the whole earth has God's wrath poured out and no corner is spared. It is a time more devastating than that of Noah. It is a time when those of Israel who are sealed against hurt, would still not survive if the time was not shortened. We talk of a period when Christians who do not escape, without exception, are overcome by the Beast (Rev.13:7). We talk of even those with the power to call down fire from heaven on their enemies, overcome by the Beast (Rev.11). We talk of men dying from fear. We talk of about two thirds of the 8 billion people on earth dying. What "strength" will be the vehicle to "escape"?

                  I propose that "strength" will help not a wit. The only solution is ESCAPE. Noah would not have ESCAPED the flood unless he built the Ark. When God's wrath flames, then anybody near gets involved and is in mortal danger. When Korah rebelled, Moses admonished all to "stand clear" lest they too perish in the conflagration.
                  But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

                  It would seem that you and I are talking about two completely different dangers. And I suspect that the difference between our views depends on what we think Jesus meant by "all these things." Was Jesus focused on a short period of intense suffering at the hands of the beast? Or was Jesus focused on the 2000+ years between his first coming and his second coming?

                  Jesus speaks about the run-up to his second coming beginning in Luke 21:25 but I think he is finished after Luke 21:33. He talks about signs, and perplexity, and the heavens being shaken. And he tells us that when when we see such things we should understand that the kingdom of God is near.

                  Beginning in verse 34, he makes a new point. Jesus is warning his disciples about a different kind of danger here. The day is coming, for sure. Some will anticipate and expect the day to come, while others will be surprised and caught unawares. It comes "like a trap" in the way a snap-trap works. When the animal triggers the trap mechanism, all escape is cut off in an instant. At the very moment the trap is triggered, all means of escape are eliminated.

                  But we have a problem. As Jesus says, "of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." None of us knows when that day is coming. Those living in the first century didn't know, those living in the 7th century didn't know, those living in the 11th century didn't know and those living today don't know. And yet, Jesus warning to "be alert" applied equally to every believer who lived down through history. A first century believer needed to be alert because he didn't know whether the Lord might come during that time. A 7th century believer needed to remain alert because, who knows? He might have come at that time. Who can know when he might come? He might come in a hundred years from now. But as his disciple, I still face worries of life, and it is just as important for me that I stay alert, as it will be for those who witness his return.

                  So then "all these things" not only includes the short period of intense suffering inflicted by the beast, not only does it include the short run-up to his second coming; it also includes the many hundreds of years down through history, which are filled with everyday worries of life.

                  Right?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                    But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

                    It would seem that you and I are talking about two completely different dangers. And I suspect that the difference between our views depends on what we think Jesus meant by "all these things." Was Jesus focused on a short period of intense suffering at the hands of the beast? Or was Jesus focused on the 2000+ years between his first coming and his second coming?

                    Jesus speaks about the run-up to his second coming beginning in Luke 21:25 but I think he is finished after Luke 21:33. He talks about signs, and perplexity, and the heavens being shaken. And he tells us that when when we see such things we should understand that the kingdom of God is near.

                    Beginning in verse 34, he makes a new point. Jesus is warning his disciples about a different kind of danger here. The day is coming, for sure. Some will anticipate and expect the day to come, while others will be surprised and caught unawares. It comes "like a trap" in the way a snap-trap works. When the animal triggers the trap mechanism, all escape is cut off in an instant. At the very moment the trap is triggered, all means of escape are eliminated.

                    But we have a problem. As Jesus says, "of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." None of us knows when that day is coming. Those living in the first century didn't know, those living in the 7th century didn't know, those living in the 11th century didn't know and those living today don't know. And yet, Jesus warning to "be alert" applied equally to every believer who lived down through history. A first century believer needed to be alert because he didn't know whether the Lord might come during that time. A 7th century believer needed to remain alert because, who knows? He might have come at that time. Who can know when he might come? He might come in a hundred years from now. But as his disciple, I still face worries of life, and it is just as important for me that I stay alert, as it will be for those who witness his return.

