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  • Is Revelation Chronological?

    There is a view among some that Revelation is NOT chronological.
    However what does a person mean when they say it is not chronological?
    It seems to be claimed as a license to ignore chronology in events and so make anything possible.

    Now it is true that there are various sequences and visions shown which don't fit into the main narrative of chronology, but BOTH those sequences AND the overall thrust of Revelation IS chronological.

    We KNOW this for a certainty because John describes things in a chronological manner. He uses time words and numbers things in the order that they happen. For example the seals are numbered one to seven. They are NOT all opened at the SAME moment, but sequentially.
    The SAME is true about the Trumpets, the Three Woes and the Vials.

    It is also true that within EACH portion of a vision there is a chronology operating. The Two Witnesses come and start witnessing and do so for 1260 days and then they are killed and then 3.5 days later are raised from the dead. This is ALL stated chronologically. It is nonsense to suggest that they are raised from the dead and after 3.5 days start witnessing and then are killed and then start witnessing.

    This then means that chronology IS part of Revelation and is clearly given WITHIN it. Our challenge is simply to follow what chronology we ARE given and accept it. We should then build our understanding around these FACTS, and not try to bend the FACTS to our other ideas.

  • #2
    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    There is a view among some that Revelation is NOT chronological.
    However what does a person mean when they say it is not chronological?
    It seems to be claimed as a license to ignore chronology in events and so make anything possible.

    Now it is true that there are various sequences and visions shown which don't fit into the main narrative of chronology, but BOTH those sequences AND the overall thrust of Revelation IS chronological.

    We KNOW this for a certainty because John describes things in a chronological manner. He uses time words and numbers things in the order that they happen. For example the seals are numbered one to seven. They are NOT all opened at the SAME moment, but sequentially.
    The SAME is true about the Trumpets, the Three Woes and the Vials.

    It is also true that within EACH portion of a vision there is a chronology operating. The Two Witnesses come and start witnessing and do so for 1260 days and then they are killed and then 3.5 days later are raised from the dead. This is ALL stated chronologically. It is nonsense to suggest that they are raised from the dead and after 3.5 days start witnessing and then are killed and then start witnessing.

    This then means that chronology IS part of Revelation and is clearly given WITHIN it. Our challenge is simply to follow what chronology we ARE given and accept it. We should then build our understanding around these FACTS, and not try to bend the FACTS to our other ideas.
    If ANY PORTION of the book has ANOTHER portion in it BEFORE that portion and they speak about the SAME EVENTS, then that portion is not a part of the TIMELINE of the book of Revelation.

    In other words, Rev. 11 mentions the 2nd Woe, thus we know the 2nd Woe came to pass in Rev. 9, thus Rev. 11 CAN NOT be a part of the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation. It's a SET-A-SIDE Chapter with a SPECIFIED STORY to tell. The Two-witnesses 1260 day Ministry.

    ALL OF THESE BELOW ARE SET-A-SIDE Chapters with SPECIFIED STORIES:

    Rev. 10 Is about God/Jesus TAKING OVER once the Seven Thunders (Trumps) sound. That starts in Rev. 8 and runs through Rev. 16

    Rev. 11 is the 1260 day Ministry of the Two-witnesses, it starts 75 days BEFORE the Rev. 8 asteroid strike and actually ends with the end of the 7th Vial. "Their Ministry" actually lasts for 75 days after they die, they "PRAY DOWN the 3rd Woe." (1335 days)

    Rev. 12 is SPECIFICALLY about Satan/Anti-Christ chasing Israel into the Wilderness where she resides 1260 days. Thus this starts in Rev. 8, or 30 days before (1290)

    Rev. 13 is SPECIFICALLY about the Anti-Christ ARISING to power, this starts in Rev. 8, he GOES FORTH under cover of the asteroid strike (DOTL's Wrath)

    Rev. 14 is SPECIFICALLY about the THREE HARVESTS. Rev. 14:14 is the Pre Trib Rapture. The other two Harvests ae the Wheat and Tares (Israel and the Wicked)

    Rev. 17 is SPECIFICALLY about the Harlot Religions being JUDGED. God uses the Beast's own VAIN GLORY in order to kill off all these FALSE RELIGIONS, save Beast Worship of course, which Jesus takes care of when he returns.

    Revelation 18, as Rev. 17, both start via the Rev. 8 events, because they start via the Anti-Christ coming to power AND amidst the DOTL God's Wrath. Rev. 17 is the Anti-Christ killing off all False Religions SAVE Beast Worship, AND Rev. 18 is the Whole World (Babylon) being Judged by God's Wrath over a 42 month period.

    Rev. 19 covers 7 Years as does Rev. 14 because it shows the Bride BEFORE she marries the Lamb, then it shows the Bride RETURNING with Jesus after the 7 years of tribulation back on earth.

    So ALL OF THESE CHAPTERS ABOVE, happen at the EXACT SAME TIME, as does Revelation chapters 8, 9, 15&16 SAVE for Rev. 14 and 19 which cover 7 years each. Thus, these are all Parenthetical Citation Chapters with SPECIFIC STORIES being covered, which happen DURING the Judgment Chapters (8, 9. 15&16).

    Rev. 1 is Jesus as seen in ALL HIS GLORY (The things which you HAVE SEEN)

    Rev. 2 and 3 = The Church Age (The things WHICH ARE)

    Rev. 4-19 are the things which will be (HEREAFTER)

    Now, Rev. 4, 5 are the Church "IN" Heaven "BEFORE" the Seals are opened, Rev. 6 is the Seals being opened, Rev. 7 is the 144,000 (5 million Jews) Fleeing Judea at the 1290 AND Rev. 8 STARTS God's Wrath. So, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 ARE in Chronological Order, followed by Rev. 8, 9 SKIP TO....... Rev. 15&16.

    Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18, and 19 ALL HAPPEN during the RED CHAPTERS ABOVE, except Rev. 11 starts 75 days before Rev. 8 AND Rev. 14 and 19 covers ALL SEVEN Years.

    Comment


    • #3

      Revelation, the Book dictated to John by Jesus, does give a proper sequence of the end times events. With some asides of more details.

