Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rapture and the coming of Christ

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Rapture and the coming of Christ

    Many within the body of Christ believe the coming of Christ comes in two stages. First it is believed that prior to the great tribulation believers will be caught up (rapture) to meet the Lord in the air.

    1Th 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Some say this is not the last day, but the beginning of a seven year period that is divided in half. Some believe the great tribulation that follows the rapture of believers lasts for three and a half years, others say seven years.

    I wonder how many if any in this community believe that the appearing of Christ to this earth comes in two stages something like what I presented above?

  • #2
    Originally posted by RogerW View Post
    Many within the body of Christ believe the coming of Christ comes in two stages. First it is believed that prior to the great tribulation believers will be caught up (rapture) to meet the Lord in the air.

    1Th 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Some say this is not the last day, but the beginning of a seven year period that is divided in half. Some believe the great tribulation that follows the rapture of believers lasts for three and a half years, others say seven years.

    I wonder how many if any in this community believe that the appearing of Christ to this earth comes in two stages something like what I presented above?
    Scripture teaches that when Jesus comes back it will be once for the rewarding and the judging at the same time at the end of our world on the judgement day?

    Rev 22:12
    12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.


    Matthew 25:31-46
    The Sheep and the Goats
    31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by marty fox View Post

      Scripture teaches that when Jesus comes back it will be once for the rewarding and the judging at the same time at the end of our world on the judgement day?

      Rev 22:12
      12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.


      Matthew 25:31-46
      The Sheep and the Goats
      31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
      34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
      37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
      40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
      41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
      44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
      45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
      46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
      I agree. This topic came up in our SS class but those promoting it could not Biblically prove what they allege. I was hoping to see if others believing the dual coming could show through Scripture why they believe the second coming of Christ is in two stages. Stage one secretly, for the believers, stage two after great tribulation to bring judgment.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RogerW View Post
        Many within the body of Christ believe the coming of Christ comes in two stages. First it is believed that prior to the great tribulation believers will be caught up (rapture) to meet the Lord in the air.

        1Th 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

        Some say this is not the last day, but the beginning of a seven year period that is divided in half. Some believe the great tribulation that follows the rapture of believers lasts for three and a half years, others say seven years.

        I wonder how many if any in this community believe that the appearing of Christ to this earth comes in two stages something like what I presented above?
        Imo, it is not 2 stages, it is being tempted to worship the abomination 2x (1st by the beast from the sea & his mouth, then the 2nd time by the False Prophet) (there is no whisked away rapture). The 7 Trumpets are 7 punishments for the 1st time, the 2nd temptation is punished at the 7 bowls (referring to Leviticus 26:18)

        https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lW_...ew?usp=sharing

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by RogerW View Post

          I wonder how many if any in this community believe that the appearing of Christ to this earth comes in two stages something like what I presented above?
          There are a few Dispensationalists here. I strongly disagree with them, but they are generally good Christians. I do find, when debating with Dispensationalists, that they tend to get hostile and judgmental. This is not true for all on this forum.

          The main reason Imminency Proponents believe in a 2 Stage Coming of Christ is because they believe we should be expecting Christ to return *at any time,* and not just after the Antichrist has come. This flies in the face of 2 Thes 2, in my opinion. There, we read that we are *not* to expect Christ to come for his Church until *after* the Antichrist has appeared. In fact, we are told that the very purpose in Christ's Coming is to *destroy the Antichrist!*

          But Dispensationalists not only believe we are to expect his Coming *at any time,* but that we should be able to avoid the Wrath of God, supposedly poured out on earth in the final 7 years of this age. None of this is true, in my opinion. 1st, there will only be a 3.5 years reign of Antichrist--not 7 years. But beyond this, we are not told that the final period on earth, in which Antichrist will reign, is a "period of God's Wrath." Rather, we are told that God's Wrath is regularly pouring out judgments on earth, and that in the endtimes, this wrath will consummate in a final act of Divine Wrath, namely the Coming of Christ itself.

          Specifically, we are told that Antichrist gathers the world in a kind of final rebellion against Christ, leading to perhaps a world war. This "Battle of Armageddon" will not only cause untold damage on earth, with a major part of the earth being killed, but that it will lead to Christ's Return to cause Antichrist's Kingdom to be destroyed. And this will lead to eternal judgment for those standing with him.

