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  • Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

    What precedes this little season?

    11
    And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    42 months?

    How long is the little season. Yes many think it is 42 months which is just more confusion...…when considering the 1000 years literal.

    The only logical solution to the length of the little season is 75 days. 1260 - 1335. In Rev 5.

    So then are there really two little season or are they one in the same thus the 1000 years metaphorical in the pit parallels 42 months on earth!!!!




    ]
    It seems obvious what precedes it. What precedes it were the days that those resting under the altar, lived and were martyred during, which likely goes all the way back to the death of Abel. As to this little season itself, it seems obvious what period of time that is referring to as well. It is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13. So IOW, these already resting under the altar have to wait yet a little season more, before God can avenge them, in order for the 42 month reign of the beast to be fulfilled first, where, during that time the martyrs seen in Rev 20:4, the ones who did not worship the beast, are martyred, and that God can avenge them as well. And all of this is clearly before satan is ever loosed from the pit, therefore the little season in Rev 6, and the 42 month reign in Rev 13, can't possibly be meaning the little season in Rev 20.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by divaD View Post

      It seems obvious what precedes it. What precedes it were the days that those resting under the altar, lived and were martyred during, which likely goes all the way back to the death of Abel. As to this little season itself, it seems obvious what period of time that is referring to as well. It is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13. So IOW, these already resting under the altar have to wait yet a little season more, before God can avenge them, in order for the 42 month reign of the beast to be fulfilled first, where, during that time the martyrs seen in Rev 20:4, the ones who did not worship the beast, are martyred, and that God can avenge them as well. And all of this is clearly before satan is ever loosed from the pit, therefore the little season in Rev 6, and the 42 month reign in Rev 13, can't possibly be meaning the little season in Rev 20.
      But these are just souls that John saw. If fact, King David soul was one of those that John saw (Act 2:25-34).

      Peter preached that David's soul was redeemed when Christ rose. But his body "is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day". You realize that, "David is not ascended into the heavens," right?

      David's prayer was that his "soul" would not be left in hell. The soul is not people's body. His body and all the rest of mankind are all still in the ground, even today in 2020, just as our own loved ones are in the ground today.

      The same goes for the souls of the 144K (Rev 7), the souls in (Rev 14:1-5), and especially the souls beheaded in (Rev 20:4). They are souls and not body's. Their body's will be resurrected in the last day.

      Acts 2
      25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
      26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
      27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
      28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
      29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
      30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
      31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
      32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
      33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
      34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

        But these are just souls that John saw. If fact, King David soul was one of those that John saw (Act 2:25-34).

        Peter in preached that David's soul was redeemed when Christ rose. But his body "is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day". You realize that, "David is not ascended into the heavens," right?

        David's prayer was that his "soul" would not be left in hell. The soul is not people's body. His body and all the rest of mankind are all still in the ground, even today in 2020, just as our own loved ones are in the ground today.

        The same goes for the souls of the 144K (Rev 7), the souls in (Rev 14:1-5), and especially the souls beheaded in (Rev 20:4). They are souls and not body's. Their body's will be resurrected in the last day.

        Acts 2
        25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
        26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
        27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
        28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
        29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
        30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
        31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
        32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
        33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
        34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
        TMarcum, how do you define soul? The soul is the essence of who we are. To be living soul after death is to continue to have the breath of life. Being a living soul is to have rationality, immortality, alive though dead, and defined as heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you. Soul comes from the Greek word psyche and the souls who died in Christ now dwell in heaven as living beings, as the angels, celestial, and this is why Christ tells believers they need not fear those who kill the body, for they cannot kill the soul. So to be absent from our body, just as Paul tells us, is to be present with the Lord through our living soul.

        Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

        All the souls in heaven are alive, or the life we received when we believed would not be eternal life through Christ. Only David's physical body is dead, but since the advent of Christ, David is alive with the Lord in heaven, because the Lord rescued his soul from the grave, just as He promised He would. The purpose for pointing to his sepulchre is to prove that he has not yet bodily resurrected from the dead, because our bodily resurrection will not happen until the last day when Christ comes again.

        It is plain from the Scripture that our physical body cannot live without the presence of our life giving soul, but if we die in faith our soul exists forever through the Holy Spirit in us. For the Spirit will never leave us and will be with us until the redemption of our bodies from the grave.

