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  • This Age and The Age to Come!

    When I read Scripture, I find only a two age model. Scripture clearly speaks of "this age" and the "age to come".

    In "this age" we find:

    Mt. 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Lk 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
    Lk 20:34-35 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection of the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.

    Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

    The first age, spoken of as "this age" is the present time period before the Second Coming of Christ. In this age/this time we find houses, brethren, sisters, mothers, children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

    Mr 10:30 But he shall receive and hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

    Scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age.

    1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

    The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers.

    2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    This age is called the evil age.

    Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

    Ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of this age.

    Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    All these present realities are destined to pass away with the return of Christ. In this age we struggle and long for the coming of our Lord.

    Contrast this age to "the age to come".

    In the age to come there will be no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Spirit. (see Mt. 12:32 above)

    The age to come is preceeded by signs.

    Mt 24:3 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    The age to come is characterized by eternal life. (see Mk 10:30 above)

    There will be no marriage in the age to come. (see Lu 20:35 above)

    It is indicative of true life/living eternally.

    1 Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

    The qualities defined in the age to come are eternal after the return of Christ. The two ages are in opposition, one, this age temporal, the other age to come, eternal. This age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement, the age to come is the age of the faithful, and the redeemed of the Lord. The one event that forever divides them, the return of the Lord.

    The harvest is at the end of this age.

    Mt 13:39, 49 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

    The resurrection of both the just and unjust occurs simultaneously. Believers are raised on the "last day".

    Jo 6:39, 40, 44, 54: 11:24 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 ....and I will raise him up the last day. 44...and I will raise him up the last day. 54...I will raise him up at the last day. 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    The resurrection of believers is on the last day, at the same time the angels come to separate the wicked from the righteous and the wheat from the tares. Jesus also proclaims that the "Judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" (Jo 12:48).

    At the same "last day" the trumpet of God will sound the return of Christ. His return will be in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet whall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    There are no gaps between the resurrection and the judgment. The resurrection, the judgment and the return of Christ are but one event, happening at the same time; the "last day".

    Mt 15:31-33 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angles with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    The Scriptures do not allow for any gaps between the return of Christ and the final judgment.

    Peter defines this period of time as the "last days".

    Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    In Mt 24 and Mk 13 Jesus characterizes as a period of birth pains of wars, earthquakes, famine, and distress that ends with the return of Christ, the resurrection and the judgment on the "last day". Peter describes the "last day" as the "day of the Lord in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." ((2Pe 3:10)

    The focus is nowhere upon a half-way kingdom (i.e. a future millennium). The Scripture focuses on the consummation and the summing up of all things with the creation of the new heavens and the new earth. When the Lord returns, the end of this age, the resurrection, the judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and the new earth are at hand.

    If the millennial reign of Rev 20 refers to the future, how can there be a great apostasy while Jesus is ruling the nations with a rod of iron?










  • #2
    Actually, I think the Scriptures speak of 2 ages in which different things happen. But some of the things that happen in this age also happen in the next age. The Age to Come, in Jewish biblical literature, speaks of a time when the mortal nation of Israel is restored, when people in Israel are not yet resurrected to obtain immortal bodies.

    At the same time, the Church of this age does obtain immortality in the next age, the Age to Come. And so, while Israel is restored as a mortal nation, along with many other nations, the international Church is, in the same age, resurrected to immortality.

    I don't really see that the Age to Come, the Millennial Age, is excluded simply because the Church is glorified in the next age. The next age will be an eternal age for those who are glorified. But for those who are still mortal, it will be a continuation of the present age.

    The end of the present age does not mean that some things in the present age do not continue. It only means that certain things end at the end of this age, including satanic rule over the nations, and international warfare. Christ will come back to glorify the Church and to restore Israel, along with many other nations. And to do this he will begin by judging the whole world, to remove the opposition to his own government on earth.

    But this does not mean that there will not be future judgments, at the end of the Millennium. It is right there in Rev 20. I don't think things are so cut and dried in describing the 2 ages as to prohibit a continuation of mortal humanity in the Millennium. The Jews fully accepted that there would be this Age to Come in which Israel would obtain their final national salvation. And I believe it will begin as a mortal reality.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RogerW View Post
      When I read Scripture, I find only a two age model. Scripture clearly speaks of "this age" and the "age to come".

