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A major problem with the man child in Rev 12 being Christ

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  • #16
    There are however TWO women in Rev 12 - the woman in heaven and the woman on earth.
    No, it's one woman who John saw as a great wonder in heaven and later sees her give birth then flee into the wilderness. It's not a literal woman IMO.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    • #17
      These characteristics can not relate to a physical woman however they can better relate to a city. Are not cities flooded?
      The flood never reached the woman so your point makes no sense. The woman also fled and cities can't do that. The woman symbolizes people, Christ's people of whom he came from (a symbolic birth).
      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

        The woman also fled and cities can't do that. The woman symbolizes people, Christ's people of whom he came from (a symbolic birth).
        So people flee heaven?

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        • #19
          So people flee heaven?
          It was a vision seen in heaven. The woman/people weren't literally in heaven anymore than they had literal suns around the head and the moon under the feet.

          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
            So who is this earthly woman? When has this happened in the past? Surely you dont think this is Mary?

            And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
            that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place,
            where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
            And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman,
            And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood

            These characteristics can not relate to a physical woman however they can better relate to a city. Are not cities flooded?

            Clearly Revelation itself gives us interpretation to what a woman can be....
            18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
            So equating the woman to a city is founded on scripture. So why can't you accept that the woman is a city?
            So a city can be given wings but a person can't?
            Your claim about one but not the other doesn't work.
            If we look at the usage of wings in prophecy, then we have beasts having wings in Daniel, and sometimes those wings are removed.
            How long do you think Mary (and Joseph and Jesus) were in Egypt?

            However let's take the other view that the woman represents Israel and that the wings are given AFTER the man child ascends to heaven THEN we have a period of 1260 days which relates to what?

            You see there are TWO separate events seen in Rev 12.
            The first has Satan standing in front of the woman, but the second has Satan flung to the earth (IOW not his choice) and this taking place AFTER a war in heaven.

            I personally have no problem with the woman representing a people - for we see this throughout scripture - but I also see that we are told there is a SIGN, and in scripture the SIGN is spoken about in regards to the LITERAL birth of a child.
            This is why Revelation uses pictures because they speak of more than one thing, yet which are intertwined.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
              I personally have no problem with the woman representing a people - for we see this throughout scripture - .
              Can you provide one verse?

              I have these verses showing a woman is a city....

              Rev 17

              18
              And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

              Rev 21

              2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

              Lam

              1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!

              17 Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the Lord hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them.



              So you can't entertain the woman in Rev 12 is a city?


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              • #22
                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                It was a vision seen in heaven. The woman/people weren't literally in heaven anymore than they had literal suns around the head and the moon under the feet.
                Well the sun and moon are literal. Today there is an actual city somewhere in the heavens which whereby would be in the midst of the sun and moon. ....the crown of 12 stars are the 12 sons of Jacob whom were resurrected at the cross.

                Likewise today in the heavens there is the dragon (Satan) and his government.

                Both come crashing down to earth, the dragon will then subdue this woman in the end and marry her as seen in Rev 17.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                  4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
                  5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

                  Okay so verse 5 if you believe which most do that the man child is Christ occurs in the first century but then we are to believe that verse 6 still has yet to occur?.

                  6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

                  Are we to think the woman is currently in heaven standing in front of the dragon since the cross waiting to flee into the wilderness? Would not verse 6 occur right after verse 5 and not thousands of years between. Are we to believe there is this big gap between verses? I think not.

                  No the man child is the nation of Israel as stated only elsewhere in IS 66. Furthermore this man child "was" to rule. Christ WILL rule. Israel was to rule but due to their disobedience they will no longer rule the earth. The woman in Rev 12 is Zion not Mary LOL..

                  7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
                  8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.


                  EZ 37 shows us the nations being born in a day. Dry bones.

                  10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
                  11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
                  12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
                  13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
                  14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.


                  Rev 14 shows the man child the remnant of Israel taken up to the throne.

