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  • Great Tribulation 2 aspects

    Synthesizing National Punishment and Christian Persecution in the Great Tribulation of Israel.

    I've been told the "Great Tribulation" is either Israel's Punishment or Christian Persecution--it can't be both! The Great Tribulation of the Jewish People in the NT period cannot both be national judgment and Christian persecution. Really?

    I believe the Great Tribulation, as Jesus defined it, is a national judgment against Israel which will last throughout the NT era. I also believe that tribulation will be enlarged to encompass the whole earth at the end of the age. These tribulations may be related, but they are not the same. Israel's punishment is not the same as international punishment. But what God did in punishing Israel will ultimately become God's punishment upon the nations of the world. Israel merely set the stage for how God treats apostate nations that had been called by Him to be godly nations.

    I've pointed out repeatedly that Jesus himself defined the "Great Tribulation" as Israel's national punishment in the NT era, aka the Jewish Diaspora. I don't think there's any question about it among most scholars. However, modern prophecy enthusiasts focus on the endtimes rather than on historical judgments, and emphasize a final period of tribulation on earth which they confuse with the Great Tribulation Jesus mentioned. And now I'm told it's because God's punishment of Israel is not the same thing as the persecution of the saints. In the Revelation we see a lot of the persecution of the saints by the Antichrist. But we also see God's punishment of the nations of the world. Can persecution of the righteous be part of a tribulational judgment of the nations? Of course!

    A godly nation can turn against God and come under punishment. That happened to Israel a number of times in the OT era. Israel turned against its laws and against its prophets, and the result was the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. In the process, the prophets were persecuted, and the righteous marginalized. Both punishment and persecution happened within the same punishment, within the same invasions, within the same tribulation.

    When Jesus proclaimed a final punishment upon Israel in the Olivet Discourse, he was, once again, declaring a tribulation upon Israel. The Romans would invade and bring God's punishment to Israel. And in the process Christians who would warn that nation would be rejected and persecuted. Both tribulational punishment and the persecution of the righteous would happen at the same time.

    In the last times, the same scenario will unfold in the world--not just with Israel but with the whole world. Just as Israel had been called to be a godly nation, and had apostacized, was punished, and persecuted the remnant of believers, so at the end of the age Christian nations will have apostacized and will persecute the faithful Christians among them. Both tribulational judgment and the persecution of the righteous will happen together.


  • #2
    The Great Tribulation of the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls/plagues, as described in Revelation 8 to 18, will occur during the final 3 1/2 years of this Christian age.
    It is God's wrath against the ungodly and will be directed specifically to those who have taken the mark of the 'beast', aka the Anti-Christ. Revelation 14:9-11

    Jesus prophesied that the Jews would gather again as a nation, but they would never again be His chosen people. Only a remnant who have accepted Jesus now will join their Christian brethren.

    Many OT prophesies tell of their punishment:

    Jeremiah chapter 13:1-10 Jeremiah is instructed to buy a loincloth. He is then told to hide it near a river. After a long time, he retrieved it, but it was ruined.

    Jeremiah 13:11-27 Thus, I shall ruin the enormous pride of Judah, these people with stubborn hearts, who worship other gods – they will become like that cloth, no good for anything. Hosea 8:14, Jeremiah 8:5-12
    ......I bound all Israel and all Judah to Me, so that they should become a source of renown and praise to Me, but they did not listen. Isaiah 31:6-7
    ....I shall make all who live in Jerusalem drunk..... I shall show no compassion nor refrain from destroying them. Obadiah 12-16, Isaiah 22:14, Amos 2:4-5
    Pay heed, be not too proud to listen, for it is the Lord who speaks.
    Give glory to God, before the light that you look for turns to darkness.
    If in the depths you will not listen, then weep bitterly for the Lords people are carried off into captivity. [Judah conquered by Babylon and again in AD70] Ezekiel 21:14
    Say to the King and the Queen mother; take a humble seat, for your crowns have fallen. Ezekiel 21:25-27

    The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away. This is paralleled by Ezekiel 20:46-47, Isaiah 9:18-19, Jer 10:18
    Look up and see! Those people who are coming from the North.
    The Lord’s people, all true Christians, migrating to the Land. Isaiah 41:8-10

    Where is the flock that you were so proud of?
    God’s people scattered among the nations.