      We are given an overview from God's perspective of 7 types of Church's. Note that each one has some Overcomers in them. The true, faithful people of God, His Israelites by faith. Proved by Galatians 3:26-29 & 6:14-16
      Jesus is the Seed, the real Israel and we; His Christian followers are the inheritors of all the promises of God to Israel. Romans 8:16-18

      Jesus opens the Seals, 1 to 5 and we have experienced all the wars, famines and plagues possible, without wiping out humankind completely. The 5th Seal proves it is open, by the souls of all the martyrs since Stephen, kept under the heavenly Altar.
      But as the cosmic events described in the Sixth Seal, have not occurred yet, then this will be the next prophesied event. Proved by how Jesus stopped His quote of Isaiah 61, in the second verse, before:.... and a day of the vengeance of our Lord.

      This world changing disaster, triggered by an attack onto Israel by the Islamic peoples, Psalms 83, will set the stage for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
      All as described in Revelation and throughout the Bible, leading up to the 1000 year reign of King Jesus and then the final Judgement of everyone and then Eternity.
      Those found worthy will receive immortality, but the outcome for those whose names are not found in the Book of Life; is annihilation.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
        There is a view among some that Revelation is NOT chronological.
        However what does a person mean when they say it is not chronological?
        According to Revelation 1, it follows the pattern found in the 7 Branch Candle-Stick (Psalms 77:13). Thus it unfolds and repeats, with parallels.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
          There is a view among some that Revelation is NOT chronological.
          However what does a person mean when they say it is not chronological?
          It seems to be claimed as a license to ignore chronology in events and so make anything possible.

          Now it is true that there are various sequences and visions shown which don't fit into the main narrative of chronology, but BOTH those sequences AND the overall thrust of Revelation IS chronological.

          We KNOW this for a certainty because John describes things in a chronological manner. He uses time words and numbers things in the order that they happen. For example the seals are numbered one to seven. They are NOT all opened at the SAME moment, but sequentially.
          The SAME is true about the Trumpets, the Three Woes and the Vials.

          It is also true that within EACH portion of a vision there is a chronology operating. The Two Witnesses come and start witnessing and do so for 1260 days and then they are killed and then 3.5 days later are raised from the dead. This is ALL stated chronologically. It is nonsense to suggest that they are raised from the dead and after 3.5 days start witnessing and then are killed and then start witnessing.

          This then means that chronology IS part of Revelation and is clearly given WITHIN it. Our challenge is simply to follow what chronology we ARE given and accept it. We should then build our understanding around these FACTS, and not try to bend the FACTS to our other ideas.
          The book of Revelation is chronological and is explained with events to make the prophecy understandable. Everything happens one after the other as planned by God. This is one of the big reasons why many do not understand the scriptures, because they adapt the end-time prophecies according to their own opinions and ideas. The gift was not passed on to all to understand or made known to them to explain the prophecy. Many believe that they were called by God to explain the eschatology because they came in contact with knowledge from the scriptures. Anyone who rejects the chronology of revelation is not called by God or revealed to him by God. But it is best to wait and patiently look at the fulfillment of scripture, as it is fulfilled, if we are found there. Trying to put the book of revelation together like a puzzle is pointless and nonsensical.
          To God be the Glory

          Comment


          • #6
            Here is a bit of what I am speaking about:
            The First Book Of Daniel
            Daniel 4:1-37 Daniel 3:1-30 Daniel 2:1-49 Daniel 1:1-21 Daniel 7:1-28 Daniel 6:1-28 Daniel 5:1-31
            King, Everlasting Gospel, Saved Law, Test, Worship, 1st Amendment Vision, Kingdoms Of Earth To Heaven Captivity To Release Vision, Kingdoms Of Earth To Heaven Law, Test, Worship, 1st Amendment King, Everlasting Gospel, Lost
            The Revelation Of Jesus Christ
            Rev. 1:1-5:14 Rev. 6:1-8:1 Rev. 8:2-11:19 Rev. 12:1-14:20 Rev. 15:1-19:21 Rev. 20:1-15 Rev. 21:1-22:21
            The 7 Churches The 7 Seals The 7 Trumpets The Great Controversy The 7 Last Plagues The 1,000 Years The New Jerusalem
            Both fit the pattern as given by God, Psalms 77:13.