                    So then "all these things" not only includes the short period of intense suffering inflicted by the beast, not only does it include the short run-up to his second coming; it also includes the many hundreds of years down through history, which are filled with everyday worries of life.

                    Right?
                    Most of what you say is correct. I do not wish to contend with that. I would rather show the build up of our Lord's prophecy - or, if you like, the natural divisions of the prophecy. Luke 21:24-36 reads;

                    24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
                    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
                    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
                    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
                    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

                    29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
                    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
                    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
                    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
                    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
                    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
                    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
                    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."


                    I included verse 24 to show the end of the prophecy concerning 70 AD. Like Daniel's prophecy of the seventy sevens, and Joel's prophecy of Chapter 2:28-32, the whole New Testament age is passed over. This is because God does not deal with Israel during this time. They are "Lo-ammi" and under chastisement. Jerusalem is a den of Gentiles during this time.

                    Verse 25 starts with a quote from Isaiah 13 where in verse 11 God will punish "the world". Even if you do not agree with this, it occurs in Revelation Chapter 6 and 8. These events are connected with the "Apocalypse" of Jesus as verse 27 attests to. The prophecy of verses 25 to 27 firmly direct ones attention to the events surrounding the appearance of Jesus from the clouds.

                    Verse 28 then takes a step back to when these things "BEGIN" to happen. It says that we, the disciples, must look upward for redemption is at hand. Now, this "redemption" cannot be connected to our faith, repentance and rebirth, for they have already happened at our conversion. The "redemption" spoken of here must be connected to the events of that time. A redemption from the disasters mentioned in the previous verses.

                    Verses 29 to 30 is a parable. Thus, it is for the Church only. When the Church, or the Christians, see the fig tree and "all the trees" shoot forth, looking upward is necessary. Now, in parable, a Tree is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 & Ezekiel 31). The Fig Tree we know is Judah (Matt.21). And "ALL" the Trees must be the Nations. That is, when the Fig Tree gets its leaves and the Nations multiply, this is a sure sign that looking up for one's redemption is needed. Now, the recognition of Israel as a sovereign nation in 1948, is NOT meant by this. It does not say "when you see the Fig Tree ... ." It says when you see it "shoot forth". The Greek means "putting out their leaves as in spring". Now a Tree is one thing, but its leaves are another. The leaves of a Tree are is COVERING - it's GARMENT, as we see from Adam and Eve. And a GARMENT in parable is one's WORKS (e.g. Rev19:8). Now, the WORKS of Judah (or those living in Judea) are dead at the moment because they cannot keep the Law. What is needed to keep the Law is the Temple. The Law is intimately bound with the Temple and the Feasts. So the Fig Tree sprouting forth leaves is when we disciples see the Temple erected in Jerusalem. The Nations too start a set of WORKS - "as the days of Noah" and "as the days of Lot" - violence and sexual aberration.

                    Verse 30 to 31. When we (those to whom the parable is aimed) will know that the "summer", the Millennial Kingdom is near. The building of the Temple will put it at maximum seven years away.

                    Verse 32. "Generation" has two meanings in scripture. (i) It can mean that which is generated, and when applied to men, because of death, it automatically sets a time for that generation. In the case of Israel's slavery in Egypt, a "generation" was a hundred years. But nowhere in scripture is this "time" anchored. It differs all the time. But even that is moot because it produces an absurdity here. "This" generation would have had to live for 2,000 years. So that meaning is not applicable. (ii) It can mean WHAT is generated - that is a continuous "generation" of the same thing. In Genesis 1:11-12 God set an immutable Law. Each living thing with its seed inside itself will "generate" its own kind. This is seen in Matthew 3:7, 12:34 and 23:33. Our Lord called the Jew a "generation of vipers". He alluded to WHAT was generated - men with a serpentine nature. They had come from their fathers who killed the prophets, but our Lord could accuse them of killing the prophets because they belonged to the same GENERATION. This, I judge, is the meaning of "generation" here. The men of the SAME NATURE and which came from the same SOURCE is meant. Then, the word "till" is ominous. It indicates, on the one hand that the "viper" generation would remain till the summer came, but it implies on the other hand, that they will pass before the summer sets in. This can only mean that a massive contingent of Jews will die before the Tribulation is over.