          This is the final Wrath spoken of in the Revelation--not a supposed 7 years period of Antichristian rule. Neither are we told that Christians are ever exempted from Antichristian rule, which is ludicrous, since the whole purpose of the account is to encourage Christians to endure to the end!

          Finally, we are never told to expect Christ to come *at any time.* On the contrary, we are told that the timing of his Coming is not to be our concern, that our major concern is in our preparations for that event *today,* as we line our lives up with Christian living. This is how we are to at all times remain ready for his Coming.

          Comment


          • #6
            I've discovered this doctrine comes from the pre-millennial mind set. I did a little research and discovered this doctrine is not found before 1830. Historical writings show that some early church fathers believed in a literal millennial reign of Christ upon this earth, but none of them ever mentioned a doctrine that has Christ first coming in the air to rapture the elect, then some 1007 years later coming again, only this time to the earth in judgment.

            I found this doctrine has its beginnings apparently in Scotland. A young Scottish girl, named Margaret Macdonald, while in a fevered state claims to have received visions and or dreams through the Holy Spirit and this dual coming of Christ doctrine was part of what she claimed the Holy Spirit revealed to her. John Darby heard about this supernatural revelation and went to visit young Margaret. Then he too began to teach this doctrine, but changing it somewhat. Margaret believed that Christ would first rapture only some believers, but not all. Darby changed that to include all believers as part of the secret rapture. Next Scofield picked up the doctrine and added it to the Scofield Reference Bible. After that people believed this doctrine was biblical, and the doctrine took hold like wild fire. Scofield referred to the rapture as the first resurrection in his Bible notes saying, "Not church saints only, but all bodies of the saved, of whatever dispensation, are included in the first resurrection, as here described (1Co 15:52), but it is peculiarly the "blessed hope" of the Church."

            I find those who promote and defend this doctrine use conjecture, opinion, and feelings, and their use of Scripture is taken out of context, or their doctrine is assumed, then read into the text.

            Comment


            • #7
              Jesus will Return, seen by all the world only once. Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30, Zechariah 14:3

              But before that Day, He will be revealed to His own people, as they gather into all of the holy Land. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Isaiah 62:1-5

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                I found this doctrine has its beginnings apparently in Scotland. A young Scottish girl, named Margaret Macdonald, while in a fevered state claims to have received visions and or dreams through the Holy Spirit and this dual coming of Christ doctrine was part of what she claimed the Holy Spirit revealed to her. John Darby heard about this supernatural revelation and went to visit young Margaret.
                Margaret did not teach or describe a pre-trib rapture in her vision.


                The rise in belief in the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald who in 1830 had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the Rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861 but two important sentences demonstrating post-tribulation were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the Rapture. The two removed sentences were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept" [25]


                The entire vision is here (I red bolded the two removed sentences and black bolded ones that don't support pre-trib):


                "It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.'

                I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is.

                I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory.

                I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people.

                Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.'

                'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye.

                Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.

                I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold.

                I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom.

                I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be.

                I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.

                I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.

                I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit.

                The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out.

                The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept.

                I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb.

                I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.

                When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross.

                I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people - just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her.

                This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry.

                Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.''
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                  I've discovered this doctrine comes from the pre-millennial mind set. I did a little research and discovered this doctrine is not found before 1830. Historical writings show that some early church fathers believed in a literal millennial reign of Christ upon this earth, but none of them ever mentioned a doctrine that has Christ first coming in the air to rapture the elect, then some 1007 years later coming again, only this time to the earth in judgment.

                  I found this doctrine has its beginnings apparently in Scotland. A young Scottish girl, named Margaret Macdonald, while in a fevered state claims to have received visions and or dreams through the Holy Spirit and this dual coming of Christ doctrine was part of what she claimed the Holy Spirit revealed to her. John Darby heard about this supernatural revelation and went to visit young Margaret. Then he too began to teach this doctrine, but changing it somewhat. Margaret believed that Christ would first rapture only some believers, but not all. Darby changed that to include all believers as part of the secret rapture. Next Scofield picked up the doctrine and added it to the Scofield Reference Bible. After that people believed this doctrine was biblical, and the doctrine took hold like wild fire. Scofield referred to the rapture as the first resurrection in his Bible notes saying, "Not church saints only, but all bodies of the saved, of whatever dispensation, are included in the first resurrection, as here described (1Co 15:52), but it is peculiarly the "blessed hope" of the Church."

