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  • the *real* Great Tribulation

    My message here has gone unheeded and somewhat ignored. And yet it continues to stand as a self-evident truth. The Great Tribulation is the NT Jewish Diaspora. It is beyond dispute.

    All I can conclude is that the majority here have a vested interest in popular eschatology and all of its excesses. They want to believe all of the popular prophecy books that declare the Great Tribulation is all about the Reign of Antichrist.

    Though I do believe the book of Revelation is all about the 3.5 years of the Reign of Antichrist, it does not define the "Great Tribulation" as the Reign of Antichrist. Rather, it only suggests that the long Tribulation of the Jewish People ends with a final persecution of the Church under Antichrist.

    Clearly, the Tribulation, as defined in the book of Revelation, is a period in which the Church also is persecuted. However, the persecution results from people who have had the Kingdom taken away from them as a punishment, leaving them angry with God and with His people. Those who have had the Kingdom taken from them are not just Israel, but also Christian Civilization.

    Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies [66-70 AD], you will know that its desolation [70 AD] is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out [escape to Pella], and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment [NT Jewish Diaspora] in fulfillment of all that has been written [Dan 9.26-27]. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress [the *real* Great Tribulation*] in the land and wrath against this people [the Jewish Punishment]. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations [historic dispersion of the Jews throughout the world]. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled [until the end of the age]."

    I've been stating this on this forum for some time, and its legitimacy is disregarded. So here it is again, for those who have ears to hear.


  • #2
    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    My message here has gone unheeded and somewhat ignored. And yet it continues to stand as a self-evident truth. The Great Tribulation is the NT Jewish Diaspora. It is beyond dispute.

    All I can conclude is that the majority here have a vested interest in popular eschatology and all of its excesses. They want to believe all of the popular prophecy books that declare the Great Tribulation is all about the Reign of Antichrist.

    Though I do believe the book of Revelation is all about the 3.5 years of the Reign of Antichrist, it does not define the "Great Tribulation" as the Reign of Antichrist. Rather, it only suggests that the long Tribulation of the Jewish People ends with a final persecution of the Church under Antichrist.

    Clearly, the Tribulation, as defined in the book of Revelation, is a period in which the Church also is persecuted. However, the persecution results from people who have had the Kingdom taken away from them as a punishment, leaving them angry with God and with His people. Those who have had the Kingdom taken from them are not just Israel, but also Christian Civilization.

    Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies [66-70 AD], you will know that its desolation [70 AD] is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out [escape to Pella], and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment [NT Jewish Diaspora] in fulfillment of all that has been written [Dan 9.26-27]. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress [the *real* Great Tribulation*] in the land and wrath against this people [the Jewish Punishment]. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations [historic dispersion of the Jews throughout the world]. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled [until the end of the age]."

    I've been stating this on this forum for some time, and its legitimacy is disregarded. So here it is again, for those who have ears to hear.
    Do you not see Thess 5:3 and Matt 24:19 - "with child' as the same event.

    Thess 5

    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    Matt 24

    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    Thus Thess 5 is clearly an end time event not 70AD thus then so too is Matt 24!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
      Do you not see Thess 5:3 and Matt 24:19 - "with child' as the same event.
      Thess 5
      3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
      Matt 24
      19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
      Thus Thess 5 is clearly an end time event not 70AD thus then so too is Matt 24!!!
      Yes, thanks Ross. Good question. Watermark has asked the same question, and I'll tell you what I told him. 1st, this has nothing to do with what Jesus said in my post, namely Luke 21.20-24. As I said, it has been continually disregarded. But again, your question is legitimate, even though it doesn't really have to do with the term "Great Tribulation."

      Your question concerns the "Birth Pains." It is my position that there are 2 distinct sets of Birth Pains mentioned in these 2 very different passages. Both are prophetic, but one speaks of the Jewish Punishment, and is delivered while the Law was still in effect and while Israel was still the only nation of God. The other passage speaks of the 2nd Coming and is delivered in the Church Age, when both Jews and non-Jewish nations are combined as a people in Christ.

