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  • When is Israel's blindness removed?

    The question needs to be asked, "When does Israel's blindness end? "

    Rom 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    1. Does their blindness end when the 70th week begins?

    2. Does blindness end when the covenant is confirmed?

    3. Does it end when the great tribulation begins?

    4. Does it end when the great tribulation ends?

    5. Does it end when the man of sin is revealed?

    6. Does it end when the rapture takes place?

    7. Does it not end until Armageddon?

    When we read the full context of the Romans 11 passage, we find that partial blindness is to be replaced by no blindness at all. But, two questions must be answered.

    A. What is that blindness?

    B. And how is it to be removed?

    Romans 11 answers both questions in one fell swoop.



    [B.].The Deliverer shall come to Zion, and [A.] turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

    What Paul is saying is that [partial] blindness equates to ungodliness. Contrariwise, the blindness is removed when ALL OF ISRAEL, is walking in godliness. Paul goes even further to say that it is the Deliverer coming to Zion that will accomplish that purpose.

    The implication is that Israel's blindness and Gentile fullness are intricately related. Both must be simultaneously true. The underlying premise of pretrib is that God deals with the church, THEN, when finished, he deals again with Israel. But is that true? What constitutes "dealing with the church" and "dealing [only] with Israel "?

    I think this is where the problem lies. UNTIL ungodliness has been removed from Jacob, the fullness of Gentiles has not come in. Ask yourself these questions, CAN THE CHURCH STILL BE HERE IF...

    1. a covenant is confirmed with an ungodly nation?

    2. ritual sacrifices take place on temple mount by an ungodly nation?

    3. ungodliness pervades the people of God?

    How is God going to turn away ungodliness from Jacob?


    Eze 39:25-26 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the WHOLE HOUSE of ISRAEL, and will be jealous for my holy name; AFTER that they have BORNE their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

    This will be nothing short of when God begins to bring judgment of Jerusalem and the ensuing great tribulaion.
    Jer 25:29-30 KJV For, lo, I BEGIN to bring EVIL on the CITY which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them,

    The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout,

    as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

    Do you see what was said there? THE LORD HIMSELF, shall utter his voice from his holy habitation of Jerusalem...

    [Saying] The Lord has a controversy with ALL the nations and a sword shall go forth into all the nations, aka, the mark of the beast. Do other scriptures support the idea that the Lord will come to Zion and utter his voice? Yes!

    Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall UTTER his VOICE before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


    Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and UTTER his VOICE from JERUSALEM; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people,


    Amo 1:2 KJV And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and UTTER his VOICE from JERUSALEM; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

    I know that few will be able to grasp the thought of the Lord coming to Zion at anytime before the 2nd advent at Armageddon, but this will be the jixt of what the great tribulation is all about... removing ungodliness from Jacob.

    Mat 24:16 KJV Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:...

    Mat 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Joel 2 & 3 equates that day, when the Lord shall utter his voice from Jerusalem with:

    1. Shaking the heavens and the earth, and,

    2. The day of the Lord's wrath.

    This is what we see with the opening of the 6th seal:

    Rev 6:14 KJV And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    Rev 6:17 KJV For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    It's right there in scripture and yet people still miss it.

    1Th 4:16 KJV For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Does Israel's blindness remain in part UNTIL the 2nd advent? Then so will the rapture not happen until then. Does the removal of ungodliness from Jacob mean that they will be saved by keeping the law rather than by faith? Absolutely not. Keeping the law of God will be their schoolmaster that brings them to faith in Christ. Without faith they will not be heirs according to the promise made to Abraham. They will not be allowed to enter the promised land until they come to faith.

    Rom 11:27 KJV For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    Be Blessed

    The PuP

  • #2
    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    The question needs to be asked, "When does Israel's blindness end? "

    Rom 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    Israel's blindness ends when Christ comes back, when Jesus *reveals himself* to the world as the judge of the whole earth. How will Israel be unable to see who Jesus is when he comes back in judgment, both to judge the nations for the way they treated Israel, and to restore Israel to her proper theocracy?

    Originally posted by Pesachpup
    1. Does their blindness end when the 70th week begins?
    The 70th Week began at the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry, in around 26 AD.

