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Does the New Testament teach that the bottomless pit is currently inhabited?

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  • Does the New Testament teach that the bottomless pit is currently inhabited?

    Hello Christians

    2 Pet 2:4

    KJV: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Greek: Tartaros), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

    MKJV: "For God did not spare the angels who sinned, but thrust them down into Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, being reserved to judgment."

    05020 G5020 ταρταρόω tartaroō tar-tar-o'-o
    From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

    The Greek word Tartarus or Tartaros originates in Greek mythology. It was considered the deep abyss which was the dungeon of torment for the wicked. This is how the word was carried over into the Greek New Testament.

    There is no truth in Greek mythology, but according to the New Testament, including the Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, the concept of the abyss is rooted in truth and reality - but Satan is not there yet:

    John 12:31: ""Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

    Rev 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

    Past and Present

    Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

    Past and Present

    Gen 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

    End of the Age

    Rev 13:2 "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

    Rev 13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

    Rev 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

    Rev 20: 1-3 "And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time."

    It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and so we should take Him on His word, shouldn't we?

    He did not tell us that Satan was bound at the cross. He told us that Satan was defeated at the cross and lost the ability to accuse the brethren before God, because of the blood of Jesus - and so Satan was confined to earth, where to this very day he continues his war against "the rest of the woman's seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of jesus Christ".

    Why would anyone want to put fallen angels into the abyss other than the ones the New Testament tells us are currently in the abyss?

    2 Pet 2:4

    KJV: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Greek: Tartatos), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

    Rev 9:1-3 "And the fifth angel sounded. And I saw a star fall from the heaven to the earth, and it was given the key to the abyss (Greek: abussos). And he opened the abyss; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And out of the smoke came forth locusts onto the earth. And authority was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have authority."

    Rev 9:11 "And they had a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit (Greek: abussos), whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in Greek his name is Apollyon."

    We should never add to the scriptures what we have been told in the scriptures, nor should we take away anything from the scriptures: This is THE ONLY abyss mentioned in scripture, and according to scripture, Satan is not yet bound there - but these other angels who sinned are there - and it is THEY who will be let loose at the end of the Age, according to our Lord's Revelation to us.

    Satan will be handed the key to the abyss at the close of the Age, and he will let those fallen angels loose. He is their king. After the beast and false prophet have been defeated and cast into the lake of fire, Satan and his angels will be locked up in Tartarus (the abyss) for a thousand years. This is what Jesus literally said - in His Revelation. He spoke of it happening following His return. Why turn it into a metaphor for the period in-between the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus and His return?

    The above is the Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, not mine.

    My Opinion follows:

    There is a reason God will hand the keys to the abyss over to Satan at the close of the age and allow him to let those angels who are bound there loose:

    Rev 13:4 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

    How many people in this world - in the USA and in the West - are already openly (and proudly) worshiping Satan?

  • #2
    Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post
    Hello Christians

    2 Pet 2:4

    KJV: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Greek: Tartaros), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

    MKJV: "For God did not spare the angels who sinned, but thrust them down into Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, being reserved to judgment."

    05020 G5020 ταρταρόω tartaroō tar-tar-o'-o
    From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

    The Greek word Tartarus or Tartaros originates in Greek mythology. It was considered the deep abyss which was the dungeon of torment for the wicked. This is how the word was carried over into the Greek New Testament.

    There is no truth in Greek mythology, but according to the New Testament, including the Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, the concept of the abyss is rooted in truth and reality - but Satan is not there yet:

    John 12:31: ""Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

    Rev 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

    Past and Present

    Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

    Past and Present

    Gen 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

    End of the Age

    Rev 13:2 "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

    Rev 13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

    Rev 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

    Rev 20: 1-3 "And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time."

    It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and so we should take Him on His word, shouldn't we?

    He did not tell us that Satan was bound at the cross. He told us that Satan was defeated at the cross and lost the ability to accuse the brethren before God, because of the blood of Jesus - and so Satan was confined to earth, where to this very day he continues his war against "the rest of the woman's seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of jesus Christ".

    Why would anyone want to put fallen angels into the abyss other than the ones the New Testament tells us are currently in the abyss?

    2 Pet 2:4

    KJV: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Greek: Tartatos), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

    Rev 9:1-3 "And the fifth angel sounded. And I saw a star fall from the heaven to the earth, and it was given the key to the abyss (Greek: abussos). And he opened the abyss; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And out of the smoke came forth locusts onto the earth. And authority was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have authority."

    Rev 9:11 "And they had a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit (Greek: abussos), whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in Greek his name is Apollyon."

    We should never add to the scriptures what we have been told in the scriptures, nor should we take away anything from the scriptures: This is THE ONLY abyss mentioned in scripture, and according to scripture, Satan is not yet bound there - but these other angels who sinned are there - and it is THEY who will be let loose at the end of the Age, according to our Lord's Revelation to us.

    Satan will be handed the key to the abyss at the close of the Age, and he will let those fallen angels loose. He is their king. After the beast and false prophet have been defeated and cast into the lake of fire, Satan and his angels will be locked up in Tartarus (the abyss) for a thousand years. This is what Jesus literally said - in His Revelation. He spoke of it happening following His return. Why turn it into a metaphor for the period in-between the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus and His return?

    The above is the Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, not mine.