    What will you say when your leaders are missing? When you wonder why this has happened? It is because of your many sins. Isaiah 3:1-3
    Can a Nubian change his skin? No more can you, [Judah] do good, so accustomed are you to doing evil. Isaiah 38-9

    I will scatter you like chaff, before the desert wind. Jeremiah 33:14
    This is your lot – I have decreed this for you, because you have forgotten Me and trusted in false gods. I will bare your shame for all to see. Isaiah 3:16-26
    For your adulteries and shameful deeds – woe to you Jerusalem. How much longer will you be unclean? Nahum 1:12-15

    This is a clear prophecy about the judgement of Judah in ancient times and again, soon to happen, proved by the unfulfilled prophesies here and throughout the Bible.
    Then, the Lord’s faithful Christian people will enter the Land from the North. Isaiah 49:12 They will live there, in peace and security, to prepare for the Return of Jesus

    Comment


    • #3
      I think the great tribulation is God's judgement on the earth. Christians will be persecuted and Israel will be cleansed by a successive set of judgements. Two thirds of Israel will be killed. The remaining third will accept Jesus as Messiah and proclaim "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord" and so.....All Israel will be saved.
      Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by randyk View Post
        Synthesizing National Punishment and Christian Persecution in the Great Tribulation of Israel.
        I think this sums up what you are doing.
        You are SYNTHESIZING two SEPARATE statements of Jesus and making up your own ideology.

        Now it is possible to say that what happened to the Jews is an example for what God will do to Christians, but when Jesus declares certain things will happen to the Jews we MUST take them as being for the Jews.
        When Jesus declares certain things for the Christian we MUST take them as being for the Christian.

        Now a Jew may be a Christian and a Christian may be a Jew, but we CANNOT, and MUST NOT EVER say that because a Jew is a Christian that what is said for the Jews is to be applied to all Christians, or that because a Christian is a Jew that what is said for the Christians is to be applied to all Jews. Yet this is what your SYNTHETIC view is doing!

        Something SYNTHETIC is man-made!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          Synthesizing National Punishment and Christian Persecution in the Great Tribulation of Israel.

          I've been told the "Great Tribulation" is either Israel's Punishment or Christian Persecution--it can't be both! The Great Tribulation of the Jewish People in the NT period cannot both be national judgment and Christian persecution. Really?

          I believe the Great Tribulation, as Jesus defined it, is a national judgment against Israel which will last throughout the NT era. I also believe that tribulation will be enlarged to encompass the whole earth at the end of the age. These tribulations may be related, but they are not the same. Israel's punishment is not the same as international punishment. But what God did in punishing Israel will ultimately become God's punishment upon the nations of the world. Israel merely set the stage for how God treats apostate nations that had been called by Him to be godly nations.

          I've pointed out repeatedly that Jesus himself defined the "Great Tribulation" as Israel's national punishment in the NT era, aka the Jewish Diaspora. I don't think there's any question about it among most scholars. However, modern prophecy enthusiasts focus on the endtimes rather than on historical judgments, and emphasize a final period of tribulation on earth which they confuse with the Great Tribulation Jesus mentioned. And now I'm told it's because God's punishment of Israel is not the same thing as the persecution of the saints. In the Revelation we see a lot of the persecution of the saints by the Antichrist. But we also see God's punishment of the nations of the world. Can persecution of the righteous be part of a tribulational judgment of the nations? Of course!

          A godly nation can turn against God and come under punishment. That happened to Israel a number of times in the OT era. Israel turned against its laws and against its prophets, and the result was the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. In the process, the prophets were persecuted, and the righteous marginalized. Both punishment and persecution happened within the same punishment, within the same invasions, within the same tribulation.

          When Jesus proclaimed a final punishment upon Israel in the Olivet Discourse, he was, once again, declaring a tribulation upon Israel. The Romans would invade and bring God's punishment to Israel. And in the process Christians who would warn that nation would be rejected and persecuted. Both tribulational punishment and the persecution of the righteous would happen at the same time.

          In the last times, the same scenario will unfold in the world--not just with Israel but with the whole world. Just as Israel had been called to be a godly nation, and had apostacized, was punished, and persecuted the remnant of believers, so at the end of the age Christian nations will have apostacized and will persecute the faithful Christians among them. Both tribulational judgment and the persecution of the righteous will happen together.
          I think that you are confusing the wrath of God to those who persecute the church and the consequences of living outside of Gods will

          I believe that the great tribulation is on the saints

          I also believe that the wrath of God is on the nations who persecute the church including Israel who were the topic in the Olivit discourse. In revelation we also see that the wrath of God also comes upon the beast who persecuted the church.

