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  • Can anyone debunk and prove the following incorrect?

    Most of you know by now that I like to think outside of the box, not that others don't as well. The following is some of my recent thinking in this manner. This specifically involves 2 Peter 3:8.

    2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


    Suppose the text had said the following, meaning from our perspective.

    that one day is with us as 24 hours, and 24 hours as one day.

    In this example even though an 'as' is used, this clearly does not imply a simile, since this statement is literally true. If it's true in this example, the same has be true in 2 Peter 3:8, that it is meaning a day is literally one thousand years. But not a 24 hour day, but a period of time consisting of 1000 years being the day meant.

    Let's examine some of this a little closer. Let's start with what I proposed in the beginning of this post, that if this was from our perspective instead.


    that one day(24 hours) is with us as 24 hours(one day), and 24 hours(one day) as one day(24 hours).

    Clearly, one day and 24 hours are referring to the same thing. Would anyone care to dispute that?

    Now let's look at it from God's perspective in 2 Peter 3:8.

    that one day(a thousand years) is with the Lord as a thousand years(one day), and a thousand years(one day) as one day(a thousand years).

    Clearly, one day and a thousand years are referring to the same thing, the same way, assuming one never disputed the former, where I indicated that that one day and 24 hours, these are referring to the same thing.


    It seems to me, in order to debunk the latter and prove it wrong, one must first successfully debunk the former and prove it wrong, since the former is what is actually proving the latter to be correct. In the former example one day can't mean anything but 24 hours. It for sure can't mean a thousand years since that would be contradicting the 24 hours that it means.

    In the latter example one day can't mean anything but a thousand years. It for sure can't mean 24 hours since that would be contradicting the thousand years that it means.


    Some mistakenly, including Premils, apparently think a 24 hour day is what is meant by one day in 2 Peter 3:8, but didn't I just prove above that that is not the case, but that it is meaning a thousand years and not 24 hours instead? For one day to mean 24 hours in 2 peter 3:8 makes nonsense of the text, the same way it would be making nonsense of the text in the example from our perspective if one day were to mean anything other than 24 hours.

    If one still disagrees, regardless....then have it and debunk what I submitted, thus prove it wrong. I'm not interested in someone trying to prove it wrong with Scriptures, since Scriptures involve interpreting, and that not everyone might interpret the same Scriptures in the same manner. The only way to debunk and prove what I submitted is wrong, one first has to debunk and prove that the former example from our perspective, that it is incorrect.


    If I am correct here, this undeniably proves that this thousand years in question are meaning a literal thousand years, which then means they are meaning a literal thousand years in Revelation 20. Which then means Amil can't possibly be the correct position since Amil can't even work if a literal thousand years are meant in Revelation 20. Don't let that distract anyone though, thus lose sight of what this thread is for. This thread is for debunking, thus proving what I propose is wrong, assuming you still disagree, which I'm certain Amils will, and maybe some Premils as well.

  • #2
    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    Most of you know by now that I like to think outside of the box, not that others don't as well. The following is some of my recent thinking in this manner. This specifically involves 2 Peter 3:8.

    2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


    Suppose the text had said the following, meaning from our perspective.

    that one day is with us as 24 hours, and 24 hours as one day.

    In this example even though an 'as' is used, this clearly does not imply a simile, since this statement is literally true. If it's true in this example, the same has be true in 2 Peter 3:8, that it is meaning a day is literally one thousand years. But not a 24 hour day, but a period of time consisting of 1000 years being the day meant.

    Let's examine some of this a little closer. Let's start with what I proposed in the beginning of this post, that if this was from our perspective instead.


    that one day(24 hours) is with us as 24 hours(one day), and 24 hours(one day) as one day(24 hours).

    Clearly, one day and 24 hours are referring to the same thing. Would anyone care to dispute that?

    Now let's look at it from God's perspective in 2 Peter 3:8.

    that one day(a thousand years) is with the Lord as a thousand years(one day), and a thousand years(one day) as one day(a thousand years).

    Clearly, one day and a thousand years are referring to the same thing, the same way, assuming one never disputed the former, where I indicated that that one day and 24 hours, these are referring to the same thing.


    It seems to me, in order to debunk the latter and prove it wrong, one must first successfully debunk the former and prove it wrong, since the former is what is actually proving the latter to be correct. In the former example one day can't mean anything but 24 hours. It for sure can't mean a thousand years since that would be contradicting the 24 hours that it means.

    In the latter example one day can't mean anything but a thousand years. It for sure can't mean 24 hours since that would be contradicting the thousand years that it means.


