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  • true imminency

    It is falsely taught that we must expect Christ could come "today"--otherwise, we are putting off our readiness and procrastinating. So please comment on what I believe to be the real means of readiness for Christ's Kingdom:

    The secret nature of Christ's coming is due to the need to prepare for the Kingdom not by having the *date,* but rather, by *living for the Kingdom every day.*

    Not having the date of Christ's Coming does *not* mean he can return on *just any day!* It just means we are to walk in the light every day, doing good deeds, and obeying the voice of the Spirit. We are *always* to live in righteousness. This is what keeps us prepared for the Coming of Christ. It prepares us regardless of your theology, Pretrib, Midtrib, or Postrib. If we walk in the light today, we *are* ready!

    I just think that the false expectation Christ could return "today" is distracting us from our mission, which involves planning. If we knew a bomb could fall on a house we're building today, there would be less enthusiasm about building it. We need to focus on building righteous lives, rather than teaching an expectation that we could all be snuffed out at any time!

    There are missions we are involved in that take time. We shouldn't think that God might just destroy our work in mid-stream! But if we live for Christ every day, we won't have to worry about when he will come. We will always be ready.

    That's the importance of knowing he is coming soon, because it is vital to be prepared in advance of looming judgment from God. Regardless of whether things will wrap up in this decade, or in several decades following, we must live in the light today, so that our ministry will help people today!

  • #2
    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    It is falsely taught that we must expect Christ could come "today"--otherwise, we are putting off our readiness and procrastinating. So please comment on what I believe to be the real means of readiness for Christ's Kingdom:

    The secret nature of Christ's coming is due to the need to prepare for the Kingdom not by having the *date,* but rather, by *living for the Kingdom every day.*

    Not having the date of Christ's Coming does *not* mean he can return on *just any day!* It just means we are to walk in the light every day, doing good deeds, and obeying the voice of the Spirit. We are *always* to live in righteousness. This is what keeps us prepared for the Coming of Christ. It prepares us regardless of your theology, Pretrib, Midtrib, or Postrib. If we walk in the light today, we *are* ready!

    I just think that the false expectation Christ could return "today" is distracting us from our mission, which involves planning. If we knew a bomb could fall on a house we're building today, there would be less enthusiasm about building it. We need to focus on building righteous lives, rather than teaching an expectation that we could all be snuffed out at any time!

    There are missions we are involved in that take time. We shouldn't think that God might just destroy our work in mid-stream! But if we live for Christ every day, we won't have to worry about when he will come. We will always be ready.

    That's the importance of knowing he is coming soon, because it is vital to be prepared in advance of looming judgment from God. Regardless of whether things will wrap up in this decade, or in several decades following, we must live in the light today, so that our ministry will help people today!
    Randy, very nicely stated. I agree that we are called to live for the Kingdom every day, and that we aught not be consumed with trying to determine when Christ will return. I believe the reason we must live daily for the Kingdom is so when He does come it will not be for us as a thief in the night as it will be for those who are not ready and waiting. The thing we need to remember about His coming again is how Christ compares it to the days of Noah, when they were living life as though everything was fine and appeared to believe the end would never come. There was no warning in the days of Noah, the flood waters simply came and destroyed everything living that was not on the Ark or living under the waters.

    It's far from a distraction to expect Christ to come in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, because that is what the Scripture says will happen when the last trumpet sounds. Our mission is to warn others of their need for the Savior because He is coming again. And if we are not ready when He comes, there will not be another opportunity to enter into the Kingdom of God forever.

    So, I agree we don't need to know the date of His coming, but we should certainly live for the Kingdom every day with the expectation that this could indeed be the day.



    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RogerW View Post
      There was no warning in the days of Noah, the flood waters simply came and destroyed everything living that was not on the Ark or living under the waters.

      It's far from a distraction to expect Christ to come in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, because that is what the Scripture says will happen when the last trumpet sounds. Our mission is to warn others of their need for the Savior because He is coming again. And if we are not ready when He comes, there will not be another opportunity to enter into the Kingdom of God forever.

      So, I agree we don't need to know the date of His coming, but we should certainly live for the Kingdom every day with the expectation that this could indeed be the day.
      Here you are very wrong. There was plenty of warning the flood was coming. However did people pay heed? No they didn't
      People SAW Noah building the ark - but did they accept why he was building it?
      People would have SEEN the animals coming and entering the ark, and Noah getting the food for the animals - but did they accept that the flood was coming?
      People would have HEARD Noah preaching about the coming flood - 2 Peter 2:5 tells us that Noah was a preacher of righteousness - but did the people want to hear the message?
      People would have seen Noah enter the ark with the 7 pairs of animals, along with his family over a period of one week - the final week to respond to the SIGNS given.

