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  • how important Postrib is in Revelation?

    A Chinese Christian mystic named Watchman Nee was one of my favorite authors. He studied the book of Revelation, as he no doubt did every book of the Bible.

    And though we do not agree on the Postrib Rapture of the Church he said something I very much agree with. He basically said that he refused to do a complete commentary on the whole book of Revelation, to explain every verse.

    It's not that this would be wrong, but he makes a point. He wanted to focus on passages that he actually experienced, knowing that if he experienced it he could use that same word to convey a spiritual experience to others.

    The point is, the book of Revelation is like everything else in God's Kingdom. It is a word designed to bring us into an experience with God. If prophecy ever becomes too much of an intellectual exercise, void of God's Spirit, you're missing the mark.

    Every bit of Revelation is designed to hold you in God's company. Every bit of it is designed to bring you into a deep experience with Him and to keep you there, protected from enemies.

    We know who our enemies are, if we are Christians. They can be others, they can be ourselves, and they can be the Devil. But if we keep our eye on God's word, and understand that obeying it is the pathway to fellowship with God, we will never fall very far away. We will always find the way back, and will learn how to stay true.

    That being said, I feel confident that Nee's view of the Rapture was wrong, that we will escape the trials of this world, that we can escape the Antichrists of our age. The purpose of the book of Revelation is to encourage us to walk with God through our daily troubles, knowing that He who is in us is greater than the one who is in the world. We can face the Antichrists of our times with courage and devotion. It is enough to know God is with us, guiding us through it all.

  • #2
    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    A Chinese Christian mystic named Watchman Nee was one of my favorite authors. He studied the book of Revelation, as he no doubt did every book of the Bible.

    And though we do not agree on the Postrib Rapture of the Church he said something I very much agree with. He basically said that he refused to do a complete commentary on the whole book of Revelation, to explain every verse.

    It's not that this would be wrong, but he makes a point. He wanted to focus on passages that he actually experienced, knowing that if he experienced it he could use that same word to convey a spiritual experience to others.

    The point is, the book of Revelation is like everything else in God's Kingdom. It is a word designed to bring us into an experience with God. If prophecy ever becomes too much of an intellectual exercise, void of God's Spirit, you're missing the mark.

    Every bit of Revelation is designed to hold you in God's company. Every bit of it is designed to bring you into a deep experience with Him and to keep you there, protected from enemies.

    We know who our enemies are, if we are Christians. They can be others, they can be ourselves, and they can be the Devil. But if we keep our eye on God's word, and understand that obeying it is the pathway to fellowship with God, we will never fall very far away. We will always find the way back, and will learn how to stay true.

    That being said, I feel confident that Nee's view of the Rapture was wrong, that we will escape the trials of this world, that we can escape the Antichrists of our age. The purpose of the book of Revelation is to encourage us to walk with God through our daily troubles, knowing that He who is in us is greater than the one who is in the world. We can face the Antichrists of our times with courage and devotion. It is enough to know God is with us, guiding us through it all.
    I don't agree with Watchman Nee's approach to Bible study, since it seems to place a greater value on knowledge we gain by experience, over knowledge we gain by revelation, or reasoned argument.

    That out of the way, allow me to give a simple graphic indicating when I think the rapture takes place with respect to the seals, trumpets, and bowls.

    Sequence:
    1. Seals
    2. Trumpets
    3. Rapture
    4. Bowls
    I'm still figuring this out. What do you think?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by randyk View Post
      A Chinese Christian mystic named Watchman Nee was one of my favorite authors. He studied the book of Revelation, as he no doubt did every book of the Bible.

      And though we do not agree on the Postrib Rapture of the Church he said something I very much agree with. He basically said that he refused to do a complete commentary on the whole book of Revelation, to explain every verse.

      It's not that this would be wrong, but he makes a point. He wanted to focus on passages that he actually experienced, knowing that if he experienced it he could use that same word to convey a spiritual experience to others.

      The point is, the book of Revelation is like everything else in God's Kingdom. It is a word designed to bring us into an experience with God. If prophecy ever becomes too much of an intellectual exercise, void of God's Spirit, you're missing the mark.

      Every bit of Revelation is designed to hold you in God's company. Every bit of it is designed to bring you into a deep experience with Him and to keep you there, protected from enemies.

      We know who our enemies are, if we are Christians. They can be others, they can be ourselves, and they can be the Devil. But if we keep our eye on God's word, and understand that obeying it is the pathway to fellowship with God, we will never fall very far away. We will always find the way back, and will learn how to stay true.

