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The Great Tribulation is for Christians and NOT for the Jews

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  • Discussion The Great Tribulation is for Christians and NOT for the Jews

    I realised that a lot of confusion is held over the reason for the Great Tribulation (GT), along with who will go through it and its purpose.
    In Luke 21 we are told of a time of Great Distress which comes upon the Jews. Christians living at the time (70 AD) understood this passage to be meaning there time and fled across the Jordan.

    Matthew also writes of events occurring around Jerusalem when Jesus speaks of a Great Tribulation which will occur. Due to similarities between these two passages, the time when Jesus spoke this Discourse (often called the Olivet Discourse) many conflate the two events into one. This leads to issues in trying to show when this event will occur as in Matthew Jesus states unequivocally "Immediately after those days... the will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds..."

    If these two passages ARE about the SAME event then we have a problem in that clearly certain aspects have occurred, and others have not. This leads to people having some parts literally true and others symbolic, or with a shift of focus.

    However when you grasp that Luke 21 is referring to an event in the past, which was Great Distress for the Jews and the Desolation of Jerusalem, which Matthew recorded in Matthew 23, and that the Great Tribulation is an event yet to occur, which Luke records in Luke 17, then it is possible to grasp the focus of each event.

    What clouds things further are the scriptures which point to the time of Jacobs Trouble - a terrible day (Jeremiah 30:7). This event is also yet future and IS connected with Matt 24, Luke 17. However what we need to do is note that this event is a short event - noted as a Day in Jeremiah 30, and also in Zechariah 14, and is connected with the Day in Matt 24 when a person is to flee, a Day which you are to pray is NOT the Sabbath.

    Now when you appreciate that the Jews who flee Jerusalem on that Day, are those who are half of the people and are led into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6 - the woman who flees into the desert and is taken care of), then you realise it is the Offspring who are to be persecuted (Rev 12:17).
    This means that though the GT starts in Jerusalem against the Jews, after they flee, the war is waged against Christians.
    The GT is then focused on Christians and is the work of Satan, through the Antichrist.

    Those Jews who did not flee, unfortunately suffer a terrible time, raped and killed and for the Jewish nation as a whole it will be a terrible Day. However Jeremiah notes in 30:17 that God will restore them to health and heal their wounds.

  • #2
    It will not be the Jewish people living in Jerusalem, or in any of the holy Land, excepting for the few who have become Christian now.
    Revelation 12:6-17, makes it clear that the Christian people, from every tribe, race, nation and language will be the inhabitants of all the holy Land up to and during the Great Tribulation.
    Proved by the fact they are there when the Anti-Christ conquers them. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Keraz View Post
      It will not be the Jewish people living in Jerusalem, or in any of the holy Land, excepting for the few who have become Christian now.
      Revelation 12:6-17, makes it clear that the Christian people, from every tribe, race, nation and language will be the inhabitants of all the holy Land up to and during the Great Tribulation.
      Proved by the fact they are there when the Anti-Christ conquers them. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7
      Until the Day of Jacob's Trouble there DEFINITELY will be Jews living in Jerusalem. This is incontestably so from Jeremiah 30. To claim otherwise is then to reject not only the clear words found in Jeremiah 30, but other passages also.
      Rev 12 does NOT remotely suggest that the Christians will be even the predominant people living in the Holy Land.
      The Woman in Rev 12 is referring to a DIFFERENT group to her Offspring. Rev 12:17 has the Dragon go to war with her Offspring, for now the Woman is fled into the desert.

      Rev 13:7 does NOT speak about Israel but the whole world, so that verse does NOT support your claim. Again Dan 7:25 does NOT refer specifically to the Land of Israel, but speaks about the saints - where ever they may be.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
        Until the Day of Jacob's Trouble there DEFINITELY will be Jews living in Jerusalem. This is incontestably so from Jeremiah 30. To claim otherwise is then to reject not only the clear words found in Jeremiah 30, but other passages also.
        The Land: Burned and Desolate:

        The sudden and shocking Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, His terrible punishment by fire, will affect all the world, but will particularly affect that area given to Abraham, so many centuries ago. Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-35, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Genesis 17:8

        In the past there was several times that the holy Land has been virtually depopulated. First Assyria conquered Israel and Babylon conquered Judah. Judah was again conquered by the Romans in 70-135 AD and Jerusalem was flattened and ploughed over. But in each of these times the Land was never completely cleared or devastated to the extent described in the prophecies below. They will be fulfilled by the next prophesied event, as we can see from Isaiah 61:2b...proclaim a Day of vengeance of our God.
        It will be the ‘third swing of the sword’, Ezekiel 21:8-16 and the opening of the Sixth Seal., Revelation 6:12-17.

