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Premill Trouble Passages (copied from the Rod of Iron thread)

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  • Premill Trouble Passages (copied from the Rod of Iron thread)

    Originally posted by divaD View Post

    Except none of this can work without there being these mortals you don't think should be there. Who would it be that is deceived after the thousand years? It couldn't possibly mean saints who already put on immortality at the last trump. If there is indeed a thousand years after the 2nd coming, it has to consist of non saints in order to fulfill satan's little season after the thousand years. This is one reason I adamantly disagreed with WPM in the past when he was still posting here, when he was insisting that early Chiliasts believed in a millennium like you are proposing here. That these early Chiliasts believed satan will already be in the LOF at the 2nd coming, but that there is still a thousand year period that follows, which then tears satan's little season out of Rev 20 entirely. Not to mention, Rev 20 makes it crystal clear, satan is cast into the LOF after the thousand years, not before the thousand years. I don't know of a single person today that would claim satan is cast into the LOF before the thousand years rather than after. Yet WPM insisted that the early Chiliasts did just that. And he is still insisting this as we speak, the fact he started a thread about this very same subject just recently on another board he and I are both members of.
    Right it doesnt fit.

    Amill has to account for why Rev 20 spans the NT era and is longer than 1000 literal years, and why the GWT is not a literal 1000 years after Christs return.
    Amill has to also explain why Zech 14 is either not the 2nd coming, and/or if it is, how are the sinners explained.
    Amill also has to account for Isa 65:20’s 100 year old sinner.
    To some premillers, Amill also has to account for Ezek 40-48 not being after the 2nd advent.
    Those I believe are the most troublesome passages for Amill.
    If there are others you see more weighty, please share.


    Premill from my observation though, has many more conflicted passages, especially many teachings of Jesus Himself, that teach no sinners survive the 2nd coming.

    If you would like me to carefully share those, so you can see the weight of their arguement, I will be happy to.



  • #2
    This thread also spawned off of a conversation with divaD from the Rod of Iron thread (here).

    It has a sister thread, addressing the Amill Trouble Passages (here).

    Here are the most troubling Premill passages I find.

    The Premill view uses a couple of scriptures interpreted a certain way, to attempt to convince the reader, that when Christ comes from Heaven in flaming fire in Judgement, that some sinners and/or their children will survive. Some sinners will escape. Some sinners will continue living onward on the Earth, so that billions and billions of sinners supposedly under Christ earthly kingdom reign will revolt against Him a thousand years later.

    I am limiting my focus here, to the Premill notion, that there will be a continuation of 1000 more years of mortal and sinful existence upon the earth AFTER the 2nd Advent.

    If you are adamantly Premill in your view, this study likely won’t benefit you. But if you have questions, or some things just don’t make sense, never made sense, still cause a struggle…this study might benefit you. I hope it does someone.

    My format will be to present a passage that I believe is a 2nd Advent passage, that refutes the idea of mortal sinners continuing to exist on the Earth, AFTER the 2nd Advent.

    My approach hereafter to each item will be to avoid adding my personal commentary, and allow the verses themselves to bear the weight of the argument.

    Each question should ask the question....does this verse allow or disallow the notion of mortal sinners existing beyond the 2nd Advent?

    I would also ask you to give particular listen to Jesus' own teaching specifically, what is the most clear and natural understanding Jesus Himself is saying to you?

    Now, enough of my preface, -- on to the study of the Scriptures and to what they have to say.






    Example 1: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Job 14:12 KJV "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands."

    Job 19:25 DRB “For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and in the last day I shall rise out of the earth. And I shall be clothed again with my skin, and in my flesh I will see my God. Whom I myself shall see, and my eyes shall behold”



    Example 2: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Isaiah 25:5 HCSB “As the shade of a cloud cools the heat of the day, so He silences the song of the violent. The Lord of Hosts will prepare a feast for all the peoples on this mountain— a feast of aged wine, choice meat, finely aged wine. On this mountain He will destroy the burial shroud, the shroud over all the peoples, the sheet covering all the nations; He will destroy death forever. The Lord God will wipe away the tears from every face and remove His people’s disgrace from the whole earth, for the Lord has spoken.”