      That being said, I feel confident that Nee's view of the Rapture was wrong, that we will escape the trials of this world, that we can escape the Antichrists of our age. The purpose of the book of Revelation is to encourage us to walk with God through our daily troubles, knowing that He who is in us is greater than the one who is in the world. We can face the Antichrists of our times with courage and devotion. It is enough to know God is with us, guiding us through it all.
      I don't agree with Watchman Nee's approach to Bible study, since it seems to place a greater value on knowledge we gain by experience, over knowledge we gain by revelation, or reasoned argument.

      That out of the way, allow me to give a simple graphic indicating when I think the rapture takes place with respect to the seals, trumpets, and bowls.

      Sequence:
      1. Seals
      2. Trumpets
      3. Rapture
      4. Bowls
      I'm still figuring this out. What do you think?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by randyk View Post
        A Chinese Christian mystic named Watchman Nee was one of my favorite authors. He studied the book of Revelation, as he no doubt did every book of the Bible.

        And though we do not agree on the Postrib Rapture of the Church he said something I very much agree with. He basically said that he refused to do a complete commentary on the whole book of Revelation, to explain every verse.

        It's not that this would be wrong, but he makes a point. He wanted to focus on passages that he actually experienced, knowing that if he experienced it he could use that same word to convey a spiritual experience to others.

        The point is, the book of Revelation is like everything else in God's Kingdom. It is a word designed to bring us into an experience with God. If prophecy ever becomes too much of an intellectual exercise, void of God's Spirit, you're missing the mark.

        Every bit of Revelation is designed to hold you in God's company. Every bit of it is designed to bring you into a deep experience with Him and to keep you there, protected from enemies.

        We know who our enemies are, if we are Christians. They can be others, they can be ourselves, and they can be the Devil. But if we keep our eye on God's word, and understand that obeying it is the pathway to fellowship with God, we will never fall very far away. We will always find the way back, and will learn how to stay true.

        That being said, I feel confident that Nee's view of the Rapture was wrong, that we will escape the trials of this world, that we can escape the Antichrists of our age. The purpose of the book of Revelation is to encourage us to walk with God through our daily troubles, knowing that He who is in us is greater than the one who is in the world. We can face the Antichrists of our times with courage and devotion. It is enough to know God is with us, guiding us through it all.
        Who is going to be raptured? Not those that belong to Christ in John 17, Jesus prays not to take them out of this world. Not the Elect, That time will be shortened for the Elect’s sake, they will be here. I will be here. I wouldn’t want to leave and my family suffer without my help
        John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
        Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
        Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by T W Taylor View Post

          Who is going to be raptured? Not those that belong to Christ in John 17, Jesus prays not to take them out of this world. Not the Elect, That time will be shortened for the Elect’s sake, they will be here. I will be here. I wouldn’t want to leave and my family suffer without my help
          John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
          Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
          Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
          The Lord's prayer in John 17 concerns the Church age, not the Trial that will come upon the whole earth at the end of the age. The word "world" in John 17 is "kosmos" meaning, "the arrangement of things". The word in Revelation 3:10 is "Oikoumeni", meaning, "the terrene part of the earth", or "the (inhabited) dry land of the earth".

          Matthew 24:1-31 concerns all things Jewish - the Temple, The Law, the Sabbath, Judea, Jerusalem, the Jewish prophets Daniel, the prophecy of Daniel of "his people" and the the last 3.5 years of this age. The "elect" in this section are Jews, not only because of the context, but because only Jews were scattered to the "four winds".

          I do not say that Christians will not pass through the Great Tribulation, but Matthew 24:1-31 concerns Jews.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

            I don't agree with Watchman Nee's approach to Bible study, since it seems to place a greater value on knowledge we gain by experience, over knowledge we gain by revelation, or reasoned argument.

            That out of the way, allow me to give a simple graphic indicating when I think the rapture takes place with respect to the seals, trumpets, and bowls.

            Sequence:
            1. Seals
            2. Trumpets
            3. Rapture
            4. Bowls
            I'm still figuring this out. What do you think?
            Your point about Nee and your sequence of events are all reasonable. I would only suggest the following (since I'm so favorable to Nee).

            It may be that you can have both revelational experience and revelational truth at the same time. I do agree with you that revelation is concerned with objective truth and knowledge, and not strictly limited to experience.