    Originally posted by Pesachpup
    2. Does blindness end when the covenant is confirmed?
    The covenant that was confirmed in Dan 9 was Christ's confirmation of God's covenant with Israel, 1st through the Law, and afterwards through his being "cut off" under the Law.

    Originally posted by Pesachpup
    3. Does it end when the great tribulation begins?
    The Great Tribulation, mentioned in the Olivet Discourse, is the NT history of Israel, in which she has suffered the loss of her national status with God from the time she rejected her Messiah until the time Jesus returns.

    Originally posted by Pesachpup
    4. Does it end when the great tribulation ends?
    Yes, Israel's blindness ends when her national punishment--her exile--ends.

    Originally posted by Pesachpup
    5. Does it end when the man of sin is revealed?
    No, like many of the nations Israel also will be deceived by the lawless one. Only the Christian remnants among the nations, including the Christian remnant of Israel, will see.

    Originally posted by Pesachpup
    6. Does it end when the rapture takes place?
    The Rapture of the Church takes place after the judgment of Armageddon. The dead saints, who were unfortunate casualties of the war, will rise again to be glorified. Those who survive will join in this glorification event. The Christians in Israel will participate in the same way Christians in other nations will participate. Israel's national restoration and reconciliation with God follows.

    Originally posted by Pesachpup
    7. Does it not end until Armageddon?
    Correct, Israel's national restoration follows Armageddon, which is a judgment against all nations, including Israel.

    Originally posted by Pesachpup
    When we read the full context of the Romans 11 passage, we find that partial blindness is to be replaced by no blindness at all. But, two questions must be answered.

    A. What is that blindness?

    B. And how is it to be removed?
    The partial blindness of Israel is the determination, among a majority of Jews, to follow religions other than Christianity. The small portion that is Christian is not blind at all.

    The national blindness of Israel, which involves the majority of nonChristians in Israel, will be removed when Christ comes back. Many hardened unbelievers will be judged and killed at Armageddon. Those who remain alive will be open to the revelation of Christ at his Coming.

    The restoration of all Israel is not an exhaustive spiritual salvation of every individual in Israel, but rather, the implementation of a national policy embracing Christianity on behalf of all of the citizens of Israel. This will enable the national salvation of Israel in the sense of final deliverance from her political enemies.

    It will, of course, include the genuine conversion of many Jews to Christianity. But as always, there will be nominal Christians and genuine spiritual Christians. The important thing to note is that the entire country will embrace Christian religious policy, enabling God to restore the entire nation to His good graces.

    God promised Israel under the Law that He would bless and restore the nation when they, as a people, repent of their backsliding and embrace Him alone as the true God. When Israel, as a nation, adopts Christianity, God will be able to bless the nation once again, adopt them as His people once again, and give them favored status as a nation. But this will also be true for every nation who at that time does the same.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
      The question needs to be asked, "When does Israel's blindness end? "

      Rom 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
      ...

      Be Blessed

      The PuP
      The answer is before you. "... until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in". The Gentiles ruled the earth until Joshua's conquest of Canaan. For just under 1,000 years, Jerusalem, city of the great King, was untouchable. With Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Jerusalem, the Gentiles again ruled the world. That rule is predicted to end when Christ returns (e.g. Daniel 2:44). The end of Gentile rule is Armageddon - which takes place a day, or a few days after our Lord Jesus touches down on Mount Olives and rescues Jerusalem.

      Comment


      • #4
        It was lifted at the cross on Pentecost. Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
          It was lifted at the cross on Pentecost. Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
          Let's do the maths. It was the Feast of Weeks. Historians calculate that the population of Jerusalem and surrounding area during such a feast would swell to almost 2 million people. And the Bible records these sojourners of every nation "devout" (otherwise they would not make the journey to fulfill the Law and be in Jerusalem for the Feast). But let us be conservative and cut that number in half - say, 1 million "devout" Israelites. 3,000 divided by 1 million gives 0.3%. Let's add the 5,000 of Acts 4, which would give 0.8% of the population that were "devout", and let's double it to cover what was happening day to day. We come to the grand figure of 1.6% of devout men of Israel.