        Isaiah 26:24 The Lord is coming from His dwelling place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their sins.
        Isaiah 28:2 The Lord has one at His bidding; like a sweeping storm of hail and a destroying tempest that will beat down upon the earth with violence.
        Jeremiah 11:15-16 What right have My people to live in My holy Land with their shameless ways? Nothing they can do now will ward off the disaster, that with a great roaring noise will burn and consume them.
        Jeremiah 22:6-7 The Lord says about the Royal House of Judah: Though you are dear to Me, I swear that I shall turn your Land into a desert, a Land of towns no longer inhabited. A destructive force will come upon you and burn your dwellings.
        Isaiah 28:22b...for I have heard that destruction is decreed upon the whole Land.
        Ezekiel 20:47...I am about to kindle a fire...all the Land will be scorched by it.
        Jeremiah 7:32-34 The time is coming when the dead will fill the valley of Topeth [beside Jerusalem] and the whole Land will become like a desert. Jer. 19:11
        Jeremiah 5:8 & 12 I shall raise My hand against all the inhabitants of the Land and leave you devastated, a land without inhabitants.
        Jeremiah 12:14 The Lord says: I shall uproot the evil neighbours who have encroached onto My peoples Land. Also I shall uproot Judah from among them.
        Jeremiah 10:18 & 22 The Lord says: This time I shall throw out the whole population of the Land, I shall press them and squeeze them dry. Listen; a devouring horde comes to make Judah’s cities utterly desolate.
        Jeremiah 8:16 The Destroyer approaches and the whole Land trembles – it comes and consumes everything; crops, trees, city and citizens alike.
        Isaiah 24:18b-19 The earth’s foundations shake when the window of heaven is opened, the earth is struck and it staggers and reels wildly.
        Jeremiah 4:7 The Destroyer of nations has come out from his lair to devastate your Land and make your cities waste and empty. In an instant, the whole Land crashes down in ruin. I looked and there was no one, even the birds have gone.
        Joel 1:15-20 The Day of the Lord comes, a terrible destruction from the Almighty, all food is destroyed and fire has consumed the pastures and trees.
        Zephaniah 1:18 On the Day of the Lord’s wrath, by the fire of His jealousy the whole Land will be consumed, for He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land.
        Micah 1:6 I shall reduce Samaria to a ruin...I will level the hills and valleys.
        Jeremiah 25:33-38 The Lord is ravaging the shepherd’s pastures and their homes are ruined beneath the Lord’s fierce anger. The Land becomes a waste under the sword of the Destroyer and those whom the Lord kills on that Day, will be scattered from one end of the earth to the other, neither mourned or buried.
        Micah 5:11 I shall devastate the cities of your Land and destroy your military power.
        Jeremiah 9:10-11 & 21-22 I will chant a funeral dirge over the Land when I make Jerusalem a heap of ruins and the towns of Judah uninhabited. Death will enter your houses and will kill anyone in the streets. Corpses will lie like dung, like swaths behind the reaper, with no one left to gather them.
        Hosea 4:3 The Land will become desolate, all that lives in it will be wasted, even the wild animals, birds and fishes will vanish.
        Isaiah 64:10-11 Zion becomes a desert, the holy cities desolate, all that we cherished lies in ruins, burned to the ground.
        Jeremiah 4:26 The fertile Land has become desolate, its towns all razed to the ground before the fierce anger of the Lord.
        Isaiah 33:8a The roads are deserted, no one travels anywhere. The Land is parched and dry, stripped bare, like a desert.
        Isaiah 24:10 The city is shattered and in chaos, every house is barred and shuttered.
        Isaiah 32:14 Houses are empty, the crowded streets are deserted and the military areas are turned into open fields.
        Jeremiah 12:4 & 10-13 How long must the Land lie parched, its grass withered? No birds or beasts are left, because God has judged the wicked inhabitants, they said: God does not see what we are doing. Therefore a Sword from the Lord has devoured the Land from end to end and now it’s all a desolate wilderness.
        Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.