            For instance:
            Rev. 1:1,4,6, 3:21 ... which God [the Father] ...”, “... him which is, and which was, and which is to come ...”, “... his throne ...”, “... God and his father ...”, “... Father in his throne.” Rev. 21:5, 22:1,3 ... And he that sat upon the throne ...”, “... throne of God [the Father] ...”
            Rev. 1:1,2,5,9 (x2) ... Jesus Christ ...” Rev. 22:16,20,21 ... Jesus ...”, “... Lord Jesus ...”, “... Lord Jesus Christ ...”
            Rev. 1:1 ... his angel [Gabriel] ...” Rev. 22:6,16 ... his angel [Gabriel] ...”, “... mine angel [Gabriel] ...”
            Rev. 1:1 ... servant ...” Rev. 22:3,6 ... servants ...”
            Rev. 1:2,9 ... testimony of Jesus Christ ...” Rev. 22:16,18,20 ... I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify ...”, “... For I testify ...”, “... testifieth ...”
            Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” Rev. 22:7,9 Behold, I come quickly: blessedishe that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.”, “Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.”
            Rev. 1:3 ... the words of this prophecy ...” Rev. 22:7,18,19 ... the sayings of the prophecy ...”, “... the words of the prophecy ...”, “... the words of the book of this prophecy ...”
            Rev. 1:3 ... the time is at hand ...” Rev. 22:10 ... the time is at hand ...”
            Rev. 1:4(x2),11,12,13,16,20(x6), 2:1(x2), 3:1(x2), 4:5(x2), 5:1,5,6(x3) ... seven ...” Rev. 21:9(x3) ... seven ...”
            Rev. 1:4, 4:5 ... seven Spirits [the Holy Spirit] ...” Rev. 22:17 ... the Spirit [The Holy Spirit] ...”
            Rev. 1:1,4 ... John ...” Rev. 22:8 ... I John ...”
            Rev. 1:4 ... Grace be unto you ...” Rev. 22:21 ... The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. ...”
            Rev. 1:6 ... made us kings and priests ...” Rev. 22:5 ... they shall reign ...”
            Rev. 1:6 ... for ever and ever. ...” Rev. 22:5 ... for ever and ever.”
            Rev. 1:6,7,18 ... Amen.” Rev. 22:20,21 ... Amen.”
            Rev. 1:7, 3:11 Behold, he cometh with clouds ...”, “... Behold, I come quickly ...” Rev. 22:7,12,20 Behold, I come quickly ...”, “Behold, I come quickly ...”, “Surely I come quickly ...”
            Rev. 1:7 ... shall see him ...” Rev. 22:4 ... shall see his face ...”
            Rev. 1:7,11,20 ... the seven churches ...” Rev. 22:16 ... in the churches ...”
            Rev. 1:8,11 ... Alpha and Omega ...” Rev. 21:6, 22:13 ... Alpha and Omega ...”
            Rev. 1:8 ... the beginning and the ending ...” Rev. 21:6, 22:13 ... the beginning and the end ...”
            Rev. 1:9 ... your brother and companion ...” Rev. 22:9 ... thy fellowservant and of thy brethren ...”
            Rev. 1:11,20, 2:7,11,17,23,29, 3:6,13,22, ... seven churches ...”, “... seven churches ...”, “... seven churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...” Rev. 18:23, 21:2, 9,17, 22:16 ... the bride ...”, “... the bride ...”, “... the bride ...”, “... the bride ...”, “... in the churches ...”
            Rev. 1:11,17 ... the first and the last ...” Rev. 22:13 ... the first and the last ...”
            Rev. 1:11 ... a book ...” Rev. 22:7,9,10,18,19 ... this book ...”, “... the book ...”
            Rev. 1:12,13,20 (x2) ... candlestick ...” Rev. 22:5 ... candle ...”
            Rev. 1:7 [close of probation, followed by special resurrection, related events] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Rev. 22:11 [close of probation, followed by special resurrection, related events] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.”
            Rev. 1:1,2 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”, “Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.” Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David,andthe bright and morning star.”
            Rev. 2:7,11,17,26, 3:5,12,21 To him that overcometh ...”, “He that overcometh ...”, “To him that overcometh ...”, “And he that overcometh ...”, “He that overcometh ...”, “Him that overcometh ...”, “To him that overcometh ...” Rev. 21:7 He that overcometh ...”
            Rev. 2:7,10,17,26, 3:5,12,21 ... will I give ...”, “... I will give ...”, “... will I give ...”, “... will give him ...”, “... will I give ...”, “... I will not blot out his name ...”, “... I will confess ...”, “... will I make ...”, “... will I write ...”, “... I will write ...”, “... will I grant ...” Rev. 21:6 ... I will give ...”
            Rev. 2:7,11,17,26, 3:5,12,21 ... to eat of the tree of life ...”, “... not be hurt of the second death ...”, “... to eat of the hidden manna ...”, “... a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.”, “... power over the nations:”, “... the morning star.”, “... be clothed in white raiment ...”, “... not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”, “... make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. ...”, “... grant to sit with me in my throne ...” Rev. 21:6,7 ... that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.”, “... shall inherit all things ...”
            Rev. 2:7 ... tree of life ...”, “... midst of the paradise of God.” Rev. 22:1,2 ... pure river of water of life, clear as crystal ...”, “... either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
            Rev. 2:11 ... the second death.” Rev. 20:6,14, 21:8 ... the second death ...”
            Rev. 2:17 ... name ...” Rev. 22:4 ... name ...”
            Rev. 2:26 ... the nations ...” Rev. 21:24,26 ... the nations ...”, “... the nations ...”
            Rev. 3:5 ... the book of life ...” Rev. 21:27 ... the Lamb's book of life.”
            Rev. 3:8 ... no man can shut ...” Rev. 21:25 ... shall not be shut ...”
            Rev. 3:9 ... but do lie ...” Rev. 21:8,27 ... all liars ...”, “... or maketh a lie ...”
            Rev. 3:12 ... the temple of my God ...” Rev. 21:22 ... no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.”
            Rev. 3:12 ... the name of the city of my God,which isnew Jerusalem ...” Rev. 21:2,10 ... the holy city, new Jerusalem ...”, “... that great city, the holy city, new Jerusalem ...”
            Rev. 3:12 ... which cometh down out of heaven from my God ...” Rev. 21:2 ... coming down from God out of heaven ...”
            Rev. 1:6, 4:9,11, 5:12,13 ... glory ...”, “... glory ...”, “... glory ...”, “... glory ...”, “... glory ...” Rev. 21:11,23,24,26 ... glory ...”, “... glory ...”, “... glory ...”, “... glory ...”
            Rev. 4:2 ... in the spirit ...” Rev. 21:20 ... in the spirit ...”
            Rev. 4:3 ... jasper ...” Rev. 21:11,18,19 ... jasper ...”
            Rev. 4:3 ... emerald ...” Rev. 21:19 ... emerald ...”
            Rev. 4:6 ... sea ...” Rev. 21:1 ... sea ...”
            Rev. 4:6 ... crystal ...” Rev. 21:11, 22:1 ... crystal ...”, “... crystal ...”
            Rev. 4:6 ... eyes ...” Rev. 21:4 ... eyes ...”
            Rev. 5:5 ... the Root of David ...” Rev. 22:16 ... the offspring of David ...”
            Rev. 5:6,8,12,13 ... the Lamb ...” Rev. 21:9,14,22,23,27, 22:1,3 ... the Lamb ...”
            Rev. 5:8 ... vials ...” Rev. 21:9 ... vials ...”
            Rev. 5:10 ... we shall reign on the earth ...” Rev. 22:5 ... they shall reign for ever and ever.”
            Rev. 5:14 ... worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.” Rev. 22:8,9 ... worship ...”, “... worship God ...”
            If you would like to see the rest of this pattern, consider downloading from the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/download/michael...andlestick.pdf
            Last edited by Vitamin-Christ; Dec 22 2020, 11:39 AM. Reason: fixed coloration

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Vitamin-Christ View Post
              Here is a bit of what I am speaking about:
              The First Book Of Daniel
              Daniel 4:1-37 Daniel 3:1-30 Daniel 2:1-49 Daniel 1:1-21 Daniel 7:1-28 Daniel 6:1-28 Daniel 5:1-31
              King, Everlasting Gospel, Saved Law, Test, Worship, 1st Amendment Vision, Kingdoms Of Earth To Heaven Captivity To Release Vision, Kingdoms Of Earth To Heaven Law, Test, Worship, 1st Amendment King, Everlasting Gospel, Lost
              The Revelation Of Jesus Christ
              Rev. 1:1-5:14 Rev. 6:1-8:1 Rev. 8:2-11:19 Rev. 12:1-14:20 Rev. 15:1-19:21 Rev. 20:1-15 Rev. 21:1-22:21
              The 7 Churches The 7 Seals The 7 Trumpets The Great Controversy The 7 Last Plagues The 1,000 Years The New Jerusalem
              Both fit the pattern as given by God, Psalms 77:13.

