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Does the New Testament teach that the bottomless pit is currently inhabited?

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  • Originally posted by XRose View Post
    Hell isn't real because all the dead's thoughts perished and so none would benefit from being thrown in your blazing fiery place? Therefore none of the evil dead who have ever lived and died could be in an imaginary place of fire and torture?
    It may be possible that I'm not understanding what you're saying despite reading your comments over and over. I am not sure whether you are making a firm statement of denial or asking a question? You must elaborate to help me. I hate quoting people out of context.

    But for what it's worth, here is an explanation of the two.

    In 1 Thess 4:16 Paul spoke about the resurrection of the dead in Christ from the grave/hell.

    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    According to Hosea 13:14 and 1 Cor 15:55; the last enemy of God to be judged will be death and hell/grave. This is fulfilled in Rev 20:14, some Bible translations use the Greek word, Hades.

    Now, let's look at the place of eternal punishment, a.k.a hellfire/lake of fire and brimstone and see what scripture has to say about it.

    Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Are you still denying that hell is real?

    Comment


    • 1 Thess 4:16 says THE DEAD will rise first! DEAD DEAD DEAD. Not live in an imaginary hell! DEAD! Those dead will be the 144,000 of the Lost Tribes aka British and Americans Christians killed in these last days.
      Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. How can hell be cast into a fire if it is already hell?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by XRose View Post

        The poltergeists that are filmed and the incubuses and succubuses that pester people in bed are evil angels fascinated with sex just as were the sons of GOD who fathered the Nephilim of Genesis 6.
        It does not make sense to me that angels, who were not created to procreate, why would they even have human type sperm or even why the need for testicles, and have the ability to procreate with our fair women, I do not believe in such thing as succubuses or female demons that seduce and rape men. They are fictional made up creatures.

        The fact vast numbers of people have reported seeing them but no-one has yet made good pictures or videos of UFOs, aliens, bigfoot, yeti, ghosts, poltergeists tells us their bodies look real to our eyes but not to film or digital cameras.
        I have seen hypnotised men believe they are pregnant and go into contractions, to eat imaginary food and think its some delicacy of meat. Our brains and thinking are susceptible to seeing what they want to see, there are those who have self hypnotised themselves by creating a suggestibility in their minds and repeating it over and over. So I do not believe the accounts I hear of ghosts or such things as its scientifically possible those with feeble unstable beggarly minds imagine things and while not real can 100 percent convince themselves they are.

        The fact vast numbers of people have reported seeing them but no-one has yet made good pictures or videos of UFOs, aliens, bigfoot, yeti, ghosts, poltergeists tells us their bodies look real to our eyes but not to film or digital cameras.
        Study video of UFOs to see how their shape seems to alter or change colour no matter who films them. At first I thought this lack of clarity might be due to lenses or exposure systems being unable to set correctly but now I'm convinced the vagueness is due to what is called 'vibrations' as they exist in a different plane to us.
        We cannot walk through walls yet ghosts can and even Jesus did when he came to convince Doubting Thomas.
        The fact certain Christians use these weak minded people and what they wrongly believe to convince them there might be other imaginary beings is a sad state of the times we live in. I know who the well known author you have got your views about the nephilim is, and why he wasn't more widely condemned by his so called peers I have no idea, professional courtesy in Christian circles has become a sad state of affairs.

        But seriously there are no demonic hybrid beings throughout the old testament, it is silent on them, then when one starts reading the bible in the New Testament its like where did all these demons come from, as if its an everyday common occurrence that people can be indwelt and tormented by these beings. Yet at the moment the world seems to have been swept clean of them like they have been cast out.

        And what did the Lord do on earth, he cast demons out, and the bible does not say they are cast back out into the atmosphere to regurgitate the whole sordid process over and over again.

        Then we find lots of pictures in the bible, that confirm this, In Luke 11 we have the strong man being bound when the kingdom of God has come upon Israel. Here the context is the Lord rebuking the Pharisees of their unbelief In verse 24 we have the interesting verses that say, when an unclean spirit goes out of a man he goes through dry places seeking rest he finds none, he says I will return to my house from which I came, the house is not the person that was swept cleaned for they became believers in the gospels, the house is the earth it has been swept clean.

        Verse 25 And when he comes he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

        So we can see the pit is opened in the future, Abaddon/Apollyon (Satan) and the demons re-enter earth and that the state of the earth is now worse and the demonic torment is stepped up a notch, the state of mankind is more depraved, and the mention of seven brings to mind the completeness of the last day or week of Daniel.

        I realise all these pictures are spiritual pictures like the Lord binding Satan(the strongman) so he can plunder his goods (that's us) but I think its so those of unstable minds can twist the scriptures and have a way out, so they can deny truth.



        You could not punch an angel or demon as your hand would go right through them as they are 'not solid.'
        Im really just pointing out how little I think of these so called demons by mocking there supposed threat level, if there were demons indwelling people today, I would cast them out and relieve the person of their torment, yet ive never met one.

        And going through walls is not really that difficult I myself have managed to walk through walls on more than one occasion.;D



        Comment


        • Originally posted by boangry View Post
          If you don't mind me asking when Satan deceives people does he keep them from coming to faith in God and does he deny them the chance of eternal life, Im of the opinion we blind ourselves and have ourselves to blame? It seems a little unfair to me if Satan can keep certain people in the dark especially if people don't realise hes in their heads controlling their thoughts or emotions? If that's what he does, sorry Im unsure how he is meant to work in the world today?
          Each individual is responsible for the choices he or she makes. Jesus spoke about the heart needing to be cleansed, and the Bible tells us that the heart is desperately wicked and without cure - but the New Testament (New Covenant) in Christ's blood gives us the cure.