        Ephesians 4:30 (KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

        Paul, in 1Co 15 shows us how we as living soul go from our physical body, as spiritual body when our body dies. As a spiritual body, he says we are as the angels in heaven, celestial beings, raised a spiritual body because there is both a natural (flesh & bone) body, and there is a spiritual body. That of the spiritual is of the second man; Christ Jesus, our Lord, and we shall bear His image (spiritual) in heaven until our bodily resurrection on the last day. Only then will we once again be complete living soul with both body and soul, only then to never die again.

        The souls we find in heaven are active, showing life through the Spirit. They are crying out to God in Rev 6, and the 144,000 found in Rev 7 & 14 are among the great innumerable multitude praising God for salvation through the Lamb of God, and in chapter 14 they are singing a new song, praising the Lord and following the Lamb of God wherever He goes. And in chapter 20 they both live and reign with the Lord until the thousand years are finished. After the thousand years have ended they will continue as whole or complete with resurrected immortal body indwelt by an eternal spirit making them a complete living soul as we find in the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth.

        Yet with all this activity going on in heaven through living souls, you say that none have ascended to heaven? You have to deny an awful lot of Scripture to hold to that position, but the most important thing you must deny are the words spoken by our Lord, promising us that when we live and believe in Him, even though we physically die, the life we have through Him is eternal. How could Christ give us such promise and hope if in fact when we die we are no longer with Him, but are simply returned to the earth from which our body came? I believe Christ when He promises that He will never leave nor forsake those whom He loves, and that where He is we will be also if we cling to Him in faith by grace through the power of His Spirit in us.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by RogerW View Post

          TMarcum, how do you define soul? The soul is the essence of who we are. To be living soul after death is to continue to have the breath of life. Being a living soul is to have rationality, immortality, alive though dead, and defined as heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you. Soul comes from the Greek word psyche and the souls who died in Christ now dwell in heaven as living beings, as the angels, celestial, and this is why Christ tells believers they need not fear those who kill the body, for they cannot kill the soul. So to be absent from our body, just as Paul tells us, is to be present with the Lord through our living soul.

          Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

          All the souls in heaven are alive, or the life we received when we believed would not be eternal life through Christ. Only David's physical body is dead, but since the advent of Christ, David is alive with the Lord in heaven, because the Lord rescued his soul from the grave, just as He promised He would. The purpose for pointing to his sepulchre is to prove that he has not yet bodily resurrected from the dead, because our bodily resurrection will not happen until the last day when Christ comes again.

          It is plain from the Scripture that our physical body cannot live without the presence of our life giving soul, but if we die in faith our soul exists forever through the Holy Spirit in us. For the Spirit will never leave us and will be with us until the redemption of our bodies from the grave.

          Ephesians 4:30 (KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

          Paul, in 1Co 15 shows us how we as living soul go from our physical body, as spiritual body when our body dies. As a spiritual body, he says we are as the angels in heaven, celestial beings, raised a spiritual body because there is both a natural (flesh & bone) body, and there is a spiritual body. That of the spiritual is of the second man; Christ Jesus, our Lord, and we shall bear His image (spiritual) in heaven until our bodily resurrection on the last day. Only then will we once again be complete living soul with both body and soul, only then to never die again.

          The souls we find in heaven are active, showing life through the Spirit. They are crying out to God in Rev 6, and the 144,000 found in Rev 7 & 14 are among the great innumerable multitude praising God for salvation through the Lamb of God, and in chapter 14 they are singing a new song, praising the Lord and following the Lamb of God wherever He goes. And in chapter 20 they both live and reign with the Lord until the thousand years are finished. After the thousand years have ended they will continue as whole or complete with resurrected immortal body indwelt by an eternal spirit making them a complete living soul as we find in the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth.

          Yet with all this activity going on in heaven through living souls, you say that none have ascended to heaven? You have to deny an awful lot of Scripture to hold to that position, but the most important thing you must deny are the words spoken by our Lord, promising us that when we live and believe in Him, even though we physically die, the life we have through Him is eternal. How could Christ give us such promise and hope if in fact when we die we are no longer with Him, but are simply returned to the earth from which our body came? I believe Christ when He promises that He will never leave nor forsake those whom He loves, and that where He is we will be also if we cling to Him in faith by grace through the power of His Spirit in us.
          I have never said that none have ascended into heaven. I firmly believe that every soul of a righteous man is redeemed by Christ, and is with him in heaven for eternity. I also believe that when we die, our body is put in the grave and will be resurrected on the last day when Christ returns to unite with the soul/spirit.