        This dramatic clearance of the holy Land will allow the Lord’s righteous people, now every faithful Christian, to migrate to all of the holy Land, a great gathering, described in over 40 prophecies.
        But before they “march, with great joy into the Land”; Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, the Lord will send rain and a tremendous regeneration will take place and they “will find food and water in plenty”. Isaiah 49:8-19, Ezekiel 36:8, Joel 2:21-24, Isaiah 51:3

        Comment


        • #5
          The GT is for the ungodly

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
            I realised that a lot of confusion is held over the reason for the Great Tribulation (GT), along with who will go through it and its purpose.
            In Luke 21 we are told of a time of Great Distress which comes upon the Jews. Christians living at the time (70 AD) understood this passage to be meaning there time and fled across the Jordan.

            Matthew also writes of events occurring around Jerusalem when Jesus speaks of a Great Tribulation which will occur. Due to similarities between these two passages, the time when Jesus spoke this Discourse (often called the Olivet Discourse) many conflate the two events into one. This leads to issues in trying to show when this event will occur as in Matthew Jesus states unequivocally "Immediately after those days... the will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds..."

            If these two passages ARE about the SAME event then we have a problem in that clearly certain aspects have occurred, and others have not. This leads to people having some parts literally true and others symbolic, or with a shift of focus.

            However when you grasp that Luke 21 is referring to an event in the past, which was Great Distress for the Jews and the Desolation of Jerusalem, which Matthew recorded in Matthew 23, and that the Great Tribulation is an event yet to occur, which Luke records in Luke 17, then it is possible to grasp the focus of each event.

            What clouds things further are the scriptures which point to the time of Jacobs Trouble - a terrible day (Jeremiah 30:7). This event is also yet future and IS connected with Matt 24, Luke 17. However what we need to do is note that this event is a short event - noted as a Day in Jeremiah 30, and also in Zechariah 14, and is connected with the Day in Matt 24 when a person is to flee, a Day which you are to pray is NOT the Sabbath.

            Now when you appreciate that the Jews who flee Jerusalem on that Day, are those who are half of the people and are led into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6 - the woman who flees into the desert and is taken care of), then you realise it is the Offspring who are to be persecuted (Rev 12:17).
            This means that though the GT starts in Jerusalem against the Jews, after they flee, the war is waged against Christians.
            The GT is then focused on Christians and is the work of Satan, through the Antichrist.

            Those Jews who did not flee, unfortunately suffer a terrible time, raped and killed and for the Jewish nation as a whole it will be a terrible Day. However Jeremiah notes in 30:17 that God will restore them to health and heal their wounds.
            This certainly provides a fresh new look at what arguably, is one of the most complex end-time doctrines. Various interpretations abound; some claim it started in 70 AD and will end when Jesus returns. This view fails to address some of the pertinent hallmarks of the GT namely, that it will be shortened or no life will survive. And that the divine intervention will be because of the "elect". As objective as one may be, it is IMPOSSIBLE to recognise these two features in the 2000+ years version of the GT, popularly promoted by Randy.

            Over the years I have tried (without successive I suppose) to show that the reason Luke wrote the gospels in two chapters 17 & 21 is to ensure they are not conflated into one event. That said, I agree that a large number of Jews will also suffer the tribulation on account of their rejection of the Two Witnesses ministry. Some might argue that the two are unconnected, but I disagree. I believe that their 1260 days and the 3.5 years of the Antichrist will run concurrently.

            The way I see it, the Jews that accept their gospel will ultimately accept the NT wherein lies the warning to flee for dear life.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
              The GT is for the ungodly
              And where did you read that?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                And where did you read that?
                The Great Tribultaion of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls is directed toward those who take the mark of the beast. This is found in Revelation 13:1-16 and in Revelation 16:11.
                Revelation 12:14 says that half of the Christians will be taken to a place of safety, on earth. The other half, those who did violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain, Revelation 12:17

                You say the Jews will ultimately accept the Gospel.
                Do you reject all the verses I posted in #4?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?

