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Question to Premil - Who are the survivors of Rev 20:4 to populate the millennium?

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  • Question to Premil - Who are the survivors of Rev 20:4 to populate the millennium?

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    So it says those which DIED a martyrs death live with Christ a thousand years. There is nothing to indicate apart from these above that there is some other group which did not accept the mark of the Beast and survived. Even if they did they will not live with Christ a thousand years as the text says only those which endured until the end and gave their lives will live a thousand years with Christ. The only other group then mentioned living a thousand years with Christ are the DEAD resurrected from the grave.

    Those which fail to die and survive Rev 20:4 would not have been faithful unto death and therefore no crown of life!

    Rev 2:14

    Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    Those which fail to die and survive Rev 20:4 would not have overcome the Devil and shows they loved their lives more since they remain living!.

    Rev 12:11

    And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


    No believer survives the mark of the beast and remain living on earth to populate a millennium per Rev 20:4!

    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


    Let's all stop this silliness of some literal 1000 years reign after the second coming.

    But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.


  • #2
    The people of Revelation 12:17 and 14:12.
    And all the others that have died seeking for the truth. The person now that knows the truth BIBLICAL and ignore it shall perish.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
      4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

      So it says those which DIED a martyrs death live with Christ a thousand years. There is nothing to indicate apart from these above that there is some other group which did not accept the mark of the Beast and survived. Even if they did they will not live with Christ a thousand years as the text says only those which endured until the end and gave their lives will live a thousand years with Christ. The only other group then mentioned living a thousand years with Christ are the DEAD resurrected from the grave.

      Those which fail to die and survive Rev 20:4 would not have been faithful unto death and therefore no crown of life!

      Rev 2:14

      Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

      Those which fail to die and survive Rev 20:4 would not have overcome the Devil and shows they loved their lives more since they remain living!.

      Rev 12:11

      And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


      No believer survives the mark of the beast and remain living on earth to populate a millennium per Rev 20:4!

      15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


      Let's all stop this silliness of some literal 1000 years reign after the second coming.

      But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
      Let's start with Zech 14.

      Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
      3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
      4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
      5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


      Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

      If we were to stop reading in Zech 14 once we get to verse 12, thus ignore the rest of the chapter, verse 12 gives the impression there is not one single survivor remaining which came against Jerusalem.

      First let's consider verse 5 and this part...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee, How is it possible that that does not involve the 2nd coming?
      Of course it involves the 2nd coming, which then means verse 12 is fulfilled during events involving the 2nd coming.

      If we were to read on in Zech 14, well there is the following to consider, where the timing is obviously meaning after the events of verse 2, after the Lord God has come, and all the saints with Him, and after the fulfillment of verse 12.

      Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
      17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
      18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
      19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

      But if there are no mortal survivors remaining post the 2nd coming, according to Amils, how do Amils explain verses 16-19, then? Obviously, these are not saints who put on immortality at the 2nd coming, the fact these are of the nations which came against Jerusalem, and that they are being threatened with no rain if they refuse to come up. Speaking of coming up, what does the text plainly say? It says...every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


      Obviously, in order to go up from year to year, that requires some more years post the 2nd coming in order to fulfill. Obviously, as well, it's not going to be like that forever, what is recorded in verses 16-19. Something has to put an end to it eventually. The only thing I can think of it that would put an end to this eventually are the thousand years followed by satan's little season.

      During the thousand years are when they are to go up from year to year, or else. During satan's little season is when they are deceived in thinking they can overthrow Christ and His one world government governing the planet at the time.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is a bit light-hearted response, don't take it too seriously anyone.



        The non-Christian, Holy Spirit-less, unchurched trib saints who escape the winepress of the wrath of almighty God. who are not apart of 'all men great and small'.....




        those who figure out a way to trick God and to escape these scriptures:

        Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. "

        II Thessalonians 1:3 "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe"





        and not to be forgotten, and most importantly, the pre-trib rapture cows.

        Exodus 10:26 "Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind"
        Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
        • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
        • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
        • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
        • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
          This is a bit light-hearted response, don't take it too seriously anyone.