            I just think Nee was focused on the *experiential* aspect of knowledge, without excluding objective truth. But your point is very well taken by me! Your point is a very important point, I believe. If we are to expose errors, we must view revelation not just as an experience, but as a truth to protect that experience.

            Since spiritual truth is indeed "spiritual," it certainly must always be "experiential," even when it represents objective truth. It at the very least protects our experience with God. But it must somehow also reflect the spirituality that is associated with God--otherwise, how would we know it came from God? But I do know what you mean, and agree at least as indicated.

            On the matter of the sequence, I understand and appreciate your view of the Rapture before the Bowls because we are promised escape from judgment at Christ's Coming. The Bowls reflect the Judgment, and t he Rapture would precede that Judgment. This is the same argument utilized by all the Pre-Wrath people.

            However, I see this "Judgment" in the grander sense of "Eternal Judgment." Christ is coming back to bring death across the world through Armageddon--a death that for many will lead to eternal punishment. Christians will be spared from that, but not from death in the war itself.

            So no, I do think the Rapture will *follow* the Judgment of Armageddon. The "judgment" Christians will escape from is the "eternal judgment" that death will lead to for many who reject Christ as their source of salvation. Christians will indeed die at Armageddon, but will never be judged. Rather, they will be viewed as though innocent casualties, or victims of "friendly fire."

            This is just how I see it presently. I don't see as much a world-wide Rapture of surviving Christians as a world-wide resurrection of the departed saints. Remember that in Enoch's time only he was "raptured." And in Elijah's time only he was "raptured."

            And Jesus said, "when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?" And so, in the backslidden state of Christianity in these last times, there will be relative few genuine Christians, walking with the Lord. Many of them will likely be killed in what I think will be WW3. Those who survive will be few, just as Enoch and Elijah were in their time. And these few survivors will participate in the Rapture. But I remain open on the subject.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by randyk View Post

              Your point about Nee and your sequence of events are all reasonable. I would only suggest the following (since I'm so favorable to Nee).

              It may be that you can have both revelational experience and revelational truth at the same time. I do agree with you that revelation is concerned with objective truth and knowledge, and not strictly limited to experience.

              I just think Nee was focused on the *experiential* aspect of knowledge, without excluding objective truth. But your point is very well taken by me! Your point is a very important point, I believe. If we are to expose errors, we must view revelation not just as an experience, but as a truth to protect that experience.

              Since spiritual truth is indeed "spiritual," it certainly must always be "experiential," even when it represents objective truth. It at the very least protects our experience with God. But it must somehow also reflect the spirituality that is associated with God--otherwise, how would we know it came from God? But I do know what you mean, and agree at least as indicated.

              On the matter of the sequence, I understand and appreciate your view of the Rapture before the Bowls because we are promised escape from judgment at Christ's Coming. The Bowls reflect the Judgment, and t he Rapture would precede that Judgment. This is the same argument utilized by all the Pre-Wrath people.

              However, I see this "Judgment" in the grander sense of "Eternal Judgment." Christ is coming back to bring death across the world through Armageddon--a death that for many will lead to eternal punishment. Christians will be spared from that, but not from death in the war itself.

              So no, I do think the Rapture will *follow* the Judgment of Armageddon. The "judgment" Christians will escape from is the "eternal judgment" that death will lead to for many who reject Christ as their source of salvation. Christians will indeed die at Armageddon, but will never be judged. Rather, they will be viewed as though innocent casualties, or victims of "friendly fire."

              This is just how I see it presently. I don't see as much a world-wide Rapture of surviving Christians as a world-wide resurrection of the departed saints. Remember that in Enoch's time only he was "raptured." And in Elijah's time only he was "raptured."

              And Jesus said, "when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?" And so, in the backslidden state of Christianity in these last times, there will be relative few genuine Christians, walking with the Lord. Many of them will likely be killed in what I think will be WW3. Those who survive will be few, just as Enoch and Elijah were in their time. And these few survivors will participate in the Rapture. But I remain open on the subject.
              Forgive me, what did you mean by the statement in bold? From what I understand, all those who follow Christ whether they have passed on or they are still alive, will participate in the rapture. What am I missing? Is the rapture different than the resurrection?