          In history and in revelation we also see the results of what happens to nations that reject and live outside of Gods will.


          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by marty fox View Post

            I think that you are confusing the wrath of God to those who persecute the church and the consequences of living outside of Gods will

            I believe that the great tribulation is on the saints

            I also believe that the wrath of God is on the nations who persecute the church including Israel who were the topic in the Olivit discourse. In revelation we also see that the wrath of God also comes upon the beast who persecuted the church.

            In history and in revelation we also see the results of what happens to nations that reject and live outside of Gods will.
            I understand Marty, but this is the problem I see with your position. You admit that God's wrath comes upon both the nations and Israel in the Olivet Discourse. The passage itself refers to this Great Tribulation as a Jewish Punishment. Those are the actual words used--"Punishment." And you admit that Israel is at least part of the Punishment.

            So if you have the Great Tribulation as a Jewish Punishment, and you also have Christian Persecution among the Jews in the Early Church, then you would be arguing my position, which is that the Great Tribulation is both wrath against Israel and persecution of those in Israel who are believers.

            You simply need to visualize what this is like. Just like the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, Israel denies reality, resists the punishment of God, and then experiences the wrath of God. They go into captivity and are exiled among the nations.

            At the same time, the righteous suffer. Since the whole nation is defeated, obviously even the righteous remaining among them suffer too. Not only are they deprived of home and property, as everyone else, but they suffer the opposition of those in Israel hostile to the message of repentance. Jeremiah was persecuted as he delivered his message of repentance.

            It is no different in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus is telling Israel they need to repent. He is the righteous one Israel is rejecting and persecuting. They are defeated by the Romans and exiled. And the Jews among them who believe in Jesus are left desolate and homeless, as well, since Israel was their home as well.

            Not only so, but Jesus' disciples experienced the same rejection and persecution from the unbelieving Jewish majority as Jesus himself experienced. This wrath from God is a "Great Tribulation" for both the unbelieving majority and the righteous minority.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
              I think this sums up what you are doing.
              You are SYNTHESIZING two SEPARATE statements of Jesus and making up your own ideology.

              Now it is possible to say that what happened to the Jews is an example for what God will do to Christians, but when Jesus declares certain things will happen to the Jews we MUST take them as being for the Jews.
              When Jesus declares certain things for the Christian we MUST take them as being for the Christian.

              Now a Jew may be a Christian and a Christian may be a Jew, but we CANNOT, and MUST NOT EVER say that because a Jew is a Christian that what is said for the Jews is to be applied to all Christians, or that because a Christian is a Jew that what is said for the Christians is to be applied to all Jews. Yet this is what your SYNTHETIC view is doing!

              Something SYNTHETIC is man-made!
              The English language is man-made. So what's your point? God is, I believe, referring to 2 items with respect to His definition of the "Great Tribulation." I'm synthesizing the 2 items for you because you have separated them, thinking they are incompatible together. My "synthesis" is just an explanation.

              I do not separate Jews and Christians the way you and Dispensationalists do (I'm not saying you are a Dispensationalist--you just seem to accept their language on this). Clearly, before the cross Jesus was speaking exclusively to the *Jewish People!* As such, he was speaking to Jewish Christians only, along with non-Christian Jews, clearly separating them from non-Jewish Christians, which did not yet exist.

              So yes, there is a separation between Jewish Christians and other Christians initially, ie before the cross. Ultimately, what Jesus was saying only to Jewish Christians came to apply, in principle, to Christians in other nations who would experience the same thing as Israel once their own nations had become Christian nations.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shepherdsword View Post
                I think the great tribulation is God's judgement on the earth. Christians will be persecuted and Israel will be cleansed by a successive set of judgements. Two thirds of Israel will be killed. The remaining third will accept Jesus as Messiah and proclaim "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord" and so.....All Israel will be saved.


                I can agree with virtually all of that, although I know we have our differences. I believe the Great Tribulation was defined by Jesus as an exclusively-Jewish judgment to start with. At that time only Israel was God's people. There were no Christian nations yet.

                And so, this prophecy, which was before the cross, was still under the Law and exclusively for Israel. It was a prediction that Israel would continue to reject their Messiah and break the covenant of the Law. Only a remnant would follow him.