    My Opinion follows:

    There is a reason God will hand the keys to the abyss over to Satan at the close of the age and allow him to let those angels who are bound there loose:

    Rev 13:4 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

    How many people in this world - in the USA and in the West - are already openly (and proudly) worshiping Satan?
    It is common belief that when good men die they go to heaven. The Reformation addressed this and came up with when a man believes in Jesus and he dies, he goes to heaven. But is this the revelation of scripture? The Revelation of scripture shows the following:
    • Some men went to heaven. But upon investigation they were ALL LIVING (e.g. Enoch, Elijah and our Lord Jesus). And further, they will all return to earth.
    • At death, the Tripartite man is ripped apart. His body goes back to the earth. His spirit returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). His soul goes to Hades in the center or heart of the earth.
    • At death, a man is naked and unclean. He could never appear in heaven. The word "Hades" means "unseen". God cannot look upon the unclean and the naked
    • At Noah's time, "and after this", angels mated with human women. These angels are, as in the OP, kept in Tartaroo till the White Throne Judgement. But they are not dead - only imprisoned
    • Demons seem to be disembodied spirits who seek a body. The demons are consigned to the sea. So they are not part of this thread's question
    Now, the first question is; Is Tartaroo the same place as Hades? The answer is that even if the are alongside each other, they are separated by (i) Name, and (ii) because one is a PLACE of the SOULS of men, and angels are SPIRITS (Ps.104:4, etc.). But they are most probably right next to each other. That is, both a feature of the "Bottomless Pit"

    The Beast, who is one of seven Roman kings, who has died, but who will be the eighth, comes out of the bottomless pit. But it is our Lord Jesus Who, having conquered death an broken out of Hades, has the keys to Hades (Rev.1:18). Resurrection needs our Lord Jesus (1st Cor.15:22, 45). So it seems then that our Lord Jesus has the keys to Hades, but leaves it to Abaddon to retain the keys of Tartaroo. But there is a twist. While Abaddon might have the keys to Tartaroo, and has the ability to open it to the creatures who torment men for five months, he actually plays fully into the hand of Christ, Whose job it is to pour out God's wrath on the earth. Once again, the angelic powers can try what they want, but eventually fulfill God's wishes.


    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post
      Satan will be handed the key to the abyss at the close of the Age, and he will let those fallen angels loose. He is their king.

      I pretty much agree with everything in the OP except what I have quoted above. I'm not convinced satan is the king meant. satan's main enemies are those that follow Christ. When the pit is being opened, what is being let loose are not being let loose to harm the people satan dislikes the most, they are being let loose to harm and torment followers of satan, not the followers of Christ instead. Therefore I'm not seeing the logic in how satan can be the king of the pit?


      Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
      2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
      3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
      4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by divaD View Post


        I pretty much agree with everything in the OP except what I have quoted above. I'm not convinced satan is the king meant. satan's main enemies are those that follow Christ. When the pit is being opened, what is being let loose are not being let loose to harm the people satan dislikes the most, they are being let loose to harm and torment followers of satan, not the followers of Christ instead. Therefore I'm not seeing the logic in how satan can be the king of the pit?


        Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
        2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
        3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
        4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
        Hello DivaD

        Yes, you may have a point there - but "the star fallen from heaven" is given the key, and one of the names of the king over them, is Appolyon. According to the Strong's Greek Dictionary, Appolyon is Satan:

        00623 G623 Ἀπολλύων Apolluōn ap-ol-loo'-ohn
        Active participle of G622; a destroyer (that is Satan): - Apollyon.

        The star "fallen from heaven unto the earth" is the one who is given the key to the abyss - so it can only be referring to an angel who was cast out of heaven to the earth (Rev 12), who fought against Michael and his angels:

        Rev 12:3-9 "And another sign was seen in the heavens. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads!

        And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth.

        And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child. And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, so that they might nourish her there a thousand, two hundred and sixty days.

        And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon.

        And the dragon and his angels warred, but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more. And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

        It does seem as though the king over them is the same angel who is given the key to the bottomless pit in order to let them out.

        The plagues that came upon Egypt did not necessarily affect God's people. In Egypt there were two witnesses who were given the power to bring the plagues upon the Egyptians, for example:

        Exo 7:19-20

        Two witnesses in Egypt:

        "And the LORD spoke to Moses, Say to Aaron, Take your rod, and stretch out your hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their canals, and upon their pools, and upon every reservoir of their waters, that they may become blood. And blood shall be throughout all the land of Egypt, both in wooden and in stone vessels. Exod 7:20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded. And he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants. And all the waters in the river were turned to blood."

        The two witnesses of the Revelation:

        Rev 11:6 "These have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire"

        The third plague/bowl of wrath:

        Rev 16:4-6 "And the third angel poured out his vial on the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood. And I heard the angel of the waters say, Righteous is the Lord, who is, and was, and who will be, because You have judged these things, since they have poured out the blood of the saints and prophets; and You gave them blood to drink, for they were deserving."

        So it's not an unusual thing for the plagues of the Revelation not to affect the saints.

        That opens another whole can of worms - because so many Christians believe that seven last plagues/bowls of wrath follow the resurrection - but it's a whole new subject, and suffice to say here that in the middle of the sixth bowl of wrath Jesus interjects with a warning that He is coming as a thief and He exhorts His followers to watch and to keep their garments, lest they walk naked and they see their shame. Straight after this we read about the armies of the beast being gathered for the battle of Armageddon.

        The type/antitype:

        The destruction of Pharaoh's army = the deliverance of the saints. The destruction of the armies of the beast = the deliverance of the saints (but I know I'm going to get a LOT of disagreement to that statement! - I've shown it in my video titled "The Real Great Tribulation" if anyone can watch the whole video).