          I believe that there are only (2) bodily resurrection periods: (1) Christ's body when he ascended and (2) those who belong to him at his 2nd coming.

          So, I don't know what you think I am saying. I said what Peter said, David was redeemed to God when Christ ascended into heaven. But his body is both dead and buried in the grave unto this day.

          Now if you disagree with this, please let me know, because I am at a loss with your response.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

            I have never said that none have ascended into heaven. I firmly believe that every soul of a righteous man is redeemed by Christ, and is with him in heaven for eternity. I also believe that when we die, our body is put in the grave and will be resurrected on the last day when Christ returns to unite with the soul/spirit.

            I believe that there are only (2) bodily resurrection periods: (1) Christ's body when he ascended and (2) those who belong to him at his 2nd coming.

            So, I don't know what you think I am saying. I said what Peter said, David was redeemed to God when Christ ascended into heaven. But his body is both dead and buried in the grave unto this day.

            Now if you disagree with this, please let me know, because I am at a loss with your response.
            My apologies TMarcum, going back and reading again, MORE CAREFULLY what you wrote, I realize now that we are in complete agreement. I am always arguing for the first resurrection being Christ's resurrection that we must partake of in life, because I am amazed by how often I hear folks in these forums deny this truth. There are so many who deny believers possess eternal life, even though Christ was pretty clear about this fact. I am so glad we are in agreement, it's so much nicer to communicate in like mindedness then it is to always be arguing. Again please accept my humble apologies, I will try to read more carefully in the future.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by RogerW View Post

              My apologies TMarcum, going back and reading again, MORE CAREFULLY what you wrote, I realize now that we are in complete agreement. I am always arguing for the first resurrection being Christ's resurrection that we must partake of in life, because I am amazed by how often I hear folks in these forums deny this truth. There are so many who deny believers possess eternal life, even though Christ was pretty clear about this fact. I am so glad we are in agreement, it's so much nicer to communicate in like mindedness then it is to always be arguing. Again please accept my humble apologies, I will try to read more carefully in the future.
              I love you brother

              Comment


              • Originally posted by divaD View Post

                It seems obvious what precedes it. What precedes it were the days that those resting under the altar, lived and were martyred during, which likely goes all the way back to the death of Abel
                .

                Let's have scripture tell us who are these in white robes. Chapter 7 gives us the answer who these are in white robes.

                11
                And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


                14
                And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

                So they do not represent all those from Abel only those from a GT.

                So then how do all these die before the beast shows up for 42 months?


                As to this little season itself, it seems obvious what period of time that is referring to as well. It is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13
                So we have 42 months happening before the little season in Rev 6. So then the little season in Rev 6 cannot be 42 months.


                Comment


                • Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                  .

                  Let's have scripture tell us who are these in white robes. Chapter 7 gives us the answer who these are in white robes.

                  11
                  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


                  14
                  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

                  So they do not represent all those from Abel only those from a GT.

                  So then how do all these die before the beast shows up for 42 months?


                  So we have 42 months happening before the little season in Rev 6. So then the little season in Rev 6 cannot be 42 months.
                  What of those of Rev 6, the souls under the altar, what time period did they come from? They too are given white robes.

                  I believe these are Old Covenant faithful saints, and being 'under the altar' instead of before the throne, indicates to me that they believed the prophets, who foretold of Messiah who would come to rescue them. But how could they go to heaven from the Old since they lived and died before Christ came and before He sent His Spirit to give everlasting life? They had to wait for Messiah to come, and when He did, after His resurrection, before ascending to heaven, Christ went to the place of dead believers to set them free, taking them to heaven as spiritual beings to be with Him in heaven. That's why we next see them clothed in white robes before the throne and before the Lamb in heaven.

                  So, I believe these Old Testament saints do indeed represent all believers, going all the way back to the creation of man. They "were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held". Since they lived and died before the advent of The Messiah to come, their testimony is not as witnesses of Jesus. Though they were righteous, and they certainly believed the prophets whose prophesy was only that a Messiah would come, they cannot witness of Jesus, as those of Rev 20, because they lived and died before He was born.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

                    I love you brother
                    Thank you, the feeling is mutual. God's blessings bro

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                      What of those of Rev 6, the souls under the altar, what time period did they come from? They too are given white robes. I believe these are Old Covenant faithful saints
                      Reasons why they are not OT saints.