                  I find those who promote and defend this doctrine use conjecture, opinion, and feelings, and their use of Scripture is taken out of context, or their doctrine is assumed, then read into the text.
                  Roger, I read Dave MacPherson's book when it 1st came out, "The Incredible Cover-up." That was, I believe, back in 1980. It was written as though by a news reporter doing an investigation, which was basically what it was. So a number of the facts and conclusions are disputed, as later, more scholarly, studies were done.

                  What I do believe is that there was, in the time prior to Darby, a move among a couple of Catholic theologians, to put futurism back into biblical prophecy. And thus, Darby re-invented modern futurism in the form of Premillennialism with a twist. He posited the idea that Christ could come at any time, aka as "imminency doctrine." And he therefore also expected that this imminent Coming of Christ, which the Church was to watch for, would have to precede the end of our present age and the rule of Antichrist.

                  And so, Darby theorized that wherever the Church was promised escape from Divine wrath, that meant, therefore, that the Church would be able to escape the time of Antichrist's rule, along with all of the judgments that Revelation predicts will come down upon him.

                  You are right, I believe, that in America Schofield began to advance this new eschatology along with the notes in his Schofield Reference Bible. And the excitement built around this idea that Christ was coming soon seemed to join forces with some of those who were trying to get back to biblical basics.

                  Prophetic conferences took place, with many Christians beginning to believe that Pretribulationism was equal to evangelicalism and Christian conservatism. Christian schools like Dallas Theological Seminary came to be associated with Pretribulation teaching. Songs, films, and books began to project this as the norm in Christian theology, including Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth," and the "Left Behind" series, along with TBN's films along the same lines.

                  But there are serious conservative Christian scholars whose eschatology not only opposes Pretribulation teaching, but also believes in Christian futurism, as well. Two important names are Robert Gundry and George Eldon Ladd.

                  Of course, there are Amillennialists who also oppose this teaching. I just happen to agree that Premillennialism was dominant in the earliest centuries of the Church until later, Christian thinkers and theologians began to change their theology to explain the failure of Israel to be saved, as a nation. The Church, in effect, became the New Israel. And the current age became the Symbolic Millennium. There would be no future Millennium with a literal salvation of National Israel.

                  You can decide what you want to believe among these schools. I agree that Pretrib was not taught in the Early Church, and therefore, is a novel, modern doctrine. 2 Thes 2 teaches explicitly against Pretrib Doctrine, forcing me to ignore the claims of Dispensationalists to the contrary. I will hold to what I know Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                    […] but none of them ever mentioned a doctrine that has Christ first coming in the air to rapture the elect, then some 1007 years later coming again, only this time to the earth in judgment.

                    I found this doctrine has its beginnings apparently in […]
                    In viewing your sentence above, where I've bolded it, I fear you've not grasped the "pre-trib" stance/doctrine accurately, for it is not actually expressed in the terms you've stated. = )

                    Or was this simply a typo?




                    [I've posted a great deal on the "pre-trib viewpoint," btw = ) I'm always happy to discuss the Scriptures pertaining to this topic, with those interested in doing so]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                      Many within the body of Christ believe the coming of Christ comes in two stages. First it is believed that prior to the great tribulation believers will be caught up (rapture) to meet the Lord in the air.

                      1Th 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

                      Some say this is not the last day, but the beginning of a seven year period that is divided in half. Some believe the great tribulation that follows the rapture of believers lasts for three and a half years, others say seven years.

                      I wonder how many if any in this community believe that the appearing of Christ to this earth comes in two stages something like what I presented above?
                      I believe the Lord comes to meet his followers in the clouds.
                      Later, he comes all the way down to the earth to do battle with the beast and begin his earthly reign.
                      I believe the rapture takes place at the final trumpet of revelation, before the vials/bowls are poured out.


                      I made a video on this subject about a month ago. See below.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su8oHAM8ofg

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                        I believe the Lord comes to meet his followers in the clouds.
                        Later, he comes all the way down to the earth to do battle with the beast and begin his earthly reign.
                        I believe the rapture takes place at the final trumpet of revelation, before the vials/bowls are poured out.
                        This is illogical.
                        Plainly the Return is after the Great Trib, so His followers; the faithful Christians are on earth to be 'caught up' at the Return.