          Then we must not forget the diaspora. Ten tribes were absorbed by Assyria and dispersed - never to return. Pure maths without demographics says that this was 83% of Israel. The Babylonian deportation took the the other 17%. Of this 17%, 2.5% returned. In the flurry of figures I get 0.425% of total Israel lived in Israel at the time of Pentecost. That leaves 99.5% of Israel in the dispersion. How many have turned to Christ over the years we cannot tell, but judging from the Pentecost figures (which are optimistic because the men were "devout") we have to say that 98% of all Israelites in the world refuse Christ. The figure, no doubt, varies. But when over 95 % of a nation refuse their Messiah, "blindness" for that nation is established.

          And then, to settle it all, Romans 11:7-8 say that this blindness is given by God. I dare say that the blindness of Israel is lifted when God lifts it - "when the times of the Gentiles are full".

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
            The question needs to be asked, "When does Israel's blindness end? "

            Rom 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

            1. Does their blindness end when the 70th week begins?

            2. Does blindness end when the covenant is confirmed?

            3. Does it end when the great tribulation begins?

            4. Does it end when the great tribulation ends?

            5. Does it end when the man of sin is revealed?

            6. Does it end when the rapture takes place?

            7. Does it not end until Armageddon?

            When we read the full context of the Romans 11 passage, we find that partial blindness is to be replaced by no blindness at all. But, two questions must be answered.

            A. What is that blindness?

            B. And how is it to be removed?

            Romans 11 answers both questions in one fell swoop.



            [B.].The Deliverer shall come to Zion, and [A.] turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

            What Paul is saying is that [partial] blindness equates to ungodliness. Contrariwise, the blindness is removed when ALL OF ISRAEL, is walking in godliness. Paul goes even further to say that it is the Deliverer coming to Zion that will accomplish that purpose.

            The implication is that Israel's blindness and Gentile fullness are intricately related. Both must be simultaneously true. The underlying premise of pretrib is that God deals with the church, THEN, when finished, he deals again with Israel. But is that true? What constitutes "dealing with the church" and "dealing [only] with Israel "?

            I think this is where the problem lies. UNTIL ungodliness has been removed from Jacob, the fullness of Gentiles has not come in. Ask yourself these questions, CAN THE CHURCH STILL BE HERE IF...

            1. a covenant is confirmed with an ungodly nation?

            2. ritual sacrifices take place on temple mount by an ungodly nation?

            3. ungodliness pervades the people of God?

            How is God going to turn away ungodliness from Jacob?


            Eze 39:25-26 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the WHOLE HOUSE of ISRAEL, and will be jealous for my holy name; AFTER that they have BORNE their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

            This will be nothing short of when God begins to bring judgment of Jerusalem and the ensuing great tribulaion.
            Jer 25:29-30 KJV For, lo, I BEGIN to bring EVIL on the CITY which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them,

            The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout,

            as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

            Do you see what was said there? THE LORD HIMSELF, shall utter his voice from his holy habitation of Jerusalem...

            [Saying] The Lord has a controversy with ALL the nations and a sword shall go forth into all the nations, aka, the mark of the beast. Do other scriptures support the idea that the Lord will come to Zion and utter his voice? Yes!

            Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall UTTER his VOICE before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


            Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and UTTER his VOICE from JERUSALEM; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people,


            Amo 1:2 KJV And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and UTTER his VOICE from JERUSALEM; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

            I know that few will be able to grasp the thought of the Lord coming to Zion at anytime before the 2nd advent at Armageddon, but this will be the jixt of what the great tribulation is all about... removing ungodliness from Jacob.

            Mat 24:16 KJV Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:...

            Mat 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

            Joel 2 & 3 equates that day, when the Lord shall utter his voice from Jerusalem with:

            1. Shaking the heavens and the earth, and,

            2. The day of the Lord's wrath.

            This is what we see with the opening of the 6th seal:

            Rev 6:14 KJV And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

            Rev 6:17 KJV For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

            It's right there in scripture and yet people still miss it.

            1Th 4:16 KJV For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

            Does Israel's blindness remain in part UNTIL the 2nd advent? Then so will the rapture not happen until then. Does the removal of ungodliness from Jacob mean that they will be saved by keeping the law rather than by faith? Absolutely not. Keeping the law of God will be their schoolmaster that brings them to faith in Christ. Without faith they will not be heirs according to the promise made to Abraham. They will not be allowed to enter the promised land until they come to faith.