                    Verse 33. In Matthew it is the Law that will not pass UNTIL heaven and earth pass. Once all men are resurrected, which is the case at the White Throne at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, the Law, which made men clean for God, is not needed. The "filth" of the flesh is gone. But here in Luke the Words of Christ NEVER PASS because they are (i) food (John 6). The Tree of Life is needed in New Jerusalem. And (ii) they record the grand work of Christ which will never be forgotten - ever.

                    Verse 34 to 36. Now we come to the verses we differ on. If my understanding of the previous verses is correct, the theme, context and subject is "that day" - the day in which there are signs on earth in the Fig Tree and ALL the Trees, signs in heaven (probably to do with Michael ejecting Lucifer from heaven - Rev.12) and signs on earth of natural and supernatural disasters accompanied by men's travail. The call then is "be not conformed to this world". The men of this world absorb themselves with these things. They bring relief from anxiety, satisfaction of the flesh and distraction. The call to the Christian is "do not seek the world's escape. It will fail. It is "look up, for that is where your safety comes from!" The likeness is Sodom. God has shared His plans with Sodom to Abraham but not Lot. Lot was too absorbed in the everyday ruling of Sodom. Lot should have "looked up" and seen what Abraham was occupied with. Abraham was in Hebron which means fellowship. Lot was probably like many Christians today. He was "vexed" by what was happening in Sodom and tried by political means to change it. But the world is not to be reformed. It is an evil Tree and when God's wrath descends from heaven, one cannot be KEPT in the firestorm. One must "ESCAPE". Lot's attitude determined his end. He was involved in the things of the "well watered valley". He was bothered by the doings of Sodom. He was reluctant to give up on them. But the call by God is SEPARATION, not REFORM.

                    Scripture says a man cannot serve God and mammon. It is one or the other. The call is to be engrossed in the things of God, not the world. You cannot serve in both theaters, and you cannot save the world. The call is; "Look to yourselves". Invest in your moral condition and look up when things get hot. The Son of man will be in the clouds, and angels are ready to "take" you up.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Walls View Post

                      The stark truth is found in Luke 21:36, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

                      The truth of the matter is short and simple.
                      1. One CANNOT prepare oneself. "ESCAPE" is what is required
                      2. Not all will escape. You must be "ACCOUNTED WORTHY"
                      3. The escape is to where one can "Stand before the Son of man". Since our Lord has left heaven, but not yet reached the earth, this PLACE of escape is the air above the earth. The TRIAL of the earth encompasses "the WHOLE earth" (Rev.3:10). It will be worse than Noah's day. NOBODY who is ON EARTH will be untouched by it. The days must be shortened because even the "elect" will not survive if they are not.
                      Yes, one can prepare to escape.
                      The woman or church is to have a place in the wilderness to go to escape the great tribulation. It is her place.
                      Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
                      Noah had to prepare a place of protection, (a big boat) Noah had to gather food, and get ready.
                      Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
                      Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
                      Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
                      Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
                      After Satan found the woman was protected, he went after those that did not prepare.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Escape all these things?
                        KJV Luke 21:34-36 Take heed, yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with the surfeit and cares of this life, so that the Day comes upon you unawares. For as a snare, it will come on all those that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch, ye, therefore and pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and so stand before the Son of Man.
                        NIV Be careful or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation and the anxieties and that Day will close on you unexpectedly, like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.
                        NET Be on your guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down with dissipation and the worries of this life and that Day close down on you like a trap. For it will overtake all who live on the face of the earth. But stay alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that must happen and to stand before the Son of Man.
                        REB Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation and worldly cares, so that the great Day catches you suddenly, like a trap. For that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.