      To the Jewish People Jesus spoke as a prophet to the nation, just as Isaiah, or Jeremiah, or Ezekiel had done. He declared a long age of punishment for the nation, allowing sin to run rampant among its leadership and among its people until God has allowed enough tolerance and time for Gentile peoples to repent, as Israel has been given time to do themselves.

      Jesus said that Israel had come to the height of its sin, in rejecting their Messiah, and punishment for the nation was imminent. That punishment would be the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, essentially ending Jewish religion under the Law. From that time on, it was called Rabbinic Judaism, because it had changed. The temple, the priesthood, and the sacrifices were gone, just as it had been during the Babylonian Captivity. Only this Captivity would last for the *entire NT age!*

      So the Birth Pain Jesus spoke of had to do with the warning signs of this impending time of judgment, beginning in 70 AD. Those birth pains consisted of a nation producing leaves, just as Christianity had emerged in Israel. But there would be no fruit produced as a nation. The nation, overall, would reject their Messiah, and would not embrace their Messiah. They would not produce fruit.

      And so, instead, the nation would turn to debauchery, embracing external religion, but cloaking intense hatred for anything Christian. Idolatry was in their hearts, as they put themselves before God. This wickedness, and this hate for Christians, were signs of Israel's impending destruction. There would even be natural disasters to make the point especially obvious. Coupled with this would be aggressive stirring from Rome--wars, police actions, and rumors of invasions. These were the "birth pains" in the Olivet Discourse, preparing the way for a great punishment to befall the Jews in that particular generation.

      By contrast, Paul, in 1 Thes 5, spoke of the end of the age, when Christ would come. He spoke after Jesus had definitively declared this coming punishment upon the Jewish People. And Paul was now turning to the Gentile nations, calling for them to repent before their own judgment takes place at the end of the age. For if they reject their new-found faith the way the Jewish People had rejected their own Messiah, they too will experience a great backlash from God at the 2nd Coming!

      And that's what the "birth pains" mean in 1 Thes 5. It has to do with the warning signs of the end of the age. They are things like a great apostasy taking place in the midst of Christian Civilization, a turning, like the Jewish People, to debauchery, exhibiting Christian morality externally but perversion internally. The natural disasters, wars, and plagues of our own time are warning signs, or "birth pains," of the coming disaster at Armageddon, because Christian Civilization has rejected their Christ.

      These are 2 very different passages with 2 very different contexts. Just because the term "birth pains" is used in both passages does *not* mean the same context is in view. Context rules! Here they are:

      Matt 24.4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

      9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

      1 Thes 5.1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

      4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by randyk View Post
        My message here has gone unheeded and somewhat ignored. And yet it continues to stand as a self-evident truth. The Great Tribulation is the NT Jewish Diaspora. It is beyond dispute.

        All I can conclude is that the majority here have a vested interest in popular eschatology and all of its excesses. They want to believe all of the popular prophecy books that declare the Great Tribulation is all about the Reign of Antichrist.

        Though I do believe the book of Revelation is all about the 3.5 years of the Reign of Antichrist, it does not define the "Great Tribulation" as the Reign of Antichrist. Rather, it only suggests that the long Tribulation of the Jewish People ends with a final persecution of the Church under Antichrist.

        Clearly, the Tribulation, as defined in the book of Revelation, is a period in which the Church also is persecuted. However, the persecution results from people who have had the Kingdom taken away from them as a punishment, leaving them angry with God and with His people. Those who have had the Kingdom taken from them are not just Israel, but also Christian Civilization.

        Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies [66-70 AD], you will know that its desolation [70 AD] is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out [escape to Pella], and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment [NT Jewish Diaspora] in fulfillment of all that has been written [Dan 9.26-27]. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress [the *real* Great Tribulation*] in the land and wrath against this people [the Jewish Punishment]. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations [historic dispersion of the Jews throughout the world]. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled [until the end of the age]."

        I've been stating this on this forum for some time, and its legitimacy is disregarded. So here it is again, for those who have ears to hear.
        We do differ here we have to think why is it called “The great tribulation”

        The only time that the words “The great tribulation” is mentioned in the bible is below and the bible clearly says that it is on the saints from every nation tribe and people the church. It’s called the great tribulation because it’s on the church and world wide and it’s been going for almost 2000 years and it’s still happening today which is the worst tribulation that there ever has ever been and ever will be because it’s on innocent people because they love and follow Jesus nothing could be worse.