            Rom 11:27 KJV For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

            Be Blessed

            The PuP
            All Israel is not all Israelites it’s true Israel the church made up of both jew and gentile

            Notice Zion and Jacob are separated the deliver (Jesus) will come from Zion (national Israel) and turn ungodliness away from Jacob (true Israel the church)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Walls View Post

              Let's do the maths. It was the Feast of Weeks. Historians calculate that the population of Jerusalem and surrounding area during such a feast would swell to almost 2 million people. And the Bible records these sojourners of every nation "devout" (otherwise they would not make the journey to fulfill the Law and be in Jerusalem for the Feast). But let us be conservative and cut that number in half - say, 1 million "devout" Israelites. 3,000 divided by 1 million gives 0.3%. Let's add the 5,000 of Acts 4, which would give 0.8% of the population that were "devout", and let's double it to cover what was happening day to day. We come to the grand figure of 1.6% of devout men of Israel.

              Then we must not forget the diaspora. Ten tribes were absorbed by Assyria and dispersed - never to return. Pure maths without demographics says that this was 83% of Israel. The Babylonian deportation took the the other 17%. Of this 17%, 2.5% returned. In the flurry of figures I get 0.425% of total Israel lived in Israel at the time of Pentecost. That leaves 99.5% of Israel in the dispersion. How many have turned to Christ over the years we cannot tell, but judging from the Pentecost figures (which are optimistic because the men were "devout") we have to say that 98% of all Israelites in the world refuse Christ. The figure, no doubt, varies. But when over 95 % of a nation refuse their Messiah, "blindness" for that nation is established.

              And then, to settle it all, Romans 11:7-8 say that this blindness is given by God. I dare say that the blindness of Israel is lifted when God lifts it - "when the times of the Gentiles are full".
              I give you a link to an article which I agree with which explains it.

              http://www.truthexposed.co.za/index....=171&Itemid=15

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                It was lifted at the cross on Pentecost. Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                Agreed as Jesus said In the parable of the rich man and lazurus they have the law and the prophets which is all they need and will get

                The truth was in the results in acts 2 as those ones realized

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by randyk View Post

                  Israel's blindness ends when Christ comes back, when Jesus *reveals himself* to the world as the judge of the whole earth. How will Israel be unable to see who Jesus is when he comes back in judgment, both to judge the nations for the way they treated Israel, and to restore Israel to her proper theocracy?



                  The 70th Week began at the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry, in around 26 AD.



                  The covenant that was confirmed in Dan 9 was Christ's confirmation of God's covenant with Israel, 1st through the Law, and afterwards through his being "cut off" under the Law.



                  The Great Tribulation, mentioned in the Olivet Discourse, is the NT history of Israel, in which she has suffered the loss of her national status with God from the time she rejected her Messiah until the time Jesus returns.



                  Yes, Israel's blindness ends when her national punishment--her exile--ends.



                  No, like many of the nations Israel also will be deceived by the lawless one. Only the Christian remnants among the nations, including the Christian remnant of Israel, will see.



                  The Rapture of the Church takes place after the judgment of Armageddon. The dead saints, who were unfortunate casualties of the war, will rise again to be glorified. Those who survive will join in this glorification event. The Christians in Israel will participate in the same way Christians in other nations will participate. Israel's national restoration and reconciliation with God follows.



                  Correct, Israel's national restoration follows Armageddon, which is a judgment against all nations, including Israel.



                  The partial blindness of Israel is the determination, among a majority of Jews, to follow religions other than Christianity. The small portion that is Christian is not blind at all.

                  The national blindness of Israel, which involves the majority of nonChristians in Israel, will be removed when Christ comes back. Many hardened unbelievers will be judged and killed at Armageddon. Those who remain alive will be open to the revelation of Christ at his Coming.

                  The restoration of all Israel is not an exhaustive spiritual salvation of every individual in Israel, but rather, the implementation of a national policy embracing Christianity on behalf of all of the citizens of Israel. This will enable the national salvation of Israel in the sense of final deliverance from her political enemies.

                  It will, of course, include the genuine conversion of many Jews to Christianity. But as always, there will be nominal Christians and genuine spiritual Christians. The important thing to note is that the entire country will embrace Christian religious policy, enabling God to restore the entire nation to His good graces.