              For instance:
              Rev. 1:1,4,6, 3:21 ... which God [the Father] ...”, “... him which is, and which was, and which is to come ...”, “... his throne ...”, “... God and his father ...”, “... Father in his throne.” Rev. 21:5, 22:1,3 ... And he that sat upon the throne ...”, “... throne of God [the Father] ...”
              Rev. 1:1,2,5,9 (x2) ... Jesus Christ ...” Rev. 22:16,20,21 ... Jesus ...”, “... Lord Jesus ...”, “... Lord Jesus Christ ...”
              Rev. 1:1 ... his angel [Gabriel] ...” Rev. 22:6,16 ... his angel [Gabriel] ...”, “... mine angel [Gabriel] ...”
              Rev. 1:1 ... servant ...” Rev. 22:3,6 ... servants ...”
              Rev. 1:2,9 ... testimony of Jesus Christ ...” Rev. 22:16,18,20 ... I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify ...”, “... For I testify ...”, “... testifieth ...”
              Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” Rev. 22:7,9 Behold, I come quickly: blessedishe that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.”, “Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.”
              Rev. 1:3 ... the words of this prophecy ...” Rev. 22:7,18,19 ... the sayings of the prophecy ...”, “... the words of the prophecy ...”, “... the words of the book of this prophecy ...”
              Rev. 1:3 ... the time is at hand ...” Rev. 22:10 ... the time is at hand ...”
              Rev. 1:4(x2),11,12,13,16,20(x6), 2:1(x2), 3:1(x2), 4:5(x2), 5:1,5,6(x3) ... seven ...” Rev. 21:9(x3) ... seven ...”
              Rev. 1:4, 4:5 ... seven Spirits [the Holy Spirit] ...” Rev. 22:17 ... the Spirit [The Holy Spirit] ...”
              Rev. 1:1,4 ... John ...” Rev. 22:8 ... I John ...”
              Rev. 1:4 ... Grace be unto you ...” Rev. 22:21 ... The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. ...”
              Rev. 1:6 ... made us kings and priests ...” Rev. 22:5 ... they shall reign ...”
              Rev. 1:6 ... for ever and ever. ...” Rev. 22:5 ... for ever and ever.”
              Rev. 1:6,7,18 ... Amen.” Rev. 22:20,21 ... Amen.”
              Rev. 1:7, 3:11 Behold, he cometh with clouds ...”, “... Behold, I come quickly ...” Rev. 22:7,12,20 Behold, I come quickly ...”, “Behold, I come quickly ...”, “Surely I come quickly ...”
              Rev. 1:7 ... shall see him ...” Rev. 22:4 ... shall see his face ...”
              Rev. 1:7,11,20 ... the seven churches ...” Rev. 22:16 ... in the churches ...”
              Rev. 1:8,11 ... Alpha and Omega ...” Rev. 21:6, 22:13 ... Alpha and Omega ...”
              Rev. 1:8 ... the beginning and the ending ...” Rev. 21:6, 22:13 ... the beginning and the end ...”
              Rev. 1:9 ... your brother and companion ...” Rev. 22:9 ... thy fellowservant and of thy brethren ...”
              Rev. 1:11,20, 2:7,11,17,23,29, 3:6,13,22, ... seven churches ...”, “... seven churches ...”, “... seven churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...”, “... the churches ...” Rev. 18:23, 21:2, 9,17, 22:16 ... the bride ...”, “... the bride ...”, “... the bride ...”, “... the bride ...”, “... in the churches ...”
              Rev. 1:11,17 ... the first and the last ...” Rev. 22:13 ... the first and the last ...”
              Rev. 1:11 ... a book ...” Rev. 22:7,9,10,18,19 ... this book ...”, “... the book ...”
              Rev. 1:12,13,20 (x2) ... candlestick ...” Rev. 22:5 ... candle ...”
              Rev. 1:7 [close of probation, followed by special resurrection, related events] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Rev. 22:11 [close of probation, followed by special resurrection, related events] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.”
              Rev. 1:1,2 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”, “Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.” Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David,andthe bright and morning star.”
              Rev. 2:7,11,17,26, 3:5,12,21 To him that overcometh ...”, “He that overcometh ...”, “To him that overcometh ...”, “And he that overcometh ...”, “He that overcometh ...”, “Him that overcometh ...”, “To him that overcometh ...” Rev. 21:7 He that overcometh ...”
              Rev. 2:7,10,17,26, 3:5,12,21 ... will I give ...”, “... I will give ...”, “... will I give ...”, “... will give him ...”, “... will I give ...”, “... I will not blot out his name ...”, “... I will confess ...”, “... will I make ...”, “... will I write ...”, “... I will write ...”, “... will I grant ...” Rev. 21:6 ... I will give ...”
              Rev. 2:7,11,17,26, 3:5,12,21 ... to eat of the tree of life ...”, “... not be hurt of the second death ...”, “... to eat of the hidden manna ...”, “... a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.”, “... power over the nations:”, “... the morning star.”, “... be clothed in white raiment ...”, “... not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”, “... make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. ...”, “... grant to sit with me in my throne ...” Rev. 21:6,7 ... that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.”, “... shall inherit all things ...”
              Rev. 2:7 ... tree of life ...”, “... midst of the paradise of God.” Rev. 22:1,2 ... pure river of water of life, clear as crystal ...”, “... either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
              Rev. 2:11 ... the second death.” Rev. 20:6,14, 21:8 ... the second death ...”
              Rev. 2:17 ... name ...” Rev. 22:4 ... name ...”
              Rev. 2:26 ... the nations ...” Rev. 21:24,26 ... the nations ...”, “... the nations ...”
              Rev. 3:5 ... the book of life ...” Rev. 21:27 ... the Lamb's book of life.”
              Rev. 3:8 ... no man can shut ...” Rev. 21:25 ... shall not be shut ...”
              Rev. 3:9 ... but do lie ...” Rev. 21:8,27 ... all liars ...”, “... or maketh a lie ...”
              Rev. 3:12 ... the temple of my God ...” Rev. 21:22 ... no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.”
              Rev. 3:12 ... the name of the city of my God,which isnew Jerusalem ...” Rev. 21:2,10 ... the holy city, new Jerusalem ...”, “... that great city, the holy city, new Jerusalem ...”
              Rev. 3:12 ... which cometh down out of heaven from my God ...” Rev. 21:2 ... coming down from God out of heaven ...”
              Rev. 1:6, 4:9,11, 5:12,13 ... glory ...”, “... glory ...”, “... glory ...”, “... glory ...”, “... glory ...” Rev. 21:11,23,24,26 ... glory ...”, “... glory ...”, “... glory ...”, “... glory ...”
              Rev. 4:2 ... in the spirit ...” Rev. 21:20 ... in the spirit ...”
              Rev. 4:3 ... jasper ...” Rev. 21:11,18,19 ... jasper ...”
              Rev. 4:3 ... emerald ...” Rev. 21:19 ... emerald ...”
              Rev. 4:6 ... sea ...” Rev. 21:1 ... sea ...”
              Rev. 4:6 ... crystal ...” Rev. 21:11, 22:1 ... crystal ...”, “... crystal ...”
              Rev. 4:6 ... eyes ...” Rev. 21:4 ... eyes ...”
              Rev. 5:5 ... the Root of David ...” Rev. 22:16 ... the offspring of David ...”
              Rev. 5:6,8,12,13 ... the Lamb ...” Rev. 21:9,14,22,23,27, 22:1,3 ... the Lamb ...”
              Rev. 5:8 ... vials ...” Rev. 21:9 ... vials ...”
              Rev. 5:10 ... we shall reign on the earth ...” Rev. 22:5 ... they shall reign for ever and ever.”
              Rev. 5:14 ... worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.” Rev. 22:8,9 ... worship ...”, “... worship God ...”
              If you would like to see the rest of this pattern, consider downloading from the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/download/michael...andlestick.pdf
              Showing the SAME VERBIAGE being used doesn't have anything to do with the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation, tbh.