          I cannot know that Jesus died for my sins unless I agree with the Holy Spirit every time He convicts me of my own sin. If I refuse the Holy Spirit when I hear His voice, and harden my heart, God is not going to keep prompting me to obey Him and believe in Jesus. The same goes for if I willfully continue in a sin I have been convicted of or ignore what I know is the will of God. An easy and common example is when a unmarried Christian couple choose to live together and be intimate without marriage. They're putting themselves in danger of the Holy Spirit leaving them in their sin and their wandering off from faith in Christ as a result, and eventually into belief in other religions or religious ideas.

          Satan's "job" (and he appointed himself and created the position for himself) is to produce other ideas making the Word of God a lie, as he has done this from the beginning, and he has produced all kinds of "other ways" and "other truth" for me to follow if I choose to harden my heart to the Holy Spirit of God. So it's a bit of both - but the ultimate choice lies with the individual who owns the heart - is He going to believe the Word of He who created him, or harden his heart to it, and believe the word of another which offers easier paths to so-called "nirvana" or to heaven or to paradise or spiritual bliss or "spiritual growth", OR WHATEVER?

          Originally posted by boangry View Post
          Did you have any thoughts on which group of angels the demons in the gospel accounts are?
          No (and this is the last time I'm allowing myself to get sucked into this discussion about demons/fallen angels).

          You have asked a few questions about the angels who are bound and now you're asking about demons. So let me start with the angels who Peter stated are bound:

          I know who many other Christians say they are - but Peter did not tell me (or you, or anyone else) which angels he was talking about - so I'm not guessing or assuming, like other Christians, that they're angels who, as many Christians believe, mingled with the daughters of men and impregnated them before the flood - I'm not even sure that the passage talking about the sons of God mixing with the daughters of men is talking about angels - humans are called sons of God in scripture - Adam was the son of God, Seth was a son of God. His descendants were called the sons and daughters of God and the sons and daughters of Cain's descendants were the sons and daughters of men.

          I certainly don't see why fallen angels would be called the sons of God. There are extra-Biblical scriptures which speak of these being angels, and certainly it was widely believed among many Jews (though not all) even from long before Jesus day - but they and Josephus, who wrote the history of the Jews in the 2nd century, and other extra-Biblical books and scriptures could all be as wrong about that as all the people who believe it today (IF they are all wrong) - and even today there are many Jewish Rabbis who do not believe it , and who say that the sons of God in that passage are referring to the sons of Seth.

          I've gone slightly off topic (although it is part of the topic): Who are these angels who are bound?

          Peter simply did not identify the angels he was talking about when he spoke about the angels who are bound, so I'm not guessing or assuming anything - BUT there is a totally valid reason to believe that the angels Peter was talking about were bound from ancient times - because everything Peter is talking about there, is ancient, pre-Christian Biblical history, and that is not an assumption - it's a belief based on the context of what Peter was saying - and most Christian scholars agree with what I'm saying about that - except that millions of Christians will insist that the angels being referred to, are the pre-flood ones who (apparently) impregnated human women and brought about the race of "nephilim".

          Originally posted by boangry View Post
          If you don't mind me being a little direct ..
          Are you British? Normally only the British are that polite. Go on ..

          Originally posted by boangry View Post
          Did you have any thoughts on which group of angels the demons in the gospel accounts are?
          I have never and will never do a study on demons, fallen angels, categories of fallen angels, and I will never become fascinated with (non-fallen) angels, and neither should any Christian - and here is why:-

          (a) There's very, very little information given about it in scripture - angels, fallen angels and demons are simply mentioned matter-of-factly as beings that exist - we are not told anything more about them, except that scripture also mentions matter-of-factly that angels (including fallen angels) also have a hierarchy - so there are archangels and lesser angels (or angels with lesser power and authority) and there are also cherubim. The implication in scripture is that different categories of angels have different functions,

          but scripture does not tell us exactly what demons are, whether fallen angels or something else.

          (b) The New Testament tells us not to get involved "vain babblings" regarding things about which we don't understand and have no knowledge.

          We need to understand that we are human and we should not be getting ourselves involved in fascination with the spirit world - it's dangerous (especially because of our lack of knowledge and understanding) and takes our attention off Christ - and so when we do this, we create exactly the kind of soil the deceiver uses against humans in order to plant ideas in our minds that lead away from the Truth of Christ.

          So I'm putting it to you that if you don't believe what I just said here, it's because you still have a rebellious spirit which you need to work on - we do not need to know all the answers to all this stuff,, and if we needed to know, you can be 100% sure we would have been told plainly in scripture - but we are not told.

          Therefore, I'm not going to be attempting to identify demons and fallen angels over and above what scripture states, because I refuse to muse over anything except the things Jesus and His apostles make abundantly clear that they want us to concentrate on.

          In His Revelation to us, our Lord and Savior has made it abundantly clear that this "star fallen from heaven" will be given the key to the abyss at the close of this Age, and these creatures who, according to the apostle Peter, are currently bound there, will be let loose - and out of that abyss will rise not only "locusts" who have Satan as king over them and who will be torturing mankind, but also the most evil world empire the world has ever seen or will see who likewise will have Satan as its king - and this empire will make war with the saints, and overcome them.

          So it's important for Christians to discuss this - but
          my topic in this thread is not intended to go outside of this into vain babblings about demons and fallen angels and their identities and categories - so if you don't mind me being direct - your questioning is dragging the topic down into the pit - you're getting me involved in conversations about demons and fallen angels and what their categories are and what their identities are.

          So let's climb out of this pit and go back to the Revelation of Jesus and how those creatures in that pit relates to what the apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 2:4.