        What is being described in the fifth trumpet is, I believe a plague. It does not have to affect the saints - and as you stated, we are told it won't.

        However as far as the king over them is concerned, whether correctly or incorrectly (and I believe it's correctly), the Strong's Greek Dictionary describes Appolyon as Satan.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Walls View Post

          It is common belief that when good men die they go to heaven. The Reformation addressed this and came up with when a man believes in Jesus and he dies, he goes to heaven. But is this the revelation of scripture? The Revelation of scripture shows the following:
          • Some men went to heaven. But upon investigation they were ALL LIVING (e.g. Enoch, Elijah and our Lord Jesus). And further, they will all return to earth.
          • At death, the Tripartite man is ripped apart. His body goes back to the earth. His spirit returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). His soul goes to Hades in the center or heart of the earth.
          • At death, a man is naked and unclean. He could never appear in heaven. The word "Hades" means "unseen". God cannot look upon the unclean and the naked
          • At Noah's time, "and after this", angels mated with human women. These angels are, as in the OP, kept in Tartaroo till the White Throne Judgement. But they are not dead - only imprisoned
          • Demons seem to be disembodied spirits who seek a body. The demons are consigned to the sea. So they are not part of this thread's question
          Now, the first question is; Is Tartaroo the same place as Hades? The answer is that even if the are alongside each other, they are separated by (i) Name, and (ii) because one is a PLACE of the SOULS of men, and angels are SPIRITS (Ps.104:4, etc.). But they are most probably right next to each other. That is, both a feature of the "Bottomless Pit"

          The Beast, who is one of seven Roman kings, who has died, but who will be the eighth, comes out of the bottomless pit. But it is our Lord Jesus Who, having conquered death an broken out of Hades, has the keys to Hades (Rev.1:18). Resurrection needs our Lord Jesus (1st Cor.15:22, 45). So it seems then that our Lord Jesus has the keys to Hades, but leaves it to Abaddon to retain the keys of Tartaroo. But there is a twist. While Abaddon might have the keys to Tartaroo, and has the ability to open it to the creatures who torment men for five months, he actually plays fully into the hand of Christ, Whose job it is to pour out God's wrath on the earth. Once again, the angelic powers can try what they want, but eventually fulfill God's wishes.

          Hello Walls. I disagree with you on what the scripture tells us regarding those who are in Christ.

          You are quoting scriptures which were written regarding the abode of the departed souls before Jesus died on our behalf, went into Hades on our behalf, and rose again on the third day - and you are speaking as thought the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus made absolutely no difference to what happens to those who are in Christ when they die.

          This is what we are told about where those in Christ are now (not only where they will be):-

          "(God) hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6)

          "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3)

          Rom 14:8-9 "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living"

          Phil 1:21-23 " For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor. Yet I do not know what I shall choose.

          For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better."

          Before the death. resurrection and ascension of Jesus our Savior He told us a parable in which we saw Lazarus being "in Abraham's bosom". No doubt, this was where the souls of those who had like-faith in the Word of God that Noah had, and that Abraham had, went when they died - but now, those of us who believe in Christ and abide in Christ are in Christ (and where is Christ?).

          There was a chasm which existed between "Abraham's bosom" and the rest - and either hades was a separate place or the chasm existed between one part of the abode of the dead (sheol in Hebrew or hades in the Greek), and another. We are not told enough in the Bible to know for sure - but we are explicitly told where the citizenship of those who die in Christ is - it's where He is:

          Heb 9:24 "or Christ has not entered into the Holy of Holies made with hands, which are the figures of the true, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."

          Rev 21:9-10 "And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God,"

          The death Jesus died, he died on behalf of us. His descended into hades, on behalf of us. He rose again from the dead on behalf of us. He lives in us:

          John 17:20-21 "And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word, that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me."

          John 14:19-20 "Yet a little while and the world does not see Me any more. But you see Me. Because I live, you shall live also. At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."

          Thanks to Jesus our Savior, the souls of the departed now go to where their citizenship was while they were alive in their bodies - whether in Christ (to be with Christ, just as Lazarus was found in "Abaraham's bosom"), or not in Christ.

          Comment


          • #6
            I believe that Rev12:12 [Satan and his angels cast down unto the earth (and thereafter limited to that sphere)] occurs at the same point in time that Rev9:1-3[12] occurs [key to pit / abyss, and "opened"... at the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe" (see also Rev8:13)], and that this point in time is the MID-point of the 7-yrs

            (i.e. at the same point in time that other passages also refer to [like Matt24:15 and 2Th2:4 and Rev13:5-7 and Dan12:1-4,10, etc], and when thereafter the 2nd half of the trib is specifically called "the GREAT tribulation"... with 1260 days remaining until Christ's Second Coming to the earth, FOR the commencement of promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom--so yes, there will be "saints" existing in and throughout the trib years, those having come to faith WITHIN the trib yrs themselves [i.e. FOLLOWING "our Rapture"/"THE Departure"], and many of whom will go on to ENTER the MK age in mortal bodies [like Dan12:12 and Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 and Lk19:12,15,17,19 and their parallels, and Matt25:31-34, etc...], who will be capable of reproducing/bearing children; these "saints," however, are not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [to/of whom "our Rapture" SOLELY pertains, not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints (Dan12:13, Job19:25-26, Jn11:24-26), not to Trib saints (Rev20:4b, Rev6:9-11), and not to MK saints (those born in the MK age are born WELL-AFTER the Rapture will have taken place--this does not pertain to them, nor to any of these listed here)])

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post
              Hello Christians

              2 Pet 2:4

              KJV: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Greek: Tartaros), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

              MKJV: "For God did not spare the angels who sinned, but thrust them down into Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, being reserved to judgment."

