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Understanding Daniel 2 kingdoms in a SIMPLE way

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  • Understanding Daniel 2 kingdoms in a SIMPLE way

    A lot of people struggle with the kingdoms mentioned in Daniel 2.
    They find it hard to follow what Daniel EXPLICITLY stated.
    To help I am going to give an analogy which should make it CLEAR.

    This time it is a vision of a car:

    You saw a car,
    It had a beautiful shining chrome body,
    For the driver and passengers it had plush leather seats,
    It had a steering wheel and gearstick in walnut trim,
    The engine was made of a solid block of iron
    The wheels were made of iron and rubber.

    You are that chrome body,
    after you another kingdom comes less shiny,
    Next the third kingdom, one of walnut trim will rise to rule over the earth
    And a fourth kingdom, strong as iron will power everything
    Just as you saw the wheels made partly of iron and partly of rubber, so this will be a divided kingdom.


    Now when you read the above statements you should notice that this is a SINGLE car.
    You would then notice it is broken down into FIVE separate aspects:
    1) Body of Chrome
    2) Seats of Leather
    3) Steering Wheel and Gearstick of Walnut Trim
    4) Engine of Iron
    5) Wheels of Iron and Rubber

    This separation INTO FIVE is then also given when it is connected to the kingdoms.
    1) Your kingdom
    2) Less shiny kingdom
    3) The Third, a Walnut Trim kingdom
    4) And a Fourth, an Iron kingdom
    5) A partly Iron and partly Rubber kingdom.

    NONE of these FIVE kingdoms speak about any of the other FIVE kingdoms.
    The 4th and 5th kingdoms BOTH have Iron, but the 5th is NOT part of the 4th just because it also has Iron.
    Iron simply denotes strength.

    I hope this simple analogy clarifies what Daniel was saying in Daniel 2. There ARE FIVE kingdoms in Daniel 2 broken down just like in my analogy.

  • #2
    A few people have read this thread, but none have yet to comment.
    I was expecting someone to challenge and write that this explanation does NOT match Daniel 2.
    As no one has done so, it suggests it does match Daniel 2.
    This means that Daniel 2 speaks of FIVE kingdoms and I won;t need to discuss this point further to clarify.

    Comment


    • #3
      36 “This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; 38 and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.



      That is 1




      39 After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.




      That is 3



      40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. 41 In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. 42 As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. 43 And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.


      that is 4



      44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.



      That was Jesus high 5.
      And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
        I hope this simple analogy clarifies what Daniel was saying in Daniel 2. There ARE FIVE kingdoms in Daniel 2 broken down just like in my analogy.
        It is incorrect as a theoretical interpretation of the passage, in my view. We've been discussing this, and my same points remain. There is *no mention* of there being *5 Kingdoms.* If you wish to list 5 component parts, that is never stated to represent *5 Kingdoms.*

        On the contrary, we have only 4 Kingdoms, since only a 4th Kingdom is mentioned, which defeats all of the previous Kingdoms, or at least, displaces their prominent positions in the region. And this 4th Kingdom is assumed to *become* a mixed Kingdom over time, and as such, remains the *same Kingdom,* and not a *5th Kingdom.*

        It is this 4th Kingdom, in its latter stage of "iron mixed with clay,* that is destroyed, in effect destroying the entire Image. This is God's Kingdom displacing the predominance of independent human government in Europe, and in the world. The 4th Kingdom is the European Political Status Quo, which I define as the "Roman Kingdom."

        Thus, the iron mixed with clay is a continuation of the 4th Iron Kingdom. The addition of Clay does not change the fact it is the 4th Iron Kingdom continuing in its latter stages. In my view, the 4th Kingdom began with the Roman Empire, which was separated into 2 halves, Eastern and Western. And when the ancient phase of the "Roman Kingdom" passed, European government continued unabated through Christian political forms.

        Today, Christian political forms are returning to a paganized form of those governments, preparing the way for the final Antichristian stage of this Kingdom. It is not a 5th Kingdom, as defined in Nebuchadnezzar's Dream. The 4th Kingdom encompasses all of the stages that are destroyed at the Return of Christ.