                  The olivet discourse (Matthew):

                  Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
                  Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

                  False Christ's are warned about.

                  Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

                  These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you".

                  Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


                  The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


                  Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

                  "Ye" are Christians.
                  So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

                  Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

                  "Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


                  Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
                  Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

                  The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

                  Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

                  Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

                  Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

                  Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


                  Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
                  Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

                  You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

                  Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


                  Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
                  Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
                  Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
                  Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
                  Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


                  And here is the second coming. Again, nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


                  The olivet discourse (Mark):

                  Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
                  Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
                  Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

                  He is talking to his Christian disciples.

                  Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

                  This is the false Christ that Christians are warned about.

                  Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
                  Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
                  Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

                  "for my sake" means the reason they are delivered to councils and beaten in Jewish synagogues is because they are Christians! This is not about Jewish persecution or punishment at all.

                  Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

                  That's the Christian gospel of Christ not a Jewish gospel.


                  Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

                  "you" here is still the same people he is talking about, Christians.

                  Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
                  Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

                  Here iit is again. Those that carry the name of Christ, Christians, will be the ones persecuted.


                  Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
                  Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
                  Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
                  Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
                  Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
                  Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
                  Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

                  The elect here are the same people in the entire OD, Christians!


                  Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

                  Again Christians are being warned about the false Christ.


                  Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

                  Same Christian elect here as well.


                  Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
                  Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
                  Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
                  Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
                  Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

                  And here is the second coming of the Christian Messiah and the rapturing/gathering.


                  Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
                  Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
                  Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
                  Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
                  Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
                  Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
                  Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
                  Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
                  Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
                  Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

                  Never once does the subject change from Christian persecution to anything about the Jews being targeted for persecution or punishment. The OD is fully and completely about Christian persecution and AD70 was only about the Jews rebelling against the Roman's and being defeated.


                  In the GT Christians will be beaten in Jewish synagogues simply because Christians are the ones being persecuted not the Jews.


                  AD 70 subject?? Hardly! None of it is about AD 70 and the Roman's punishing the Jews....literally nothing.




                  Let's see what Revelation says about persecution in the great tribulation:


                  Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
                  Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
                  Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


                  The ones persecuted are Christians!


                  Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
                  Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
                  Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
                  Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
                  Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
                  Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

                  The ones persecuted are Christians!


                  Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

                  Christians are Satan's target!


                  Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

                  The saints are Christians not Jews. The tribulation is war on Christianity.

                  Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

                  The witness of Jesus means they are Christians. The ones persecuted are Christians!
                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    This certainly provides a fresh new look at what arguably, is one of the most complex end-time doctrines. Various interpretations abound; some claim it started in 70 AD and will end when Jesus returns. This view fails to address some of the pertinent hallmarks of the GT namely, that it will be shortened or no life will survive. And that the divine intervention will be because of the "elect". As objective as one may be, it is IMPOSSIBLE to recognise these two features in the 2000+ years version of the GT, popularly promoted by Randy.

                    Over the years I have tried (without successive I suppose) to show that the reason Luke wrote the gospels in two chapters 17 & 21 is to ensure they are not conflated into one event. That said, I agree that a large number of Jews will also suffer the tribulation on account of their rejection of the Two Witnesses ministry. Some might argue that the two are unconnected, but I disagree. I believe that their 1260 days and the 3.5 years of the Antichrist will run concurrently.

                    The way I see it, the Jews that accept their gospel will ultimately accept the NT wherein lies the warning to flee for dear life.
                    One question I think which helps clarify what is going on when is:
                    Who is fleeing from where and when?

                    The answer is clearly those who are living in Jerusalem (and Judea), and the timing is also clearly ON THE DAY when the city is taken.

                    This then leads to another question - who takes the city and when is this?

                    This is where the answers become more debatable, but we do have some clues to help us.
                    One clue is that clearly BECAUSE you have to flee this is NOT the same DAY as the Rapture.
                    We know this because when the Rapture happens, none who are Raptured have any need to run, because they are caught up to Jesus. So fleeing is an incomprehensible instruction for the Rapture. This removes a lot of PreTrib claims.