    Some mistakenly, including Premils, apparently think a 24 hour day is what is meant by one day in 2 Peter 3:8, but didn't I just prove above that that is not the case, but that it is meaning a thousand years and not 24 hours instead? For one day to mean 24 hours in 2 peter 3:8 makes nonsense of the text, the same way it would be making nonsense of the text in the example from our perspective if one day were to mean anything other than 24 hours.

    If one still disagrees, regardless....then have it and debunk what I submitted, thus prove it wrong. I'm not interested in someone trying to prove it wrong with Scriptures, since Scriptures involve interpreting, and that not everyone might interpret the same Scriptures in the same manner. The only way to debunk and prove what I submitted is wrong, one first has to debunk and prove that the former example from our perspective, that it is incorrect.


    If I am correct here, this undeniably proves that this thousand years in question are meaning a literal thousand years, which then means they are meaning a literal thousand years in Revelation 20. Which then means Amil can't possibly be the correct position since Amil can't even work if a literal thousand years are meant in Revelation 20. Don't let that distract anyone though, thus lose sight of what this thread is for. This thread is for debunking, thus proving what I propose is wrong, assuming you still disagree, which I'm certain Amils will, and maybe some Premils as well.

    I try to post a response but lost it.
    Not sure if i ever want to try again with the forum the way it is.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

    Comment


    • #3

      The text is from the Lords perspective.


      8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
      And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

      Comment


      • #4
        So far so good....,


        2pet 3:8 is in response to the scoffers saying "where is the promise of his coming" , as everything has gone on from the beginning.



        3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”




        The Lord is not slow about his promise in coming as some count slowness, because a day is like a thousand years to him.


        The last days is when the scoffers make the claim, and its been 2 thousand years already.

        That debunks the claim of a literal one thousand years of the Lords patience.




        8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
        And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by divaD View Post
          Most of you know by now that I like to think outside of the box, not that others don't as well. The following is some of my recent thinking in this manner. This specifically involves 2 Peter 3:8.

          2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


          Suppose the text had said the following, meaning from our perspective.

          that one day is with us as 24 hours, and 24 hours as one day.

          In this example even though an 'as' is used, this clearly does not imply a simile, since this statement is literally true. If it's true in this example, the same has be true in 2 Peter 3:8, that it is meaning a day is literally one thousand years. But not a 24 hour day, but a period of time consisting of 1000 years being the day meant.

          Let's examine some of this a little closer. Let's start with what I proposed in the beginning of this post, that if this was from our perspective instead.


          that one day(24 hours) is with us as 24 hours(one day), and 24 hours(one day) as one day(24 hours).

          Clearly, one day and 24 hours are referring to the same thing. Would anyone care to dispute that?

          Now let's look at it from God's perspective in 2 Peter 3:8.

          that one day(a thousand years) is with the Lord as a thousand years(one day), and a thousand years(one day) as one day(a thousand years).

          Clearly, one day and a thousand years are referring to the same thing, the same way, assuming one never disputed the former, where I indicated that that one day and 24 hours, these are referring to the same thing.


          It seems to me, in order to debunk the latter and prove it wrong, one must first successfully debunk the former and prove it wrong, since the former is what is actually proving the latter to be correct. In the former example one day can't mean anything but 24 hours. It for sure can't mean a thousand years since that would be contradicting the 24 hours that it means.

          In the latter example one day can't mean anything but a thousand years. It for sure can't mean 24 hours since that would be contradicting the thousand years that it means.


          Some mistakenly, including Premils, apparently think a 24 hour day is what is meant by one day in 2 Peter 3:8, but didn't I just prove above that that is not the case, but that it is meaning a thousand years and not 24 hours instead? For one day to mean 24 hours in 2 peter 3:8 makes nonsense of the text, the same way it would be making nonsense of the text in the example from our perspective if one day were to mean anything other than 24 hours.

          If one still disagrees, regardless....then have it and debunk what I submitted, thus prove it wrong. I'm not interested in someone trying to prove it wrong with Scriptures, since Scriptures involve interpreting, and that not everyone might interpret the same Scriptures in the same manner. The only way to debunk and prove what I submitted is wrong, one first has to debunk and prove that the former example from our perspective, that it is incorrect.


          If I am correct here, this undeniably proves that this thousand years in question are meaning a literal thousand years, which then means they are meaning a literal thousand years in Revelation 20. Which then means Amil can't possibly be the correct position since Amil can't even work if a literal thousand years are meant in Revelation 20. Don't let that distract anyone though, thus lose sight of what this thread is for. This thread is for debunking, thus proving what I propose is wrong, assuming you still disagree, which I'm certain Amils will, and maybe some Premils as well.
          Hi David D can you please state in a nutshell exactly what you want someone to try and debunk?