        As Christian political forms in Europe and around the world continue headlong into apostasy, we will be in the same place as ancient Israel, who left its former estate of relationship with God. And this will signal the coming of Christ, who will restore God's Kingdom on earth personally.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
          36 “This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; 38 and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.

          That is 1
          Agreed.

          39 After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.

          That is 3
          I would say that is 2 & 3.

          40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. 41 In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. 42 As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. 43 And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.

          that is 4
          Here is where we disagree.
          You have 4 correctly, but then miss 5. I have underlined the 5th one.

          44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

          That was Jesus high 5.
          Again we disagree as this WILL BE Jesus, for the point in Daniel 2 is NOT about a heavenly Kingdom, but a Kingdom which will be on earth.
          Therefore this speaks of when Jesus returns to rule, and this is kingdom 6.

          I notice you did NOT refer to the analogy and show where the analogy which CLEARLY shows the 5 kingdoms on earth differs from Dan 2.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            It is incorrect as a theoretical interpretation of the passage, in my view. We've been discussing this, and my same points remain. There is *no mention* of there being *5 Kingdoms.* If you wish to list 5 component parts, that is never stated to represent *5 Kingdoms.*
            So you FAIL to highlight ANYTHING in my analogy as being wrong.
            You simply STATE it is wrong, but do NOT show where it is wrong!
            The point of this thread is to present the things AS Daniel presented them, which CLEARLY shows FIVE kingdoms BEFORE that of God's.
            I have listed it AS Daniel 2 put it.
            Therefore what would help is NOT any "theological interpretation" but a FACTUAL and LOGICAL discussion on the analogy and where it is differing from Daniel 2.
            IF there is NO difference THEN it shows that my claim for FIVE kingdoms is COMPLETELY LOGICAL.
            IF it is LOGICAL then it also means it will be TheoLOGICALly possible, and even probable.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post


              Here is where we disagree.
              You have 4 correctly, but then miss 5. I have underlined the 5th one.

              No, v41 doesnt refer to a 5th kingdom. It is simply stating that the 4th kingdom in v40 will be a divided one

              40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. 41 In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.

              Again we disagree as this WILL BE Jesus, for the point in Daniel 2 is NOT about a heavenly Kingdom, but a Kingdom which will be on earth.
              Therefore this speaks of when Jesus returns to rule, and this is kingdom 6.
              Not so.... it was Jesus first coming as a stone which then began to grow into a mountain as the Gospel of the kingdom spread all around the world.

              How would you explain the process of the stone becoming a mountain so that the eternal kingdom fills the earth.?

              You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found.
              But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.


              His winnowing fork is already in his hand yes.
              Lk 3
              7His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

              18 So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people.
              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                So you FAIL to highlight ANYTHING in my analogy as being wrong.
                You simply STATE it is wrong, but do NOT show where it is wrong!
                The point of this thread is to present the things AS Daniel presented them, which CLEARLY shows FIVE kingdoms BEFORE that of God's.
                I have listed it AS Daniel 2 put it.
                Therefore what would help is NOT any "theological interpretation" but a FACTUAL and LOGICAL discussion on the analogy and where it is differing from Daniel 2.
                IF there is NO difference THEN it shows that my claim for FIVE kingdoms is COMPLETELY LOGICAL.
                IF it is LOGICAL then it also means it will be TheoLOGICALly possible, and even probable.
                I didn't say your position is "illogical"--I said it was wrong, and I gave you the reason why I think so. You indicate the passage teaches *5 Kingdoms* when it only teaches *5 component parts,* 2 of which comprise a single Kingdom.

                What is wrong is that you base your theory on something that is not explicitly said. You draw the conclusion that 5 component parts, gold, silver, bronze, iron, and clay comprise 5 Kingdoms, when the passage indicates there are only 4 Kingdoms, the 4th displacing the 3 previous Kingdoms and adds the 5th component part to its own Kingdom.

                Thus, this 4th Kingdom has 2 phases, and does not constitute 2 separate Kingdoms. This 4th Kingdom's 1st phase is the ancient imperial stage, in which there were the 2 parts of the old Roman Empire, East and West. The final phase of this 4th Kingdom consists of 2 Feet and 10 Toes, in which the Antichrist ultimately presents a final attempt to stop the Kingdom of Christ.