        Revelation 7:9-11
        9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

        “Salvation belongs to our God,
        who sits on the throne,
        and to the Lamb.”

        11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

        “Amen!
        Praise and glory
        and wisdom and thanks and honor
        and power and strength
        be to our God for ever and ever.
        Amen!”

        13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

        14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

        And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

        “they are before the throne of God
        and serve him day and night in his temple;
        and he who sits on the throne
        will shelter them with his presence.
        16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
        never again will they thirst.
        The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
        nor any scorching heat.
        17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
        will be their shepherd;
        ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[b]
        ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]
        Last edited by marty fox; Sep 9 2020, 03:22 AM. Reason: Added info

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by marty fox View Post

          We do differ here we have to think why is it called “The great tribulation”

          The only time that the words “The great tribulation” is mentioned in the bible is below and the bible clearly says that it is on the saints from every nation tribe and people the church. It’s called the great tribulation because it’s on the church and world wide and it’s been going for almost 2000 years and it’s still happening today which is the worst tribulation that there ever has ever been and ever will be because it’s on innocent people because they love and follow Jesus nothing could be worse.

          Revelation 7:9-11
          9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

          “Salvation belongs to our God,
          who sits on the throne,
          and to the Lamb.”

          11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

          “Amen!
          Praise and glory
          and wisdom and thanks and honor
          and power and strength
          be to our God for ever and ever.
          Amen!”

          13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

          14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

          And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

          “they are before the throne of God
          and serve him day and night in his temple;
          and he who sits on the throne
          will shelter them with his presence.
          16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
          never again will they thirst.
          The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
          nor any scorching heat.
          17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
          will be their shepherd;
          ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[b]
          ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]
          A legitimate question. Again, there is no address of the passage in question, which pretty explicitly says what I say it says. It does refer to the "Great Tribulation," so I would question your claim that the *only* place you will find reference to it is in Rev 7? Also, I believe the whole sense of the Great Tribulation derives from Dan 12, where the angels informs Daniel that a time of Distress will befall Israel in the time following the Syrian persection, which is when the Romans arose as the 4th Kingdom mentioned in Dan 2 and 7.

          Dan 12.“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

          Luke 21.23 There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

          So, this time of Distress, or "Great Tribulation," is defined as a Jewish Punishment, but one that is brought on by Jewish debauchery, as well as by their hostility towards God and towards His people, the disciples of Jesus.

          This is why Rev 7 portrays the Church being persecuted in this "time of Distress," because at the same time those who were called of God abandoned their faith and turned against God, they began to persecute and kill God's People. It is, in other words, a "time of Distress" for 2 reasons: both because those who turn against God are punished and because those faithful to God are persecuted by those who are not faithful.

          You will find that in Jesus' Olivet Discourse he describes the time of "Birth Pains," leading up to the 70 AD Judgment, as being a time in which Israel is viewed as apostate and wicked, and also a time when the new-born Church is persecuted. So the Great Tribulation is both--both punishment for those called of God and turning against Him, and trouble for innocent believers who, like Christ, suffer from those who turn away from the faith.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by randyk View Post


            A legitimate question. Again, there is no address of the passage in question, which pretty explicitly says what I say it says. It does refer to the "Great Tribulation," so I would question your claim that the *only* place you will find reference to it is in Rev 7? Also, I believe the whole sense of the Great Tribulation derives from Dan 12, where the angels informs Daniel that a time of Distress will befall Israel in the time following the Syrian persection, which is when the Romans arose as the 4th Kingdom mentioned in Dan 2 and 7.

            Dan 12.“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

            Luke 21.23 There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

            So, this time of Distress, or "Great Tribulation," is defined as a Jewish Punishment, but one that is brought on by Jewish debauchery, as well as by their hostility towards God and towards His people, the disciples of Jesus.