              05020 G5020 ταρταρόω tartaroō tar-tar-o'-o
              From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

              The Greek word Tartarus or Tartaros originates in Greek mythology. It was considered the deep abyss which was the dungeon of torment for the wicked. This is how the word was carried over into the Greek New Testament.

              There is no truth in Greek mythology, but according to the New Testament, including the Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, the concept of the abyss is rooted in truth and reality - but Satan is not there yet:

              John 12:31: ""Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

              Rev 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

              Past and Present

              Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

              Past and Present

              Gen 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

              End of the Age

              Rev 13:2 "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

              Rev 13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

              Rev 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

              Rev 20: 1-3 "And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time."

              It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and so we should take Him on His word, shouldn't we?

              He did not tell us that Satan was bound at the cross. He told us that Satan was defeated at the cross and lost the ability to accuse the brethren before God, because of the blood of Jesus - and so Satan was confined to earth, where to this very day he continues his war against "the rest of the woman's seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of jesus Christ".

              Why would anyone want to put fallen angels into the abyss other than the ones the New Testament tells us are currently in the abyss?

              2 Pet 2:4

              KJV: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Greek: Tartatos), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

              Rev 9:1-3 "And the fifth angel sounded. And I saw a star fall from the heaven to the earth, and it was given the key to the abyss (Greek: abussos). And he opened the abyss; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And out of the smoke came forth locusts onto the earth. And authority was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have authority."

              Rev 9:11 "And they had a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit (Greek: abussos), whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in Greek his name is Apollyon."

              We should never add to the scriptures what we have been told in the scriptures, nor should we take away anything from the scriptures: This is THE ONLY abyss mentioned in scripture, and according to scripture, Satan is not yet bound there - but these other angels who sinned are there - and it is THEY who will be let loose at the end of the Age, according to our Lord's Revelation to us.

              Satan will be handed the key to the abyss at the close of the Age, and he will let those fallen angels loose. He is their king. After the beast and false prophet have been defeated and cast into the lake of fire, Satan and his angels will be locked up in Tartarus (the abyss) for a thousand years. This is what Jesus literally said - in His Revelation. He spoke of it happening following His return. Why turn it into a metaphor for the period in-between the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus and His return?

              The above is the Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, not mine.

              My Opinion follows:

              There is a reason God will hand the keys to the abyss over to Satan at the close of the age and allow him to let those angels who are bound there loose:

              Rev 13:4 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

              How many people in this world - in the USA and in the West - are already openly (and proudly) worshiping Satan?
              Scripture tells us that Satan is bound so that he can deceive the nations no more. How is Satan able to deceive the nations? According to the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke the wicked one, Satan, or the devil had the ability to keep the Word from penetrating the hearts of those who do not understand, so that when they hear the Word they cannot believe and be saved. So if Satan is not currently bound, how are Gentile nations hearing the Word and believing?

              Matthew 13:19 (KJV) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
              Mark 4:15 (KJV) And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
              Luke 8:12 (KJV) Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                I believe that Rev12:12 [Satan and his angels cast down unto the earth (and thereafter limited to that sphere)] occurs at the same point in time that Rev9:1-3[12] occurs [key to pit / abyss, and "opened"... at the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe" (see also Rev8:13)], and that this point in time is the MID-point of the 7-yrs

                (i.e. at the same point in time that other passages also refer to [like Matt24:15 and 2Th2:4 and Rev13:5-7 and Dan12:1-4,10, etc], and when thereafter the 2nd half of the trib is specifically called "the GREAT tribulation"... with 1260 days remaining until Christ's Second Coming to the earth, FOR the commencement of promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom--so yes, there will be "saints" existing in and throughout the trib years, those having come to faith WITHIN the trib yrs themselves [i.e. FOLLOWING "our Rapture"/"THE Departure"], and many of whom will go on to ENTER the MK age in mortal bodies [like Dan12:12 and Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 and Lk19:12,15,17,19 and their parallels, and Matt25:31-34, etc...], who will be capable of reproducing/bearing children; these "saints," however, are not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [to/of whom "our Rapture" SOLELY pertains, not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints (Dan12:13, Job19:25-26, Jn11:24-26), not to Trib saints (Rev20:4b, Rev6:9-11), and not to MK saints (those born in the MK age are born WELL-AFTER the Rapture will have taken place--this does not pertain to them, nor to any of these listed here)])
                Hello TheDivineWatermark

                I don't agree with the Pre-Trib (or even Pre-Wrath) rapture view of the last days - but because that subject is such a lengthy subject (of which I'm sure you've heard all the arguments put forward in disagreement with your views regarding it), let me comment only about what you said about the "when" Satan was cast out of heaven to the earth, so as not to open the other "can of worms":

                Jesus:

                John 12:31-33 "Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself. But He said this, signifying what kind of death He was about to die."

                So therefore,

                "..they overcame him (Satan) because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death.":

                Rev 12:9-13, 17 "And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

                And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.

                And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death.

                Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time.

                And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who bore the man child...

                .. 17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war
                with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."


                Those verses speak both of (a) the time when Jesus died for our sins; and (b) clearly, the implication is a past and present one - and one which will culminate in "the star fallen from heaven" being given the key to the abyss in order that he may loose the angels which are bound there; and the king over them, whose name is Apollyon in the Greek, being permitted to give to the beast of Revelation 13 his power, his seat, and great authority, which in turn will culminate in the battle of Armageddon.