          Originally posted by boangry View Post
          Of course when someone doesn't have the answers its not that big a deal, but its a good reason to not ask people to agree whole heartily with their view when even they admit there are still holes to work out.
          False accusation. Are you being passively aggressive here?

          Firstly, this is a public Christian forum where different points of view are always being discussed and debated - and like me, everyone has the right to counter anyone's statements.

          Secondly, I did not expect that everyone will whole heartedly agree with my point of view or the way I understand these scriptures - I know it won't happen here at Bible Forums (it's impossible).

          Thirdly, I don't have a special screwdriver to adjust the screws in your head (or anyone else's) to program you to agree with everything I say if you disagree with all or some of it.

          Fourthly. I have a right to state my case, and everyone at Bible Forums has the right to argue against my case - because that's what this forum is for, and that's what it's long-term users all use it for.

          When you argue about something or state your case here at BF, then

          1. Quote the Bible (have I not quoted the Bible?)
          2. Say what you believe it's talking about.

          If someone argues against what you say and you don't agree with their argument, continue to state your case.

          When someone has pointed out to me that I was wrong in something, I was quick to admit it if I saw what they said is true. Some here will never admit if they were wrong, and are not searching for the truth - but only their own point-scoring. Each to his own motive for being here.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

            Nope.

            Rev 20:13 refers to the literal sea as we are told that it yielded the dead in it, ie all that perished in the waters from boats to ships that capsized since creation, including the likes of Osama bin Laden. We see that after the Throne Judgment, comes in the NHNE and in it, the sea as we know it is no more! This is what John saw in Rev 21:1. There is no validity to the assumption that the 'sea' in this text denotes the peoples of the world. It is simply unfounded and indefensible.
            OK so we disagree. I'm not going to ask you to give me what you see as "proof" that "it is simply unfounded and indefensible". Maybe when I have the time to debate it. But it's off-topic to this thread (and maybe I'm not interested enough in identifying the sea at this time and my convenient excuse is that it's off-topic to this thread).

            Comment


            • Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post

              Each individual is responsible for the choices he or she makes. Jesus spoke about the heart needing to be cleansed, and the Bible tells us that the heart is desperately wicked and without cure - but the New Testament (New Covenant) in Christ's blood gives us the cure.

              I cannot know that Jesus died for my sins unless I agree with the Holy Spirit every time He convicts me of my own sin. If I refuse the Holy Spirit when I hear His voice, and harden my heart, God is not going to keep prompting me to obey Him and believe in Jesus. The same goes for if I willfully continue in a sin I have been convicted of or ignore what I know is the will of God. An easy and common example is when a unmarried Christian couple choose to live together and be intimate without marriage. They're putting themselves in danger of the Holy Spirit leaving them in their sin and their wandering off from faith in Christ as a result, and eventually into belief in other religions or religious ideas.

              Satan's "job" (and he appointed himself and created the position for himself) is to produce other ideas making the Word of God a lie, as he has done this from the beginning, and he has produced all kinds of "other ways" and "other truth" for me to follow if I choose to harden my heart to the Holy Spirit of God. So it's a bit of both - but the ultimate choice lies with the individual who owns the heart - is He going to believe the Word of He who created him, or harden his heart to it, and believe the word of another which offers easier paths to so-called "nirvana" or to heaven or to paradise or spiritual bliss or "spiritual growth", OR WHATEVER?
              Fair enough, I find people ascribe a certain amount of power to Satan, I just have trouble understanding what that means without practical examples, I wonder if there is anything he can do to make me choose not to follow God, that other people and the world can not provide, combined with my own wicked heart that's deceitful of course, And to be honest, I cant think of any examples except for Adam and Eve of course.


              No (and this is the last time I'm allowing myself to get sucked into this discussion about demons/fallen angels).

              You have asked a few questions about the angels who are bound and now you're asking about demons. So let me start with the angels who Peter stated are bound:

              I know who many other Christians say they are - but Peter did not tell me (or you, or anyone else) which angels he was talking about - so I'm not guessing or assuming, like other Christians, that they're angels who, as many Christians believe, mingled with the daughters of men and impregnated them before the flood - I'm not even sure that the passage talking about the sons of God mixing with the daughters of men is talking about angels - humans are called sons of God in scripture - Adam was the son of God, Seth was a son of God. His descendants were called the sons and daughters of God and the sons and daughters of Cain's descendants were the sons and daughters of men.

              I certainly don't see why fallen angels would be called the sons of God. There are extra-Biblical scriptures which speak of these being angels, and certainly it was widely believed among many Jews (though not all) even from long before Jesus day - but they and Josephus, who wrote the history of the Jews in the 2nd century, and other extra-Biblical books and scriptures could all be as wrong about that as all the people who believe it today (IF they are all wrong) - and even today there are many Jewish Rabbis who do not believe it , and who say that the sons of God in that passage are referring to the sons of Seth.

              I've gone slightly off topic (although it is part of the topic): Who are these angels who are bound?

              Peter simply did not identify the angels he was talking about when he spoke about the angels who are bound, so I'm not guessing or assuming anything - BUT there is a totally valid reason to believe that the angels Peter was talking about were bound from ancient times - because everything Peter is talking about there, is ancient, pre-Christian Biblical history, and that is not an assumption - it's a belief based on the context of what Peter was saying - and most Christian scholars agree with what I'm saying about that - except that millions of Christians will insist that the angels being referred to, are the pre-flood ones who (apparently) impregnated human women and brought about the race of "nephilim".
              Well put!



              Are you British? Normally only the British are that polite. Go on ..
              Haha, nope not British...