                  God promised Israel under the Law that He would bless and restore the nation when they, as a people, repent of their backsliding and embrace Him alone as the true God. When Israel, as a nation, adopts Christianity, God will be able to bless the nation once again, adopt them as His people once again, and give them favored status as a nation. But this will also be true for every nation who at that time does the same.
                  If Israel's blindness is removed when Jesus comes back, will it not be too late for any of them to be saved?

                  On the contrary, their blindness will be removed before Jesus returns. Hear the prophet:

                  Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

                  This outpouring of grace and supplication is technically the removal of Israel's blindness and it makes no sense to claim it occurs after Jesus has returned. And what purpose will it serve at that time, I ask? Jesus Christ' requirements are the same for the Jew and Gentile. One must accept HIM by FAITH as 'saviour' to be saved.

                  Another indication of God's removal of their blindness is the appearance of the Two Witnesses. I believe that Zech 12:10 will happen at the coming of the 2Ws. Secondly, it requires belief in Christ to believe NT scripture and flee into the wilderness for succour (Rev 12:6,14). I'm not sure that it'll be possible (the option will no longer be available) for anyone to accept Christ by literally seeing him. Wouldn't that be to cheat those that believed by faith, ie without seeing him?

                  The option to believe by seeing Christ literally will be given to the mortals born in the Millennium, not those that lived BEFORE his return.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                    If Israel's blindness is removed when Jesus comes back, will it not be too late for any of them to be saved?

                    On the contrary, their blindness will be removed before Jesus returns. Hear the prophet:

                    Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

                    This outpouring of grace and supplication is technically the removal of Israel's blindness and it makes no sense to claim it occurs after Jesus has returned. And what purpose will it serve at that time, I ask? Jesus Christ' requirements are the same for the Jew and Gentile. One must accept HIM by FAITH as 'saviour' to be saved.

                    Another indication of God's removal of their blindness is the appearance of the Two Witnesses. I believe that Zech 12:10 will happen at the coming of the 2Ws. Secondly, it requires belief in Christ to believe NT scripture and flee into the wilderness for succour (Rev 12:6,14). I'm not sure that it'll be possible (the option will no longer be available) for anyone to accept Christ by literally seeing him. Wouldn't that be to cheat those that believed by faith, ie without seeing him?

                    The option to believe by seeing Christ literally will be given to the mortals born in the Millennium, not those that lived BEFORE his return.
                    I'm glad you asked because really, it's a very good question. Many years ago I believed just as you do. In fact, I stuck my neck out, in front of my class and teacher, to argue exactly as you just argued, that I believe Israel *must* come back to the Lord *before* he comes. How else could they be saved?

                    But I've come a long ways away from that position now. And it's come after many, many years of study. I don't know how good a job I can do explaining why the change and what the change is, but I'll try. This is not a battle between positions for me, but simply a matter of my conforming to what I believe the Scriptures say.

                    Yes, Jews must come back to the Lord before the end. How else can they participate in the glorious return of Christ, and in the glorification of our new bodies? And what about the 144,000 from Israel? Aren't they protected *before* the winds of judgment blow in the endtimes?

                    So yes, I have to admit that at least *part* of Israel gets saved before the end. But how is this any different from what Paul said, that *part* of Israel converts to Christianity in the present age, even though the majority do not. And what prevents non-Christian Jews from converting *after* the Coming of Christ? If there will be mortal survivors of Armageddon, then certainly they can repent when they see Christ return in glory!

                    Much of my eschatology is centered on this central fact, that Israel modeled believing nations in the present age--they covenant with God, they are blessed by that covenant, and when the majority drift away the nation falls. That was the model Israel provided the rest of the world. And that is the model Christian nations have followed ever since.

                    When Christ comes back he will certainly judge and destroy the governments of the world that fight against Christian supremacy. But this does not mean that all non-Christians on earth will be destroyed or judged to Hell! Rather, those non-Christians who survive Armageddon are just as eligible to convert after Christ comes as they are before he comes!

                    Much of my interpretation of the Olivet Discourse follows this avenue of thinking. And I believe it to be true.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by randyk View Post
                      I'm glad you asked because really, it's a very good question. Many years ago I believed just as you do. In fact, I stuck my neck out, in front of my class and teacher, to argue exactly as you just argued, that I believe Israel *must* come back to the Lord *before* he comes. How else could they be saved?