                So we agree and disagree all at the same time on that second part of what you said (regarding the timing of the angels in the abyss being loosed)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                  Scripture tells us that Satan is bound so that he can deceive the nations no more. How is Satan able to deceive the nations? According to the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke the wicked one, Satan, or the devil had the ability to keep the Word from penetrating the hearts of those who do not understand, so that when they hear the Word they cannot believe and be saved. So if Satan is not currently bound, how are Gentile nations hearing the Word and believing?

                  Matthew 13:19 (KJV) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
                  Mark 4:15 (KJV) And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
                  Luke 8:12 (KJV) Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
                  Hello Roger W

                  God bless you brother.

                  If the devil has been bound as you say, then can you explain what is meant by the following:-

                  Eph 2:1-2 "And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now (Greek: nun, "of present time") works in the children of disobedience;"

                  03568 G3568 νῦν nun noon
                  A primary particle of present time; “now”
                  (as adverb of date a transition or emphasis); also as noun or adjective present or immediate: - henceforth + hereafter of late soon present this (time). See also G3569 G3570.

                  II Cor 3:3-4 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them."

                  1 John 14:30 "I shall no longer speak many things with you, for the ruler of this world comes, and he has nothing in Me."

                  Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

                  Also, please explain why Jesus, in His Revelation, speaks of Satan being bound only following the defeat of the beast, and the same beast & false prophet being cast into the Lake of Fire?

                  Also, please explain why Jesus says in His Revelation that when Satan is bound, he is unable to deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years have expired.

                  If Satan has not been deceiving the nations, then please explain:-

                  1. why the Jews are still in rejection of Jesus and following their rabbis who say that Jesus is not the Messiah, and is not the Son of God, and did not die for their sins and the sins of the whole world; and

                  2. Where Islam came from and why billions of Muslims are deceived into believing the same things regarding Jesus that the Jews believe; and

                  3. Where the teaching of the latter-day saints, the Jehovah's witnesses, etc etc came from; and

                  4. Where the belief came from among Christians that we should not become sick and die because Jesus bore all our sickness and if we become sick and die it's because we lack faith, and where the belief came from among Christians that we should all be wealthy and prosperous people?

                  Also, since you say God has bound Satan, can you explain why God did not bind Satan after the flood? Or after Seth was born? Why did God allow Satan to deceive Eve in the first place?

                  If Adam and Eve were tested through the fact that God allowed Satan to attempt to deceive them (which we all know he did very successfully), and if all the sons of Adam, including the descendants of Noah, have all been tested in every generation in the same way until the time of Christ, then why should the sons of Adam not have been tested in the same way since Christ died for the sins of the world?

                  Have the sons of Adam not been deceived at all since Christ died for us, and rose again, and ascended into heaven?

                  If you can give an adequate answer for all the above, then maybe I might reconsider my opinion that according to the Revelation of Jesus, Satan was defeated at the cross, but not bound at the cross.

                  Love you, brother.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post
                    [...] and one which will culminate[/B] in "the star fallen from heaven" being given the key to the abyss in order that he may loose the angels which are bound there; and the king over them, whose name is Apollyon in the Greek, being permitted to give to the beast of Revelation 13 his power, his seat, and great authority, which in turn will culminate in the battle of Armageddon.

                    So we agree and disagree all at the same time on that second part of what you said (regarding the timing of the angels in the abyss being loosed)
                    Yes, I thought we seem to agree on the timing of this / these... but let me make sure we are saying basically the same thing... Are you saying (what I am) that [at least one aspect of] Satan being "cast down unto the earth" occurs at the same time that Rev9:1-3[12] occurs [5th Trumpet events], and that these are at [what I am calling] the MID-point, that is, when 1260 days are yet remaining... ?? Is this your same [general] view, especially as to the TIMING of these particular items (that 1260 days remain till His Second Coming to the earth, from this point in time that these events occur)?


                    Often times people state that they believe the "7th Trumpet" is at this [what I'm calling] MID-point (with 1260 days remaining), but I do not believe that is the case.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post

                      Yes, you may have a point there - but "the star fallen from heaven" is given the key, and one of the names of the king over them, is Appolyon. According to the Strong's Greek Dictionary, Appolyon is Satan:

                      00623 G623 Ἀπολλύων Apolluōn ap-ol-loo'-ohn
                      Active participle of G622; a destroyer (that is Satan): - Apollyon.

                      The star "fallen from heaven unto the earth" is the one who is given the key to the abyss - so it can only be referring to an angel who was cast out of heaven to the earth (Rev 12), who fought against Michael and his angels:

                      Rev 12:3-9 "And another sign was seen in the heavens. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads!

                      And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth.

                      And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child. And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, so that they might nourish her there a thousand, two hundred and sixty days.

                      And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon.

                      And the dragon and his angels warred, but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more. And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

                      It does seem as though the king over them is the same angel who is given the key to the bottomless pit in order to let them out.

                      On the surface, all of this sounds very reasonable, because I, too, in light of all these things, agree that it does make it seem like satan would have to be the falling star in verse 1, thus the one opening the pit. But I just can't figure out why he would be loosing things from the pit that would benefit God more than it would benefit him? I would think he would prefer that what is being let out of the pit, that they would be let out to hurt and torment the ones he dislikes the most, rather than the ones God dislikes the most.