              I have never and will never do a study on demons, fallen angels, categories of fallen angels, and I will never become fascinated with (non-fallen) angels, and neither should any Christian - and here is why:-

              (a) There's very, very little information given about it in scripture - angels, fallen angels and demons are simply mentioned matter-of-factly as beings that exist - we are not told anything more about them, except that scripture also mentions matter-of-factly that angels (including fallen angels) also have a hierarchy - so there are archangels and lesser angels (or angels with lesser power and authority) and there are also cherubim. The implication in scripture is that different categories of angels have different functions,

              but scripture does not tell us exactly what demons are, whether fallen angels or something else.

              (b) The New Testament tells us not to get involved "vain babblings" regarding things about which we don't understand and have no knowledge.

              We need to understand that we are human and we should not be getting ourselves involved in fascination with the spirit world - it's dangerous (especially because of our lack of knowledge and understanding) and takes our attention off Christ - and so when we do this, we create exactly the kind of soil the deceiver uses against humans in order to plant ideas in our minds that lead away from the Truth of Christ.

              So I'm putting it to you that if you don't believe what I just said here, it's because you still have a rebellious spirit which you need to work on - we do not need to know all the answers to all this stuff,, and if we needed to know, you can be 100% sure we would have been told plainly in scripture - but we are not told.

              Therefore, I'm not going to be attempting to identify demons and fallen angels over and above what scripture states, because I refuse to muse over anything except the things Jesus and His apostles make abundantly clear that they want us to concentrate on.

              In His Revelation to us, our Lord and Savior has made it abundantly clear that this "star fallen from heaven" will be given the key to the abyss at the close of this Age, and these creatures who, according to the apostle Peter, are currently bound there, will be let loose - and out of that abyss will rise not only "locusts" who have Satan as king over them and who will be torturing mankind, but also the most evil world empire the world has ever seen or will see who likewise will have Satan as its king - and this empire will make war with the saints, and overcome them.

              So it's important for Christians to discuss this - but
              my topic in this thread is not intended to go outside of this into vain babblings about demons and fallen angels and their identities and categories - so if you don't mind me being direct - your questioning is dragging the topic down into the pit - you're getting me involved in conversations about demons and fallen angels and what their categories are and what their identities are.

              So let's climb out of this pit and go back to the Revelation of Jesus and how those creatures in that pit relates to what the apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 2:4.
              To be fair to me, you realise I believe the demons in the Gospel accounts and Satan are those in the pit according to 2Pet 2:4 So the natural questions for me, and they have really been the two Ive focused on and am most interested in, was, if you don't believe the demons from the gospels are those in the pit, then who are these fallen angels in that are now in the pit. So thanks for explaining your reasoning I have a good idea how a lot on this forum view it, and was just genuinely interested in how you see it.



              False accusation. Are you being passively aggressive here?
              I just reread what I wrote and sorry it could come across as a bit of a underhanded dig, but all I was getting at was I am comparing your view to scripture, some say the angels must have fallen pre-creation some say at Genesis 6, which are basically views formed on pure innuendo, and to be able to say your not going to categorically say that you know where the fallen angels come from, although a wise view and there's nothing but respect from me for it. Yet also we have to make all scripture line up with scripture so even though you think its another group of angels to what I think, from me being critical it makes sense that it cant be answered confidently.

              I realise that's not your goal to convince me either, and to be honest those that say pre creation, or Genesis 6, convince me more that they are really grasping at straws as the verse that seems to be foundational for them is 2 Pet 2:4

              Firstly, this is a public Christian forum where different points of view are always being discussed and debated - and like me, everyone has the right to counter anyone's statements.

              Secondly, I did not expect that everyone will whole heartedly agree with my point of view or the way I understand these scriptures - I know it won't happen here at Bible Forums (it's impossible).

              Thirdly, I don't have a special screwdriver to adjust the screws in your head (or anyone else's) to program you to agree with everything I say if you disagree with all or some of it.

              Fourthly. I have a right to state my case, and everyone at Bible Forums has the right to argue against my case - because that's what this forum is for, and that's what it's long-term users all use it for.

              When you argue about something or state your case here at BF, then

              1. Quote the Bible (have I not quoted the Bible?)
              2. Say what you believe it's talking about.
              Absolutely I enjoy reading your posts, and others here too, I read a lot of the threads and would like more interaction on other subjects, but Church, family and life take precedent.

              If someone argues against what you say and you don't agree with their argument, continue to state your case.

              When someone has pointed out to me that I was wrong in something, I was quick to admit it if I saw what they said is true. Some here will never admit if they were wrong, and are not searching for the truth - but only their own point-scoring. Each to his own motive for being here.
              In His Revelation to us, our Lord and Savior has made it abundantly clear that this "star fallen from heaven" will be given the key to the abyss at the close of this Age
              In Rev chapter 1 Jesus said He has the keys of hades and death, is this one of the reasons you point out hades and tartarus are different? In Chapter 9 the fifth angel sounds then a star falls from heaven, yet don't you have Satan falling or being cast to earth, near two thousand years ago, at the time just after the cross. How would you explain these seemingly different timings?

              You also think Satan is Abaddon/Apollyon who is king over those in the pit?, yet you have him residing out of the pit, but the title of him is also King of the bottomless pit seems to me the plain meaning is Satan is in the pit with them as their king.

              Hope you don't mind answering these questions, if your tired of them that's alright, just ignore them, or get to them when you want ;-)


              Comment


              • Originally posted by boangry View Post

                To be fair to me, you realise I believe the demons in the Gospel accounts and Satan are those in the pit according to 2Pet 2:4 So the natural questions for me, and they have really been the two Ive focused on and am most interested in, was, if you don't believe the demons from the gospels are those in the pit, then who are these fallen angels in that are now in the pit. So thanks for explaining your reasoning I have a good idea how a lot on this forum view it, and was just genuinely interested in how you see it.
                Thanks for that. If you had stated your case about where you disagree with me, and stated what you believe, and why, and argued against what I said, instead of only asking me questions about what I said without making it clear you disagree with that I said, I would have better understood your questioning as to what I mean and why I say it.