                      But I've come a long ways away from that position now. And it's come after many, many years of study. I don't know how good a job I can do explaining why the change and what the change is, but I'll try. This is not a battle between positions for me, but simply a matter of my conforming to what I believe the Scriptures say.

                      Yes, Jews must come back to the Lord before the end. How else can they participate in the glorious return of Christ, and in the glorification of our new bodies? And what about the 144,000 from Israel? Aren't they protected *before* the winds of judgment blow in the endtimes?

                      So yes, I have to admit that at least *part* of Israel gets saved before the end. But how is this any different from what Paul said, that *part* of Israel converts to Christianity in the present age, even though the majority do not. And what prevents non-Christian Jews from converting *after* the Coming of Christ? If there will be mortal survivors of Armageddon, then certainly they can repent when they see Christ return in glory!

                      Much of my eschatology is centered on this central fact, that Israel modeled believing nations in the present age--they covenant with God, they are blessed by that covenant, and when the majority drift away the nation falls. That was the model Israel provided the rest of the world. And that is the model Christian nations have followed ever since.

                      When Christ comes back he will certainly judge and destroy the governments of the world that fight against Christian supremacy. But this does not mean that all non-Christians on earth will be destroyed or judged to Hell! Rather, those non-Christians who survive Armageddon are just as eligible to convert after Christ comes as they are before he comes!

                      Much of my interpretation of the Olivet Discourse follows this avenue of thinking. And I believe it to be true.
                      I understand your position but don't agree with it. I also don't believe that any of those mortals that survive the carnage to come to live in the millennium will ever come to faith after Jesus returns. It makes mockery of certain scripturs...

                      2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

                      To claim that anyone who lived in this age and rejected Christ will suddenly believe after seeing him in the flesh, makes no sense. Where does that leave those that believed without seeing Jesus first? Those that will come to faith after his return will be those born in the MK, not those that rejected him in this age. This is my position.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                        I understand your position but don't agree with it. I also don't believe that any of those mortals that survive the carnage to come to live in the millennium will ever come to faith after Jesus returns. It makes mockery of certain scripturs...

                        2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

                        To claim that anyone who lived in this age and rejected Christ will suddenly believe after seeing him in the flesh, makes no sense. Where does that leave those that believed without seeing Jesus first? Those that will come to faith after his return will be those born in the MK, not those that rejected him in this age. This is my position.

                        It's certainly okay if you disagree with me. However, I would comment on your assumptions here.

                        1) To think that conversions to Christ after he comes is a "mockery" has no Scriptural basis whatsoever. Christ came the 1st time, only to be rejected by many Jews. But still, afterwards, many Jews continued to repent. That is entirely consistent with conversions of people after Jesus' 2nd Coming, and doesn't make a mockery out of this idea at all!

                        2) Your assumption seems to be that all men come to a full knowledge of Christ in this age, and at Christ's coming. For you, this seems to make mockery out of the idea that people who know the whole truth, reject it, and then later come back to the truth.

                        But the notion that men come to a full knowledge in this present age is not a given. All we are told is that men are brought to a place of judgment in their lifetimes--not necessarily indicating that the lives of men are brought to that place by the end of the age! They may have heard the gospel preached to them and yet without fully understanding it. Until they are actually dead, they may not yet have come under judgment for rejecting it.

                        Certainly people who die before the end of the age will have come to a place of judgment. But there will be many survivors, I think, at the end of the age who will still not have a full understanding of Salvation. Even if the Gospel has been preached everywhere, that doesn't mean men have fully come to understand it.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by randyk View Post

                          It's certainly okay if you disagree with me. However, I would comment on your assumptions here.

                          1) To think that conversions to Christ after he comes is a "mockery" has no Scriptural basis whatsoever. Christ came the 1st time, only to be rejected by many Jews. But still, afterwards, many Jews continued to repent. That is entirely consistent with conversions of people after Jesus' 2nd Coming, and doesn't make a mockery out of this idea at all!

                          2) Your assumption seems to be that all men come to a full knowledge of Christ in this age, and at Christ's coming. For you, this seems to make mockery out of the idea that people who know the whole truth, reject it, and then later come back to the truth.