            This is why Rev 7 portrays the Church being persecuted in this "time of Distress," because at the same time those who were called of God abandoned their faith and turned against God, they began to persecute and kill God's People. It is, in other words, a "time of Distress" for 2 reasons: both because those who turn against God are punished and because those faithful to God are persecuted by those who are not faithful.

            You will find that in Jesus' Olivet Discourse he describes the time of "Birth Pains," leading up to the 70 AD Judgment, as being a time in which Israel is viewed as apostate and wicked, and also a time when the new-born Church is persecuted. So the Great Tribulation is both--both punishment for those called of God and turning against Him, and trouble for innocent believers who, like Christ, suffer from those who turn away from the faith.
            What I’m getting at is that you call this thread “The real great tribulation” but the only time the bible states “The great tribulation” is in revelation 7.

            Jesus in the Olivit discourse says that there will be great tribulation or great distress just like Daniel 12 does but there can only be one “The great tribulation” because it’s the worst one that’s why it gets the term “THE” added to great tribulation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Christ described the great trib as one that Christians suffer and it would be the worst tribulation they would ever suffer. He said it would be shortened so the elect would survive it so it is going to be shorter than originally intended. It has nothing at all to do with the Jews of Judaism and it also isn't a SUPER LONG tribulation as Randy proposes.

              Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?

              The olivet discourse (Matthew):

              Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
              Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

              False Christ's are warned about.

              Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

              These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you".

              Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


              The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


              Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

              "Ye" are Christians.
              So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

              Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

              "Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


              Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
              Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

              The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

              Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

              Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

              Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

              Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


              Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
              Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

              You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

              Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


              Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
              Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
              Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
              Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
              Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


              And here is the second coming. Again, nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.
              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by marty fox View Post

                What I’m getting at is that you call this thread “The real great tribulation” but the only time the bible states “The great tribulation” is in revelation 7.

                Jesus in the Olivit discourse says that there will be great tribulation or great distress just like Daniel 12 does but there can only be one “The great tribulation” because it’s the worst one that’s why it gets the term “THE” added to great tribulation.
                It's called the "Great Tribulation" because it is the last and worst punishment Israel will ever suffer. It encompasses the entire rest of the age from the time they rejected Jesus. Israel arrives at the zenith of its sin, and turn against Christ and Christianity. As a result, the Jewish People enter into this time of greatest judgment in their history, during which time other nations are given the same opportunity as they themselves had been given. It is the "great" tribulation because there has never been anything like it, nor will there ever be again. Israel is at the height of its sin, having rejected their King and Messiah. And they've entered into their last and worst judgment, certainly at least in terms of the time spent under God's Wrath.


                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  Christ described the great trib as one that Christians suffer and it would be the worst tribulation they would ever suffer. He said it would be shortened so the elect would survive it so it is going to be shorter than originally intended. It has nothing at all to do with the Jews of Judaism and it also isn't a SUPER LONG tribulation as Randy proposes.
                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post


                  On the contrary, the Jews continue to be under God's wrath even today. This is a very long time for a nation to remain in exile. I suppose you could just write them off as eternally lost. But I believe the Scriptures say they will recover. Some will be eternally judged. But some will be saved, and provide the basis for a complete reconstitution of the nation around faith in Christ.

                  Again, you will have to address the quotation I gave you. It says what it says. But yes, what could go on indefinitely until Israel completely expires as a nation is "cut short" so that Israel is not annihilated. What is "cut short" is a period of time that ultimately leads to extermination of a race. That process will be cut short so that the nation can be reconstituted.

                  You only have to read the passage to know that Jesus is talking to the Jewish People. The Gentile Church had not even been born yet! Within Israel the vast majority turned away from Christianity and closed their eyes to Christ. This left the Jewish People under Punishment, and the believing few under persecution from those who chose to hate Christ and Christianity. So this was both national judgment and Christian persecution. It was both!

                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?


                  Initially it was Christian Jews. After the Gentile Church was born, the same process would be followed in the non-Jewish nations. The people would be Christianized, and would eventually turn away from the faith, among the majority. And the few real Christians would be persecuted by the wicked who had gained ascendancy.


                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  The olivet discourse (Matthew):

                  Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
                  Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

                  False Christ's are warned about.