      In "this age" we find:

      Mt. 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

      Lk 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
      Lk 20:34-35 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection of the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.

      Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

      The first age, spoken of as "this age" is the present time period before the Second Coming of Christ. In this age/this time we find houses, brethren, sisters, mothers, children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

      Mr 10:30 But he shall receive and hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

      Scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age.

      1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

      The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers.

      2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

      This age is called the evil age.

      Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

      Ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of this age.

      Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

      All these present realities are destined to pass away with the return of Christ. In this age we struggle and long for the coming of our Lord.

      Contrast this age to "the age to come".

      In the age to come there will be no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Spirit. (see Mt. 12:32 above)

      The age to come is preceeded by signs.

      Mt 24:3 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

      The age to come is characterized by eternal life. (see Mk 10:30 above)

      There will be no marriage in the age to come. (see Lu 20:35 above)

      It is indicative of true life/living eternally.

      1 Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

      The qualities defined in the age to come are eternal after the return of Christ. The two ages are in opposition, one, this age temporal, the other age to come, eternal. This age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement, the age to come is the age of the faithful, and the redeemed of the Lord. The one event that forever divides them, the return of the Lord.

      The harvest is at the end of this age.

      Mt 13:39, 49 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

      The resurrection of both the just and unjust occurs simultaneously. Believers are raised on the "last day".

      Jo 6:39, 40, 44, 54: 11:24 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 ....and I will raise him up the last day. 44...and I will raise him up the last day. 54...I will raise him up at the last day. 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

      The resurrection of believers is on the last day, at the same time the angels come to separate the wicked from the righteous and the wheat from the tares. Jesus also proclaims that the "Judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" (Jo 12:48).

      At the same "last day" the trumpet of God will sound the return of Christ. His return will be in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

      1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet whall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

      1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

      There are no gaps between the resurrection and the judgment. The resurrection, the judgment and the return of Christ are but one event, happening at the same time; the "last day".

      Mt 15:31-33 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angles with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

      The Scriptures do not allow for any gaps between the return of Christ and the final judgment.

      Peter defines this period of time as the "last days".

      Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

      In Mt 24 and Mk 13 Jesus characterizes as a period of birth pains of wars, earthquakes, famine, and distress that ends with the return of Christ, the resurrection and the judgment on the "last day". Peter describes the "last day" as the "day of the Lord in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." ((2Pe 3:10)

      The focus is nowhere upon a half-way kingdom (i.e. a future millennium). The Scripture focuses on the consummation and the summing up of all things with the creation of the new heavens and the new earth. When the Lord returns, the end of this age, the resurrection, the judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and the new earth are at hand.

      If the millennial reign of Rev 20 refers to the future, how can there be a great apostasy while Jesus is ruling the nations with a rod of iron?
      I will let scripture answer your first premise.

      Ephesians 2:7
      7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
      Ephesians 3:5
      5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
      Ephesians 3:21
      21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
      Colossians 1:26
      26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

      It is clear from Ephesians 3:5 and Colossians 1:26 that there were ages (plural) before our Lord Jesus, and from Ephesians 2:7 and 3:21 that there are ages (plural) ahead.

      The Millennial Kingdom is not "half-way" Kingdom. It is the first one thousand years of an "everlasting Kingdom". It's peculiarity is that it takes place on the earth as we know it - with summer, winter, the sea and death. It is the time that our Lord "subdues" - thus the rule of the rod of iron. The age or ages of the New Heaven and New Earth is when all enemies are subdued, death is erased and there are climatic and/or geographical changes.

      The great rebellion AFTER the Millennium is of God, not because our Lord Jesus could not subdue all things. During the Millennium, with long life the order of the day, and no wars, the population will grow exponentially. All those born during the millennium will not have know life with Satan around. Added to this, the will hate the rule of the rod of iron (as we all do). So God allowing the release of Satan is simply what He always does - He allows a TEST. The question is; will those born in the Millennium choose the righteous but strict reign of Jesus and the accompanying prosperity, or will they believe the deceptions of Satan who will, like Eve, offer them something better. The result is that a huge portion of the world's population will rather listen to Satan's lies than embrace the righteous rule of our Lord Jesus.