                          But the notion that men come to a full knowledge in this present age is not a given. All we are told is that men are brought to a place of judgment in their lifetimes--not necessarily indicating that the lives of men are brought to that place by the end of the age! They may have heard the gospel preached to them and yet without fully understanding it. Until they are actually dead, they may not yet have come under judgment for rejecting it.

                          Certainly people who die before the end of the age will have come to a place of judgment. But there will be many survivors, I think, at the end of the age who will still not have a full understanding of Salvation. Even if the Gospel has been preached everywhere, that doesn't mean men have fully come to understand it.
                          I based my opinion on scripture (2 Thess 2:11) you called it "assumption" and then went on to present the mother of assumptions without a shred of scripture. When you back your views with scripture, I will take more time to respond.

                          Also, an unbeliever doesn't need to have a full understanding of the gospel to believe - what is required is faith. Full understanding comes later with discernment and years of study and fellowship with God.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Walls View Post

                            Let's do the maths. It was the Feast of Weeks. Historians calculate that the population of Jerusalem and surrounding area during such a feast would swell to almost 2 million people. And the Bible records these sojourners of every nation "devout" (otherwise they would not make the journey to fulfill the Law and be in Jerusalem for the Feast). But let us be conservative and cut that number in half - say, 1 million "devout" Israelites. 3,000 divided by 1 million gives 0.3%. Let's add the 5,000 of Acts 4, which would give 0.8% of the population that were "devout", and let's double it to cover what was happening day to day. We come to the grand figure of 1.6% of devout men of Israel.

                            Then we must not forget the diaspora. Ten tribes were absorbed by Assyria and dispersed - never to return. Pure maths without demographics says that this was 83% of Israel. The Babylonian deportation took the the other 17%. Of this 17%, 2.5% returned. In the flurry of figures I get 0.425% of total Israel lived in Israel at the time of Pentecost. That leaves 99.5% of Israel in the dispersion. How many have turned to Christ over the years we cannot tell, but judging from the Pentecost figures (which are optimistic because the men were "devout") we have to say that 98% of all Israelites in the world refuse Christ. The figure, no doubt, varies. But when over 95 % of a nation refuse their Messiah, "blindness" for that nation is established.

                            And then, to settle it all, Romans 11:7-8 say that this blindness is given by God. I dare say that the blindness of Israel is lifted when God lifts it - "when the times of the Gentiles are full".
                            Heaven knows where you got the figures for your maths. You need to first accept that the division of Israel ended after the return from captivity. When Jesus Christ and the Apostles referenced 'Israel', they were addressing the House of David, not those of Judah.

                            But I concur that the blindness of Israel is yet to be lifted.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                              I based my opinion on scripture (2 Thess 2:11) you called it "assumption" and then went on to present the mother of assumptions without a shred of scripture. When you back your views with scripture, I will take more time to respond.

                              Also, an unbeliever doesn't need to have a full understanding of the gospel to believe - what is required is faith. Full understanding comes later with discernment and years of study and fellowship with God.
                              Yes, I believe you are making assumptions--just my conviction brother.

                              2 Thes 2.11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

                              The assumption I said you were making, based on this verse, is that those above who "have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness" includes all men on earth, such that unbelievers will not remain to enter into the Millennium still ignorant of the truth. In fact, this verse does *not* demand that all people on earth who are not Christians will be condemned. This is an assumption because it does not say what you claim it's saying. Where does this verse claim to be inclusive of all unbelievers on earth, such that they will all be condemned?

                              And so, I insist that many peoples on earth will remain after Christ's Coming to hear the Gospel and to repent. And the Scriptures clearly say that Israel will be restored (Acts 1.6). And so you have your Scripture verse, though there are many, many others, suggesting that Israel will repent *at* the Coming of Christ.

                              When I talk about having a "fulll understanding" of the Gospel, I'm not talking about knowledge of Christian doctrine or a mature knowledge of God. I'm talking about people who externally know things about God without yet having come to know God intimately and spiritually. You are confusing the two things in my argument. Many on earth will have heard the Gospel preached, but will not yet have been brought to the knowledge of salvation. And so, at Christ's Coming there will still be time for many to come to Christ, to experience what the knowledge of salvation is really all about.

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