      So just like in the time of Noah there will be ample clear evidence of what is coming, and when the final week comes, we will know the time of His coming JUST AS God told Noah one week in advance. However will we, and will anyone else be open to listening and responding to what God says?

      We do need to warn others that Christ is coming, but we should NOT say He will come at any moment, as scripture does not support that view, instead we should remind them of the parable of the fool, who was rich and made his plans to build bigger barns, but who lost his life that very night. The individual needs to be right with God because the individual might die at any moment. This is a different event to that of the entire world meeting its Maker.

      Randy is correct in what he has written, the Doctrine of Imminency of Christ is an unhelpful doctrine, and distracts from the truth of the Gospel and its importance for everyone to acknowledge that Today is the Day and not to harden ones heart.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
        Here you are very wrong. There was plenty of warning the flood was coming. However did people pay heed? No they didn't
        People SAW Noah building the ark - but did they accept why he was building it?
        People would have SEEN the animals coming and entering the ark, and Noah getting the food for the animals - but did they accept that the flood was coming?
        People would have HEARD Noah preaching about the coming flood - 2 Peter 2:5 tells us that Noah was a preacher of righteousness - but did the people want to hear the message?
        People would have seen Noah enter the ark with the 7 pairs of animals, along with his family over a period of one week - the final week to respond to the SIGNS given.

        So just like in the time of Noah there will be ample clear evidence of what is coming, and when the final week comes, we will know the time of His coming JUST AS God told Noah one week in advance. However will we, and will anyone else be open to listening and responding to what God says?

        We do need to warn others that Christ is coming, but we should NOT say He will come at any moment, as scripture does not support that view, instead we should remind them of the parable of the fool, who was rich and made his plans to build bigger barns, but who lost his life that very night. The individual needs to be right with God because the individual might die at any moment. This is a different event to that of the entire world meeting its Maker.

        Randy is correct in what he has written, the Doctrine of Imminency of Christ is an unhelpful doctrine, and distracts from the truth of the Gospel and its importance for everyone to acknowledge that Today is the Day and not to harden ones heart.
        Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
        Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
        Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

        Lu 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
        Lu 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
        Lu 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
        Lu 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
        Lu 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post

          People SAW Noah building the ark
          What scripture says that?

          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            It is falsely taught that we must expect Christ could come "today"--otherwise, we are putting off our readiness and procrastinating. So please comment on what I believe to be the real means of readiness for Christ's Kingdom:

            The secret nature of Christ's coming is due to the need to prepare for the Kingdom not by having the *date,* but rather, by *living for the Kingdom every day.*

            Not having the date of Christ's Coming does *not* mean he can return on *just any day!* It just means we are to walk in the light every day, doing good deeds, and obeying the voice of the Spirit. We are *always* to live in righteousness. This is what keeps us prepared for the Coming of Christ. It prepares us regardless of your theology, Pretrib, Midtrib, or Postrib. If we walk in the light today, we *are* ready!

            I just think that the false expectation Christ could return "today" is distracting us from our mission, which involves planning. If we knew a bomb could fall on a house we're building today, there would be less enthusiasm about building it. We need to focus on building righteous lives, rather than teaching an expectation that we could all be snuffed out at any time!

            There are missions we are involved in that take time. We shouldn't think that God might just destroy our work in mid-stream! But if we live for Christ every day, we won't have to worry about when he will come. We will always be ready.

            That's the importance of knowing he is coming soon, because it is vital to be prepared in advance of looming judgment from God. Regardless of whether things will wrap up in this decade, or in several decades following, we must live in the light today, so that our ministry will help people today!
            I agree that Jesus cannot show up on earth or in the air at any time as some claim. There is a prophetic fulfillment to be accomplished so that all prophetic utterances are fulfilled chronologically. Christ made predetermined prophecy that was also revealed to Daniel and many other Old Testament prophets. There is much confusion about the sudden coming of Christ which presupposes its own interpretation and damages the true pronunciation of the coming of Christ. Many forget that the coming of Christ is not his own decision made to return any time as He wants to, but that He responds to the particular time of prophecy that must be fulfilled.
            To God be the Glory

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RogerW View Post
              Randy, very nicely stated. I agree that we are called to live for the Kingdom every day, and that we aught not be consumed with trying to determine when Christ will return. I believe the reason we must live daily for the Kingdom is so when He does come it will not be for us as a thief in the night as it will be for those who are not ready and waiting. The thing we need to remember about His coming again is how Christ compares it to the days of Noah, when they were living life as though everything was fine and appeared to believe the end would never come. There was no warning in the days of Noah, the flood waters simply came and destroyed everything living that was not on the Ark or living under the waters.

              It's far from a distraction to expect Christ to come in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, because that is what the Scripture says will happen when the last trumpet sounds. Our mission is to warn others of their need for the Savior because He is coming again. And if we are not ready when He comes, there will not be another opportunity to enter into the Kingdom of God forever.