              Also, with regard to our eternal reward, isn't that "post" everything?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by T W Taylor View Post

                Who is going to be raptured? Not those that belong to Christ in John 17, Jesus prays not to take them out of this world. Not the Elect, That time will be shortened for the Elect’s sake, they will be here. I will be here. I wouldn’t want to leave and my family suffer without my help
                John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
                Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
                Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
                Can I ask you the same question? In your view, is there a difference between rapture and resurrection?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by randyk View Post
                  A Chinese Christian mystic named Watchman Nee was one of my favorite authors. He studied the book of Revelation, as he no doubt did every book of the Bible.

                  And though we do not agree on the Postrib Rapture of the Church he said something I very much agree with. He basically said that he refused to do a complete commentary on the whole book of Revelation, to explain every verse.

                  It's not that this would be wrong, but he makes a point. He wanted to focus on passages that he actually experienced, knowing that if he experienced it he could use that same word to convey a spiritual experience to others.

                  The point is, the book of Revelation is like everything else in God's Kingdom. It is a word designed to bring us into an experience with God. If prophecy ever becomes too much of an intellectual exercise, void of God's Spirit, you're missing the mark.

                  Every bit of Revelation is designed to hold you in God's company. Every bit of it is designed to bring you into a deep experience with Him and to keep you there, protected from enemies.

                  We know who our enemies are, if we are Christians. They can be others, they can be ourselves, and they can be the Devil. But if we keep our eye on God's word, and understand that obeying it is the pathway to fellowship with God, we will never fall very far away. We will always find the way back, and will learn how to stay true.

                  That being said, I feel confident that Nee's view of the Rapture was wrong, that we will escape the trials of this world, that we can escape the Antichrists of our age. The purpose of the book of Revelation is to encourage us to walk with God through our daily troubles, knowing that He who is in us is greater than the one who is in the world. We can face the Antichrists of our times with courage and devotion. It is enough to know God is with us, guiding us through it all.
                  I feel the same way as Nee I don’t study revelation as a whole I study parts of it like separate events and characters as I don’t believe that revelation is in chronological order. Revelation is a message and when we study separate events we understand that message.

                  I like what you said about the antichrist of our time. John who was the only biblical writer to mention the term antichrist taught us that there is no single antichrist but that it is a spirit who denies that Jesus is the Christ thus we all have an antichrist of our time

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                    Forgive me, what did you mean by the statement in bold? From what I understand, all those who follow Christ whether they have passed on or they are still alive, will participate in the rapture. What am I missing? Is the rapture different than the resurrection?

                    Also, with regard to our eternal reward, isn't that "post" everything?
                    Yes, eternal reward is after Christ's Coming, after Armageddon, after the End of the Age. What we often call "the Rapture" has 2 groups, and not just 1. 1st, there are the deceased, the "dead in Christ," who will be raised from the dead and be glorified when they meet Christ in the clouds. And 2nd, those who survive Armageddon, who are true-blue committed and practicing Christians, will also be caught up with them, to receive their glorified bodies as well.

                    My point is, the Church will go through Armageddon, and not be caught out prior, as the Pre-Wrath people say. This means that with mass-death on earth, and with persecution of genuine Christians, there will be relative few true-blue Christians on earth to participate in the Rapture of those who still remain alive. I hope this helps you understand my position.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by marty fox View Post

                      I feel the same way as Nee I don’t study revelation as a whole I study parts of it like separate events and characters as I don’t believe that revelation is in chronological order. Revelation is a message and when we study separate events we understand that message.

                      I like what you said about the antichrist of our time. John who was the only biblical writer to mention the term antichrist taught us that there is no single antichrist but that it is a spirit who denies that Jesus is the Christ thus we all have an antichrist of our time
                      Although I do believe in a literal Antichrist Kingdom at the end of the age, I fully agree with the sentiment of your post. One, I love seeing the word of God as having as its primary purpose an entrance door into God's presence. Two, I believe Jesus treated eschatology in a way that diminishes excessive speculation about the future. This means we *must* be alert to the Antichrists of our own time, rather than speculate about the future. There are plenty of them to take note of, and to warn fellow believers about!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by T W Taylor View Post

                        Who is going to be raptured? Not those that belong to Christ in John 17, Jesus prays not to take them out of this world. Not the Elect, That time will be shortened for the Elect’s sake, they will be here. I will be here. I wouldn’t want to leave and my family suffer without my help
                        John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
                        Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
                        Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
                        Well, my thought is that those *in Christ's time* were not taken out of the world, but left to suffer persecution in the world. But at the end of the age, when the dead in Christ are raised up from the dead to be glorified with Christ, there will be some remaining Christians who will survive Armageddon and will then participate with them in this glorification event.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by randyk View Post

                          Yes, eternal reward is after Christ's Coming, after Armageddon, after the End of the Age. What we often call "the Rapture" has 2 groups, and not just 1. 1st, there are the deceased, the "dead in Christ," who will be raised from the dead and be glorified when they meet Christ in the clouds. And 2nd, those who survive Armageddon, who are true-blue committed and practicing Christians, will also be caught up with them, to receive their glorified bodies as well.