          I’m a bit confused in what you are asking

          Comment


          • #6
            10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
            11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


            Clearly the day of judgment and the destruction of the ungodly regarding the scoffers claim of "the promise of his coming"..... ends with the Lords coming to eternally separate all who reject him on the day he comes to glorify us into the place where only righteousness dwells on a NHNE according to Paul.


            7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
            8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.


            2Thess 1

            6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed
            And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              Most of you know by now that I like to think outside of the box, not that others don't as well. The following is some of my recent thinking in this manner. This specifically involves 2 Peter 3:8.

              2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


              Suppose the text had said the following, meaning from our perspective.

              that one day is with us as 24 hours, and 24 hours as one day.

              In this example even though an 'as' is used, this clearly does not imply a simile, since this statement is literally true. If it's true in this example, the same has be true in 2 Peter 3:8, that it is meaning a day is literally one thousand years. But not a 24 hour day, but a period of time consisting of 1000 years being the day meant.

              Let's examine some of this a little closer. Let's start with what I proposed in the beginning of this post, that if this was from our perspective instead.


              that one day(24 hours) is with us as 24 hours(one day), and 24 hours(one day) as one day(24 hours).

              Clearly, one day and 24 hours are referring to the same thing. Would anyone care to dispute that?

              Now let's look at it from God's perspective in 2 Peter 3:8.

              that one day(a thousand years) is with the Lord as a thousand years(one day), and a thousand years(one day) as one day(a thousand years).

              Clearly, one day and a thousand years are referring to the same thing, the same way, assuming one never disputed the former, where I indicated that that one day and 24 hours, these are referring to the same thing.


              It seems to me, in order to debunk the latter and prove it wrong, one must first successfully debunk the former and prove it wrong, since the former is what is actually proving the latter to be correct. In the former example one day can't mean anything but 24 hours. It for sure can't mean a thousand years since that would be contradicting the 24 hours that it means.

              In the latter example one day can't mean anything but a thousand years. It for sure can't mean 24 hours since that would be contradicting the thousand years that it means.


              Some mistakenly, including Premils, apparently think a 24 hour day is what is meant by one day in 2 Peter 3:8, but didn't I just prove above that that is not the case, but that it is meaning a thousand years and not 24 hours instead? For one day to mean 24 hours in 2 peter 3:8 makes nonsense of the text, the same way it would be making nonsense of the text in the example from our perspective if one day were to mean anything other than 24 hours.

              If one still disagrees, regardless....then have it and debunk what I submitted, thus prove it wrong. I'm not interested in someone trying to prove it wrong with Scriptures, since Scriptures involve interpreting, and that not everyone might interpret the same Scriptures in the same manner. The only way to debunk and prove what I submitted is wrong, one first has to debunk and prove that the former example from our perspective, that it is incorrect.


              If I am correct here, this undeniably proves that this thousand years in question are meaning a literal thousand years, which then means they are meaning a literal thousand years in Revelation 20. Which then means Amil can't possibly be the correct position since Amil can't even work if a literal thousand years are meant in Revelation 20. Don't let that distract anyone though, thus lose sight of what this thread is for. This thread is for debunking, thus proving what I propose is wrong, assuming you still disagree, which I'm certain Amils will, and maybe some Premils as well.
              Time here on earth is measured by the earth rotating which takes 24 hours. 365 days to rotate around the sun.

              The key is to understand the verse says "with the Lord" is the Lord on earth? No.

              Thus there is no measurement of time where the Lord is...….

              Thus the verse is saying with the Lord, where the Lord is...….time is not a factor, it is not measured.

              Now the text used 1000, understand the text could have used any number greater than one day to get the point across. Could have used 100, or 1 million.

              So the 1000 is used as a metaphor.

              The 1000 used in Rev 20 is consistent and is a metaphor as well.

              One day in the pit is as 1000 years. Why? Time is not measured in Hell either absent of an earth rotating.

              I have told you these thing a "1000" times before....

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by marty fox View Post

                Hi David D can you please state in a nutshell exactly what you want someone to try and debunk?

                I’m a bit confused in what you are asking
                Marty, my argument is that 'one day' in 2 Peter 3:8 is meaning a literal 1000 years, the same way 'one day' from our perspective would be meaning a literal 24 hours.

                2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


                Notice in the text that there is this...one day...and that there is also this....a thousand years

                From our perspective first....that one day is with us as 24 hours...Notice in the text that there is this...one day...and that there is also this....24 hours


                The logic is as follows, using our perspective to determine what is actually meant in Peter 3:8 via God's perspective in that verse.




                1) From our perspective...one day is the exact same thing as 24 hours, and that 24 hours is the exact same thing as one day. IOW, one day is period of time consisting of a literal 24 hours, thus a literal 24 hours make up one day, thus one day and and a literal 24 hours are referring to the exact same thing. No one can prove that wrong. That would be like someone trying to prove 2 + 2 = 4 wrong. Totally impossible.