                    Nor is it the same DAY when God comes to defeat His enemies.
                    This is again for the same reason - that when God comes He is coming in victory triumphing over His enemies and those who are His are saved.

                    This means we need to read Zech 14:5 carefully. Just as many thought that when the Messiah would come, so the kingdom would start at the same time with the Messiah ruling over an earthly kingdom from Jerusalem because of the prophecies about Him, so when we read Zech 14 we have to note that he Day to flee is NOT the Day when He comes with all His holy ones.

                    Further as the action is happening in Jerusalem and Judea and makes reference to the Sabbath, so it is speaking about the Jews.Interestingly it is Matthew who notes about the importance of the Sabbath in Matt 24:20. This should leads us to consider what terrible Day is prophesied for the Jews - and this is spoken of in Jeremiah and Zechariah. This was NOT fulfilled in 70 AD.

                    However we are also told that those who flee, are the ones who are then safe, though in exile. This ties them in directly with the woman of Rev 12 who flees into the wilderness - and she is there for the duration of the beast's reign.

                    I find no way to have the rule of the beast and the 2W to be concurrent. Rather the 2W witness to the Jews for 1260 days, and the 2W prevent the city falling to the Beast and his allies. This is a FINAL witness for the Jews, as then those who do not heed the 2W will fall to the Beast, those who do, will be led to be nourished in the wilderness (which speaks of not just bread alone, but by every word that comes from God (Deut 8:3) It will be a modern day Exodus - with a similar consequence. At the end they will be led into the Promised Land.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                      The Great Tribultaion of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls is directed toward those who take the mark of the beast. This is found in Revelation 13:1-16 and in Revelation 16:11.
                      Revelation 12:14 says that half of the Christians will be taken to a place of safety, on earth. The other half, those who did violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain, Revelation 12:17

                      You say the Jews will ultimately accept the Gospel.
                      Do you reject all the verses I posted in #4?
                      Here is where you are COMPLETELY wrong!
                      The 7 Trumpets are NOT part of the GT.
                      The 7 Bowls occur AT THE SAME TIME as the GT.

                      However the 7 Bowls are the action of God against those who take the mark of the Beast.
                      The GT is the work of the Beast against those who refuse to take the mark - specifically against Christians. However like the Holocaust was not only against he Jews (though specifically and predominantly), so the GT will impact everyone who doesn't take the mark.

                      As for your previous verses - some have already been fulfilled, and others are part of the DAY of Jacob's Trouble which occurs at the START of the GT.

                      The GT starts with the Dragon waging war on the Jews. Once that is done - they are either taken or they flee - THEN the war is waged against Christians.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?
                        The olivet discourse (Matthew):
                        Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
                        Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
                        False Christ's are warned about.
                        Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
                        These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you".
                        Actually is this correct? Why are Jews persecuted? Why in Orthodox countries did they have pogroms? Have you read the Merchant of Venice? Jews have been persecuted throughout the world, and this is because Jews are blamed for killing Jesus - it is for His name's sake they are persecuted.
                        IOW this is not only about Christians, though I agree this is the focus of the message.

                        Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
                        The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.

                        Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
                        "Ye" are Christians. So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.
                        Actually the"you" is generic for those who see it, and note Matthew highlights the ones who read the words, that they might understand.
                        It will affect the whole world, but its START is NOT the whole world, but Jerusalem.

                        Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
                        "Ye" is still the same people, Christians.
                        So the Sabbath matters to Christians? An interesting question.

                        Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
                        Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
                        The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.
                        Actually the elect are Jews and Christians - He has sheep of more than one fold.
                        The Jews made the mistake of thinking the Gentiles are irrelevant.
                        Today most Christians - the Gentiles - make the mistake of thinking the Jews are irrelevant. Neither is correct.

                        Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
                        Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.
                        Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
                        Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.
                        Refers just as well to a Jew who is seeking God.

                        Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
                        Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
                        You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.
                        Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.
                        Here is where you are foundationally wrong. The target of the dragon IS the Jews, and ONLY once that is finished does the target CHANGE to Christians. This is WHY the GT STARTS at Jerusalem, and not some other place.