                      Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post
                      The plagues that came upon Egypt did not necessarily affect God's people. In Egypt there were two witnesses who were given the power to bring the plagues upon the Egyptians, for example:

                      Exo 7:19-20

                      Two witnesses in Egypt:

                      "And the LORD spoke to Moses, Say to Aaron, Take your rod, and stretch out your hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their canals, and upon their pools, and upon every reservoir of their waters, that they may become blood. And blood shall be throughout all the land of Egypt, both in wooden and in stone vessels. Exod 7:20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded. And he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants. And all the waters in the river were turned to blood."

                      The two witnesses of the Revelation:

                      Rev 11:6 "These have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire"

                      The third plague/bowl of wrath:

                      Rev 16:4-6 "And the third angel poured out his vial on the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood. And I heard the angel of the waters say, Righteous is the Lord, who is, and was, and who will be, because You have judged these things, since they have poured out the blood of the saints and prophets; and You gave them blood to drink, for they were deserving."

                      So it's not an unusual thing for the plagues of the Revelation not to affect the saints.
                      While all that is indeed true, satan wasn't behind what the Two witnesses in Egypt were able to do at that time, God was. And the same would have to be true of the two witnesses in Rev 11. Yet in Rev 9, if satan is meant in verse 1, he would be behind what the locusts are let out to do, not hurt and torment the ones he dislikes the most, but let out to hurt and torment the ones God dislikes the most, satan's followers.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

                        Yes, I thought we seem to agree on the timing of this / these... but let me make sure we are saying basically the same thing... Are you saying (what I am) that [at least one aspect of] Satan being "cast down unto the earth" occurs at the same time that Rev9:1-3[12] occurs [5th Trumpet events], and that these are at [what I am calling] the MID-point, that is, when 1260 days are yet remaining... ?? Is this your same [general] view, especially as to the TIMING of these particular items (that 1260 days remain till His Second Coming to the earth, from this point in time that these events occur)?


                        Often times people state that they believe the "7th Trumpet" is at this [what I'm calling] MID-point (with 1260 days remaining), but I do not believe that is the case.
                        Wow, it's a big subject. In my profile is a link to my site and in my site is a link to my YouTube channel and in my YouTube channel is a video titled "The Real Great Tribulation" where I put all the scriptures together which show where and why I disagree on the Pre-Trib (and even the Pre-Wrath) view. I don't knock anyone else's views in the video - I just put the scriptures in easy-to-follow (for Christians) video-presentations.

                        So let's start first on the "seventieth week of Daniel" - I'm 100% convinced that Christ was cut off (as Dan7:26 states) after (Hebrew: achar) the 62 weeks that followed the seven weeks counting from the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem - i.o.w in the seventieth week. So let's cut all my reasons out, for now (which I give in the short video-presentation I created titled "the fulfilling of the seventieth week of Daniel").

                        I can give all the reasons and scriptures here, but the short answer to your question is, "No, I don't fully agree with what I think you believe, going on what you have said, regarding the final seven years of the age".

                        Definitely the great tribulation (Greek: megas thlipsis) in scripture always refers to the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast of Revelation 13 - I list every single time the New Testament speaks about the (Greek: thlipsis) tribulation of the saints in my video, and the only three times the Greek New Testament uses the adjective megas (great) with the word thlipsis (tribulation) - two of which are in the Revelation, and are explicitly speaking about a great tribulation to be experienced by Christians.

                        When Luke, in his record of the Lord's Olivet Discourse, speaks about the vengeance and great distress and wrath which Jesus said would be experienced by those in Judea when the armies surround Jerusalem, as well as the same that would be experienced by unbelievers at the end of the age, Luke does not use the word thlipsis (tribulation) to describe it.

                        War against the saints:

                        Rev 13:5-7 "And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months. And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven.

                        And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them.
                        And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation."

                        Mat 24:9-10 "Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
                        And then many will be offended, and will betray one another, and will hate one another."

                        This is how Jesus begins talking about the (Greek: thlipsis) tribulation which He says will be followed by the sign of the Son of Man appearing and the angels being sent to gather the saints from one end of the heavens to the other. In the midst of speaking about the tribulation of the saints, He says "therefore when you see the abomination of desolation.. : (etc), and states that there will be megas thlipsis (great tribulation) at that time, and that therefore those in Judea should flee when they see the AOD.

                        Remember that the bodies of the two witnesses will lie in Jerusalem.

                        War against the two witnesses:

                        Rev 11:7 "And when they complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them."

                        Duration of the beast's reign:

                        I think, from what you have said, that we both agree that the beast's reign will last 3 1/2 years (Daniel and Revelation agree on it) - but we are told explicitly that he (the beast) will war against the saints during that time and overcome them. Jesus will come as a thief in the night, yes - but there is only one resurrection/rapture day:

                        Rev 11: 11 (Resurrection of the two witnesses): "And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.

                        1 Thess 4:16 (Resurrection of the saints) "For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first."

                        Rev 11:12 (Resurrection of the two witnesses) "And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them."

                        1 Thess 4:17 (Resurrection of the saints) "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

                        1Thess 4:18 "Therefore comfort one another with these words."

                        What do you think, may be the reason the saints are told to comfort one another with these words?

                        So as you can see, I do not agree with the belief in either a Pre-Trib or Pre-Wrath rapture of the saints. At all - and I do not believe that the seventieth week of Daniel 7 has not been fulfilled - but I believe that there is a very good chance that the "Abomination of Desolation" will resurface - and I believe that there is a very high possibility that it's referring to a rebuilt temple which will be erected to replace the one which was destroyed 40 years after the seventieth week of Daniel came to its (chronological in time) completion.