              I showed the exact order in my post. It is what it is.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post

                Showing the SAME VERBIAGE being used doesn't have anything to do with the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation, tbh.

                I showed the exact order in my post. It is what it is.
                What you have shown is merely Jesuit Futurism. Not at all what scripture / Revelation teaches. I can show this from the scripture itself, if you would be willing to consider? If not, I will continue with information for the OP.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The Three Arms of the first portion of Revelation are repeating history, from differing angles, or vantage points. Jesus did this all of the time in the NT, when He gave a parable about one thing, and then explained it again using other symbols elsewhere. The Book of Revelation is one large parable, using symbols, and thus it repeats itself using differing symbols, with parallels, enlargements, and looking at different aspects of history (past), present and future. The latter Three Arms are a bit different, in that they are consecutive, though parallel using the same language as earlier chapters. Revelation utilizes the order of the 7 feasts of God, found in Leviticus 16 & 23. As stated, one cannot understand Revelation, without knowing Psalms 77:13.

                  We are presently, now, in the 7th church, about to go into the 7th seal, and just about to finish the 6th, and go into the 7th trumpet. All the rest is past, already accomplished.

                  An example of this:

                  Revelation is also structurally built in the Shape of the 7 Branch Candlestick and once this is understood, one cannot go wrong in determining where one is in the Book, in time, in event, &c, but it will take a little more to understand the when's.

                  The following is simplified.

                  [1] [2] [3] [7] [4] [5] [6]

                  [Beginning to Ending]

                  [7] The Great Controversy (Jeremiah 25:31; Hosea 4:1, 12:2; Micah 6:2) central theme, Christ/His people, vs Satan/his people, from all of time, Heaven to Earth

                  The Historic Parallels, from the time of John unto the End:

                  Basically run Parallel [iow, roughly same timeframes begin/end], some overlapping

                  [1] 7 Churches......[begin] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] ----------> [end] [parallel basically, some overlapping]

                  [2] 7 Seals ...........[begin] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] ---------->[end] [parallel basically, some overlapping]

                  [3] 7 Trumpets..... [begin] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] ---------->[end] [parallel basically, some overlapping]


                  The Central Theme, from the times before John, to the End of Time

                  [7] Israel (the peoples) giving birth to the Messiah, the Life of Christ, the Battle for the Heart, The History of Persecution, The History of the Final Battles

                  The Consecutives, from the time of the 7 Last Plagues unto the End.

                  Basically run Consecutively [iow, begin/end, begin/end, begin/end], some overlapping

                  [4] 7 Last Plagues ...[Begin]<---------> [end]

                  [5] 1,000 Years ......................................[Begin]<------------->[end]

                  [6] New Jerusalem, New Heaven, New Earth ............................[Begin]<------------------->[never end]

                  7 Churches also connect with New Jerusalem and its saints

                  7 Seals also connect with 1,000 Years and its sealing

                  7 Trumpets also connect with 7 Last Plagues, but the one is not the other, as the trumpets lead into the Plagues, and therefore [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] (Trumpets) and in the [7] is [7] Plagues, just as in Joshua 5-7 with Jericho, 6 days with one each, and in the 7th day, 7 more.

                  This may be seen in the very language of the texts themselves, as already partially shown above.
                  Last edited by Vitamin-Christ; Dec 22 2020, 11:12 PM. Reason: formatting

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Vitamin-Christ View Post
                    The Three Arms of the first portion of Revelation are repeating history, from differing angles, or vantage points. Jesus did this all of the time in the NT, when He gave a parable about one thing, and then explained it again using other symbols elsewhere. The Book of Revelation is one large parable, using symbols, and thus it repeats itself using differing symbols, with parallels, enlargements, and looking at different aspects of history (past), present and future. The latter Three Arms are a bit different, in that they are consecutive, though parallel using the same language as earlier chapters. Revelation utilizes the order of the 7 feasts of God, found in Leviticus 16 & 23. As stated, one cannot understand Revelation, without knowing Psalms 77:13.

                    We are presently, now, in the 7th church, about to go into the 7th seal, and just about to finish the 6th, and go into the 7th trumpet. All the rest is past, already accomplished.

                    An example of this:

                    Revelation is also structurally built in the Shape of the 7 Branch Candlestick and once this is understood, one cannot go wrong in determining where one is in the Book, in time, in event, &c, but it will take a little more to understand the when's.

                    The following is simplified.