                        AD 70 subject?? Hardly! None of it is about AD 70 and the Roman's punishing the Jews....literally nothing.
                        I notice that though you quoted Mark, you did NOT quote Luke which DOES say many things about the Jews. You see WHEN we remove part of scripture we fall into error, and when we try to make all of scripture about the same thing (which is another form of reduction) we fall into error.

                        For example Luke 21:6, which is also in Mark 13:2 (which you didn't quote) and Matt 24:2 all highlight the stones which they are looking at being thrown down.
                        How about Luke 21:23?
                        "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people."
                        Who is "this people"? Surely this is speaking about the Jews. This speaks very clearly about 70 AD.

                        To claim the OD does NOT concern the Jews is therefore wrong, but to also make it all about the Jews is wrong.


                        Let's see what Revelation says about persecution in the great tribulation:
                        Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
                        Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
                        Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
                        The ones persecuted are Christians!
                        Though I agree these are Christians, this is NOT about those who are in the GT. These are Christians through the ages who suffered persecution (or tribulation). Yet they are told to wait for more will be killed.

                        Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
                        Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
                        Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
                        Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
                        Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
                        Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
                        The ones persecuted are Christians!
                        The 2W are Christians, but most of these verses are speaking about what the 2W will do to their enemies, who are NOT Christians. This is NOT about the GT either.

                        Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
                        Christians are Satan's target!
                        There are TWO targets mentioned in this verse you quote.
                        The FIRST target is the Woman.
                        The SECOND target is her seed.
                        The seed are indeed Christians, the Woman however are the Jews.

                        Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
                        The saints are Christians not Jews. The tribulation is war on Christianity.
                        Indeed this is the MAIN focus of the GT.
                        It is one particular Day for the Jews, followed by years for Christians.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                          The Great Tribultaion of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls is directed toward those who take the mark of the beast. This is found in Revelation 13:1-16 and in Revelation 16:11.
                          Revelation 12:14 says that half of the Christians will be taken to a place of safety, on earth. The other half, those who did violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain, Revelation 12:17

                          You say the Jews will ultimately accept the Gospel. Do you reject all the verses I posted in #4?
                          For a start, you are notable for quoting scriptures out of context. For example, Dan 11:32 refer to the devout Jews that resisted Antiochus IV and his Hellenization scheme in Judea. The passage also addressed the fate of pious Jews at the aftermath of A4E's slaughter of over 40,000 Jews after his disgraceful return from his Egyptian campaign according to Flavius Josephus. You will find further info in 1 Maccabees 2.

                          IOW, Dan 11:32 was fulfilled long before Jesus was born in Bethlehem!

                          The great tribulation will trouble the whole world, particularly the church, not only those that have taken the mark of the beast. You always reef off scriptures that prove your limited understanding, e.g. the church is the NOT the woman in Rev 12:14. This is just one in a long list of copy & paste scriptures that you take out of context.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            One question I think which helps clarify what is going on when is:
                            Who is fleeing from where and when?

                            The answer is clearly those who are living in Jerusalem (and Judea), and the timing is also clearly ON THE DAY when the city is taken.

                            This then leads to another question - who takes the city and when is this?

                            This is where the answers become more debatable, but we do have some clues to help us.
                            One clue is that clearly BECAUSE you have to flee this is NOT the same DAY as the Rapture.
                            We know this because when the Rapture happens, none who are Raptured have any need to run, because they are caught up to Jesus. So fleeing is an incomprehensible instruction for the Rapture. This removes a lot of PreTrib claims.

                            Nor is it the same DAY when God comes to defeat His enemies.
                            This is again for the same reason - that when God comes He is coming in victory triumphing over His enemies and those who are His are saved.

                            This means we need to read Zech 14:5 carefully. Just as many thought that when the Messiah would come, so the kingdom would start at the same time with the Messiah ruling over an earthly kingdom from Jerusalem because of the prophecies about Him, so when we read Zech 14 we have to note that he Day to flee is NOT the Day when He comes with all His holy ones.

                            Further as the action is happening in Jerusalem and Judea and makes reference to the Sabbath, so it is speaking about the Jews.Interestingly it is Matthew who notes about the importance of the Sabbath in Matt 24:20. This should leads us to consider what terrible Day is prophesied for the Jews - and this is spoken of in Jeremiah and Zechariah. This was NOT fulfilled in 70 AD.