                So the error is with your assumption that the 5th component part, Clay, somehow represents a 5th Kingdom, when that is not said. On the contrary, the Clay is mixed together with the Iron, indicating that the 4th Kingdom of Iron is indeed the last, but has Clay added to it to complete the final phase of this Kingdom.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                  No, v41 doesnt refer to a 5th kingdom. It is simply stating that the 4th kingdom in v40 will be a divided one

                  40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. 41 In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.
                  Incorrect. Verse 40 speaks of ONE Kingdom (which is the FOURTH Kingdom). However verse 41 speaks of ANOTHER Kingdom (which is the FIFTH Kingdom). NOTHING in verse 40 refers to the Kingdom of Feet and Toes, and NOTHING in verse 41 refers to the Kingdom of Legs.
                  This is evident in your quote above.
                  The words "it will be a divided kingdom refers to what Daniel SAW, which was stated as "the Feet and Toes..."
                  This is what the word "it" does. It references the previously mentioned thing.

                  Not so.... it was Jesus first coming as a stone which then began to grow into a mountain as the Gospel of the kingdom spread all around the world.
                  How would you explain the process of the stone becoming a mountain so that the eternal kingdom fills the earth.?
                  It is NOT about Jesus' first coming, but about His Second coming.
                  What MUST happen first is the Kingdoms of Man will be SMASHED by the Kingdom of God. This means EITHER the Postmil view is correct and the Kingdom of God fills the earth BEFORE His return OR the Premil view is correct and when Jesus comes He smashes the Kingdoms of this world and they become the kingdom of the Lord. This then speaks of the Millennium Kingdom.

                  His winnowing fork is already in his hand yes.
                  Lk 37His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
                  18 So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people.
                  Is He presently ruling ON earth with an Iron Rod? No He is NOT. His Kingdom is NOT YET of this world.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by randyk View Post
                    I didn't say your position is "illogical"--I said it was wrong, and I gave you the reason why I think so. You indicate the passage teaches *5 Kingdoms* when it only teaches *5 component parts,* 2 of which comprise a single Kingdom.
                    To CLAIM something is wrong REQUIRES you to show what IS wrong about it.
                    You did NOT show from the analogy I have given above that ANYTHING is wrong.
                    Instead you simply claim it is wrong WITHOUT any recourse to LOGIC or to what has been put.

                    What is wrong is that you base your theory on something that is not explicitly said. You draw the conclusion that 5 component parts, gold, silver, bronze, iron, and clay comprise 5 Kingdoms, when the passage indicates there are only 4 Kingdoms, the 4th displacing the 3 previous Kingdoms and adds the 5th component part to its own Kingdom.
                    My point is VERY EXPLICITLY said. It is CONSISTENT through out Daniel 2.
                    YOURS is what is based on what is NOT said making the Feet a mythical extension of a defunct kingdom.
                    Daniel LISTS the parts of the Body categorising them as FIVE distinct parts.
                    Daniel states the materials of the Body again giving DIFFERENT materials to the DIFFERENT parts. He has FIVE materials.
                    Daniel describes FIVE kingdoms, with a description for EACH kingdom. Count them, there are FIVE.
                    Not once does Daniel make the Feet a component or connected with the Legs. This is contrast with when Daniel speaks about the Thighs which WERE a component of the Bronze kingdom.

                    Read the analogy again, then highlight WHERE the analogy deviates from Daniel 2.
                    I would be VERY SURPRISED if you find any real deviation.
                    THEN highlight WHERE the analogy is NOT sound in interpretation.
                    Working through this allows a FRESH look at what you have seen so many times and think through what Daniel is ACTUALLY saying instead of what some commentator or translator forces you to follow.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                      A few people have read this thread, but none have yet to comment.
                      I was expecting someone to challenge and write that this explanation does NOT match Daniel 2.
                      As no one has done so, it suggests it does match Daniel 2.
                      This means that Daniel 2 speaks of FIVE kingdoms and I won;t need to discuss this point further to clarify.
                      I'm not sure why it makes a difference whether Daniel is speaking of four or five kingdoms. What is at stake? I'm not sure. Anyway,

                      Let's remind ourselves of the materials:

                      Gold,
                      Silver
                      Bronze
                      Iron
                      Iron mixed with clay.