                    [1] [2] [3] [7] [4] [5] [6]

                    [Beginning to Ending]

                    [7] The Great Controversy (Jeremiah 25:31; Hosea 4:1, 12:2; Micah 6:2) central theme, Christ/His people, vs Satan/his people, from all of time, Heaven to Earth


                    The Historic Parallels, from the time of John unto the End:

                    Basically run Parallel [iow, roughly same timeframes begin/end], some overlapping

                    [1] 7 Churches......[begin] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] ----------> [end] [parallel basically, some overlapping]

                    [2] 7 Seals ...........[begin] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] ---------->[end] [parallel basically, some overlapping]

                    [3] 7 Trumpets..... [begin] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] ---------->[end] [parallel basically, some overlapping]



                    The Central Theme, from the times before John, to the End of Time

                    [7] Israel (the peoples) giving birth to the Messiah, the Life of Christ, the Battle for the Heart, The History of Persecution, The History of the Final Battles


                    The Consecutives, from the time of the 7 Last Plagues unto the End.

                    Basically run Consecutively [iow, begin/end, begin/end, begin/end], some overlapping

                    [4] 7 Last Plagues ...[Begin]<---------> [end]

                    [5] 1,000 Years ......................................[Begin]<------------->[end]

                    [6] New Jerusalem, New Heaven, New Earth ............................[Begin]<------------------->[never end]


                    7 Churches also connect with New Jerusalem and its saints

                    7 Seals also connect with 1,000 Years and its sealing

                    7 Trumpets also connect with 7 Last Plagues, but the one is not the other, as the trumpets lead into the Plagues, and therefore [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] (Trumpets) and in the [7] is [7] Plagues, just as in Joshua 5-7 with Jericho, 6 days with one each, and in the 7th day, 7 more.

                    This may be seen in the very language of the texts themselves, as already partially shown above.
                    What if you rather tell us where we stand now in the prophecy, then we will understand much better what you are trying to promote. Also try to explain the prophecy if you can, we will be so grateful if you are more open regarding the end time events. Anyone can draw a chart and view it as credible. There are so many explanations of many, like you included and I suspect you are now giving the doctrine of the SDA, or am I wrong.
                    To God be the Glory

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by angelmike View Post
                      What if you rather tell us where we stand now in the prophecy, then we will understand much better what you are trying to promote.
                      I had said in the post,

                      "... We are presently, now, in the 7th church, about to go into the 7th seal, and just about to finish the 6th, and go into the 7th trumpet. All the rest is past, already accomplished. ..."

                      Originally posted by angelmike View Post
                      Also try to explain the prophecy if you can, we will be so grateful if you are more open regarding the end time events.
                      The prophecy is explained by scripture, as God interprets God's words - Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20; Isaiah 8:20, 28:10,13; Luke 24:45; Daniel 2:20-22,27-30. I do not interpret anything. God interprets and I simply "Amen" Him, even as Jesus is the "Amen" of the Father.

                      Originally posted by angelmike View Post
                      Anyone can draw a chart and view it as credible.
                      Draw a chart? The words are plain before you, as parallel in complete demonstration. I did not make up that structure. The structure is in the text itself, whether it be in English, Hebrew or koine Greek. The structure is the "bones" of the word of God. Like as you and I have bones, upon which flesh, sinew, muscle is laid, thus the structure of those books is its bones. Understanding the bones, helps to identify where one is in the flesh, or meat/substance of it.

                      Allow me to demonstrate this:

                      Revelation 1

                      Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
                      Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
                      Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
                      Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
                      Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

                      Notice, just two symbols in the Heavens:

                      [1] candlesticks

                      [2] stars

                      Do I "interpret"? No (2 Peter 1:20). God already gave the "interpretation" (Genesis 40:8), and I simply state what God stated (thus I "Amen" Him).

                      Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

                      [1] candlesticks = are the seven churches

                      [2] stars = the angels of the seven churches


                      Thus when considering the 7 churches, they are in the context of the following:

                      Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

                      [1] which is (present)

                      [2] which was (past)

                      [3] which is to come (future)

                      Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

                      [1] which is (present)

                      [2] which was (past)

                      [3] which is to come (future)

                      Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

                      [1] he that liveth (present)

                      [2] was dead (past)

                      [3] I am alive for evermore (future)

                      Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

                      [1] things which thou hast seen (past)

                      [2] things which are (present)

                      [3] things which shall be hereafter (future)

                      This continues all through Revelation:

                      Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

                      [1] thou sawest was (past)

                      [2] and is not (present)

                      [3] and shall ascend .. and go into perdition (future)

                      Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

                      [1] five are fallen (past)

                      [2] and one is (present)

                      [3] and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh (future)

                      Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

                      [1] the beast that was (past)

                      [2] and is not (present)

                      [3] even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition (future)


                      So Revelation is not merely Future or even Present things from John's time, but even included past events (See Revelation 12:1-5, for instance, a each of those events took place before John wrote Revelation, demonstrable upon request). Some of the statements about "present" things were even yet "future" to John's time in their respective contexts.

                      Thus every symbol in Revelation is already determined by the scripture itself. Even the timing is determined by the scripture itself. The bones determine the foundation, and where the flesh/meat/substance of it goes. it is literally build upon God's pattern, the Sanctuary, Psalms 77:13, as shown already by the very language. Knowing this, one cannot get lost in the prophecy. Other helpful keys are knowing the old testament, and the event therein in their type, such as the Exodus (Exodus 5-20, and beyond, to Joshua 5-7), the Feasts of God (Lev. 16 & 23), etc. All of this overlaps, and thus we can know for certain where we are in the prophecies, and in the prophetic timeline as well as what events are past, what events are present and what is yet to come, future

                      We can also know that the messages to the 7 churches were not for just the local natural churches, as per 1 Corinthians 15:44-46, and in their own texts:

                      Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

                      "... He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; ..."

                      That which was written to the local natural church, is for all time unto our own age, and we are to also hear what the Holy Ghost says to the churches.

                      Originally posted by angelmike View Post
                      There are so many explanations of many
                      Stop listening to them all. Simply take up the word of God itself. You don't need me, though I do not mind assisting as you should ask. Again, I am going to re-emphasize this point. It is not "I", "you" or "they" which determine what the Prophecy says. God already did that. All that "I", "you" or "they" have to do is "Amen" God's interpretation therein.

                      Originally posted by angelmike View Post
                      like you included and I suspect you are now giving the doctrine of the SDA, or am I wrong.
                      What the "SDA doctrine" is, is irrelevant. I am not putting forth men's ideas. Therefore, you would be incorrect. See above.