                That's a mouthful but it's definitely not a scolding mouthful - I'm explaining myself - explaining my last response to your questions.

                Originally posted by boangry View Post
                I just reread what I wrote and sorry it could come across as a bit of a underhanded dig, but all I was getting at was I am comparing your view to scripture,
                No problem I understand now that you did not agree with me on everything I said about 2 Pet.2:4.

                Originally posted by boangry View Post
                Yet also we have to make all scripture line up with scripture so even though you think its another group of angels to what I think, from me being critical it makes sense that it cant be answered confidently.
                You're right, and I couldn't agree more - but I don't see any Biblical statements, (let alone any evidence in reality), that Satan is bound NOW, and is not "walking about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour":

                "Be sensible and vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking someone he may devour;" (1 Peter 5:8).

                So because my starting premise is different to yours, my dominoes fall a different way in my interpretation of 2 Peter 2:4.

                No one who believes that Satan is currently bound, has ever been able to give me scriptures that to my mind, sufficiently support the belief - and there are too may verses and passages that to my mind state the opposite, so I'm still "stuck on this track" (in the opinion of some), but interpreting the New Testament correctly (at least in regard to whether or not Satan is currently bound) in the opinion of others.

                Originally posted by boangry View Post
                I realise that's not your goal to convince me either, and to be honest those that say pre creation, or Genesis 6, convince me more that they are really grasping at straws as the verse that seems to be foundational for them is 2 Pet 2:4
                We are not told "everything" by God in the Bible. We are told what we need to know, and what He wants us to know. Knowing the track-record of Adam on the earth, it's no wonder He doesn't tell us "everything". I know most Christians question and want more answers regarding certain things than we are given, and so human imagination attempts to fill in the gaps - and then we end up with lots of fantasy, which gets taught by popular Pastors and ends up being considered "THE" Christian doctrine regarding whatever subject - but often it's false doctrine (or should we be kinder and say it's erroneous doctrine).

                Originally posted by boangry View Post
                Absolutely I enjoy reading your posts, and others here too, I read a lot of the threads and would like more interaction on other subjects, but Church, family and life take precedent.
                Thank you. I enjoy your insights too, and your challenges, because it makes me consider whether I may be under a false notion regarding things about which you disagree with me.

                Originally posted by boangry View Post
                In Rev chapter 1 Jesus said He has the keys of hades and death, is this one of the reasons you point out hades and tartarus are different?
                Yes - I believe that Tartarus is an abyss (and since there is only one abyss mentioned in the N.T, probably the only abyss).

                What I don't know and cannot know is whether hades has different "sections" and this "Tartarus" is the lowest part of it, or whether hades and Tartarus are different places. Also, what I don't know and cannot know is whether "Abraham's bosom" was a "nice" section in hades, and the chasms exist within hades between different sections, or whether "Abraham's bosom" was a completely different place to hades. I don't know it and cannot know it because God does not tell us everything, and I don't believe there are enough Old Testament and New Testament statements to give us adequate answers. I know many here at BF believe that there are enough statements in the O.T and N.T when put together help us to form an accurate picture about hades and Tartarus, but I don't accept everything every Christian believes, of course.

                Originally posted by boangry View Post
                In Chapter 9 the fifth angel sounds then a star falls from heaven, yet don't you have Satan falling or being cast to earth, near two thousand years ago, at the time just after the cross. How would you explain these seemingly different timings?
                Well lets see if we can ascertain when Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning, because at least in the English text, the word "saw" (past tense) suggests that Jesus said He had seen Satan fall like lightning at some time that was already past when He said it:

                "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us through Your name.

                And He said to them, I saw Satan fall from Heaven like lightning." (Luk 10:17-18)


                When Jesus was going to die on the cross and He said,

                "Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.

                But He said this, signifying what kind of death He was about to die." (John 12:31-33).


                Jesus did not say, Now shall the prince of this world be bound - He said Satan would be cast out.

                Do you believe that the fact that Rev 12 states that the saints overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony has anything to do with Christ's death and resurrection?

                Of course it does.

                So do you believe that Rev 12's statement regarding Satan being cast out of heaven has anything to do with Jesus' statement that He saw (past tense) Satan fall from heaven like lightning?

                Yet Jesus had not died and risen yet. So when was Satan cast out? When did Jesus see him fall from heaven like lightning?

                So (in my opinion) the tense of the word makes no difference to the timing, because when He stated that He saw (past tense) Satan's fall from heaven like lightning, He clearly was speaking about something which was to take place in the (then) near future.

                "And the fifth angel sounded. And I saw a star fall from the heaven to the earth, and it was given the key to the bottomless pit." (Rev 12: 1) .

                I my opinion the vision John saw was given (is given, has been given to the churches) so that we can identify who the star which John saw fall from heaven is referring to

                -but it was not given to tell us that this will only take place at the end of this Age - because like the verse where Jesus said He saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning, the emphasis in Rev 12:1 is on the identity of who is given the key to the bottomless pit, not on the tense of the verb "fall".


                Originally posted by boangry View Post
                You also think Satan is Abaddon/Apollyon who is king over those in the pit?, yet you have him residing out of the pit, but the title of him is also King of the bottomless pit seems to me the plain meaning is Satan is in the pit with them as their king.

                Hope you don't mind answering these questions, if your tired of them that's alright, just ignore them, or get to them when you want ;-)
                I don't mind at all. To answer the last question:

                If I'm the slave of a ruler and I get locked up in the slammer, is the ruler still my master while I'm in the slammer?