                      1. Most importantly. Those in white robes in Rev 6 are the same in white robes Rev 7. In Rev 7 we are told that those in white robes came great tribulation. Hence not all OT saints died from great tribulation nor did they not all die for their faith.

                      2. The first four seals are yet to be opened. So then are we to think come the 5th seal those under the alter represent those back thousands of years?

                      3. Why would OT saints care about revenging their blood on those upon the earth a thousands of years later?
                      4. Since you think the souls under the alter are past OT saints then you must think the fellowservents then are those from the NT back to the cross? If not and you only think they are those which die during 42 months (your little season) then where are those which died from the cross up to this little season?


                      Who are the fellowservents and their brethren.?

                      Since most think the little season is 42 months (in error) then they assign the tribulation saints as the fellowservents (in error). Again those under the alter are these tribulation saints which means they cant be also the fellowservents. In addition, then the little season then cant be 42 months in duration and can only mean the period from 1260 to 1335 which just so happens to be a little season (less than 90 days/season).

                      There is only one group and that would have to be the 144,000. But God has recently shown me that these fellowservents might actually be the two angels which have been showing John these things. Revelation only uses the word two other times which describe these angels. We know they would be two different angels as John bows down twice to an angel which would not be the same angel. This also supports my view that angels Michael and Gabriel are the 2W which now we see are the fellowsevents.

                      rev 6
                      11
                      And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


                      Rev 19
                      10
                      And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

                      Rev 21
                      8
                      And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
                      9
                      Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                        .

                        Let's have scripture tell us who are these in white robes. Chapter 7 gives us the answer who these are in white robes.

                        11
                        And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


                        14
                        And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

                        So they do not represent all those from Abel only those from a GT.

                        So then how do all these die before the beast shows up for 42 months?




                        So we have 42 months happening before the little season in Rev 6. So then the little season in Rev 6 cannot be 42 months.

                        In light of the points you raise here, which are good points BTW, I think I may need to go back to the old drawing board and maybe rethink through some of these things. I may try and get back with you later on this, assuming I don't forget, after I have had time to rethink some of this first.

                        I don't know how some of you are able to post on this board at times? Some of the time this board is not responding for me in a timely manner, and sometimes not at all...it just says at the bottom of my browser....Waiting for bibleforums.org...almost as if I'm on Dialup or something. Other times it seems ok, though.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                          Reasons why they are not OT saints.

                          1. Most importantly. Those in white robes in Rev 6 are the same in white robes Rev 7. In Rev 7 we are told that those in white robes came great tribulation. Hence not all OT saints died from great tribulation nor did they not all die for their faith.
                          Those is white robes would certainly include the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel. They too must be counted with the great innumerable multitude before the throne and the Lamb, even though they were first counted and sealed as servants of Christ before being among the innumerable multitude for ALL NATIONS. Great tribulation is the lot in life for believers whether from the Old or the New. I'll point to just one righteous man from the Old, that is King David. Just read his many Psalms and you soon discover the great tribulation and affliction he suffered in this life.

                          Great tribulation being the lot in life for all believers is not something of rather short duration or coming upon believers only near the end, or we would not be told that entrance into the Kingdom of God comes through much or great tribulation.

                          Acts 14:22 (KJV) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

                          2. The first four seals are yet to be opened. So then are we to think come the 5th seal those under the alter represent those back thousands of years?
                          Where is your proof? You give me no reason to believe you, if you offer nothing from Scripture, for he who alleges must prove.

                          3. Why would OT saints care about revenging their blood on those upon the earth a thousands of years later?
                          The OT saints under the altar could not cry out for God to avenge them until Christ went to the cross and resurrected from the dead. For no man could ascend to heaven before the Lord went there to prepare a place.

                          John 3:13 (KJV) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

                          Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
                          Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

                          So before the Advent of Christ coming to this earth, there would be no reason for the souls under the altar to cry out avenge their blood on them that dwell on the earth. The birth of Christ cast Satan out of heaven (Rev 12), but the blood of the Old Covenant saints could not be avenged and they go to heaven until after Christ died on the cross, avenging their blood, and with His resurrection from the grave. Because before He ascended to heaven, He went first into the lower parts of the earth to set them free.

