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Where were the angels cast to in Rev 12? Earth or Hell?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

    No scripture supports that hell has anything to do with the waters of the seas/oceans. The fact that the dead come out of the sea and out of hell shows they are two different places.
    Yes they are two different places but the dead can come out from both Hell and the sea if the sea is sitting on top of Hell. Do you at least grasp what I am saying?

    ^
    I Sea
    I Earth
    I Hell


    So the dead (or evil spirits) which are coming from out of Hell are also coming out from (thru) the earth and sea........


    13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,

    So this beast is coming up from Hell

    11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;

    And this beast is coming up from Hell.


    Here is a verse which shows this......the verse is saying those which are in the sea are under the earth.

    Rev 5:13

    And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea,

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    • #17
      Yes they are two different places but the dead can come out from both Hell and the sea if the sea is sitting on top of Hell. Do you at least grasp what I am saying?
      I grasp it because it is simplistic but find that it is ridiculous in nature and concept.

      Hell is not in the waters and nothing supports that it is. BTW, the waters the first beast rises from is not actual water but people as water symbolizes people.

      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post


        Hell is not in the waters and nothing supports that it is.
        Again Iam not saying hell is IN the waters. The sea is on top of the earth wherein lies Hell below.

        13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,

        8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,


        BTW, the waters the first beast rises from is not actual water but people as water symbolizes people.
        So is that why he is standing on the sand ????? Would not the presence of sand indicate that the sea adjacent is really the sea off shore!!!!!!


        John is not standing on the sand for the sea to represent people....!!!!!!

        13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, (sea of water not people).


        Now your alluding to rev 17 for support. But the verse says "waters" not "sea" big difference.






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        • #19
          13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, (sea of water not people).


          Now your alluding to rev 17 for support. But the verse says "waters" not "sea" big difference.

          It's the same thing.

          Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

          Does this mean the Oceans and seas disappear or can it have a figurative meaning?

          Jer 51:42 The sea is come up upon Babylon: she is covered with the multitude of the waves thereof.

          Barnes:

          "By a grand metaphor the invading army is compared to the sea."

          Eze 26:3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

          In a figurative sense a "sea" can represent restless masses of people, usually dangerous and lawless ie: fallen man.


          Isa 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.


          Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
          Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
          Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

          Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

          So, no more sea can easily be a reference that wicked mankind is no more and that is perfect placement since the end of Revelation 20 showed the judgment and final punishment for the unsaved. "no more sea" simply means there is no more of the wicked in the world.

          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

            So, no more sea can easily be a reference that wicked mankind is no more and that is perfect placement since the end of Revelation 20 showed the judgment and final punishment for the unsaved. "no more sea" simply means there is no more of the wicked in the world.
            Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

            If we look at the following verse we see heaven and earth which are places. Thus "sea" here is a place not peoples.

            This is supported by the following verse which shows "sea" and the "dead" (wicked) two separate groups


            Rev 20;13
            And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;

            Sea = place
            Dead = Wicked

            The sea thats being referenced is a specific sea, a sea in which hell lies beneath. This is the sea in which John was looking over when he was standing on the sand of this sea. The sea is the Aegean sea. If you notice the circular shape of this sea area, I believe at one time it was a perfect circle, a point within a bigger circle when the land mass was one before the flood (Pangea). This sea was the center of the world in which civilization was encamped. There was a waterway which went thru the pillars of Hercules then out to the great sea. You can read these accounts by Plato and others.







            Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

            So then we can understand the verse. The sea which is a place will give up the dead whereby Hell beneath will deliver these dead.

            Now let's go back to the other verse.

            Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

            So when there is a new earth this sea mass will be no more, closed up as hell beneath has been cast into the LOF.


            Pretty simple, right?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
              Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
              If we look at the following verse we see heaven and earth which are places. Thus "sea" here is a place not peoples.
              Is the New Heaven a place? And is the New Earth a place?
              Earth and Heaven are indeed places, but also can be representative of other things.
              Is the sea a place?
              Well the first problem is that there is NOT a single sea on the earth - instead there are multiple seas and oceans.
              When scripture speaks of the Sea in the singular it seems to be referencing a SPECIFIC sea such as the Mediterrannean.
              Notice in Genesis 1:
              Gen 1:10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas.
              Here we have it as a PLURAL not in the singular.
              This means the word is being used figuratively and NOT literally.
              However when we consider the CONTEXT of Rev 21 which is the START of the MK and the END of the nations, so it makes CONTEXTUAL sense for this to be referring to the end of nations - there was no more sea - for all kingdoms have now become the kingdom of the Lord as Rev 11:15 declared!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                However when we consider the CONTEXT of Rev 21 which is the START of the MK and the END of the nations, so it makes CONTEXTUAL sense for this to be referring to the end of nations - there was no more sea - for all kingdoms have now become the kingdom of the Lord as Rev 11:15 declared!
                Would not the "sea" in chapter 21 be the same "sea" in 22? Yes.