                  Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

                  These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you".

                  Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


                  The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


                  Yes, the Gospel of the Kingdom is about warning godly nations about judgment if they don't repent, and about salvation to those who do repent. Those who don't repent fall under Great Tribulation. Nevertheless, those who do repent and become Christians are victimized by those who don't repent.


                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

                  "Ye" are Christians.
                  So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.


                  These were the disciples of Jesus who had been listening to Jesus. They would see the abominable Romans come into town and be stationed in the holy vicinity of Jerusalem and the temple. The disciples of Jesus at that time witnessed this, fled, and escaped to Pella.


                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

                  "Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


                  They were the believers among the Jews who Jesus warned against the coming judgment upon Israel. They could heed his words and flee when the sign of the AoD appeared.


                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
                  Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

                  The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.


                  The judgment has come upon the Jewish nation, leading to great dispersion of the Jewish People. To ultimately save the nation, the people had to be preserved through this "Great Tribulation," or Punishment. It is for the "elect," or those who would become Christians among them, that the Jewish People would be preserved for the final salvation of national Israel. This would lead to the Christianization of the Jewish nation.


                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

                  Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.


                  Yes, the Jewish Christians of Jesus' time. They would later by joined by Gentile Christians, but at the time, Jesus was speaking only to the Jewish People, and to Jewish disciples.


                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

                  Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


                  Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
                  Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

                  You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

                  Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


                  Jesus initially warned of false Christs to the Jewish People. He was speaking to *Jews* when he said this! This was not just about the Antichrist, but about antichrists--plural. There has been false Christs from the time of the Old Covenant and throughout the NT period. But the message began as a message to the Jewish people and to Jewish Christians.


                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
                  Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
                  Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
                  Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
                  Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


                  And here is the second coming. Again, nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


                  The entire Discourse is spoken to Jewish People, specifically to Jewish Christians, well before Gentile Christianity had even been born yet. I don't know how you can say these early Christians were not Jews?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by randyk View Post
                    [SIZE=18px]My message here has gone unheeded and somewhat ignored.
                    I can't claim to have read every post of yours on the subject, but I don't think your point is being ignored. I don't remember reading a post from someone who denies that Luke 21:20 predicts the Roman attack on Jerusalem. Most of us agree on that point, which is perhaps the reason why we don't talk about it much. We aren't ignoring it, we simply grant the point as taken: Luke 21:20 predicts the Roman attack on Jerusalem.

                    For my part, the locus of the dispute is Matthew 24:15, which you claim is parallel with Luke 21:20. I am no longer convinced that these two verses are parallel. A fair reading of Luke 21 will not produce the concept of a universal great tribulation, since Luke speaks of "great distress upon the land and wrath to this people." And yet, Revelation 7 speaks about a universal tribulation upon people from every tribe, tongue, and etc.

                    Matthew 24, on the other hand, speaks about a tribulation that effects all flesh. Had the days not been cut short, Jesus says, no flesh would be saved. While Luke's account remains focused on a particular people, Matthew's account broadens in scope to all flesh.

                    Luke's gospel speaks about the Jewish Diaspora (Luke 21:24), as you rightly point out. Yet, Matthew gives no mention of an exile. Luke's gospel speaks about the times of the Gentiles; Matthew gives no account of these times.