          The non-Christian, Holy Spirit-less, unchurched trib saints who escape the winepress of the wrath of almighty God. who are not apart of 'all men great and small'.....




          those who figure out a way to trick God and to escape these scriptures:

          Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. "

          II Thessalonians 1:3 "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe"





          and not to be forgotten, and most importantly, the pre-trib rapture cows.

          Exodus 10:26 "Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind"

          Both the OT and NT are holy writ, so not just the NT. That means both testaments have to square, not contradict. If what you are proposing is correct, this contradicts Zech 14:16-19. Unless Amils can undeniably prove those verses fit in this age prior to the 2nd coming, rather than in the next age post the 2nd coming, those verses prove Amils are interpreting some of the NT incorrectly.


          Are Amils going to argue....and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee...that this doesn't even involve the 2nd coming?

          Are Amils going to argue that Zech 14:16-19 is not meaning a time post the fulfillment of verse 2 and verse 12? Are Amils going to argue that these are not mortal survivors, but instead are saints who have put on immortality at the 2nd coming? are Amils going to argue that it doesn't really require numerous years to fulfill...shall even go up from year to year?

          Comment


          • #6
            One big flaw in premillennialism is that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom. This means only Glorified Saints are there for Satan to bring against the rest of the saints in battle when he is loosed. Glorified saints in heavenly bodies fighting with glorified saints in heavenly bodies...yikes!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dave L View Post
              One big flaw in premillennialism is that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom. This means only Glorified Saints are there for Satan to bring against the rest of the saints in battle when he is loosed. Glorified saints in heavenly bodies fighting with glorified saints in heavenly bodies...yikes!
              Because....
              the resurrection of mankind (where we shed these flesh and blood bodies), occurs at the last trumpet, when the entire world becomes Christ’s kingdom.

              There is no place on earth for corruptible mortals to hide out in. All not raised and glorified are destroyed.

              All the earth is Christ’s kingdom.

              15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth

              Those who misunderstand the application and intent of 1 passage (Zech 14) should not use that misunderstanding to negate and override dozens of concise and clear NT passages that teach when Christ returns in wrath and judgment, noone can say Lord, Lord, and survive being cast into the fiery judgment, with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

              Interpreting Zech 14 to conflict with dozens of other more clear and more explicit verses that teach no mortals survive the second coming is untendable, and one of the reasons I came to reject Premillennialism years ago.

              Jesus repeatedly answers the question of what happens to the wicked at His return. Listen to Him! (he allows for no mortals to escape)
              Jesus is YHWH the eternal Great I AM.
              • Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world. if ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23
              • " I YHWH the LORD, the first, and with the last; I AM He. Thus saith YHWH the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 41:4,44:6
              • "And [the son of Man] laid his right hand upon me, saying Fear not; I AM the first and the last: I AM He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive for evermore. These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" Rev 1:17, 2:8
              • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:12

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by divaD View Post

                Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
                17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
                18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
                19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

                But if there are no mortal survivors remaining post the 2nd coming, according to Amils, how do Amils explain verses 16-19, then?
                You have made the assumption that those "left" are meant living and never die. Cannot "left" mean left and remain after the judgement as other are cast out? Yes.

                First we see those which are "left" go up a observe the FOT. This will not be the church. The church did not fight against Jerusalem nor would they be included in the group whereby their flesh is consumed. So where would be the church at this time of the second coming if only the ones left are Israel and the other group is killed?? They are previously martyred off Rev 6/Rev 13/Rev 20:4. Thus is reality for premils only mortal Israel would inherit a 1000 years. Then the saints would have to be immortal during the 1000 years. Yikes.

                Now there are two groups fighting against Jerusalem, the nations (ungodly) and Judah. Judah are the ones which will be saved and left after the dust settles of those which fought. Again is does not mean somehow all those of Judah survive death rather they are only the ones "left" ie remain after the resurrection.


                Obviously, in order to go up from year to year, that requires some more years post the 2nd coming in order to fulfill. Obviously, as well, it's not going to be like that forever, what is recorded in verses 16-19. Something has to put an end to it eventually. The only thing I can think of it that would put an end to this eventually are the thousand years followed by satan's little season.
                You are using your human logic again thinking ones in eternity cant go up year after year to observe the FOT. Why not? This is exactly what happens in eternity not 1000 years.