                Rev 21
                13
                And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


                Rev 22
                1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


                And as I pointed out "sea" and the people (dead) are separate groups as the "sea" gives up the (dead) nations. Thus no more sea means specifically a place which involves the (dead) nations. Note the sea itself will no longer exist as it was the location place involved for holding the dead until judgement. After judgement these nations are then taken from this location and thrown into the LOF. Thus the "sea" is no longer needed. Though it is the end of the nations they still exist but now in the LOF.

                Just to clarify the "sea" is a place (area) wherein the wicked dead are held until judgement. This "sea" includes the place called Hell.

                Sea = specific location on earth
                Earth = which is below this sea water
                Hell = which is below the earth which is below this sea area.


                ​​​​​​​As for Rev 21 and beyond being the MK, well that's a whole other story. ....

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                  Would not the "sea" in chapter 21 be the same "sea" in 22? Yes.
                  Rev 21
                  13
                  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
                  Rev 22
                  1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
                  No reason it must be the same sea. By your logic then the sea in Rev 21 must be the sea mentioned earlier in Revelation:
                  Rev 4:6 and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind...
                  However I don't see it as being that sea.
                  The CONTEXT of the passage itself tells us the meaning.
                  Is there no more sea - meaning a place of water in the NHNE?
                  Nope, for we have a river flowing out of the NJ and according to Ezekiel 47 it flows into the sea:
                  Eze 47:8 And he said to me, “This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, and enters the sea; when the water flows into the sea, the water will become fresh.

                  Where a river flows to is called a sea. We must be careful not to latch onto the same word mentioned elsewhere, but consider the implications and what we are claiming. In part this is also reflected in what you understand about the NHNE - for if you think the old earth is entirely gone, then you may consider a completely new and changed world. However IF you see it in terms of a changed world, like the world BEFORE the flood and the world AFTER the flood THEN this points to there being a sea(s) full of water.
                  Also note that in my understanding Rev 21 & 22 occurs BEFORE Rev 20:13, so this shows we must have some sort of sea in order for the dead to be raised from it in Rev 20:13.
                  Rev 21 then speaks of the sea of nations, whilst Rev 20:13 may be referring to a watery sea.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                    The CONTEXT of the passage itself tells us the meaning.
                    Is there no more sea - meaning a place of water in the NHNE?
                    Nope, for we have a river flowing out of the NJ and according to Ezekiel 47 it flows into the sea:
                    Eze 47:8 And he said to me, “This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, and enters the sea; when the water flows into the sea, the water will become fresh
                    .

                    It says there is no more sea, singular, not seas plural. So we are speaking of a certain sea not all seas. Remember what you stated?

                    Well the first problem is that there is NOT a single sea on the earth - instead there are multiple seas and oceans.
                    When scripture speaks of the Sea in the singular it seems to be referencing a SPECIFIC sea.
                    Notice in Genesis 1:
                    Gen 1:10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas.
                    Here we have it as a PLURAL not in the singular.
                    So there are definitely seas in eternity. Ez 47, 48 shows us there is a great sea and a east sea.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                      .It says there is no more sea, singular, not seas plural. So we are speaking of a certain sea not all seas. Remember what you stated?
                      Correct. So which sea is no more? It is the sea which refers to the kingdoms of the world.

                      So there are definitely seas in eternity. Ez 47, 48 shows us there is a great sea and a east sea.
                      If we consider the world BEFORE God spoke we have this:
                      Gen 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
                      So the world is a watery place and UNLESS God total removes every single atom of this world and creates a brand new world with nothing resembling or being part of this present world, then there will definitely be seas.
                      Some do have the mistaken notion that this is what God will do.
                      However that does NOT match what God did with the Old earth when He sent the flood. I understand that the New earth therefore will be of the old but changed as the old was changed with the present.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                        Correct. So which sea is no more?
                        The sea which brings forth the dead since afterwards there will be no more dead to bring forth thus no more need for this sea.

                        13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


                        It is the sea which refers to the kingdoms of the world.
                        again......the "dead" which the sea brings forth would refer to the (wicked dead) kingdoms of the world. The sea is a place wherein these dead are located.



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