                        God bless.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by divaD View Post


                          On the surface, all of this sounds very reasonable, because I, too, in light of all these things, agree that it does make it seem like satan would have to be the falling star in verse 1, thus the one opening the pit. But I just can't figure out why he would be loosing things from the pit that would benefit God more than it would benefit him? I would think he would prefer that what is being let out of the pit, that they would be let out to hurt and torment the ones he dislikes the most, rather than the ones God dislikes the most.




                          While all that is indeed true, satan wasn't behind what the Two witnesses in Egypt were able to do at that time, God was. And the same would have to be true of the two witnesses in Rev 11. Yet in Rev 9, if satan is meant in verse 1, he would be behind what the locusts are let out to do, not hurt and torment the ones he dislikes the most, but let out to hurt and torment the ones God dislikes the most, satan's followers.
                          Yes, but in Egypt Pharaoh's magicians were also bringing plagues upon the Egyptians, in answer to the plagues Moses and Aaron (the two witnesses in Egypt) were bringing upon Egypt - because it was Pharaoh's (the beast's) attempt to show that his magicians had as much power as Moses and Aaron.

                          I don't think Pharaoh cared very much about how it was affecting his own people - he was in competition with the God of the Hebrews.

                          For all we know, it could be that Satan will be attempting to harm the saints with that plague (whatever it is), but the saints will not be harmed, only those who worship the beast and the dragon that gives the beast its power will be harmed -

                          - but I'm speculating.

                          I understand why you say it doesn't seem logical why that would only be harming those who are not sealed with the seal of God - but there is always a reason for everything, even when we don't yet know the reason.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post

                            Hello Roger W

                            God bless you brother.

                            If the devil has been bound as you say, then can you explain what is meant by the following:-

                            Eph 2:1-2 "And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, [B]according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now (Greek: nun, "of present time") works in the children of disobedience;"
                            Thank you, May God bless you also!

                            The spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. The parable tells us the devil had the power to steal the word sown in the hearts of those who do not understand. It does not say that those who don't believe will all be released from his power. Those Gentiles who hear since the gospel and remain in unbelief, are not those who don't understand because the devil has taken the Word sown in their hearts. They, according to Scripture will not believe because they love the darkness, and will not come to the light to be saved.

                            John 1:5 (KJV) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

                            Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
                            Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
                            Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

                            The devil wants very much to keep those men who love darkness, for he knows that if they hear and understand they might turn to the Light and be saved. For salvation comes by hearing the Word of God. A good example of hearing and understanding, but choosing darkness over the Light, is found through looking at Old Covenant Israel. They alone had the oracles of God, they understood, and still refused the promised Messiah the prophets foretold.

                            Ro 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
                            Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
                            Ro 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

                            The nations of the world did not have the same advantage as the Jews. They had not the Word of God or the prophets. So they were in utter darkness, without God in the world. Until Satan was bound. If Satan had not been bound, then the Gentile nations who hear the Gospel but don't understand would not have the Gospel penetrate their hearts so they could believe and be saved.

                            So Paul tells the Ephesians that they once belonged to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. They were dead in trespasses and sins, because the devil kept them in darkness. But NOW they are made alive through Christ Jesus our Lord, by grace through faith when they heard the Gospel of life, and by the power of the Holy Spirit believed Christ, Who gave them eternal life!


                            II Cor 3:3-4 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them."
                            Another clear example of the truth of the parable. The Gospel is hid to them that are lost, not them that don't understand. So that light of Gospel should not dawn on them.

                            1 John 14:30 "I shall no longer speak many things with you, for the ruler of this world comes, and he has nothing in Me."
                            This is before Satan's binding. It is the cross that binds him. By His death Christ ended forever the devils ability to have power of death, to hold people in bondage to fear of death. How did Christ destroy the devil by His death? He cast him into a deep pit and bound him with a great chain, that he can no longer hold the nations in fear of death. This power too was something the devil had before he was bound in the pit. Now the nations hear, believe and are saved, and have passed from death to live forever.

                            Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
                            Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

                            Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
                            This is the beginning of the New Covenant Era, when Satan and his army were cast out of heaven through the birth of Christ. Satan will be bound by the cross.

                            Also, please explain why Jesus, in His Revelation, speaks of Satan being bound only following the defeat of the beast, and the same beast & false prophet being cast into the Lake of Fire?
                            You must reconcile all of Scripture so there is not contradiction. In Rev 19 there is no mention of Satan. It say only the beast and false prophet are cast into the LOF. Satan is not cast in until the thousand years expire. Both Rev 19 & 20 depict the same battle.

                            Also, please explain why Jesus says in His Revelation that when Satan is bound, he is unable to deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years have expired.

                            If Satan has not been deceiving the nations, then please explain:-

                            1. why the Jews are still in rejection of Jesus and following their rabbis who say that Jesus is not the Messiah, and is not the Son of God, and did not die for their sins and the sins of the whole world; and

                            2. Where Islam came from and why billions of Muslims are deceived into believing the same things regarding Jesus that the Jews believe; and

                            3. Where the teaching of the latter-day saints, the Jehovah's witnesses, etc etc came from; and

                            4. Where the belief came from among Christians that we should not become sick and die because Jesus bore all our sickness and if we become sick and die it's because we lack faith, and where the belief came from among Christians that we should all be wealthy and prosperous people?

                            Also, since you say God has bound Satan, can you explain why God did not bind Satan after the flood? Or after Seth was born? Why did God allow Satan to deceive Eve in the first place?