              So, I agree we don't need to know the date of His coming, but we should certainly live for the Kingdom every day with the expectation that this could indeed be the day.


              I appreciate your sentiments, but I want to be clear. I do not believe in Imminency in the sense that "today could be the day." In my view, Paul is very clear. In 2 Thes 2, Paul says that the day of Christ's Coming must be preceded by the appearance of the Man of Sin--the Antichrist. Christ's Coming will take place exclusively in the context of the *destruction of Antichrist.*

              That being said, "this could be the day" can apply in a completely different sense--in the sense that we could die today, whether by traffic accident, by heart attack, or by some freak course of nature. We are not to expect Christ's Kingdom to come in that way, however--haphazardly, and without a recognizable buildup to that Coming.

              The scene depicted in the book of Revelation is pretty clear, and Christians should be as clear seeing the Antichrist as any antichrist in history could be recognized. Mohammad was recognized for who he was, attacking and destroying Christian land and people. The Catholic Church could be seen for the evil it did, at times, trying to destroy Protestants. And Hitler was easily recognized for the monster he was. Communism is a very present antichrist today, and any Christian can recognize the apostate state of Russia, as well as the clear paganism in China.

              Antichrist won't be any more difficult for Christians to recognize when he comes. This doesn't, however, make the world ready, since they don't accept Christian truth. Rather, they see Christians as the problem. Or, they simply see themselves as the answer to any problems.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by randyk View Post

                I appreciate your sentiments, but I want to be clear. I do not believe in Imminency in the sense that "today could be the day." In my view, Paul is very clear. In 2 Thes 2, Paul says that the day of Christ's Coming must be preceded by the appearance of the Man of Sin--the Antichrist. Christ's Coming will take place exclusively in the context of the *destruction of Antichrist.*

                That being said, "this could be the day" can apply in a completely different sense--in the sense that we could die today, whether by traffic accident, by heart attack, or by some freak course of nature. We are not to expect Christ's Kingdom to come in that way, however--haphazardly, and without a recognizable buildup to that Coming.

                The scene depicted in the book of Revelation is pretty clear, and Christians should be as clear seeing the Antichrist as any antichrist in history could be recognized. Mohammad was recognized for who he was, attacking and destroying Christian land and people. The Catholic Church could be seen for the evil it did, at times, trying to destroy Protestants. And Hitler was easily recognized for the monster he was. Communism is a very present antichrist today, and any Christian can recognize the apostate state of Russia, as well as the clear paganism in China.

                Antichrist won't be any more difficult for Christians to recognize when he comes. This doesn't, however, make the world ready, since they don't accept Christian truth. Rather, they see Christians as the problem. Or, they simply see themselves as the answer to any problems.
                I don't believe we are to look for A specific man, because we know there are MANY antichrists, and have been from the beginning. The man of sin, is not one but any who is not with Christ is against Christ (antichrists). When you look at the way antichrists are described by John, we find that Paul's description fits John's antichrists very well.

                1 John 2:18 (KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
                1 John 2:22 (KJV) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
                1 John 4:3 (KJV) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
                2 John 7 (KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

                Although, according to Paul they will be known and destroyed by the brightness of the coming of Christ. So it would be an error to think the coming of Christ will be preceded by A man of sin. My understanding of the words of Paul in 2Th is that the Holy Spirit in believers is holding down, or keeping antichrists from destroying the Church on earth. At the coming of Christ, when the last trumpet sounds (1Co 15), believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. When we are gone, the Holy Spirit in us is taken out of the way, as Paul says. Then the wicked will be revealed and and the Lord shall consume by the spirit of His mouth, and brightness of His coming.

                If I am looking for One Man of sin to precede the coming of Christ in a moment and twinkling of an eye, then I might not be prepared for His coming again in glory. The following depiction of antichrists, according to Paul is the mystery of iniquity, after the working of Satan with power and lying wonders, with all unrighteousness of them that perish, who refuse to believe, because they hate the truth that could have saved them. But since they hate the truth, God sends them strong delusion to believe the lie, and therefore they will all be damned at His coming.

                2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
                2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
                2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
                2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
                2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                  Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
                  Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
                  Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                  Lu 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
                  Lu 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
                  Lu 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
                  Lu 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
                  Lu 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
                  And? What in this contradicts a single word I put?
                  Are you fixating on the words "they knew not"?
                  Of course they did NOT know, because they REJECTED the messenger and the message they were given.
                  The FACT that those IN darkness are blind is obvious.
                  However in 1 Thess 5 we are reminded that WE are IN the LIGHT, and NOT in darkness. So we will NOT be surprised by that Day UNLIKE those who are in the darkness, who will be saying "peace" etc.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    What scripture says that?
                    Dd Noah build the ark in secret? Do you have scripture saying that? No.
                    Could you hide building an ark of the dimensions which Noah built to? The ark was slightly smaller than the Titanic!
                    Does scripture say that Noah was a preacher of righteousness? Yes.
                    Did Noah therefore FAIL to tell people about the coming flood? No, for then he would not be a preacher of righteousness.
                    Scripture states that the 7 of clean animals came over a period of one week, at the end of which Noah and his family entered the ark.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                      Dd Noah build the ark in secret? Do you have scripture saying that? No.
                      So you do not have any scripture that supports that anyone else but family saw him building the Ark. Your position is then only opinion based on nothing but your own beliefs.