                    Though I do believe the book of Revelation is all about the 3.5 years of the Reign of Antichrist, it does not define the "Great Tribulation" as the Reign of Antichrist. Rather, it only suggests that the long Tribulation of the Jewish People ends with a final persecution of the Church under Antichrist.
                    I agree with you here. Thus, given my current understanding, I would place Luke 21:20 at the beginning of the timeline, and Matthew 24:15 at the end of the timeline.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by randyk View Post
                      [SIZE=18px]My message here has gone unheeded and somewhat ignored. And yet it continues to stand as a self-evident truth. The Great Tribulation is the NT Jewish Diaspora. It is beyond dispute.
                      Are you really claiming I have ignored every time you have claimed this?
                      Further to claim something is a self-evident truth, requires it to be self-evident. However the self-evident TRUTH is that the Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 IS the SAME Great Tribulation spoken of in Revelation 7.
                      To say it is beyond dispute means there is no way we could dispute something and it would be wrong to do so.
                      However it is CLEARLY your view which is disputable.
                      The Great Distress spoken of in Luke 21 IS a different word to that for Tribulation in the Greek, and also in English.
                      To conflate the TWO means you need evidence PROVING this, which is NOT provided in Luke 21 are requires CHANGING what Jesus said was the evidence for one thing, to evidence of something else. It means CHANGING who the Tribulation effects also.
                      To CHANGE scripture in this way is extremely poor handling of His Word.
                      What is BEYOND dispute is that Luke 21 speaks of Great Distress for the Jews.
                      What is also BEYOND dispute is that Matt 24 and Rev 7 speak of Great Tribulation for the whole world.
                      THEREFORE it is CLEAR that the TWO things are NOT the SAME.
                      As per your OP the Great Tribulation is NOT about the Jews, but about Christians being persecuted prior to Jesus return.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post
                        I can't claim to have read every post of yours on the subject, but I don't think your point is being ignored. I don't remember reading a post from someone who denies that Luke 21:20 predicts the Roman attack on Jerusalem. Most of us agree on that point, which is perhaps the reason why we don't talk about it much. We aren't ignoring it, we simply grant the point as taken: Luke 21:20 predicts the Roman attack on Jerusalem.
                        I'm glad you're weighing in, Cady. It gives me hope. Actually, I find lots of resistance to affirming that the Olivet Discourse is all about the 70 AD destruction and its accompanying age of Jewish Punishment. The problem is not so much a denial by all that this is about 70 AD, though some certainly do, but it is more about trying to subvert the importance of it in the Discourse.

                        There continues to be an abject denial that the term "Great Tribulation" has anything to do with the historic Jewish Punishment--the Jewish Diaspora, and instead direct it to the Reign of Antichrist. I do understand this because it's in all of the prophetic literature. It is a mark of contemporary eschatology, particularly the popular works. It's coming out of Dallas Theological Seminary and the 20th century emphasis on Pretribulationism, with its movies and books.

                        I therefore find it very difficult to get a serious reassessment of how this term has been used on this particular forum, as well as elsewhere. There is a natural resistance to change. There is comfort in a public consensus. But as you can see--the argument is overwhelming. Nevertheless, there is this irrational resistance to the facts.


                        Originally posted by CadyandZoe;n2723504[/SIZE
                        For my part, the locus of the dispute is Matthew 24:15, which you claim is parallel with Luke 21:20. I am no longer convinced that these two verses are parallel. A fair reading of Luke 21 will not produce the concept of a universal great tribulation, since Luke speaks of "great distress upon the land and wrath to this people." And yet, Revelation 7 speaks about a universal tribulation upon people from every tribe, tongue, and etc.


                        Yes, this is the kind of confusion I'm talking about--an acceptance of the fact that 70 AD and the Jewish Dispersion is in focus, and yet a basic confusion of the elements that make this clear. So here are the points.

                        1) It is a fact that in Luke 21 Jesus is speaking of an age-long Jewish Dispersion, which he explicitly refers to as the "Great Tribulation."
                        2) It is a fact that the Olivet Discourse, mentioned in 3 different Gospel authors, is the *same Address,* and says the *same things.* The "Distress" in Matt 24 and Mark 13 cannot be other than the "Distress" in Luke 21. The Abomination of "Desolation" in Matt 24 and Mark 13 cannot be other than the "Desolation" in Luke 21.
                        3) When Jesus mentions "Distress" in Matthew and Mark, it is the same "Distress" mentioned in Luke.

                        Matt 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

                        Here, you have the AoD, which I take as the Roman Army in 66-70 AD, associated with the "Great Tribulation," which we have already admitted is in Luke 21 described as the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the accompanying Dispersion of the Jews throughout the NT period. If the AoD is the Antichrist, we have this problem:

                        1) The AoD is not mentioned to be the Antichrist in this passage.
                        2) The AoD relates back to Dan 9.26-27, where it relates to the destruction of the city and the sanctuary, 70 AD.
                        3) The AoD is here viewed as initiating the "Great Tribulation," and Antichrist did *not initiate the Jewish Punishment, or the Jewish Diaspora, aka the "Great Tribulation."