      And finally, if there is no Millennium, how can Satan be simultaneously, bound, free, and in the Lake of Fire? Does not scripture plainly state that he is "bound" and in a subterranean prison for 1,000 years, the let loose for a short while, and then be cast into the Lake of Fire for ever?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by randyk View Post
        Actually, I think the Scriptures speak of 2 ages in which different things happen. But some of the things that happen in this age also happen in the next age. The Age to Come, in Jewish biblical literature, speaks of a time when the mortal nation of Israel is restored, when people in Israel are not yet resurrected to obtain immortal bodies.

        At the same time, the Church of this age does obtain immortality in the next age, the Age to Come. And so, while Israel is restored as a mortal nation, along with many other nations, the international Church is, in the same age, resurrected to immortality.

        I don't really see that the Age to Come, the Millennial Age, is excluded simply because the Church is glorified in the next age. The next age will be an eternal age for those who are glorified. But for those who are still mortal, it will be a continuation of the present age.

        The end of the present age does not mean that some things in the present age do not continue. It only means that certain things end at the end of this age, including satanic rule over the nations, and international warfare. Christ will come back to glorify the Church and to restore Israel, along with many other nations. And to do this he will begin by judging the whole world, to remove the opposition to his own government on earth.

        But this does not mean that there will not be future judgments, at the end of the Millennium. It is right there in Rev 20. I don't think things are so cut and dried in describing the 2 ages as to prohibit a continuation of mortal humanity in the Millennium. The Jews fully accepted that there would be this Age to Come in which Israel would obtain their final national salvation. And I believe it will begin as a mortal reality.
        Do you then not believe that when Christ comes again this earth and everything in it will be burned up? Can you show even one verse that proves life on this world will continue as always after Christ comes again? Can you also prove the age to come will be only for a millennium?






        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Walls View Post

          I will let scripture answer your first premise.

          Ephesians 2:7
          7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
          Ephesians 3:5
          5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
          Ephesians 3:21
          21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
          Colossians 1:26
          26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

          It is clear from Ephesians 3:5 and Colossians 1:26 that there were ages (plural) before our Lord Jesus, and from Ephesians 2:7 and 3:21 that there are ages (plural) ahead.
          Of course, there have always been ages on this earth. It can be defined as chronos which is a space of time. The only age Paul envisioned after the Second coming of Christ does not consist of ages (plural) but an age, or a new world that will know no sin, decay or death. Unlike the world that now exists in time, knowing sin, decay and death the world to come or "age" to come will exist eternally or forever.

          The Millennial Kingdom is not "half-way" Kingdom. It is the first one thousand years of an "everlasting Kingdom".
          How can it be both one thousand years, and everlasting? Either it exist in time or eternity. I find no Scripture reference for this in-between time you speak of???

          It's peculiarity is that it takes place on the earth as we know it - with summer, winter, the sea and death. It is the time that our Lord "subdues" - thus the rule of the rod of iron. The age or ages of the New Heaven and New Earth is when all enemies are subdued, death is erased and there are climatic and/or geographical changes.
          I've presented the Scriptures above, so will not again. So I will simply repeat, according to the Scriptures when Christ returns the Second time this earth and everything or everyone in it will be burned up.

          The great rebellion AFTER the Millennium is of God, not because our Lord Jesus could not subdue all things. During the Millennium, with long life the order of the day, and no wars, the population will grow exponentially. All those born during the millennium will not have know life with Satan around. Added to this, the will hate the rule of the rod of iron (as we all do). So God allowing the release of Satan is simply what He always does - He allows a TEST. The question is; will those born in the Millennium choose the righteous but strict reign of Jesus and the accompanying prosperity, or will they believe the deceptions of Satan who will, like Eve, offer them something better. The result is that a huge portion of the world's population will rather listen to Satan's lies than embrace the righteous rule of our Lord Jesus.
          Unless you can prove through Scripture what you allege here, it is simply your opinion, and one's opinions are difficult if not fruitless to argue with.