                        There is no time gap in 1 Thess 4:15-17.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by randyk View Post

                          Roger, I read Dave MacPherson's book when it 1st came out, "The Incredible Cover-up." That was, I believe, back in 1980. It was written as though by a news reporter doing an investigation, which was basically what it was. So a number of the facts and conclusions are disputed, as later, more scholarly, studies were done.

                          What I do believe is that there was, in the time prior to Darby, a move among a couple of Catholic theologians, to put futurism back into biblical prophecy. And thus, Darby re-invented modern futurism in the form of Premillennialism with a twist. He posited the idea that Christ could come at any time, aka as "imminency doctrine." And he therefore also expected that this imminent Coming of Christ, which the Church was to watch for, would have to precede the end of our present age and the rule of Antichrist.

                          And so, Darby theorized that wherever the Church was promised escape from Divine wrath, that meant, therefore, that the Church would be able to escape the time of Antichrist's rule, along with all of the judgments that Revelation predicts will come down upon him.

                          You are right, I believe, that in America Schofield began to advance this new eschatology along with the notes in his Schofield Reference Bible. And the excitement built around this idea that Christ was coming soon seemed to join forces with some of those who were trying to get back to biblical basics.

                          Prophetic conferences took place, with many Christians beginning to believe that Pretribulationism was equal to evangelicalism and Christian conservatism. Christian schools like Dallas Theological Seminary came to be associated with Pretribulation teaching. Songs, films, and books began to project this as the norm in Christian theology, including Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth," and the "Left Behind" series, along with TBN's films along the same lines.

                          But there are serious conservative Christian scholars whose eschatology not only opposes Pretribulation teaching, but also believes in Christian futurism, as well. Two important names are Robert Gundry and George Eldon Ladd.

                          Of course, there are Amillennialists who also oppose this teaching. I just happen to agree that Premillennialism was dominant in the earliest centuries of the Church until later, Christian thinkers and theologians began to change their theology to explain the failure of Israel to be saved, as a nation. The Church, in effect, became the New Israel. And the current age became the Symbolic Millennium. There would be no future Millennium with a literal salvation of National Israel.

                          You can decide what you want to believe among these schools. I agree that Pretrib was not taught in the Early Church, and therefore, is a novel, modern doctrine. 2 Thes 2 teaches explicitly against Pretrib Doctrine, forcing me to ignore the claims of Dispensationalists to the contrary. I will hold to what I know Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians.
                          This was helpful, thank you.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

                            In viewing your sentence above, where I've bolded it, I fear you've not grasped the "pre-trib" stance/doctrine accurately, for it is not actually expressed in the terms you've stated. = )

                            Or was this simply a typo?


                            [I've posted a great deal on the "pre-trib viewpoint," btw = ) I'm always happy to discuss the Scriptures pertaining to this topic, with those interested in doing so]
                            I was basically espousing the doctrine being promoted in our SS class at church. Myself belonging to the Amillennial camp reject altogether any doctrine that denies believers, sometime in the distant future (perhaps near?) will be taken out of this world and therefore not themselves subjected to great tribulation. It flatly denies the warnings Christ spoke to His first century disciples. It is my opinion that whatever doctrine one espouses must bear in mind that the warnings and blessings must involve the church on earth throughout the ages from her beginning. First and foremost the Scriptures were written to first century believers. It makes little sense, at least to me, that Christ would go into such great detail telling first century disciples they too would experience "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" if they would be long dead before it comes.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                              I believe the Lord comes to meet his followers in the clouds.
                              Later, he comes all the way down to the earth to do battle with the beast and begin his earthly reign.
                              I believe the rapture takes place at the final trumpet of revelation, before the vials/bowls are poured out.


                              I made a video on this subject about a month ago. See below.

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su8oHAM8ofg
                              You are not alone! There are many in this camp. My purpose for beginning this thread is to ask those who adhere to this doctrine to simply biblically prove what they allege. What is happening in our SS class at church, while promoting this dual coming of Christ doctrine comes across more as indoctrination from ones opinions rather than biblical exegesis. If you present the Scriptures used to support this doctrine, then we might have something to biblically examine. That is what is lacking in the SS class.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X