                            If Adam and Eve were tested through the fact that God allowed Satan to attempt to deceive them (which we all know he did very successfully), and if all the sons of Adam, including the descendants of Noah, have all been tested in every generation in the same way until the time of Christ, then why should the sons of Adam not have been tested in the same way since Christ died for the sins of the world?

                            Have the sons of Adam not been deceived at all since Christ died for us, and rose again, and ascended into heaven?

                            If you can give an adequate answer for all the above, then maybe I might reconsider my opinion that according to the Revelation of Jesus, Satan was defeated at the cross, but not bound at the cross.

                            Love you, brother.
                            I hear this same argument over and over. How can there still be so much sin and wickedness in the world if Satan is bound? Sin and wickedness and death did not come into the world through Satan. It came through temptation and fleshly desire. Satan's binding or loosing doesn't change that. The only thing that changes man's hearts is the Gospel, which man must believe to be saved. It is then and only then that the bondage to sin and death is broken.

                            For the very reason that great multitudes from all the nations of the earth are being saved since the cross is witness to the truth that Satan is now bound, and has been since the cross. Satan's defeat by the cross is what we find in Hebrews 2 that I quoted above. The cross has taken away the power Satan possessed to hold the nations in darkness and death. That does not mean that all people in every nation will hear, believe and be saved. Some as Scripture shows us will refuse the Light, and it is they whom Satan still has power over. Even though Satan himself is bound in the pit, remember that Satan is not without a mighty army, both human and spiritual. So Satan doesn't have to be free to hold people in bondage to sin and death. All who are in unbelief are of their father the Devil

                            Revelation 13:4 (KJV) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

                            Revelation 13:12 (KJV) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

                            Revelation 17:13 (KJV) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

                            John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

                            Hope this helps, peace be with you, brother.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                              Thank you, May God bless you also!

                              The spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. The parable tells us the devil had the power to steal the word sown in the hearts of those who do not understand. It does not say that those who don't believe will all be released from his power. Those Gentiles who hear since the gospel and remain in unbelief, are not those who don't understand because the devil has taken the Word sown in their hearts. They, according to Scripture will not believe because they love the darkness, and will not come to the light to be saved.

                              John 1:5 (KJV) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

                              Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
                              Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
                              Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

                              The devil wants very much to keep those men who love darkness, for he knows that if they hear and understand they might turn to the Light and be saved. For salvation comes by hearing the Word of God. A good example of hearing and understanding, but choosing darkness over the Light, is found through looking at Old Covenant Israel. They alone had the oracles of God, they understood, and still refused the promised Messiah the prophets foretold.

                              Ro 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
                              Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
                              Ro 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

                              The nations of the world did not have the same advantage as the Jews. They had not the Word of God or the prophets. So they were in utter darkness, without God in the world. Until Satan was bound. If Satan had not been bound, then the Gentile nations who hear the Gospel but don't understand would not have the Gospel penetrate their hearts so they could believe and be saved.

                              So Paul tells the Ephesians that they once belonged to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. They were dead in trespasses and sins, because the devil kept them in darkness. But NOW they are made alive through Christ Jesus our Lord, by grace through faith when they heard the Gospel of life, and by the power of the Holy Spirit believed Christ, Who gave them eternal life!




                              Another clear example of the truth of the parable. The Gospel is hid to them that are lost, not them that don't understand. So that light of Gospel should not dawn on them.



                              This is before Satan's binding. It is the cross that binds him. By His death Christ ended forever the devils ability to have power of death, to hold people in bondage to fear of death. How did Christ destroy the devil by His death? He cast him into a deep pit and bound him with a great chain, that he can no longer hold the nations in fear of death. This power too was something the devil had before he was bound in the pit. Now the nations hear, believe and are saved, and have passed from death to live forever.

                              Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
                              Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.



                              This is the beginning of the New Covenant Era, when Satan and his army were cast out of heaven through the birth of Christ. Satan will be bound by the cross.



                              You must reconcile all of Scripture so there is not contradiction. In Rev 19 there is no mention of Satan. It say only the beast and false prophet are cast into the LOF. Satan is not cast in until the thousand years expire. Both Rev 19 & 20 depict the same battle.



                              I hear this same argument over and over. How can there still be so much sin and wickedness in the world if Satan is bound? Sin and wickedness and death did not come into the world through Satan. It came through temptation and fleshly desire. Satan's binding or loosing doesn't change that. The only thing that changes man's hearts is the Gospel, which man must believe to be saved. It is then and only then that the bondage to sin and death is broken.

                              For the very reason that great multitudes from all the nations of the earth are being saved since the cross is witness to the truth that Satan is now bound, and has been since the cross. Satan's defeat by the cross is what we find in Hebrews 2 that I quoted above. The cross has taken away the power Satan possessed to hold the nations in darkness and death. That does not mean that all people in every nation will hear, believe and be saved. Some as Scripture shows us will refuse the Light, and it is they whom Satan still has power over. Even though Satan himself is bound in the pit, remember that Satan is not without a mighty army, both human and spiritual. So Satan doesn't have to be free to hold people in bondage to sin and death. All who are in unbelief are of their father the Devil

                              Revelation 13:4 (KJV) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

                              Revelation 13:12 (KJV) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

                              Revelation 17:13 (KJV) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

                              John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

                              Hope this helps, peace be with you, brother.
                              Thank you brother. I still disagree (for the reasons I gave), but that's OK with me - as long as you're in the ark, I'm happy.

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