    Isaiah 26:19 KJV “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For,
    behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that daythe LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.”




    Example 3: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Psalms 49:15 KJV “God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased; For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him. Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself. He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish. The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined. Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judgehis people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.”




    Example 4: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Daniel 2:1 NIV “There will be a time of distresssuch as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”



    Example 5: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Matthew 13:24 KJV “Another parable put Jesus forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvestI will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. “



    Example 6: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Matthew 13:47 KJV “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”




    Example 7: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Matthew 25:5 KJV “While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut

    Matthew 7:21 KJV “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
    Luke 13:28 “There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.”





    Example 8: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Matthew 25:13 KJV Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



    Example 9: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Matthew 25:31 KJV “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”



    Example 10: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Luke 17:24 NIV “For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lot’s wife! Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [Taken] Where, Lord? they asked. He replied, Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”



    Example 11: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    John 5:26 “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just

    John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Acts 17:31 “he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world


    Romans 2:16 “In the day when God shall judgethe secrets of men by Jesus Christ”




    Example 12: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Acts 3:19 KJV “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”




    Example 13: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Acts 24:15 KJV And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


    Example 14: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Romans 2:2 KJV “But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil




    Example 15: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Romans 8:17 KJV “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealedin us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”




    Example 16: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Romans 14:10 KJV “we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”




    Example 17: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Hebrews 10:24 KJV “And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”





    Example 18: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    2 Peter 2:9 KJV “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:”





    Example 19: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    I Corinthians 15:21 KJV “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”

    I Corinthians 15:52 KJV “for
    the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”




    Example 20: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    I Thessalonians 5:2;23 KJV “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”




    Example 21: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    2 Thessalonians 1:7 KJV“when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall cometo be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”


    2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJV “then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth”






    Example 22: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    2 Timothy 4:1;8 CEV When Christ Jesus comes as king, he will be the judge of everyone, whether they are living or dead. a crown will be given to me for pleasing the Lord. He judges fairly, and on the day of judgmenthe will give a crown to me and to everyone else who wants him to appear.




    Example 23: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Hebrews 10:25 KJV “exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”




    Example 24: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    2 Peter 3:3 KJV “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

    “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?”




    Example 25: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Jude 1:5 KJV “I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

    Jude 1:11 CEV "They have also rebelled against God, just as Korah did. Because of all this, they will be destroyed. These people are filthy minded, and by their shameful and selfish actions they spoil the meals you eat together. They are like clouds blown along by the wind, but never bringing any rain. They are like leafless trees, uprooted and dead, and unable to produce fruit. Their shameful deeds show up like foam on wild ocean waves. They are like wandering stars forever doomed to the darkest pits of hell. Enoch was the seventh person after Adam, and he was talking about these people when he said: Look!
    The Lord is coming with thousands and thousands of holy angels to judge everyone. He will punish all those ungodly people for all the evil things they have done."




    Example 26: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Revelation 2:16 KJV “Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”

    Revelation 3:3 KJV “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”




    Example 27: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Revelation 6:12 KJV “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”




    Example 28: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Revelation 10:6, 11:15 KJV “by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”





    Example 29: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Revelation 14:14 KJV “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.





    Example 30: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Revelation 16:14 KJV “to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven”





    Example 31: No Mortal sinners surviving the 2nd Advent
    Revelation 19:11; 21 KJV “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

    Comment


    • #3
      David T,

      I read all 31 examples and find that not a single one is evidence that no mortals survive the second coming and it is the last one that proves without a doubt that many will be alive passed the second advent.

      Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


      Here rule/poimaino¯ is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo¯ is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming and slaying. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.
      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
        [SIZE=12px][FONT=Arial]This thread also spawned off of a conversation with divaD from the Rod of Iron thread (here).

        It has a sister thread, addressing the Amill Trouble Passages (here).

        Here are the most troubling Premill passages I find.

        The Premill view uses a couple of scriptures interpreted a certain way, to attempt to convince the reader, that when Christ comes from Heaven in flaming fire in Judgement, that some sinners and/or their children will survive. Some sinners will escape. Some sinners will continue living onward on the Earth, so that billions and billions of sinners supposedly under Christ earthly kingdom reign will revolt against Him a thousand years later.