                What if the judge hands the ruler who owns me (because I'm his slave) the key to the slammer to let me out? Does it mean the ruler who owns me must have been locked up with me in the slammer?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by boangry View Post
                  It does not make sense to me that angels, who were not created to procreate, why would they even have human type sperm or even why the need for testicles, and have the ability to procreate with our fair women, I do not believe in such thing as succubuses or female demons that seduce and rape men. They are fictional made up creatures

                  The fact certain Christians use these weak minded people

                  But seriously there are no demonic hybrid beings throughout the old testament,
                  Not only are you one of those weakminded Christians you sneer about but you show yourself unable to read the Bible as you call GOD a liar!
                  Genesis 6 quite clearly tells of fallen angels and probably Satan himself coming to Earth to seduce the lovely daughters of the humans.
                  6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
                  2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
                  3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
                  4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

                  GOD had told Adam and Eve to multiply so they complied and lots of pretty girls were born.
                  The sons of GOD are angels and logically as there were plenty of pretty girls about the sons of GOD cannot have been other humans.
                  Humans only produce human size humans not giants.
                  So the giants in the Earth must have come from the angels and girls?
                  The fact your human mind cannot grasp how angels could materialise bodies complete with testicles and faulty sperm merely shows how low your understanding is.
                  We are told Jesus materialised and dematted several times and though we aren't todl anything about his need to empty his bladder it is reasonable to assume his human body was a complete one.
                  He could not have materialised a eunuch body as that would have been cursed at birth!
                  This must be above your level of understanding - not an unusual situation for many of today's so-called Christians.

                  If you had the gift of wisdom and knowledge given by holy spirit you would not sneer at the Bible and boost your own ignorance! 1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

                  STOP CALLING GOD A LIAR and ask Him to give you some maturity and understanding.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by XRose View Post
                    1 Thess 4:16 says THE DEAD will rise first! DEAD DEAD DEAD. Not live in an imaginary hell! DEAD! Those dead will be the 144,000 of the Lost Tribes aka British and Americans Christians killed in these last days.
                    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. How can hell be cast into a fire if it is already hell?
                    I have read and reread your post and for the life of me, I can't figure out what you're bleating about. That the 144,000 are British and American??? How can hell be cast into a fire if it is already hell? What in God's name does this mean?

                    I read in your post yesterday or thereabout to RogerW where you said he belongs to a satanic cult on account of this claim that Satan is presently bound. While I concur that Satan is not yet bound, I wouldn't go far as to say he belongs to a satanic cult for his belief, wrong as it is.

                    And yet, here we are in the same breathe, with you denying that hell is real. Your unremitting denial of this scriptural FACT is as bad as Roger's claim. In this case, I think that your denial is even worse because, the denial of the reality of hell is something one would expect from an atheist, an unbeliever - not a professing Christian! I have patiently used scripture to show you that hell/Hades is a place of the DEAD, while hellfire/lake of fire and brimstone is the place of eternal torment for the wicked. Yet you deny it.

                    Your oxymoron is even more highlighted by your acknowledgement that heaven is real. So how can heaven be real and hell a lie? It's like acknowledging that God is real and Satan is not.

                    I sincerely hope you're not one of those know-it-alls that are quick to dish out advice but are incapable themselves of accepting one? You said that Roger's heart is blind to the truth. Well, given your denial that hell is real, perhaps you should take a look in the mirror?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post
                      OK so we disagree. I'm not going to ask you to give me what you see as "proof" that "it is simply unfounded and indefensible". Maybe when I have the time to debate it. But it's off-topic to this thread (and maybe I'm not interested enough in identifying the sea at this time and my convenient excuse is that it's off-topic to this thread).
                      Very well, let's leave it at that. The reason I challenge falsehood is for the benefit of others, especially new converts.

                      Blessings always.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                        I have read and reread your post and for the life of me, I can't figure out what you're bleating about. That the 144,000 are British and American??? How can hell be cast into a fire if it is already hell? What in God's name does this mean?

                        I read in your post yesterday or thereabout to RogerW where you said he belongs to a satanic cult on account of this claim that Satan is presently bound. While I concur that Satan is not yet bound, I wouldn't go far as to say he belongs to a satanic cult for his belief, wrong as it is.

                        And yet, here we are in the same breathe, with you denying that hell is real. Your unremitting denial of this scriptural FACT is as bad as Roger's claim. In this case, I think that your denial is even worse because, the denial of the reality of hell is something one would expect from an atheist, an unbeliever - not a professing Christian! I have patiently used scripture to show you that hell/Hades is a place of the DEAD, while hellfire/lake of fire and brimstone is the place of eternal torment for the wicked. Yet you deny it.

                        Your oxymoron is even more highlighted by your acknowledgement that heaven is real. So how can heaven be real and hell a lie? It's like acknowledging that God is real and Satan is not.

                        I sincerely hope you're not one of those know-it-alls that are quick to dish out advice but are incapable themselves of accepting one? You said that Roger's heart is blind to the truth. Well, given your denial that hell is real, perhaps you should take a look in the mirror?
                        Sneering that I am bleating shows ignorance doesn't it?
                        I really don't know why you bleat so many errors!
                        I posted that hell cannot be real because it is cast into hell? One cannot cast hell into itself? Surely you can understand that?
                        Roger follows Satan by uttering lies and mistruths! He's posted some more rubbish today and I have corrected it but he will not learn.
                        I have constantly posted that hell cannot be real because it would be a polluted place and GOD intends to cleanse the Earth, world, Universe? We flush the toilet don't we?
                        Heaven is obviously real because it is GOD's domain. Just because heaven is real doesn't mean hell has to be?
                        Satan may get a lake of fire to himself to teach him te error of his ways. But it may be an allegory to show how seriously GOD considers Satan's treachery was and has been.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                          I have read and reread your post and for the life of me, I can't figure out what you're bleating about. That the 144,000 are British and American???
                          They are spouting Jehovah witness nonsense. Anytime someone mentions 1914 as fulfillment of prophecy they are JW.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                          • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                            They are spouting Jehovah witness nonsense. Anytime someone mentions 1914 as fulfillment of prophecy they are JW.
                            That's what I also thought - without even noticing a reference to 1914 made in any post by the X factor.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post

                              Thanks for that. If you had stated your case about where you disagree with me, and stated what you believe, and why, and argued against what I said, instead of only asking me questions about what I said without making it clear you disagree with that I said, I would have better understood your questioning as to what I mean and why I say it.