          And finally, if there is no Millennium, how can Satan be simultaneously, bound, free, and in the Lake of Fire? Does not scripture plainly state that he is "bound" and in a subterranean prison for 1,000 years, the let loose for a short while, and then be cast into the Lake of Fire for ever?
          The age Rev 20 refers to as a thousand years is symbolic of time that exists on this earth from Christ's first Advent to His Second Coming in glory. Satan is a spirit being, cast into the bottomless pit for the duration of this symbolic period of time (1000 years) after Christ ascended to heaven after His crucifixion. But don't forget that when he was cast out of heaven his tail drew the third of part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to earth (Rev 12). These are the messengers of the dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan. The third part of the number of stars in heaven is a mighty great army doing the bidding of their king. Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

          With this kind of an army, not to mention all who are clothed in flesh, who are of their father the Devil, false prophets, sheep's in wolves clothing, liars, any who are not led of the Spirit, we get a pretty good ideal how Satan can be bound yet unbound through his army at the same time. Satan's little season accomplishes one purpose, to gather together his demonic host to be destroyed by God when He sends down fire from heaven. Then finally as you say, he will be cast into the LOF forevermore.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by RogerW View Post
            The focus is nowhere upon a half-way kingdom (i.e. a future millennium). The Scripture focuses on the consummation and the summing up of all things with the creation of the new heavens and the new earth. When the Lord returns, the end of this age, the resurrection, the judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and the new earth are at hand.

            If the millennial reign of Rev 20 refers to the future, how can there be a great apostasy while Jesus is ruling the nations with a rod of iron?
            The solution to the dilemma you presented is simple. The return of Christ and the Millennial period takes place in this age. Problem solved.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

              The solution to the dilemma you presented is simple. The return of Christ and the Millennial period takes place in this age. Problem solved.
              That might be a problem for your doctrine??? The only way the return of Christ and the millennium take place together in this age, is IF the millennial period is now! For once Christ comes a Second time this earth and everything on it will be burned up!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                The solution to the dilemma you presented is simple. The return of Christ and the Millennial period takes place in this age. Problem solved.
                Yes ,but the return of Jesus happens after it. Jesus ushers in the day of eternity which is the age to come. The restoration of all things.


                Act 3
                19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
                20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
                21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
                22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed to everything He says to you.
                23 And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
                And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                  Of course, there have always been ages on this earth. It can be defined as chronos which is a space of time. The only age Paul envisioned after the Second coming of Christ does not consist of ages (plural) but an age, or a new world that will know no sin, decay or death. Unlike the world that now exists in time, knowing sin, decay and death the world to come or "age" to come will exist eternally or forever.



                  How can it be both one thousand years, and everlasting? Either it exist in time or eternity. I find no Scripture reference for this in-between time you speak of???



                  I've presented the Scriptures above, so will not again. So I will simply repeat, according to the Scriptures when Christ returns the Second time this earth and everything or everyone in it will be burned up.



                  Unless you can prove through Scripture what you allege here, it is simply your opinion, and one's opinions are difficult if not fruitless to argue with.



                  The age Rev 20 refers to as a thousand years is symbolic of time that exists on this earth from Christ's first Advent to His Second Coming in glory. Satan is a spirit being, cast into the bottomless pit for the duration of this symbolic period of time (1000 years) after Christ ascended to heaven after His crucifixion. But don't forget that when he was cast out of heaven his tail drew the third of part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to earth (Rev 12). These are the messengers of the dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan. The third part of the number of stars in heaven is a mighty great army doing the bidding of their king. Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

                  With this kind of an army, not to mention all who are clothed in flesh, who are of their father the Devil, false prophets, sheep's in wolves clothing, liars, any who are not led of the Spirit, we get a pretty good ideal how Satan can be bound yet unbound through his army at the same time. Satan's little season accomplishes one purpose, to gather together his demonic host to be destroyed by God when He sends down fire from heaven. Then finally as you say, he will be cast into the LOF forevermore.
                  Thanks for your reply. I've read it and noted it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                    Do you then not believe that when Christ comes again this earth and everything in it will be burned up? Can you show even one verse that proves life on this world will continue as always after Christ comes again? Can you also prove the age to come will be only for a millennium?
                    You're probably referring to:
                    2 Peter 3.10 The day of the Lord will come as a robber comes. The heavens will pass away with a loud noise. The sun and moon and stars will burn up. The earth and all that is in it will be burned up.

                    Yes, clearly, if annihilation of the entire universe was meant by Peter, then this would contradict John's account:
                    Rev 20.And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

                    When reading Revelation you will notice that only a portion, though a large portion, of mankind is destroyed. In one place we read that 1/4 of humanity (Rev 6.8), and in another place 1/3 of humanity (Rev 9.15), is destroyed at the coming of the Lord. And we read that during the sounding of the 7 trumpets, 1/3 of earth is destroyed--not the entire earth (Rev 8).