                As a result, national Israel would come under the wrath of God and experience an age-long "Great Tribulation." The believers among the Jews would likewise suffer this national tragedy, and suffer a measure of deprivation. But they would continue to have Christ in their heart, and would, in fact, be given opportunity to escape the 70 AD desolation.

                Later, the great tribulation that befell Israel alone applies, in principle, to Christian nations who commit apostasy against their faith. We've seen that in the West progressively over the last number of centuries. And so, similar to Israel, the prophets of doom have arisen, calling for repentance. And the Christian nations experience measured revivals and reformations, but over all refuse to repent in the whole of their societies.

                Wrath, likewise, comes upon them in the form of historical judgments. And "great tribulation" befalls them, as well. What Jesus predicted for Israel applies in principle to the Christian nations. They suffer wrath, great tribulation, and the righteous few among them are rejected and persecuted.

                I do believe that there will be an intensification of this wrath and great tribulation upon the whole world at the end of the age--basically now! And that's because sin does rise to a peak when God must bring things to a decisive end. That will be at Armageddon, and will affect not just Israel, but the whole world. That's when the great apostasy takes place under the leadership of Antichrist. He will lead formerly Christian society in Europe and elsewhere into a grand rebellion against God. And they will suffer the consequences at Christ's return.


                So if in this light you read over your statement of beliefs again, you may find we are much closer than you may realize?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                  The Great Tribulation of the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls/plagues, as described in Revelation 8 to 18, will occur during the final 3 1/2 years of this Christian age.
                  It is God's wrath against the ungodly and will be directed specifically to those who have taken the mark of the 'beast', aka the Anti-Christ. Revelation 14:9-11
                  The Great Tribulation Jesus described in Luke 21 applied only to the nation Israel. The Great Tribulation mentioned in the book of Revelation is applied to the whole world. They apply in principle the same, but refer to different entities.

                  Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                  Jesus prophesied that the Jews would gather again as a nation, but they would never again be His chosen people. Only a remnant who have accepted Jesus now will join their Christian brethren.

                  Many OT prophesies tell of their punishment:
                  Well then, we agree that Israel suffered God's wrath and entered into an age of great tribulation? That's what Luke 21 explicitly declares.

                  But the Great Tribulation at the end of the age encompasses all nations, including Israel. Like Israel the nations will have turned against God completely--not just the pagan nations, but formerly Christian nations. Like Israel turned to Rabbinic Judaism, the Christian nations will turn to Antichristianity. The result will be a great tribulation and wrath--only it will be shortlived, and not like Israel's Great Tribulation, which has continued throughout NT history.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by randyk View Post

                    I understand Marty, but this is the problem I see with your position. You admit that God's wrath comes upon both the nations and Israel in the Olivet Discourse. The passage itself refers to this Great Tribulation as a Jewish Punishment. Those are the actual words used--"Punishment." And you admit that Israel is at least part of the Punishment.

                    So if you have the Great Tribulation as a Jewish Punishment, and you also have Christian Persecution among the Jews in the Early Church, then you would be arguing my position, which is that the Great Tribulation is both wrath against Israel and persecution of those in Israel who are believers.

                    You simply need to visualize what this is like. Just like the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, Israel denies reality, resists the punishment of God, and then experiences the wrath of God. They go into captivity and are exiled among the nations.

                    At the same time, the righteous suffer. Since the whole nation is defeated, obviously even the righteous remaining among them suffer too. Not only are they deprived of home and property, as everyone else, but they suffer the opposition of those in Israel hostile to the message of repentance. Jeremiah was persecuted as he delivered his message of repentance.

                    It is no different in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus is telling Israel they need to repent. He is the righteous one Israel is rejecting and persecuting. They are defeated by the Romans and exiled. And the Jews among them who believe in Jesus are left desolate and homeless, as well, since Israel was their home as well.

                    Not only so, but Jesus' disciples experienced the same rejection and persecution from the unbelieving Jewish majority as Jesus himself experienced. This wrath from God is a "Great Tribulation" for both the unbelieving majority and the righteous minority.
                    Actually I don’t believe that at all I believe that the OD is Jesus warning the Christians to leave Jerusalem before the siege and also a warning to Israel to repent or perish. Jesus is telling the deciples what will happen to them during the Jewish persecution (which we see some of it played out in the book of Acts) but also telling them that their Jewish persecution will end and that Israel will be judged.