                      That looks like five to me.

                      In my view, the more interesting question is what the materials represent. I'm not interested in what they mean taken individually. I am more interested in what they represent taken as a whole. Gold is different from silver; silver is different from bronze, and etc.

                      Numerically the statue looks like this

                      1
                      2
                      1
                      2
                      10

                      Again, five kingdoms.

                      Once again, I am more interested in what the numbers represent taken as a whole. What is the symbolic meaning of the fact that the final empire is divided into many parts as compared to the first empire that has one part?

                      hmm, I have some thoughts. Maybe I should start another thread.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                        To CLAIM something is wrong REQUIRES you to show what IS wrong about it.
                        You did NOT show from the analogy I have given above that ANYTHING is wrong.
                        Instead you simply claim it is wrong WITHOUT any recourse to LOGIC or to what has been put.


                        My point is VERY EXPLICITLY said. It is CONSISTENT through out Daniel 2.
                        YOURS is what is based on what is NOT said making the Feet a mythical extension of a defunct kingdom.
                        Daniel LISTS the parts of the Body categorising them as FIVE distinct parts.
                        Daniel states the materials of the Body again giving DIFFERENT materials to the DIFFERENT parts. He has FIVE materials.
                        Daniel describes FIVE kingdoms, with a description for EACH kingdom. Count them, there are FIVE.
                        Not once does Daniel make the Feet a component or connected with the Legs. This is contrast with when Daniel speaks about the Thighs which WERE a component of the Bronze kingdom.

                        Read the analogy again, then highlight WHERE the analogy deviates from Daniel 2.
                        I would be VERY SURPRISED if you find any real deviation.
                        THEN highlight WHERE the analogy is NOT sound in interpretation.
                        Working through this allows a FRESH look at what you have seen so many times and think through what Daniel is ACTUALLY saying instead of what some commentator or translator forces you to follow.
                        I'm not basing my arguments on commentators here. I've said that where you're wrong is in saying that 5 component parts, gold, silver, bronze, iron, and clay constitute *5 Kingdoms.* Yes, my argument is that a *5th Kingdom* is not mentioned. You are arguing for something that is not said. I'm arguing for something that *is* said, namely a 4th Kingdom in which the previous 3 Kingdoms are displaced.

                        Your assumption is that when the Iron has Clay added to it that a new Kingdom emerges after the Iron Kingdom. But in reality, the Iron Kingdom continues because *Clay is added to it.*

                        I may accept your argument if the different elements actually represent different Kingdoms. But a Clay Kingdom does not follow an Iron Kingdom. Rather, an Iron Kingdom is followed by an Iron mixed with Clay Kingdom, indicating in reality that the Iron Kingdom is simply continuing into a latter stage. Clay is not displacing Iron--rather, it is being *added* to the Iron.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

                          I'm not sure why it makes a difference whether Daniel is speaking of four or five kingdoms. What is at stake? I'm not sure. Anyway,

                          Let's remind ourselves of the materials:

                          Gold,
                          Silver
                          Bronze
                          Iron
                          Iron mixed with clay.

                          That looks like five to me.

                          In my view, the more interesting question is what the materials represent. I'm not interested in what they mean taken individually. I am more interested in what they represent taken as a whole. Gold is different from silver; silver is different from bronze, and etc.

                          Numerically the statue looks like this

                          1
                          2
                          1
                          2
                          10

                          Again, five kingdoms.

                          Once again, I am more interested in what the numbers represent taken as a whole. What is the symbolic meaning of the fact that the final empire is divided into many parts as compared to the first empire that has one part?

                          hmm, I have some thoughts. Maybe I should start another thread.
                          Cady, all of the points are interesting to me--the number of Kingdoms, the number and different kinds of elements, and what they all mean. I also have wondered what's the big deal if 4 or 5 Kingdoms? And really, it really doesn't matter much, except for one single thing.

                          If we see the 4th Kingdom defined as a single, and last, Kingdom--the Roman Kingdom--then the narrative in the book of Revelation makes more sense to me. The Antichrist Kingdom is portrayed as a picture of the failure of Christian Civilization in Europe, in the shadow of Israel's own failure in the Old Testament. It is an extension of one nation's failure to a failure of Christianity in the world among those who've turned back. Of course, the true Church prevails through all tests.