                    So the conclusion I must draw is that the destruction of the universe Peter refers to is actually an earthly judgment that affects only a portion of the earth as well as Satan's rule over the heavens. I don't know how else to explain it since we read elsewhere in the Scriptures that heaven and earth were created to endure forever.

                    Psa 78.69 He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.
                    Ecc 1.4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.


                    It is only its spiritual contamination that will be cauterized and disinfected so that the new earth will no longer be restrained from worshiping God by evil powers in the heavens. Though the entire world will likely suffer during the world war called Armageddon, it may only largely be the domain of Antichrist that is completely destroyed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by randyk View Post

                      You're probably referring to:
                      2 Peter 3.10 The day of the Lord will come as a robber comes. The heavens will pass away with a loud noise. The sun and moon and stars will burn up. The earth and all that is in it will be burned up.

                      Yes, clearly, if annihilation of the entire universe was meant by Peter, then this would contradict John's account:
                      Rev 20.And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
                      What is the timing of this imprisonment?

                      John sees a great wonder in heaven:

                      Re 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

                      In Gen 37:9-10 Joseph had a dream, and he dreamed that his 11 brothers (or tribes of his father Israel) were symbolized by eleven stars. The stars represent the Children of Israel. These twelve stars a crown of the woman symbolize "The Covenant Children of Israel".

                      The woman is about to give birth, and a great red dragon stood before the woman ready to deliver to devour her child as soon as it was born (Rev 12:2-4). The tail of the dragon drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. In vs 5 we read that the woman delivered a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and the child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

                      This is a depiction of the birth of Christ which came out of the nation of Israel, from the tribe of Judah.

                      Then beginning in verse 6 we read that the woman (Church of Old Covenant Israel) fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared her a place where she should be fed a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

                      Acts 7:37-38 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he that was in the church in the wilderness

                      Beginning in vs 7-9 John describes a war in heaven against Michael and his angels, and the dragon and his angels. This war ends with the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan being cast out of heaven to the earth and his angels being cast out with him. Finally in vss 10-11 John hears a loud voice from heaven proclaiming "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren has been cast down"

                      12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

                      Now compare this passage from chapter 12 with the passage from chapter 20. Rev 20 like Rev 12 depict Christ defeating Satan. From other passages we know that it was by His victorious death and resurrection that Satan was defeated. They speak of Satan being cast out of heaven and bound. These two chapters are speaking of the same time which began with the first advent of Christ coming to this earth, His defeat of Satan, and casting he and his demonic hosts from heaven and binding Satan for the duration of time until his little season. The differing times given are not literal but symbolic of the entire universal Church age. We even find in both chapters saints who died for the Word of God and their testimony of Jesus.

                      When reading Revelation you will notice that only a portion, though a large portion, of mankind is destroyed. In one place we read that 1/4 of humanity (Rev 6.8), and in another place 1/3 of humanity (Rev 9.15), is destroyed at the coming of the Lord. And we read that during the sounding of the 7 trumpets, 1/3 of earth is destroyed--not the entire earth (Rev 8).

                      So the conclusion I must draw is that the destruction of the universe Peter refers to is actually an earthly judgment that affects only a portion of the earth as well as Satan's rule over the heavens. I don't know how else to explain it since we read elsewhere in the Scriptures that heaven and earth were created to endure forever.
                      Many judgements come upon this earth prior to Christ's Second Coming, but only one will be complete, and consume the whole earth. That will be as Peter clearly describes. The whole must be consumed by the cleansing fires in order for it to be made new again, without sin, decay and death. For as you have said the earth remains forever, but it must be made new again.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                        When I read Scripture, I find only a two age model. Scripture clearly speaks of "this age" and the "age to come".
                        There are multiple ages to come.

                        Eph_2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                          What is the timing of this imprisonment?

                          John sees a great wonder in heaven:

                          Re 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

                          In Gen 37:9-10 Joseph had a dream, and he dreamed that his 11 brothers (or tribes of his father Israel) were symbolized by eleven stars. The stars represent the Children of Israel. These twelve stars a crown of the woman symbolize "The Covenant Children of Israel".