                    Thus I don’t see the great tribulation on Israel at all but the church but that being said there is a tribulation time on Israel under Rome but that is wrath of God and I see that as the explanation of the verses below

                    Revelation 17:16-17
                    16 The ten horns that you saw, and the beast—these will hate the prostitute and make her desolate and naked. They will consume her flesh and burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put into their mindsto carry out his purposeby makinga decision to give their royal power to the beast until the words of God are fulfilled.

                    The difference is that the persecution is not from God He warned the saints to leave so that they could spare their lives as 1.1 million Jews died in the siege and the Christians were spared. At times some Christians can suffer from the fallout of Gods wrath but the real wrath is what happens to the ungodly after death which is totally opposite for the saints. It is a honour and privilege to suffer for God

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by marty fox View Post

                      Actually I don’t believe that at all I believe that the OD is Jesus warning the Christians to leave Jerusalem before the siege and also a warning to Israel to repent or perish. Jesus is telling the deciples what will happen to them during the Jewish persecution (which we see some of it played out in the book of Acts) but also telling them that their Jewish persecution will end and that Israel will be judged.

                      Thus I don’t see the great tribulation on Israel at all but the church but that being said there is a tribulation time on Israel under Rome but that is wrath of God and I see that as the explanation of the verses below

                      Revelation 17:16-17
                      16 The ten horns that you saw, and the beast—these will hate the prostitute and make her desolate and naked. They will consume her flesh and burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put into their mindsto carry out his purposeby makinga decision to give their royal power to the beast until the words of God are fulfilled.

                      The difference is that the persecution is not from God He warned the saints to leave so that they could spare their lives as 1.1 million Jews died in the siege and the Christians were spared. At times some Christians can suffer from the fallout of Gods wrath but the real wrath is what happens to the ungodly after death which is totally opposite for the saints. It is a honour and privilege to suffer for God


                      You say you disagree with how I portrayed your position. And yet you are saying 2 things that are critical to my own position.

                      1) There is a tribulation time on Israel, the wrath of God.
                      2) The Great Tribulation is on the Church.

                      How is that any different from my own position other than you use different terms to say the same thing, and sort of limit the time frame for these things? This is exactly the same 2 truths that I define as the "Great Tribulation." And it is the very 2 things that Jesus included in his own definition of the "Great Tribulation." There would be Jewish Punishment and God's wrath upon the nation Israel. And there would be persecution against the Jews in Israel that followed Jesus. And so, both groups suffered the Roman invasion, and the succeeding Great Tribulation, which has existed all through the NT era.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by randyk View Post

                        You say you disagree with how I portrayed your position. And yet you are saying 2 things that are critical to my own position.

                        1) There is a tribulation time on Israel, the wrath of God.
                        2) The Great Tribulation is on the Church.

                        How is that any different from my own position other than you use different terms to say the same thing, and sort of limit the time frame for these things? This is exactly the same 2 truths that I define as the "Great Tribulation." And it is the very 2 things that Jesus included in his own definition of the "Great Tribulation." There would be Jewish Punishment and God's wrath upon the nation Israel. And there would be persecution against the Jews in Israel that followed Jesus. And so, both groups suffered the Roman invasion, and the succeeding Great Tribulation, which has existed all through the NT era.
                        We differ I think because

                        You believe that the great tribulation is on Israel from the first century until the end times

                        I believe that the great tribulation is on the church from the first century until the end of time

                        I believe that the tribulation of Israel also known as the wrath of God that Jesus was talking about in the OD ended in 70AD

                        You believe that it is still happening


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by marty fox View Post

                          We differ I think because

                          You believe that the great tribulation is on Israel from the first century until the end times

                          I believe that the great tribulation is on the church from the first century until the end of time

                          I believe that the tribulation of Israel also known as the wrath of God that Jesus was talking about in the OD ended in 70AD

                          You believe that it is still happening
                          I see. The whole difference is about how long the "Great Tribulation" is? I certainly believe God's wrath was poured out at 70 AD and another revolt by the Jews was put down in 135 AD. But what do you do with Jesus' claim that *after* 70 AD, the Jews would be dispersed throughout the world until the end of the times of the Gentiles? Why wouldn't you call this the "Great Tribulation" as well?