                          So, for me, it's simply a matter of keeping the biblical language consistent so that we can properly understand the apocalyptic narrative. Otherwise, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans whether these are 4 or 5 Kingdoms. In reality, the 4 Kingdoms I see there themselves represent many more Kingdoms, as well, as you point out.

                          The Iron Kingdom does not transition to a Clay Kingdom. Inasmuch as the Iron Kingdom has Clay added to it in a latter phase of that Kingdom this indicates it is defined as a single Kingdom spanning time in 2 stages. Just my opinion, brother!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by randyk View Post

                            Cady, all of the points are interesting to me--the number of Kingdoms, the number and different kinds of elements, and what they all mean. I also have wondered what's the big deal if 4 or 5 Kingdoms? And really, it really doesn't matter much, except for one single thing.

                            If we see the 4th Kingdom defined as a single, and last, Kingdom--the Roman Kingdom--then the narrative in the book of Revelation makes more sense to me. The Antichrist Kingdom is portrayed as a picture of the failure of Christian Civilization in Europe, in the shadow of Israel's own failure in the Old Testament. It is an extension of one nation's failure to a failure of Christianity in the world among those who've turned back. Of course, the true Church prevails through all tests.

                            So, for me, it's simply a matter of keeping the biblical language consistent so that we can properly understand the apocalyptic narrative. Otherwise, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans whether these are 4 or 5 Kingdoms. In reality, the 4 Kingdoms I see there themselves represent many more Kingdoms, as well, as you point out.

                            The Iron Kingdom does not transition to a Clay Kingdom. Inasmuch as the Iron Kingdom has Clay added to it in a latter phase of that Kingdom this indicates it is defined as a single Kingdom spanning time in 2 stages. Just my opinion, brother!
                            But isn't the Roman empire gone? How then can it be the final kingdom? Doesn't John's description of the final kingdom suggest an amalgamation of the first three empires? (refer to Revelation 13:1-2 Leopard-Bear-Lion.)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                              A lot of people struggle with the kingdoms mentioned in Daniel 2.
                              They find it hard to follow what Daniel EXPLICITLY stated.
                              To help I am going to give an analogy which should make it CLEAR.

                              This time it is a vision of a car:

                              You saw a car,
                              It had a beautiful shining chrome body,
                              For the driver and passengers it had plush leather seats,
                              It had a steering wheel and gearstick in walnut trim,
                              The engine was made of a solid block of iron
                              The wheels were made of iron and rubber.

                              You are that chrome body,
                              after you another kingdom comes less shiny,
                              Next the third kingdom, one of walnut trim will rise to rule over the earth
                              And a fourth kingdom, strong as iron will power everything
                              Just as you saw the wheels made partly of iron and partly of rubber, so this will be a divided kingdom.


                              Now when you read the above statements you should notice that this is a SINGLE car.
                              You would then notice it is broken down into FIVE separate aspects:
                              1) Body of Chrome
                              2) Seats of Leather
                              3) Steering Wheel and Gearstick of Walnut Trim
                              4) Engine of Iron
                              5) Wheels of Iron and Rubber

                              This separation INTO FIVE is then also given when it is connected to the kingdoms.
                              1) Your kingdom
                              2) Less shiny kingdom
                              3) The Third, a Walnut Trim kingdom
                              4) And a Fourth, an Iron kingdom
                              5) A partly Iron and partly Rubber kingdom.

                              NONE of these FIVE kingdoms speak about any of the other FIVE kingdoms.
                              The 4th and 5th kingdoms BOTH have Iron, but the 5th is NOT part of the 4th just because it also has Iron.
                              Iron simply denotes strength.

                              I hope this simple analogy clarifies what Daniel was saying in Daniel 2. There ARE FIVE kingdoms in Daniel 2 broken down just like in my analogy.
                              You have invented a non-existent fifth kingdom despite Daniel's explicit explanation that the feet of iron and clay are part of the 4th kingdom. You have been told by several people that your theory has no scriptural backing, but you're having none of it. With your ludicrous car analogy where the iron wheels and rubber tires magically become separate and NOT part of the car, you did the same thing you often accused Randy of - that he never accepts correction.

                              Comment

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