                      Does scripture say that Noah was a preacher of righteousness? Yes.
                      Yes but that doesn't support the idea that others saw the Ark.


                      Did Noah therefore FAIL to tell people about the coming flood? No, for then he would not be a preacher of righteousness.
                      What scripture says he was supposed to tell them? Scripture clearly says they were surprised by the flood so clearly Noah did not tell anyone.

                      Mat_24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



                      Scripture states that the 7 of clean animals came over a period of one week, at the end of which Noah and his family entered the ark.
                      Still isn't evidence of your claim.




                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RogerW View Post

                        I don't believe we are to look for A specific man, because we know there are MANY antichrists, and have been from the beginning. The man of sin, is not one but any who is not with Christ is against Christ (antichrists). When you look at the way antichrists are described by John, we find that Paul's description fits John's antichrists very well.

                        1 John 2:18 (KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
                        1 John 2:22 (KJV) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
                        1 John 4:3 (KJV) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
                        2 John 7 (KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

                        Although, according to Paul they will be known and destroyed by the brightness of the coming of Christ. So it would be an error to think the coming of Christ will be preceded by A man of sin. My understanding of the words of Paul in 2Th is that the Holy Spirit in believers is holding down, or keeping antichrists from destroying the Church on earth. At the coming of Christ, when the last trumpet sounds (1Co 15), believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. When we are gone, the Holy Spirit in us is taken out of the way, as Paul says. Then the wicked will be revealed and and the Lord shall consume by the spirit of His mouth, and brightness of His coming.

                        If I am looking for One Man of sin to precede the coming of Christ in a moment and twinkling of an eye, then I might not be prepared for His coming again in glory. The following depiction of antichrists, according to Paul is the mystery of iniquity, after the working of Satan with power and lying wonders, with all unrighteousness of them that perish, who refuse to believe, because they hate the truth that could have saved them. But since they hate the truth, God sends them strong delusion to believe the lie, and therefore they will all be damned at His coming.

                        2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
                        2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                        2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
                        2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
                        2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
                        2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
                        Well, we have to deal with Scriptures the way we see them--not the way somebody else sees them. I don't see looking for antichrists as "distracting" from my preparation for Christ's Coming. Dealing wit the deception of antichrists is precisely how we prepare for Christ's Coming. Deceivers are trying to distract us, and we have to expose them. To avoid the pitfalls we have to look for the pits!

                        I don't see how you get around the plain language of 2 Thes 2? It says plainly that Christ cannot come for his Church unless the "Wicked" appears 1st! This is precisely the pattern Christ used in the Olivet Discourse when he told his disciples to watch out for false Christs and false prophets *before* his Coming!

                        Be that as it may, keep on walking in the light. And I'll do the same. Take care...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                          So you do not have any scripture that supports that anyone else but family saw him building the Ark. Your position is then only opinion based on nothing but your own beliefs.



                          Yes but that doesn't support the idea that others saw the Ark.




                          What scripture says he was supposed to tell them? Scripture clearly says they were surprised by the flood so clearly Noah did not tell anyone.

                          Mat_24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.





                          Still isn't evidence of your claim.



                          Peter calls Noah a preacher of righteousness. Can you imagine if that happened today? A preacher of righteousness decides to build an aircraft carrier in the church parking lot.

                          "Hey preacher!! What are you building?!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                            Peter calls Noah a preacher of righteousness. Can you imagine if that happened today? A preacher of righteousness decides to build an aircraft carrier in the church parking lot.

                            "Hey preacher!! What are you building?!!
                            Preaching righteousness does not also mean people saw him building the Ark. Scripture says the "knew not" about the flood so they had no knowledge of a coming flood.




                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                              Preaching righteousness does not also mean people saw him building the Ark. Scripture says the "knew not" about the flood so they had no knowledge of a coming flood.
                              The reason why they were ignorant of the flood is due to the fact that the earth had never flooded before. That's Peter's point. He tells us that mockers will come saying "For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” In other words, why look forward to something that is impossible to happen? Why look forward to something that has never happened before? Those in Noah's time had never seen a world-wide flood.

                              Those watching Noah build the ark were probably thinking, "That crazy man, how is he ever going to get this thing to the beach?"

                              Comment

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