                          Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
                          Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
                          Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

                          4. Since you think the souls under the alter are past OT saints then you must think the fellowservents then are those from the NT back to the cross? If not and you only think they are those which die during 42 months (your little season) then where are those which died from the cross up to this little season?
                          The OT souls under the altar are told to wait a little season. I would say the little season began with the birth of Christ, after Satan was ejected from heaven and ends when the OT saints ascend with Christ to heaven. They were not just called fellowservants but also their brethren. For it was after Christ's resurrection and before His ascension to heaven that Christ went to rescue them from the grave. Fellowservants and brethren implies prophets, wise men, scribes and we must not forget John the Baptist.

                          Mt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
                          Mt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

                          [LEFT][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica]Since most think the little season is 42 months (in error) then they assign the tribulation saints as the fellowservents (in error). Again those under the alter are these tribulation saints which means they cant be also the fellowservents. In addition, then the little season then cant be 42 months in duration and can only mean the period from 1260 to 1335 which just so happens to be a little season (less than 90 days/season).
                          I don't believe 42 months, 1260 days, time times, and half of times, or 1000 years are to be literally interpreted. They are IMO symbolic numbers that go from the first Advent of Christ to the end of the thousand years. The little season the souls under the altar are told to wait, simply indicates an unknown, but relatively short time. The same with Satan's little season after the thousand years expire, as well as the short time Satan has to persecute the seed of the woman after she gives birth to the man child. I believe the short time is the time Satan has to do his worst after being ejected from heaven but before being cast into the pit.

                          There is only one group and that would have to be the 144,000. But God has recently shown me that these fellowservents might actually be the two angels which have been showing John these things. Revelation only uses the word two other times which describe these angels. We know they would be two different angels as John bows down twice to an angel which would not be the same angel. This also supports my view that angels Michael and Gabriel are the 2W which now we see are the fellowsevents.
                          We are told who the 144,000 are. They are all the tribes of the children of Israel who were sealed as servants of God in their foreheads. This is a depiction I believe of them being sealed with the Holy Spirit, for none could ascend spiritually to heaven until the Spirit gives them life. So they would be those under the altar, once they are sealed with the life giving Spirit, they ascend with Christ to heaven.

                          2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

                          Galatians 6:8 (KJV) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

                          I believe the two witnesses are the Old Covenant Church through the law and prophets (two olive trees) and the New Covenant Church through the Gospel and Holy Spirit (two candlesticks).

                          Revelation 1:20 (KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

                          The good olive tree in Ro 11 are Old Covenant Israelite saints, who had the law and prophets who preached the Gospel of Messiah Who would come to save them.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                            Reasons why they are not OT saints.

                            1. Most importantly. Those in white robes in Rev 6 are the same in white robes Rev 7. In Rev 7 we are told that those in white robes came great tribulation. Hence not all OT saints died from great tribulation nor did they not all die for their faith.

                            2. The first four seals are yet to be opened. So then are we to think come the 5th seal those under the alter represent those back thousands of years?

                            3. Why would OT saints care about revenging their blood on those upon the earth a thousands of years later?
                            4. Since you think the souls under the alter are past OT saints then you must think the fellowservents then are those from the NT back to the cross? If not and you only think they are those which die during 42 months (your little season) then where are those which died from the cross up to this little season?

                            Those in (Rev 6:9-11) died for the word of God and testimony which they held. It does not say they were martyrs for Jesus.

                            Jesus asked a question "how can a profit die outside of Jerusalem?" They killed all the profits. Their were as many old testament saints that died, as were new testament saints.

                            Also, there were 2 groups in Rev 7. Their were the 144K and also, a multitude no man can number. Notice these were of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. A good indicator they were of the gentile race.

                            I simply believe all of these were combined as one people, this is the whole church of Christ redeemed (old testament saints and new testament saints) combined and sealed.

                            Also, notice the great multitude had palms in their hands, as did those who inaugurated Jesus King of Jerusalem, when whey threw down palms, when Jesus came into Jerusalem on a colt and donkey. The disciples who later are converted at the day of Pentecost.

                            Rev 7:9
                            After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;



                            Rev 6
                            9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
                            10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
                            11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


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