                      For instance, would you like to see Revelation 12? or is there another place you would like to consider?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
                        If ANY PORTION of the book has ANOTHER portion in it BEFORE that portion and they speak about the SAME EVENTS, then that portion is not a part of the TIMELINE of the book of Revelation.
                        Here is where your view maybe needs rethinking.
                        You see what you are saying is that there was a PORTION before hand which spoke of something that is then spoken about again.
                        This means that the two PORTIONS are not chronological in relation to each other, but (here is my point) BOTH must fit into the CHRONOLOGY as expressed in BOTH portions.
                        IOW the viewpoint may change but the CHRONOLOGY cannot. IF the chronology is DIFFERENT then it means it is NOT speaking about the SAME event.

                        In other words, Rev. 11 mentions the 2nd Woe, thus we know the 2nd Woe came to pass in Rev. 9, thus Rev. 11 CAN NOT be a part of the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation. It's a SET-A-SIDE Chapter with a SPECIFIED STORY to tell. The Two-witnesses 1260 day Ministry.
                        Nope, that makes NO sense at all.
                        As Rev 11 mentions the Second woe as part of the Second Woe's chronology so the OPPOSITE is true. Rev 9 is NOT the whole of the Second Woe, nor where it all comes to pass. Rev 111 is therefore PART of the CHRONOLOGICAL order of Revelation.
                        You could argue that Rev 10 is an aside from the chronological stream of Revelation.
                        Now you can argue that Rev 11 Two Witnesses (2W) of 1260 days FITS within the Second Woe, and that the events of Rev 9 may occur at sometime DURING the 2W ministry.
                        However the simpler and clearer understanding is that Rev 11 continues the story of Rev 9.
                        This means for the 2nd Woe we have the following events in CHRONOLOGICAL order.
                        Rev 9:14 on speaks of 200 million mounted soldiers who kill 1/3 of mankind. It posits the Euphrates as the center of this.
                        Even though so many died, yet people continued to follow false idols (note they are NOT following the AC (Beast at this time).
                        Rev 11:2 we are told that the city has fallen (who too is clarified elsewhere) BUT crucially the Temple has NOT.
                        This is presented as a follow on from the events of 9:14

                        To put this in possible modern terms - The US and its allies go to war with China in the land of Iraq (possibly following an Iranian invasion, and who is a Chinese ally). This leads to a explosion of the war and Iran attacks Israel, and everywhere else in thrown into chaos. Ultimately the 10 country confederation which attacks Israel wins control of the country (in line with Ezekiel 38) but just when victory seems assured then the 2W come forth and prevent the Temple from falling and the victory is stopped for the period of their ministry.


                        ALL OF THESE BELOW ARE SET-A-SIDE Chapters with SPECIFIED STORIES:
                        Rev. 10 Is about God/Jesus TAKING OVER once the Seven Thunders (Trumps) sound. That starts in Rev. 8 and runs through Rev. 16
                        Rev 10 is an aside, but it is NOT about Jesus taking over.

                        Rev. 11 is the 1260 day Ministry of the Two-witnesses, it starts 75 days BEFORE the Rev. 8 asteroid strike and actually ends with the end of the 7th Vial. "Their Ministry" actually lasts for 75 days after they die, they "PRAY DOWN the 3rd Woe." (1335 days)
                        Rev 11 is NOT an aside as discussed above.
                        Moreover Rev 8 I assume you are referencing to the 3rd Trumpet. It is nonsense to claim that the 2W start BEFORE the 6th Trumpet. They are ONLY discussed in relation to events AFTER the 6th Trumpet is blown. They are also categorically connected with the 2nd Woe!
                        Their ministry does NOT continue after their death. This is NOT supported anywhere within Revelation. Their ministry LASTS 1260 days.
                        Bringing in 1335 days is further unsupported by Revelation and they do NOT pray down a 3rd Woe.

                        Rev. 12 is SPECIFICALLY about Satan/Anti-Christ chasing Israel into the Wilderness where she resides 1260 days. Thus this starts in Rev. 8, or 30 days before (1290)
                        Rev 12 is actually a recap WITH the SIGN followed by bringing it into the present, and SPECIFICALLY is related to the 3rd Woe. Rev 12:12 states this IS the Woe! No mention of 1290 days (again this is a form of eisegesis).

                        Rev. 13 is SPECIFICALLY about the Anti-Christ ARISING to power, this starts in Rev. 8, he GOES FORTH under cover of the asteroid strike (DOTL's Wrath)
                        The AC was the one who got made the 10 nation compact (alliance/agreement) who invade DURING the 2nd Woe, but the first half of his reign is stymied by the 2W. This is why he makes the compact 7 years BEFORE he dies, but rules unopposed for 42 months.
                        It seems likely the beast arises with the blowing of the 5th trumpet, when the pit is open. Nothing to do with the 3rd trumpet.

                        Rev. 14 is SPECIFICALLY about the THREE HARVESTS. Rev. 14:14 is the Pre Trib Rapture. The other two Harvests ae the Wheat and Tares (Israel and the Wicked)
                        Weird.
                        Their are TWO harvests mentioned in Rev 14. There is NO Pre-trib Rapture (which is another nonsense and probably why you claim that Revelation is not chronological so you can try to fit it in.)
                        In BOTH harvests this is NOT about the Righteous but about the Wicked.
                        The first is removing the wicked from the Church (the Body of Jesus). The second could be about Israel for their is a great killing in Israel when the AC comes to power unopposed, but seems more to talk about the wrath of God against the wicked.

                        Rev. 17 is SPECIFICALLY about the Harlot Religions being JUDGED. God uses the Beast's own VAIN GLORY in order to kill off all these FALSE RELIGIONS, save Beast Worship of course, which Jesus takes care of when he returns.
                        It also fits though into the chronology of the 7th trumpet / 3rd Woe and the 42 months of the beast.

                        Revelation 18, as Rev. 17, both start via the Rev. 8 events, because they start via the Anti-Christ coming to power AND amidst the DOTL God's Wrath. Rev. 17 is the Anti-Christ killing off all False Religions SAVE Beast Worship, AND Rev. 18 is the Whole World (Babylon) being Judged by God's Wrath over a 42 month period.
                        Neither Rev 18 nor Rev 17 start with the 3rd Trumpet. They DO start with the AC coming to power unopposed, which is the 7th Trumpet.

                        Rev. 19 covers 7 Years as does Rev. 14 because it shows the Bride BEFORE she marries the Lamb, then it shows the Bride RETURNING with Jesus after the 7 years of tribulation back on earth.
                        I actually get your thinking here, but Rev 19 does NOT start 7 years back. Verse 2 clearly speaks of the end of the Whore which means it starts with the END of the 7th Trumpet.
                        Rev 14 does not speak of the Bride returning with Jesus.