                        Originally posted by CadyandZoe;n2723504[/SIZE
                        Matthew 24, on the other hand, speaks about a tribulation that effects all flesh. Had the days not been cut short, Jesus says, no flesh would be saved. While Luke's account remains focused on a particular people, Matthew's account broadens in scope to all flesh.


                        This kind of argument is made repeatedly in forums like this. It is, I think, a basic misunderstanding of how language works in the Scriptures, and even outside of the Scriptures. Words are not always over-expressed. "All flesh" could obviously be qualified by the context, eg "all of the flesh of those involved." It could mean "all of the flesh of the Jewish People," or "all of the flesh of people involved at that time." You really need to apply the rules of context.

                        If you just assume, as many do, that the "Great Tribulation" is the epic battle between Antichrist and God, it's easy to view "all flesh" as a reference to the whole world, which Antichrist dominates.

                        However, if we more properly see the context as the Jewish Punishment, then we properly see "all flesh" as a reference to "all Israel." The fear is that Israel will go extinct, if the historic punishment is allowed to go on too long, and "all flesh" will cease to exist.

                        Originally posted by CadyandZoe;n2723504[/SIZE
                        Luke's gospel speaks about the Jewish Diaspora (Luke 21:24), as you rightly point out. Yet, Matthew gives no mention of an exile. Luke's gospel speaks about the times of the Gentiles; Matthew gives no account of these times.


                        You would have to assume that the Olivet Discourse means different things to Matthew and to Luke. And this is unthinkable! They aren't covering 2 sides of the same coin and coming to different conclusions! This is, in my book, completely irrational. It's an effort to squeeze the endtimes into this largely historical prophecy. Certainly Jesus references the endtimes, ie the "end" and his 2nd Coming, but his focus is explicitly on his own *generation.*

                        Mat 24.21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again... 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

                        Jesus is here describing the worst Jewish Punishment in Israel's history, which was to begin in his own generation! That could only be the Jewish Diaspora!

                        Originally posted by CadyandZoe
                        I agree with you here. Thus, given my current understanding, I would place Luke 21:20 at the beginning of the timeline, and Matthew 24:15 at the end of the timeline.


                        You're certainly welcome to your own opinion, but I should hope you understand why I find this irrational? It's an emotional appeal to reintroduce an endtime aspect to the Olivet Discourse that is not there! Certainly, the endtimes is there, inasmuch as reference is made to the end of the age. But there is nothing whatsoever there about the Antichrist, or about his reign! Nothing!

                        There is a guttural rejection of things that sound like Preterism because most of us agree that Preterism is wrong, but also because there has been many decades of Pretribulational/Dispensational propaganda in prophetic literature. We *want* the Olivet Discourse to be all about the Antichrist and the endtimes. Why do we do this when we can find plenty in Dan 7 and in Rev 13-20 that directly address those subjects?

                        Personally, I credit the Preterists with helping to turn me around. I'm certainly not a Preterist, but their one great contribution to me personally is their focus on the historicity of the subject of the Olivet Discourse. The one thing they seem to fail to emphasize is the "Great Tribulation" and its long history of Jewish Punishment. They seem to want to focus the AoD only on 70 AD, to the neglect of the Jewish Diaspora. And that may be because they want to focus only on Jesus' generation, and on ancient Rome, and not on the end of the age. But the "Great Tribulation," as defined by Jesus, takes us from 70 AD to the end of the age, which is precisely why I'm choosing to focus on this term.

                        In sum, the Dispensationalists and Modern Futurists want the Olivet Discourse to be all about the Antichrist, and define the AoD as the Antichrist. The Preterists want the Olivet Discourse to be all about the 1st generation of the Church, and properly see the AoD all about 70 AD. The Church Fathers saw it pretty much the same way, although they weren't Preterists.

                        I agree with the Church Fathers and the Preterists that the AoD was 66-70 AD, but I disagree with the Preterists that the Discourse and Revelation were largely only about the Early Church and 70 AD. Instead, I see the AoD as the Roman Army destroying Jerusalem and only beginning an age-long "Great Tribulation" of the Jewish People--the NT Jewish Diaspora.