        I am limiting my focus here, to the Premill notion, that there will be a continuation of 1000 more years of mortal and sinful existence upon the earth AFTER the 2nd Advent.

        If you are adamantly Premill in your view, this study likely won’t benefit you. But if you have questions, or some things just don’t make sense, never made sense, still cause a struggle…this study might benefit you. I hope it does someone.

        My format will be to present a passage that I believe is a 2nd Advent passage, that refutes the idea of mortal sinners continuing to exist on the Earth, AFTER the 2nd Advent.

        My approach hereafter to each item will be to avoid adding my personal commentary, and allow the verses themselves to bear the weight of the argument.

        Each question should ask the question....does this verse allow or disallow the notion of mortal sinners existing beyond the 2nd Advent?

        I would also ask you to give particular listen to Jesus' own teaching specifically, what is the most clear and natural understanding Jesus Himself is saying to you?

        Now, enough of my preface, -- on to the study of the Scriptures and to what they have to say.
        David,

        All I can say again is wow and thanks for all the scriptures. I really am trying to understand Revelation...but the Lord keeps having me back up that we do not understand Satan nor humans. It is almost like this is where people fail to see. So I am back to Genesis now haha

        Your verses did bring these to mind...and of course to me seeing your post makes me wonder if since Jesus said he was in the Father's throne Re 3:21 that we actually don't see the Lord come till Re 20:11 when we see the throne and him sitting upon it.

        I do not know this though yet...so must go where the Lord leads me in this study. He has also (which I did not know before) had me go find the Aramaic bible! Haha I was like wow I didn't even know one existed...but found out that our bibles were interpreted from the Greek not from Aramaic which was the language at the time. I never knew this...so there are times I am led to look up the NT there!!

        Just in case anyone else is interested here is that link:

        https://www.prodiscoveries.com/images/stories/BIBLE/the%20original%20aramaic%20new%20testament%20in%20 plain%20english.pdf

        Anyway thanks for this I will also bookmark your post for my study!



        Comment


        • #5
          At that time, Aramaic was the common spoken tongue of Judea.
          Hebrew was only used in synogogue scripture reading, kinda like how some catholic priests only read scrpture in Latin.
          The common written language and language of commerce was Greek.
          It has been well established that when Jesus or the NT writers are quoting from the OT scriptures, they did not quote from the Masoretic Hebrew Tanahk, but rather from the Greek Septuagint (LXX) version.
          Latin had not yet supplanted Greek, across the empire, and would not for a few centuries.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
            At that time, Aramaic was the common spoken tongue of Judea.
            Hebrew was only used in synogogue scripture reading, kinda like how some catholic priests only read scrpture in Latin.
            The common written language and language of commerce was Greek.
            It has been well established that when Jesus or the NT writers are quoting from the OT scriptures, they did not quote from the Masoretic Hebrew Tanahk, but rather from the Greek Septuagint (LXX) version.
            Latin had not yet supplanted Greek, across the empire, and would not for a few centuries.
            Yes a few years ago I did get the book of Matthew the oldest and only original NT written in Hebrew that I found... that I did get years ago... but the full NT in Aramaic I never did see.

            David,
            I searched this and see there are different opinions could you post me on the Greek you have... I did find this in US library for Aramaic
            https://www.aent.org/aramaic-new-testament-time-bomb/
            Last edited by kyCyd; Oct 15 2020, 02:04 PM. Reason: searched what was said

            Comment


            • #7
              Which of your 31 passages actually do you think show no mortals surviving?
              They only show this IF you have the GWToJ occurring AT THE SAME TIME as Jesus' return.
              IOW at the time of judgment you do have statements which show people are destroyed. However what they fail to show is that the judgement occurs at the SAME TIME as His return.
              What you are doing is cobbling together verses from different places which use similar language to try to present a picture of it all happening at the same time. This is known as eisegesis.
              A few passages do suggest that the events may occur at the SAME time, but there are plenty of others which show this is not the case.
              If you could show an actual workable CHRONOLOGY of how the wicked are destroyed and judged and destroyed ALL AT THE SAME TIME then you may have a basis for Amil being correct. Unfortunately none of these passages show what you are claiming EXCEPT through the weight of many verses being quoted regardless of CONTEXT.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                Which of your 31 passages actually do you think show no mortals surviving?
                Here let me give you a verses said by God... David has verses stated by God... you however fail to even learn the difference in words of scriptures.