                          Luke 21.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

                          Normallly, when Israel was judged, her captivity was considered part of the judgment, along with the initial destruction of the country. For example, Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and finally defeated Israel in 586 BC, but Jeremiah considered the judgment to last 70 years. It all was a "great tribulation," or captivity, right?

                          Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

                          The entire thing was a judgment, or "punishment." Why would you limit the punishment only to the initial destruction of the city, if the punishment actually involved an age-long dispersion, or diaspora?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by randyk View Post
                            The English language is man-made. So what's your point? God is, I believe, referring to 2 items with respect to His definition of the "Great Tribulation." I'm synthesizing the 2 items for you because you have separated them, thinking they are incompatible together. My "synthesis" is just an explanation.
                            Why are you adding TWO things which God has separated?
                            Why are you trying to fit a square peg into a round hole?

                            I do not separate Jews and Christians the way you and Dispensationalists do (I'm not saying you are a Dispensationalist--you just seem to accept their language on this). Clearly, before the cross Jesus was speaking exclusively to the *Jewish People!* As such, he was speaking to Jewish Christians only, along with non-Christian Jews, clearly separating them from non-Jewish Christians, which did not yet exist.
                            As Paul separates out the Jew from the Gentile AND separates out Christian from Jew, so I think it wise to follow what the NT writers do.
                            Moreover Jess did NOT speak exclusively to the Jewish people, nor did He lump together those who follow Him and those who do not IRRESPECTIVE of whether they were Jew or Gentile.
                            When Jesus spoke about FUTURE events, He KNEW that the Holy Spirit was going to be poured out on ALL people. He KNEW that the Church, His Body would comprise people who were NOT Jews BEFORE the events of 66 - 70 AD took place.

                            So yes, there is a separation between Jewish Christians and other Christians initially, ie before the cross. Ultimately, what Jesus was saying only to Jewish Christians came to apply, in principle, to Christians in other nations who would experience the same thing as Israel once their own nations had become Christian nations.
                            BEFORE the Cross there were NO Jewish Christians. In fact the TERMINOLOGY came into use in Antioch, which was a mixed congregation.
                            And NO Jesus was NOT generalising an event which wold ONLY affect the Jews as IF that would affect other peoples. He very CLEARLY identified the Jews as undergoing Great Distress and being taken prisoner UNTIL the time of the Gentiles was at an end.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                              Why are you adding TWO things which God has separated?
                              Why are you trying to fit a square peg into a round hole?
                              As I said, it's *you* who have separated 2 things--not God! You are misconstruing what I said! God has not separated Israel's judgment and the suffering Christians would suffer among the Israelis. You have! And so I'm showing you how in God's mind these 2 items can be synthesized.

                              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                              As Paul separates out the Jew from the Gentile AND separates out Christian from Jew, so I think it wise to follow what the NT writers do.
                              God does *not* separate the Christian from the Jew! The 1st Christians were Jews!

                              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                              Moreover Jess did NOT speak exclusively to the Jewish people, nor did He lump together those who follow Him and those who do not IRRESPECTIVE of whether they were Jew or Gentile.
                              On the contrary, before the cross, while the Law was still in effect, Jesus was in fact speaking exclusively to the Jewish People, calling for judgment upon the nation because the majority had rejected him, and warning the elect who followed him what to expect.

                              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                              When Jesus spoke about FUTURE events, He KNEW that the Holy Spirit was going to be poured out on ALL people. He KNEW that the Church, His Body would comprise people who were NOT Jews BEFORE the events of 66 - 70 AD took place.
                              We both know that. It's an irrelevant point. At this point, Jesus was speaking only to the Jewish people. Gentile Christians would in the future experience what Christians in Israel would experience, particularly after nations had become Christian and then apostacize.

                              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                              BEFORE the Cross there were NO Jewish Christians.
                              You're playing semantic games. Those who followed Christ among the Jews were, in fact, Christians. They just weren't called that yet. They followed Jesus! They were Jewish believers. They didn't stop being Jewish believers after the cross. They didn't suddenly become non-Jewish believers!

                              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                              In fact the TERMINOLOGY came into use in Antioch, which was a mixed congregation.
                              And NO Jesus was NOT generalising an event which wold ONLY affect the Jews as IF that would affect other peoples. He very CLEARLY identified the Jews as undergoing Great Distress and being taken prisoner UNTIL the time of the Gentiles was at an end.
                              I have no idea what you're talking about? It certainly isn't what I've been saying!


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