                14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                What commandments are they doing? Is not observing the FOT a commandment?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dave L View Post
                  One big flaw in premillennialism is that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom.
                  No scripture says that.
                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                    Question to Premil - Who are the survivors of Rev 20:4 to populate the millennium?
                    There are no "survivors" in Revelation 20:4.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ross3421 View Post


                      You are using your human logic again thinking ones in eternity cant go up year after year to observe the FOT. Why not? This is exactly what happens in eternity not 1000 years.

                      14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                      What commandments are they doing? Is not observing the FOT a commandment?

                      LOL. Well I'm human...ummm...maybe that's why I'm using human logic.


                      And you find Premil to be bizarre, and yet here you are proposing something ultra bizarre, that what is recorded in Zech 14:16-19, it will be like that for all eternity, where unsaved ones get to live on the new earth for forever. How can they not be unsaved? Would God be punishing saved immortals throughout eternity for refusing to comply? I don't think so. I doubt anyone thinks so, including you.

                      What is being depicted in Zech 14:16-19 is the ruling with a rod of iron. That doesn't continue forever. It only continues a thousand years.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                        No scripture says that.
                        “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” 1 Corinthians 15:50 (NCPB)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dave L View Post
                          “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” 1 Corinthians 15:50 (NCPB)
                          Here you are again using a TEXT out of CONTEXT and so creating a PRETEXT which is FALSE.
                          For a few verses later says:
                          1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

                          This clearly shows that a perishable body, of flesh and blood PUTS ON the imperishable spirit, and so DOES inherit the kingdom of God:
                          1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

                          You see to simply paste verses without explaining what YOU believe those verses to state, means you are taking a verse out of context and misquoting what Paul is saying.
                          Flesh and blood ALONE cannot inherit, but when flesh and blood is covered by His blood and puts on the spirit THEN it enters the kingdom of God.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            Here you are again using a TEXT out of CONTEXT and so creating a PRETEXT which is FALSE.
                            For a few verses later says:
                            1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

                            This clearly shows that a perishable body, of flesh and blood PUTS ON the imperishable spirit, and so DOES inherit the kingdom of God:
                            1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

                            You see to simply paste verses without explaining what YOU believe those verses to state, means you are taking a verse out of context and misquoting what Paul is saying.
                            Flesh and blood ALONE cannot inherit, but when flesh and blood is covered by His blood and puts on the spirit THEN it enters the kingdom of God.
                            You are forcing scripture to say what it does not say.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by divaD View Post

                              And you find Premil to be bizarre, and yet here you are proposing something ultra bizarre, that what is recorded in Zech 14:16-19, it will be like that for all eternity, where unsaved ones get to live on the new earth for forever. How can they not be unsaved?
                              Do you not consider procreation in eternity?

                              EZ 37:26

                              Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

                              Nothing above shows us that this multiplying is temporal rather it is everlasting and at a when his sanctuary in in their midst EVERMORE.

                              Thus with procreation in eternity then the offspring will need to come to the Lord. Much like today those born will have to make a choice the main difference in eternity God sits on the throne not some earthly man. God will rule with a rod of iron in eternity.

                              Now Revelation actually supports that there are those making decisions for Christ in eternity while others dont.

                              14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                              So as mentioned before what commandment are they doing? Would not observing the FOT year after year be one of them? Yes.

                              If all are saved why would anyone need to take of the tree of life? Why would the nations need healing from the tree if all are already healed and never die?

                              2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

                              And now we see those which are not doing the commandments in eternity.

                              15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                              I understand we all have been programmed to believe that eternity is a certain way and everyone lives happily ever after.. Well this is true for those saints which live inside the city with no death ect...however it will be a world as today outside the gates of the city whereby God will have to rule will a rod of iron to those born in eternity which chose not to serve the Lord.. So you see the same things occurring in a temporal 1000 years, I see them happening forever.


                              Bizarre only in the sense that it goes against what we have been told and what our human mind accepts..

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