                Exodus 33:20-23 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                  Here let me give you a verses said by God... David has verses stated by God... you however fail to even learn the difference in words of scriptures.
                  Exodus 33:20-23 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
                  You make TWO errors:
                  1) ALL scripture is God breathed as Paul noted.
                  2) IF no man can see Him and live then how did Adam see Him AFTER he had sinned? How did God speak with Cain? You see we love to take one verse and then build our edifice on that one verse.
                  What else are we told about Moses?
                  Exo 24:9 Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up,
                  Exo 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
                  Exo 24:11 And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.

                  How about this verse:
                  Exo 33:11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

                  You see IF we take a SINGLE verse out of CONTEXT then we can start to build all sorts of theologies which lead us all sorts of directions.

                  Exo 34:29 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand as he came down from the mountain, Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because he had been talking with God.
                  Exo 34:30 Aaron and all the people of Israel saw Moses, and behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.
                  Exo 34:31 But Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the leaders of the congregation returned to him, and Moses talked with them.
                  Exo 34:32 Afterward all the people of Israel came near, and he commanded them all that the LORD had spoken with him in Mount Sinai.
                  Exo 34:33 And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face.
                  Exo 34:34 Whenever Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he would remove the veil, until he came out. And when he came out and told the people of Israel what he was commanded,
                  Exo 34:35 the people of Israel would see the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face was shining. And Moses would put the veil over his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

                  What these verses point out is that Moses met with God and spoke with Him face to face. This caused the skin of Moses' face to shine.

                  We find that we have idioms used in speech, such as that of speaking "face to face", yet was this a LITERAL face of God, an anthropomorphic visitation?
                  What about seeing God's face would cause a man to die? The clue is in the verse in regards to the GLORY of God.
                  It is not seeing God face to face which kills, but the fullness of WHO God is, His GLORY which kills.
                  This was NOT seen when Jesus was on earth because He emptied Himself - especially of GLORY.

                  However Peter later wrote:
                  2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
                  2Pe 1:17 For when he received honour and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
                  2Pe 1:18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.

                  It therefore remains true that NONE of the verses so far presented actually show no mortals surviving when Jesus comes.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post

                    1) ALL scripture is God breathed as Paul noted..
                    I'm sorry but your words are wasted on me so I will not argue... when you don't even know the difference between God and man and what the scriptures were to Paul that he is referring to, what truth do you have?...it is the OT. We will be judged by Jesus words.. I suggest you get them inside you, Paul is not God, I follow Jesus now He is God.

                    John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day




                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                      I'm sorry but your words are wasted on me so I will not argue... when you don't even know the difference between God and man and what the scriptures were to Paul that he is referring to, what truth do you have?...it is the OT. We will be judged by Jesus words.. I suggest you get them inside you, Paul is not God, I follow Jesus now He is God.

                      John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day
                      How do you KNOW the words you have quoted from John were the ACTUAL words Jesus spoke?
                      This is not really part of ETC discussion EXCEPT to note that we ACCEPT that John wrote the words as directed by God. This is the TRUTH for ALL of scripture. This does not mean each portion is performing the same function.
                      I agree Paul is NOT God, nor was John. However BOTH bring us the words of God. This is what God breathed means.
                      You seem to accept my second point about CONTEXT.

                      You put your post in response to my post in regards the OP, which is about whether there are any scriptures which cause Premil any problems - and specifically whether any mortals survive Jesus' Second Coming. There are NO WORDS of God which say "no mortals will survive Jesus' Second Coming." If you do have such scripture please do post it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There are NO WORDS of God which say "no mortals will survive Jesus' Second Coming." If you do have such scripture please do post it.
                        There is nothing plus we have Christ's own words to prove people are alive after the second coming because part of the second coming is to come to rule people after the killing is done:


                        Jesus himself in Revelation 19 says there are people who will be ruled over and he uses the future tense of the verb to indicate this rule happens AFTER the battle of Armageddon just as Premill teaches.