                              That's a mouthful but it's definitely not a scolding mouthful - I'm explaining myself - explaining my last response to your questions.



                              No problem I understand now that you did not agree with me on everything I said about 2 Pet.2:4.
                              Ahhh, Ok now I understand, Ive gone and looked at my first reply to you and I seem to do it all the time, not be very clear in what I write and expect people can follow. I don't do school so good, Im what americans would call a redneck hick, I left school as soon as I legally could to go and make my fame and fortune, much to the teachers happiness lol


                              Originally posted by boangry View Post

                              I have to admit I maybe take this verse ultra literally so I actually believe that all the angels that have sinned, are now in the abyss. I maybe strangely believe that Satan entered heaven and cast a third of the angels down to earth and then tried to devour the Child after He was born, and these angels are the demons in the gospel accounts and in acts.

                              To make a long story short I believe these demons are now in the abyss, yet will be released out of the pit in the tribulation period, also I believe Satan also sinned and therefore is king over these demons in the abyss.

                              I also think when people read 2 Pet 2:4 they also agree with it but they must flick a switch in their brain and tell themselves something like this, "of course all the angels that sinned are now in the abyss, but obviously its not the 1/3 of the angels Satan cast out of heaven including Satan himself for look at all the bad things happening in the world, so it must be another mysterious unknown group of angels that sinned.



                              Originally posted by m'lo goy View Post
                              You're right, and I couldn't agree more - but I don't see any Biblical statements, (let alone any evidence in reality), that Satan is bound NOW, and is not "walking about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour":

                              "Be sensible and vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking someone he may devour;" (1 Peter 5:8).

                              So because my starting premise is different to yours, my dominoes fall a different way in my interpretation of 2 Peter 2:4.

                              No one who believes that Satan is currently bound, has ever been able to give me scriptures that to my mind, sufficiently support the belief - and there are too may verses and passages that to my mind state the opposite, so I'm still "stuck on this track" (in the opinion of some), but interpreting the New Testament correctly (at least in regard to whether or not Satan is currently bound) in the opinion of others.
                              Ok, I tried giving examples of how I read the verses between the cross and Satans release from the pit, of how I view Satan as a pattern for sin and is used as a metaphor, and for him to be used as a metaphor then he cant be in the picture as I understand rules of grammar.

                              So take one verse out of the epistles, your choice, even 1 Pet 5:8 if you like and show me how it is a literal instruction for us, I mean give me a practical example of how Satan can devour someone, was it H.A Ironside who said good teaching should always have good practical examples with which we should be able to apply to our lives?

                              And whatever verse you decide to use, ill give a good practical example of how we apply the verse metaphorically into our lives, which would also mean that Satan does not actually have to be physically present.

                              I am laying a fair and good challenge down my friend...



                              Yes - I believe that Tartarus is an abyss (and since there is only one abyss mentioned in the N.T, probably the only abyss).

                              What I don't know and cannot know is whether hades has different "sections" and this "Tartarus" is the lowest part of it, or whether hades and Tartarus are different places. Also, what I don't know and cannot know is whether "Abraham's bosom" was a "nice" section in hades, and the chasms exist within hades between different sections, or whether "Abraham's bosom" was a completely different place to hades. I don't know it and cannot know it because God does not tell us everything, and I don't believe there are enough Old Testament and New Testament statements to give us adequate answers. I know many here at BF believe that there are enough statements in the O.T and N.T when put together help us to form an accurate picture about hades and Tartarus, but I don't accept everything every Christian believes, of course.
                              Thanks, makes perfect sense to me

                              Well lets see if we can ascertain when Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning, because at least in the English text, the word "saw" (past tense) suggests that Jesus said He had seen Satan fall like lightning at some time that was already past when He said it:

                              "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us through Your name.

                              And He said to them, I saw Satan fall from Heaven like lightning." (Luk 10:17-18)


                              When Jesus was going to die on the cross and He said,

                              "Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.

                              But He said this, signifying what kind of death He was about to die." (John 12:31-33).


                              Jesus did not say, Now shall the prince of this world be bound - He said Satan would be cast out.

                              Do you believe that the fact that Rev 12 states that the saints overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony has anything to do with Christ's death and resurrection?

                              Of course it does.

                              So do you believe that Rev 12's statement regarding Satan being cast out of heaven has anything to do with Jesus' statement that He saw (past tense) Satan fall from heaven like lightning?

                              Yet Jesus had not died and risen yet. So when was Satan cast out? When did Jesus see him fall from heaven like lightning?
                              Ill try and make my overall view a bit more clearer and succinct so you have a bit more idea where I stand on things.

                              I take statements like I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven as plainly and simply as I can, unless the context is parabolic. I combine this verse with Rev 12:4 which is before the children under 2yrs of age in Bethlehem were murdered when Satan cast 1/3 angels down to earth. Also I combine it with verses from Isaiah, note Satan said in his heart I will ascend above the clouds, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, etc

                              The "I wills" in Isaiah 14 are future tense, so they havnt happened yet but will happen. Again I take the simple plain literal text and apply it as such.