                2) Obviously, the exact same logic has to apply in 2 Peter 3:8 to God's perspective. Using the very same logic I just used in the previous paragraph, one day is the exact same thing as a thousand years, and that a thousand years is the exact same thing as one day. IOW, one day is a period of time consisting of a literal thousand years, thus a literal thousand years make up one day, thus one day and a literal thousand years are referring to the exact same thing.

                In order to even prove the latter false, one must first prove the former false. What I'm wanting to do via this thread, I want to see if my arguments can be debunked. I don't think they can, but if they can, and that someone undeniably proves it, I will then be willing to admit that it looks like I was wrong after all.


                These two paragraphs above, 1) and 2), if one agrees with my logic in 1), thus can't prove it wrong, why would that same person disagree with my logic per 2) when it's the exact same logic I applied in 1)? How can one prove my logic wrong per 2) if they can't even prove my logic per 1) wrong?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Its all quite simple really; The Lord is a Spiritual being, living in a spiritual place, unconstrained by physical things.
                  However, He has told us thru His prophets that to Him, the passing of 1000 years on earth is like one day in heaven. Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8

                  The whole drama of God's plan for mankind, all of His Creation, is to Him just a weeks work., but 7000 years to us.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                    Time here on earth is measured by the earth rotating which takes 24 hours. 365 days to rotate around the sun.

                    The key is to understand the verse says "with the Lord" is the Lord on earth? No.

                    Thus there is no measurement of time where the Lord is...….

                    Thus the verse is saying with the Lord, where the Lord is...….time is not a factor, it is not measured.

                    Now the text used 1000, understand the text could have used any number greater than one day to get the point across. Could have used 100, or 1 million.

                    So the 1000 is used as a metaphor.

                    The 1000 used in Rev 20 is consistent and is a metaphor as well.

                    One day in the pit is as 1000 years. Why? Time is not measured in Hell either absent of an earth rotating.

                    I have told you these thing a "1000" times before....
                    Nothing you have submitted thus far has debunked anything I am arguing in this thread. Just because a thousand is sometimes not meaning in the literal sense, as you showed in the end of your post, what exactly do you think that proves? That a thousand can never literally mean a thousand at any time whatsoever? If you started counting from 1 and quit counting when you got to exactly a thousand, a literal thousand is not what you just counted to?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                      Its all quite simple really; The Lord is a Spiritual being, living in a spiritual place, unconstrained by physical things.
                      However, He has told us thru His prophets that to Him, the passing of 1000 years on earth is like one day in heaven. Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8

                      The whole drama of God's plan for mankind, all of His Creation, is to Him just a weeks work., but 7000 years to us.

                      I wouldn't think there is such a thing as one day in heaven, though. Heaven is timeless. Heaven already existed before God ever created time, such as hours, days, months, years. A thousand years is only relevant to something earthly, and seems mostly connected with one of the things you brought up, this 7000 years, for one. As to the 6 creation days in Genesis, as an example, one can't apply 2 Peter 3:8 to it since that would make each creation day 1000 years each.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by divaD View Post

                        Nothing you have submitted thus far has debunked anything I am arguing in this thread. Just because a thousand is sometimes not meaning in the literal sense, as you showed in the end of your post, what exactly do you think that proves? That a thousand can never literally mean a thousand at any time whatsoever? If you started counting from 1 and quit counting when you got to exactly a thousand, a literal thousand is not what you just counted to?
                        If peter wrote a day is a 100 years and vice versa. Rev 20 would have said Satan was bound a "100" years.

                        So the use a "1000" is not relevant. Like I said it could have been any number of lengths greater than one day.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by divaD View Post

                          Marty, my argument is that 'one day' in 2 Peter 3:8 is meaning a literal 1000 years, the same way 'one day' from our perspective would be meaning a literal 24 hours.
                          That is ridiculous Bro'. How do you then equate his slowness not being the same way as humans equate slowness???

                          Why not use the word for one thousand which is 5505, which is not the case is it????
                          And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                            10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
                            11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


                            Clearly the day of judgment and the destruction of the ungodly regarding the scoffers claim of "the promise of his coming"..... ends with the Lords coming to eternally separate all who reject him on the day he comes to glorify us into the place where only righteousness dwells on a NHNE according to Paul.


                            7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
                            8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.


                            2Thess 1

                            6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed
                            While these are some good arguments, the issue is, this thousand years in question have to be meaning a literal thousand years, as I have shown in the OP, and then in a post addressed to Marty. Assuming you are correct here, how do you propose that Amil can still work when a literal thousand years are what is meant in Rev 20 according to 2 Peter 3:8?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have addressed this in all my posts above. Post 4 and 13.
                              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                              Comment

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