                        Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense) the nations: and he shall rule (Future tense) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (Present tense) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                          How do you KNOW the words you have quoted from John were the ACTUAL words Jesus spoke?
                          I will address this as you bring up a good point and I believe the Lord desires you to understand the difference. He loves you and so do I, I prayed for you last night.
                          John was with the Lord and heard all His teaching wrote the words He spoke. What is the Holy Spirit for?

                          John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

                          By having Jesus words in you...whenever you read or hear something that doesn't line up with Jesus words...His words do come to you. This is why I urge you to get His words in you first. This is why Jesus said this:

                          Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

                          Now lets look at Paul... all I am asking you to do is believe Pauls words. You are so worried about context you fail to see what Paul is telling you about his words...How many times does he need to tell you these things for you to understand the difference?

                          2 Corinthians 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

                          2 Corinthians 8:10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.

                          1 Corinthians 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

                          1 Corinthians 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

                          I can get advice from anyone...my desire is to know what God thinks. The Lords words will come to you OT or NT on anything if they are in you.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                            I will address this as you bring up a good point and I believe the Lord desires you to understand the difference. He loves you and so do I, I prayed for you last night.
                            John was with the Lord and heard all His teaching wrote the words He spoke. What is the Holy Spirit for?

                            John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
                            So you agree that we KNOW the words BECAUSE of God's Spirit, which He sent to us.
                            The point Paul made, and which I am not sure you understood is this:
                            2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
                            2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

                            IOW IF it is part of the Word of God, regardless of whether it was a DIRECT quote of God or NOT it is BREATHED out by God.
                            Now the part you may not follow is this:
                            In 2 Tim 3:16 it LITERALL says - All scripture is θεοπνευστος.
                            This word θεοπνευστος is made up of TWO parts Theos which means God, and a derivative of pneuma which means breathe and is also the word used in the Bible for the Holy Spirit. For example:
                            Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

                            IOW Paul is saying ALL of scripture IS of God's Spirit - for the purposes stated.

                            Now as for your quotes from Paul IF you remove CONTEXT then they become PRETEXTS and meaningless.
                            However WHEN we read them IN CONTEXT then we find that the words of Paul that are recorded are STILL God-breathed.
                            Where you are in error is that you make the assumption BECAUSE it is God-breathed SO you must do it.
                            However what God says to one person can be different to what He says to another. We are not called to simply follow the commands, but to have a relationship WITH the Commander and so understand what He wants.

                            God gave the Church in Corinth Paul to bring knowledge of Him AND to bring advice - for WE are being built together AS His body.
                            Yes we grow into the Head, but that does not mean that because I am a hand that the foot is unimportant or that what God has revealed to the foot is of no value to me.

                            Getting back to the OP - there are ZERO words DIRECTLY spoken by God which say that no mortals will survive His return. Therefore this discussion doesn't make any difference to the point raised.
                            However based on what the writers of scripture wrote AS INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit (a tautology) to write we find that there ARE survivors AFTER Jesus' return, and this based on what God said to Zechariah for one:
                            Zec 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

                            God said it will be so, and so I take the Word which He gave to Zechariah as being TRUE.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by forhisglory
                              Getting back to the OP - there are ZERO words DIRECTLY spoken by God which say that no mortals will survive His return. Therefore this discussion doesn't make any difference to the point raised.
                              However based on what the writers of scripture wrote AS INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit (a tautology) to write we find that there ARE survivors AFTER Jesus' return, and this based on what God said to Zechariah for one:
                              Zec 14:16
                              And Premillennialist like you who cannot see the forrest of verses that support no wicked survives the 2nd coming from all the verses I gave, for the trees of cherry-picking one verse and forcing a reading on it that conflicts with all the dozens of other verses, is why this thread isnt to sway you.
                              Your mind is set, and cannot consider any view different than your own.

                              This post is not for you, as stated, because you cannot see from each verse, why all the wicked are destroyed at Christs return, when He raises the dead from the grave.

                              Those who arent so locked into a view, nor an adamant interpretation of 1 lone verse, will find the above verses beneficial, and those believers are who this thread was made for.

                              Comment

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