                              Same as in Daniel 8 the horn grew up to the host of heaven and it cast some of the stars down to the ground and trampled them. He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host.

                              Meaning he tried to put himself on the throne in heaven. Again the context is future tense, it hasn't happened yet in Daniels time.

                              So when did Satan do this? I believe Rev 12 again fills in the gaps, A sign appeared in heaven a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, then being with child she cried out in labour and in pain to give birth.

                              The woman is Israel and a young virgin become pregnant via the Holy Spirit, a babe who was Immanuel. Israel did not enter heaven as some claim. A sign can appear on earth say there will be a sign in London a blood red moon is seen from London, does not mean the blood red moon is in London.

                              So the Lord stood up from his throne and laid aside His Majesty, laid aside His Glory, He stepped out of heaven, lowered Himself down to earth, to become a man, born of Adams sinful race. He lowered Himself even beneath the angels Heb 2:7 You have made Him a little lower than angels.

                              Of course all the angels are witnesses of this, and the angels played a role in announcing things in Israel.

                              Then enter the dragon into heaven, this is when he ascends to take the now vacated throne in heaven, to put himself over the other stars in heaven, and a third of the angels submit and follow him in a rebellion.

                              Then war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer;

                              Verse 4 and 7 I believe are the same events, and I realise people have trouble with this for they try to read Revelation 12 strictly chronological, yet they still see verse 11 at the cross, lol

                              Anyway Genesis was the first book I ever read when I picked up a bible, and I had to reread the first few chapters lots to understand that it was not chronological, that it was a narrative that explains things over again from different angles, it gives different information, it recapitulates the same events.

                              Then reading the New testament for the first time, especially the gospels, what a minefield of information, especially in the synoptic gospels some events are described twice and a lot of events described three times, had to flick back and forwards thinking there was a explosion of contradictions, yet they don't just describe the same events exactly the same, they add details that other events don't have, they look at the same thing happening from differing perspectives to give a complete picture yet hide subtle truths so only those who dig will find.

                              The bible actually trains us or teaches us how to dig, so its natural for me anyway when I get to revelation 12, not to expect the event to happen twice differently, but is an explanation of the same event to add details from the other side of the coin.

                              Rev 12:3-4 gives us the timing, Rev 12:6-8 give us more details of the same event. Well to my way of thinking anyway.

                              So when I read I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven and the context is a past event, I take it plainly and simply and literally as a past event, probably because it fits in neatly with how I already view things.

                              When I read the angels who sinned are cast down to Tartarus into chains of darkness, I take it plainly and simply and literally as Satan and one third of the angels have sinned and are now in the pit, and yes, probably because it already fits neatly with how I already view things.

                              When I read Now is the judgment of this world Now the ruler of this world will be cast out, I just take the plain simple and literal meaning that Satan is now cast out, probably because it fits neatly into the jigsaw of how I view things.

                              When I read the beast comes up out of the pit and kills the two witnesses, or that the beast was, is not, and will be. It fits neatly into the my picture that its Satan, the seven headed dragon.

                              Satan was here on earth, currently is not, and yet will be, the context is again past, present and future.

                              In Jude the order of things is changed first the Egyptians are Judged then the angels who did not keep their proper abode and are put into chains, for this reason I don't take stock of the chronological sequence, I see this as another angle of the 2 Pet 2:4 account.

                              When I read how the strong man was bound by the stronger, so He could plunder the goods in his house, I simply see it again as the Lord binding Satan, and rescuing all mankind.(those that receive Him anyways)

                              Etc etc,

                              So (in my opinion) the tense of the word makes no difference to the timing, because when He stated that He saw (past tense) Satan's fall from heaven like lightning, He clearly was speaking about something which was to take place in the (then) near future.

                              "And the fifth angel sounded. And I saw a star fall from the heaven to the earth, and it was given the key to the bottomless pit." (Rev 12: 1) .

                              I my opinion the vision John saw was given (is given, has been given to the churches) so that we can identify who the star which John saw fall from heaven is referring to

                              -but it was not given to tell us that this will only take place at the end of this Age - because like the verse where Jesus said He saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning, the emphasis in Rev 12:1 is on the identity of who is given the key to the bottomless pit, not on the tense of the verb "fall".
                              Ok thanks, Ill just keep in mind how you see it, obviously he has it to open up the pit when he is directed by God to? Ill try and keep an open mind to who the star falling from heaven is and keep it in mind. Im wondering if fall always has to be a negative connotation, I know translators see it that way, but they are human to the odd slip here and there




                              I don't mind at all. To answer the last question:

                              If I'm the slave of a ruler and I get locked up in the slammer, is the ruler still my master while I'm in the slammer?

                              What if the judge hands the ruler who owns me (because I'm his slave) the key to the slammer to let me out? Does it mean the ruler who owns me must have been locked up with me in the slammer?
                              I understand your point and don't fault it, if Satan is loose it fits but conversely the ruler/warden of the prison generally works there as well, temporarily, I see Abandon as the warden who will soon be released and will actually physically rule the world again through the Antichrist.


                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by XRose View Post

                                Not only are you one of those weakminded Christians you sneer about but you show yourself unable to read the Bible as you call GOD a liar!

                                This must be above your level of understanding - not an unusual situation for many of today's so-called Christians.

                                If you had the gift of wisdom and knowledge given by holy spirit you would not sneer at the Bible and boost your own ignorance! 1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

                                STOP CALLING GOD A LIAR and ask Him to give you some maturity and understanding.
                                Dude, if you want me to respond to your post, or if you even want to have a chance for me to understand how you see things, stop with the childish comments.



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