                  14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
                  2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
                  3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
                  4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
                  Ok sorry but have to ask...I was not studying this but since I did look up signs in what I was studying.. Rev 12:1-2 seems to be the sign of Jesus birth in what I found.

                  http://www.believerlinks.com/cortright/revsign.htm

                  The nation Israel was born on Passover Ex 12

                  Why couldn't it be Mary and being sent to the wilderness could have been when the Lord sent them to Egypt...as the killing of the children that happened?? Just asking.







                  Give Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) the truth with scriptures. Jesus is Jehovah, the Aramaic to English Translation NT of Bible is clear. For a copy of it visit or send them to http://jwjesusisjehovah.com

                  If you know any Muslims seeking truth about Isa Al-Masih (Messiah) send them here
                  Isa Al-Masih Truth

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                  • #24
                    Both come crashing down to earth, the dragon will then subdue this woman in the end and marry her as seen in Rev 17.
                    God protects the woman from the dragon. He unable to subdue her nor do they marry.

                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                      God protects the woman from the dragon. He unable to subdue her nor do they marry.
                      Only for 3.5 years.... after which we see Rev 17. There is still time remaining after the 1260 days as we see in Rev 11 after these days the pit up from the pit kills the 2W then he goes and marries the woman.

                      14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

                      3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.


                      Clearly above the dragon (7 heads/10 horns) is joined with a woman which is a city. What city other than Jerusalem would the dragon join himself if claiming to be God, none other. The woman in rev 12 (Jerusalem heavenly) comes to earth and is the same woman here in Rev 17. Look at how the woman is dressed in rev 17....gold, stone, pearls.

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                      • #26
                        There is still time remaining after the 1260 days as we see in Rev 11 after these days the pit up from the pit kills the 2W then he goes and marries the woman.
                        The beast marrying the woman in Revelation 12 is complete fiction made up by you which is why you never offer any proof of this nonsense.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                          The beast marrying the woman in Revelation 12 is complete fiction made up by you which is why you never offer any proof of this nonsense.
                          To not think otherwise you have to think there are two different woman in the same wilderness....if there are two then what is the other woman doing?

                          The woman in Rev 17 commits fornication, how does a non righteous woman commit fornication? The woman has to be pure beforehand.

                          What other woman (city) would the beast want to fornicate with other than Jerusalem.

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                          • #28
                            The woman in Rev 17 commits fornication, how does a non righteous woman commit fornication? The woman has to be pure beforehand.
                            That isn't correct. Fornication can be committed by impure people. Happens all the time.
                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                              Can you provide one verse?
                              I have these verses showing a woman is a city....
                              Rev 17
                              18
                              And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
                              Rev 21
                              2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
                              Lam
                              1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!
                              17 Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the Lord hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them.
                              So you can't entertain the woman in Rev 12 is a city?
                              What is a city but a collection of people?
                              Many nations are described as women, the most clear are Israel and Judah:
                              Isa 1:21 How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.

                              In Isaiah with Jerusalem as a woman as you claim.
                              Jeremiah has this:
                              Jer 3:6 The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: “Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore?
                              Jer 3:7 And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
                              Jer 3:8 She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce. Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the whore.

                              So a city is simply a collection of people in one place and a nation is a collection of people in a larger area.

                              Therefore the question is what does a woman as a SIGN in heaven speak about. Why limit it to a single city when the symbology is for the whole people of Israel? The heavenly woman is clearly Israel and therefore the woman who is LITERALLY pregnant EITHER speaks of the birth of a new people OR it speaks of the birth of an individual who IS a SIGN.
                              As the rest of the passage deals with the child as an individual so it is clear that the LITERAL woman is Mary whilst the HEAVENLY woman is Israel.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                                4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
                                5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

                                Okay so verse 5 if you believe which most do that the man child is Christ occurs in the first century but then we are to believe that verse 6 still has yet to occur?.
                                Yes, this is a vision, and visions take place sort of outside of the scope of time and space. They are often symbolic pictures of what is going on in terms of a spiritual battle. Angels are invisible, and would not be seen by men, regardless.

                                In my view, the man-child can only be Christ because the whole focus of the Revelation is on the King of the Kingdom--Jesus.


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