                        This interesting Bible passage requires careful examination. It is obvious that it refers to the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath – the next prophesied event, then eventually, how we will stand in the Presence of Jesus.
                        We are informed that ALL who live on the earth will experience this coming Day. Only those who are ‘accounted worthy’ or ‘have the strength’, will ‘pass (safely) through’ or ‘escape all these things’, ‘that shall come to pass’ or ‘that must happen’.
                        So, this great Day of vengeance and wrath, will happen and judging by the current world situation, especially in the Middle East, that may be quite soon.

                        This Day ‘will come upon everyone on earth’, so it is incorrect to say that it is possible to ‘escape all these things’. We will not be ‘raptured’, or taken to a ‘place of safety’ on that Day. We are told to pray for strength and stay alert during this terrifying time. Before it happens, in the short time that we have left of the present dispensation, we ‘must not let worldly cares weigh us down’, so that the Day does not catch us without fore warning and unprepared. If you know what is coming, you are not shocked and terrified, you make preparations, you stay calm, trusting in God to keep you safe. Isaiah 30:15
                        Therefore the REB gives the correct translation.

                        To recap: many prophesies speak of this great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, which will come suddenly and unexpectedly upon the whole world. What best fits the descriptions?
                        Nuclear explosions? No, because even a large bomb only destroys up to a certain radius.
                        Comet strike? Possible, as that would cause worldwide effects. This will happen during the Tribulation period. Revelation 8:8-11.
                        Coronal mass ejection? Yes, a massive CME fits all the prophecies and does not leave radiation.
                        Isaiah 30:26a....the sun will shine with seven times its usual brightness.....
                        No other explanation that a CME can be inferred from that prophecy. But then;
                        Isaiah 30:26b... on the Day the Lord heals His people....

                        The promise is given that on this Day, the Lord will save and protect His righteous people.
                        Joel 3:16 The Lord roars from Zion and thunders from Jerusalem, so that the heaven and the earth shudder, but He is a refuge for His people, a defense for the Israelites. [the Lord's faithful Christian people]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I find there are two main things that cause the problems of the Great Tribulation, there may be more, but this is what I see now, cold and war.
                          Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
                          Job 38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
                          For the last two years we have been going into a Grand Solar Minimum, the sun becomes inactive and cools down a little. Some say it might be a mini ice age again. The last one, about 200 years ago, in 1816 they had a year without a summer. Around the world some people starved. Our growing season has gotten shorter for the last two years. Last year there were floods in the grow area up north. Year before last there was a lot of snow. Planting was late, if they planted at all, crops suffered.
                          What I am saying is that the cold can cause famine and starvation. What can we do to keep from starving? Get food to eat. What can we do when it is cold. We can have a way to keep warm. You might say, God will provide for me, I agree, God will provide. The stores have plenty, and He has provided a way to buy it.
                          Time is getting close, please prepare.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by T W Taylor View Post

                            Yes, one can prepare to escape.
                            The woman or church is to have a place in the wilderness to go to escape the great tribulation. It is her place.
                            Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
                            Noah had to prepare a place of protection, (a big boat) Noah had to gather food, and get ready.
                            Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
                            Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
                            Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
                            Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
                            After Satan found the woman was protected, he went after those that did not prepare.
                            There is nothing in the text that says they didn't prepare or that they did anything wrong. He simply begins the GT of persecution against Christians who God allows to be overcome and killed. Not all are killed but many will be.
                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                              There is nothing in the text that says they didn't prepare or that they did anything wrong. He simply begins the GT of persecution against Christians who God allows to be overcome and killed. Not all are killed but many will be.
                              I think there will more persecution in the cities, perhaps that is why the woman flees to the wilderness to be protected.

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