                          My point is, the Church will go through Armageddon, and not be caught out prior, as the Pre-Wrath people say. This means that with mass-death on earth, and with persecution of genuine Christians, there will be relative few true-blue Christians on earth to participate in the Rapture of those who still remain alive. I hope this helps you understand my position.
                          I have never heard the "two group" theory.

                          I thought, perhaps, that you were making a distinction between the rapture and the resurrection?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by randyk View Post

                            Yes, eternal reward is after Christ's Coming, after Armageddon, after the End of the Age. What we often call "the Rapture" has 2 groups, and not just 1. 1st, there are the deceased, the "dead in Christ," who will be raised from the dead and be glorified when they meet Christ in the clouds. And 2nd, those who survive Armageddon, who are true-blue committed and practicing Christians, will also be caught up with them, to receive their glorified bodies as well.

                            My point is, the Church will go through Armageddon, and not be caught out prior, as the Pre-Wrath people say. This means that with mass-death on earth, and with persecution of genuine Christians, there will be relative few true-blue Christians on earth to participate in the Rapture of those who still remain alive. I hope this helps you understand my position.
                            Except for the fact that the resurrection of the Saints and wicked (Rev 20:12-13) is written after the events of the battle of Armageddon, how can you be certain that the events are not in reverse order?

                            We know that the dead in Christ will rise before those that alive and remain are changed. But the events in Rev 20:12-13 show that the resurrection of saints and wicked occurred together, as written below in Rev 20:12-13.

                            Could the order of events be:
                            1) The resurrection of the dead (both saints & wicked)
                            2) The resurrected saints caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
                            3) Those alive and remain in Christ is caught up to meet the Lord and them in the air
                            4) Then rest of the wicked that are still alive, join in the battle of Armageddon to battle the Lord
                            5) Then the fire comes down from heaven and devours all of them
                            6) GWT of Judgement

                            Rev 20:
                            8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
                            9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
                            12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
                            13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

                            The resurrection of the dead occurs before the alive and remain are changed.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                              I have never heard the "two group" theory.

                              I thought, perhaps, that you were making a distinction between the rapture and the resurrection?
                              We are apparently having confusion over the terminology. When Christ comes back he will 1) raise Christians and OT saints from the dead, and 2) translate/rapture Christian survivors of Armageddon to Christ in the clouds. This is, according to Paul, a single event. We may call the whole thing the Resurrection, the Rapture, or the Hope of the Church. It all refers to the same event.

                              Technically, I suppose, the Rapture would refer only to those who are translated while still alive. But inasmuch as it all takes place in a second, both the Rapture and the Resurrection, we may call it either, as denoting a single event.

                              Perhaps the confusion over terminology stems from the fact that the development of the thought gradually changes with new details. Initially, we read in Dan 7 that the Son of Man comes with the clouds and gives victory to the saints in Israel. Later, in Dan 12, we see that it will involve a resurrection event, as well as an awards event.

                              Then, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus obviously refers to the exact same event, the Coming of the Son of Man from heaven, and indicates that angels will be sent out to gather the elect of Israel throughout the world, due to the Jewish exile. At this point, Jesus is speaking still under the Law when Israel alone represents God's People.

                              Finally, Paul refers to the exact same event, the Coming of t he Son of Man from heaven, but now recognizes that the elect, or Christians, in Israel, have now expanded to include Christians from all nations. Thus, Christ comes not just to gather the scattered elect of Israel, but also the elect of God from all nations. And again, the assumption is made that this involves both a resurrection and an awards event. That is, those who have died will be brought back to life to be rewarded, and those who remain alive will be brought along to be awarded, as well.

                              As you can see, biblically, it is described as a single event. It's an awards ceremony designed to ultimately rescue an Israeli remnant and elect remnants from all nations, so that those nations can be reconstituted into nations that submit to Christ's Kingdom. The Church from all nations represent the judges who determine the legitimacy of this shift, by virtue of their own faithful testimony to Christian righteousness.

                              Comment

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