                        Somebody prove me wrong! I think the Church Fathers had it right!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          [SIZE=16px]

                          Your question concerns the "Birth Pains." It is my position that there are 2 distinct sets of Birth Pains mentioned in these 2 very different passages. Both are prophetic, but one speaks of the Jewish Punishment, and is delivered while the Law was still in effect and while Israel was still the only nation of God. The other passage speaks of the 2nd Coming and is delivered in the Church Age, when both Jews and non-Jewish nations are combined as a people in Christ.
                          Understand the birth "pangs" are the "punishment" in itself. The pangs then lead to a birth. So in 70AD the destruction of Jerusalem would equate to the pangs, so then what was the "birth" in 70 AD? get my point?

                          You see there is only one set of pangs which lead to a birth. There is only one birth. The birth after the pangs is the second coming. The pangs are the tribulations leading up to this event.

                          These are 2 very different passages with 2 very different contexts. Just because the term "birth pains" is used in both passages does *not* mean the same context is in view. Context rules! Here they are:
                          Peace and safety (Thess) = AOD (Matt 24 people will finally say peace and safety)
                          Sudden destruction (Thess) = GT Matt 24 from God

                          You see they are the same.




                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by randyk View Post

                            [SIZE=16px]On the contrary, the Jews continue to be under God's wrath even today.
                            The GT is wrath from Satan not from God.


                            [SIZE=16px]You only have to read the passage to know that Jesus is talking to the Jewish People. The Gentile Church had not even been born yet!
                            It was never born. The Jewish disciples were the first Christians, who were the Christian church. Gentiles who accept Christ belong to that church.



                            Jesus initially warned of false Christs to the Jewish People. He was speaking to *Jews* when he said this!

                            He was speaking to his Christian disciples and through time those Christians who would read the gospels. Those of Judaism for the most part do not read the gospels and if they did, they don't believe Jesus anyways.



                            The entire Discourse is spoken to Jewish People, specifically to Jewish Christians, well before Gentile Christianity had even been born yet. I don't know how you can say these early Christians were not Jews?
                            "specifically to Jewish Christians" is what they were. You keep claiming he warned the other Jews but that is false and it's false that the GT is God punishing the Jews. The GT has nothing to do with Jews or Israel being punished or persecuted. It's Christians that will be persecuted. AD70 has nothing to do with any part of the GT. The GT hasn't even started yet and it's a short time of 42 months not nearly 2000 years and still going.



                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by randyk View Post


                              It's called the "Great Tribulation" because it is the last and worst punishment Israel will ever suffer. It encompasses the entire rest of the age from the time they rejected Jesus. Israel arrives at the zenith of its sin, and turn against Christ and Christianity. As a result, the Jewish People enter into this time of greatest judgment in their history, during which time other nations are given the same opportunity as they themselves had been given. It is the "great" tribulation because there has never been anything like it, nor will there ever be again. Israel is at the height of its sin, having rejected their King and Messiah. And they've entered into their last and worst judgment, certainly at least in terms of the time spent under God's Wrath.

                              But how would you explain the multitudes of Jews who became believers over the last 2000 years?

                              They moved from the wrath of God to the persecution this alone proves that there is a difference from the tribulation of Israel and the tribulation of the saints

                              How I see it is that I think that you confuse tribulation with Gods wrath.

                              Gods wrath is from God on the ungodly including apostate Israel and the tribulation is on the church one is from God and the other is from satan and Revelation separates the wrath of God from the tribulation for example

                              God wrath is

                              the seals
                              the bowls
                              the trumpets
                              the judgement of Babylon the great by the beast for Gods purpose
                              the casting into the lake of fire of satan the beast and the false prophet
                              and never ends until the end of the world when it is destroyed by fire

                              The tribulation or the persecution is

                              from the beast
                              from the false prophet
                              from satan
                              and Babyon the great

                              But the difference is that the great tribulation or persecution on the saints ends it ends moments before the end of the world Revelation is clear that they are both different







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