                          The woman is about to give birth, and a great red dragon stood before the woman ready to deliver to devour her child as soon as it was born (Rev 12:2-4). The tail of the dragon drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. In vs 5 we read that the woman delivered a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and the child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

                          This is a depiction of the birth of Christ which came out of the nation of Israel, from the tribe of Judah.

                          Then beginning in verse 6 we read that the woman (Church of Old Covenant Israel) fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared her a place where she should be fed a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

                          Acts 7:37-38 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he that was in the church in the wilderness

                          Beginning in vs 7-9 John describes a war in heaven against Michael and his angels, and the dragon and his angels. This war ends with the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan being cast out of heaven to the earth and his angels being cast out with him. Finally in vss 10-11 John hears a loud voice from heaven proclaiming "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren has been cast down"

                          12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

                          Now compare this passage from chapter 12 with the passage from chapter 20. Rev 20 like Rev 12 depict Christ defeating Satan. From other passages we know that it was by His victorious death and resurrection that Satan was defeated. They speak of Satan being cast out of heaven and bound. These two chapters are speaking of the same time which began with the first advent of Christ coming to this earth, His defeat of Satan, and casting he and his demonic hosts from heaven and binding Satan for the duration of time until his little season. The differing times given are not literal but symbolic of the entire universal Church age. We even find in both chapters saints who died for the Word of God and their testimony of Jesus.



                          Many judgements come upon this earth prior to Christ's Second Coming, but only one will be complete, and consume the whole earth. That will be as Peter clearly describes. The whole must be consumed by the cleansing fires in order for it to be made new again, without sin, decay and death. For as you have said the earth remains forever, but it must be made new again.
                          I agree the earth must be made new again. What I don't agree with is that the Millennium is equal to the NT age. Yes, there may be a comparison of the Woman clothed with the sun in Rev 12 with Israel, perhaps depicted as a Christian remnant. But the Millennium happens *after* the coming of Christ, and not before. It is after Christ comes that Satan is bound, allowing there to be peace on earth.

                          This view seems confirmed by the fact that the earliest Church Fathers, to follow after the Apostle John, held to belief in a literal Millennium, believing that that was what John taught. But it's something we have to decide for ourselves. I do think the destruction of the heavens and the earth have to do with a transition. To be honest, I don't know how to reconcile the language used with what I believe. But it's honestly where I'm at.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                            That might be a problem for your doctrine??? The only way the return of Christ and the millennium take place together in this age, is IF the millennial period is now! For once Christ comes a Second time this earth and everything on it will be burned up!
                            It doesn't follow that if the millennial period is found in this age that it must be running currently. All kinds of circumstances and situations have come about in this age that are not running currently. I see no reason to conclude that the millennial period is running currently. And I see no reason to conclude that the millennial period is located in the age to come. It makes more sense to me to conclude that the millennial period is the final thousand years of this age, which begins when Jesus returns to rule the earth with a rod of iron.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              I agree the earth must be made new again. What I don't agree with is that the Millennium is equal to the NT age. Yes, there may be a comparison of the Woman clothed with the sun in Rev 12 with Israel, perhaps depicted as a Christian remnant. But the Millennium happens *after* the coming of Christ, and not before. It is after Christ comes that Satan is bound, allowing there to be peace on earth.
                              Randy, mortal, corruptible mankind cannot inhabit the new earth. There will be no more death then.

                              Rev. 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

                              If the millennium is after Christ's Second Coming who can survive the all-encompassing fire that comes down from God out of heaven when Christ comes again?

                              This view seems confirmed by the fact that the earliest Church Fathers, to follow after the Apostle John, held to belief in a literal Millennium, believing that that was what John taught. But it's something we have to decide for ourselves. I do think the destruction of the heavens and the earth have to do with a transition. To be honest, I don't know how to reconcile the language used with what I believe. But it's honestly where I'm at.
                              Yes, the early Church Fathers did believe in the millennium, but they did not believe that anything or anyone would be spared from the fires that come down from heaven. And to my knowledge none of them believed the millennium would come AFTER Christ's Second Coming. We have to reconcile the millennium with ALL the Scriptures have to say. It is because the Scriptures cannot be reconciled, and confusion reigns that I put away the doctrine that teaches a literal millennium and learned from my own studies the only end time doctrine that is logical, and does not force contradiction into the Word that I came to embrace the doctrine of Amil. I hope this is helpful for you.

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