                            However we are also told that those who flee, are the ones who are then safe, though in exile. This ties them in directly with the woman of Rev 12 who flees into the wilderness - and she is there for the duration of the beast's reign.

                            I find no way to have the rule of the beast and the 2W to be concurrent. Rather the 2W witness to the Jews for 1260 days, and the 2W prevent the city falling to the Beast and his allies. This is a FINAL witness for the Jews, as then those who do not heed the 2W will fall to the Beast, those who do, will be led to be nourished in the wilderness (which speaks of not just bread alone, but by every word that comes from God (Deut 8:3) It will be a modern day Exodus - with a similar consequence. At the end they will be led into the Promised Land.
                            I started a thread a couple of years ago that asked whether the 2Ws 1260 days and the beast's 42 months will be consecutive or concurrent? I recall that the consensus was that they will be concurrent otherwise, we'll be looking at 7 years because 1260 days and 42 months are each 3.5 years.

                            Your question to who "takes the city and when?" is addressed in Zech 14:2. The "who" is undoubtedly the Antichrist's army made up of soldiers who either volunteered or were conscripted from the nations of the world. And the attack on Jerusalem will come after those that have come to faith have fled the city. It is impossible for a large proportion of the Jewish population to up-sticks, and flee in 24 hrs. So the concern about their flight falling into a sabbath day is that it will impact their chances of escape. It is most likely that the faithful will need more than 24hrs to leave Jerusalem, so if one of the days falls into the Sabbath, it will hamper their efforts.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              I started a thread a couple of years ago that asked whether the 2Ws 1260 days and the beast's 42 months will be consecutive or concurrent? I recall that the consensus was that they will be concurrent otherwise, we'll be looking at 7 years because 1260 days and 42 months are each 3.5 years.
                              So I am not with the consensus - is that surprising?
                              You see the beast can reign for a week - we have that in Dan 9:27. However he ONLY can conquer the Jews and Christians at the mid-point of the week. This ties in EXACTLY with the picture of the 2W at the start of the week prophesying for 42 months, and NO ONE (including the beast) can get them. They are living proof that the beast is NOT god.
                              However when the beast finally kills them THEN he will demonstrably show that he is greater and that he is god, and his reign then starts of the 42 months.

                              Your question to who "takes the city and when?" is addressed in Zech 14:2. The "who" is undoubtedly the Antichrist's army made up of soldiers who either volunteered or were conscripted from the nations of the world. And the attack on Jerusalem will come after those that have come to faith have fled the city. It is impossible for a large proportion of the Jewish population to up-sticks, and flee in 24 hrs. So the concern about their flight falling into a sabbath day is that it will impact their chances of escape. It is most likely that the faithful will need more than 24hrs to leave Jerusalem, so if one of the days falls into the Sabbath, it will hamper their efforts.
                              The attack will occur 3.5 days AFTER the beast has slain the 2W.
                              The simple chronology is:
                              Beast makes covenant with many nations (10 of them it seems) - start of the last week.He attacks Israel but is unable to complete his conquest
                              2W prophesy - 1260 days beast unable to act due to their ability to call down plagues, fire etc.
                              Beast comes and kills the 2W - party for 3.5 days
                              2W raised and raptured - beast enraged and starts killing the Jews in Jerusalem. A city he already had conquered but now starts his extermination.
                              Those who were left in the city and hadn't fled, have a last Day in which to do so - and it will be difficult. Half will be taken.
                              It is ONLY the population of Jews in Jerusalem and the surrounding countryside to up sticks. It will be a terrible time and many will die.
                              Those who believed whilst the 2W witnessed will have left. It is those who were wavering, who will finally see the truth about the beast will leave, yet many will fail to do so. The figure given by Jesus and Zechariah is 50% get out and 50% don't. More than 24 hours might have been needed, but once the 2W rapture, the Day starts.

                              A key point though is that clearly the Rapture does NOT happen in this time.
                              Another key point and why your consensus is wrong, is that the beast would be unable to complete the conquest of Jerusalem while the 2W are alive. In fact Rev 11 states that though the Gentiles will control the city they won't control the Temple area.

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