                        So ALL OF THESE CHAPTERS ABOVE, happen at the EXACT SAME TIME, as does Revelation chapters 8, 9, 15&16 SAVE for Rev. 14 and 19 which cover 7 years each. Thus, these are all Parenthetical Citation Chapters with SPECIFIC STORIES being covered, which happen DURING the Judgment Chapters (8, 9. 15&16).
                        As noted above, this is incorrect.

                        Now, Rev. 4, 5 are the Church "IN" Heaven "BEFORE" the Seals are opened, Rev. 6 is the Seals being opened, Rev. 7 is the 144,000 (5 million Jews) Fleeing Judea at the 1290 AND Rev. 8 STARTS God's Wrath. So, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 ARE in Chronological Order, followed by Rev. 8, 9 SKIP TO....... Rev. 15&16.
                        Nope, no mention of the Church being in heaven before the seals are opened. In fact it starts with Jesus NOT being in heaven in Rev 5.

                        There is so much which you seem to ADD to scripture and damage what is stated instead of allowing it to speak first and then connect.
                        Revelation IS a CHRONOLOGICAL book, even though there are parenthetical passages throughout which give clarity to various parts. A bit like a summary and a conclusion along with points being made along the way.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Vitamin-Christ View Post
                          According to Revelation 1, it follows the pattern found in the 7 Branch Candle-Stick (Psalms 77:13). Thus it unfolds and repeats, with parallels.
                          Weird claim. Here is Psalm 77:13
                          Psa 77:13 Your way, O God, is holy. What god is great like our God?

                          There is NO repetition as such within Revelation, however some things are seen from different perspectives, which I get would lead to a claim of repetition.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The Book of Revelation obviously has a limited chronology. When some, like myself, say that the Book is not chronological, we are not always saying there is no chronological development in the Book. What we may be saying is that there is no set order from beginning to end, like a sequence of dated events from 70 AD to 2020 and counting.

                            Obviously, if you're going to have a narrative, in which God explains things to John, it is going to have some kind of story that develops from beginning to end. It just isn't strictly chronological, in the sense that it documents from A to Z what will happen in order of time. On the contrary, you get not just one vision but many visions, each with its own chronology. The fact these visions do not fit into a timing sequence is why the Book of Revelation cannot be said to be chronological in some ways.

                            A sequence of 7 seals, trumpets, and bowls are not sequences of chronological events, but rather, a sequence of seven units to indicate, in propohetic language, judgments to come in any particular chronological sequence. The purpose of the seven is not to dictate an order in time, but rather, to count to seven, indicating a complete set.

                            On the other hand, we do see reference, in the beginning of the Book, to the early churches in Asia Minor, the 3.5 years of Antichristian Reign, and finally a coming of Jesus Christ in ch. 19, with the following Millennial Reign and portrait of the New Jerusalem. This has a general chronological sequence to it that gives the narrative a natural progression.

                            However, the construction of the Book is more about several large visions with a multitude of mini-visions. And this construction is what makes the Book non-chronological. It is like a movie that basically has a chronological plot, from beginning to end, and yet reverts to past accounts, or reflections, and to future acounts, or prolepses.

                            For example, ch. 12 is a good example of looking back and recapitulating matters that already took place in the past to explain things that will take place in the 3.5 years of Antichristian reign. Christ is viewed as being born, destined to reign, setting up the account of Satan's conflict with God's coming Kingdom.

                            In many of the visions we have prolepses, or visions of the Kingdom to come, to help explain what we have to go through now to get there. It explains what God's design is in the present conflict, to defeat the forces that presently oppose Him.

                            So as long as we understand that these visions can contain flashbacks or future visions, out of sync with the natural chronology of the Book, we can say with confidence that there is a natural chronology to the Book. But to try to fit every event into a fixed timing sequence is a big mistake. Visions are much more flexible than this.

                            This kind of organization is imposed by a certain kind of Western mindset that seeks to fit everything into an order that can be taught methodically, whereas biblical truth is often given in a way to be understood by perception, or revelation. We should understand the Book of Revelation as a moral lesson, and not as one trying to prognosticate, as through a crystal ball.

                            I would add just one more thing. Many of the symbols are simply props for the vision, and not actual events in themselves. If we open the curtain in a play, opening the curtain does not represent an act in a play. It is just part of the paraphernalia of attending a play.

                            Similarly, often there are events in the Book that represent symbolic embellishments of the visions, rather than represent events themselves. When the thunders sound, and the lightning strikes, it is more akin to a prop in a play, or an embellishment, rather than symbols of real events.

                            Some symbolic occurrences in the Revelation represent real events, and others are simply part of the backdrop of the visions, such as silence in heaven for half an hour. That "silence" is intended to draw solemn meditation in heaven pointing to the gravity of the events about to be recounted--it is not indicating that there will be an actual half hour of silence in the future before real trumpets blow! At least I think some effort should be spent trying to distinguish between what things in the Book of symbolic embellishments and which are actual events to take place. Just my studied opinion.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              [SIZE=16px]The Book of Revelation obviously has a limited chronology. When some, like myself, say that the Book is not chronological, we are not always saying there is no chronological development in the Book. What we may be saying is that there is no set order from beginning to end, like a sequence of dated events from 70 AD to 2020 and counting.

                              Obviously, if you're going to have a narrative, in which God explains things to John, it is going to have some kind of story that develops from beginning to end. It just isn't strictly chronological, in the sense that it documents from A to Z what will happen in order of time. On the contrary, you get not just one vision but many visions, each with its own chronology. The fact these visions do not fit into a timing sequence is why the Book of Revelation cannot be said to be chronological in some ways.
                              Here is the CRUCIAL point I think, which you have managed to highlight, and I have underlined.
                              You see Revelation DOES have visions which DO fit into a timing sequence. In fact Revelation is SPECIFICALLY shown as full of chronological sequences. If I describe events from 95 AD to 120 AD, THEN describe events AFTER that in another vision this does NOT mean it is NOT fitting a timing sequence. IF I also have a parenthetical vision this also does NOT mean it is not chronological.
                              What we find is that these visions DO fit into a timing sequence. The outline of which is very simply based around the 7's which are presented:
                              7 Churches
                              7 Seals
                              7 Trumpets
                              7 Vials

                              Each one is SEQUENTIALLY after the previous, they are NOT in parallel, nor repetitions of each other.
                              The Book of Revelation is a bit like the Gospel of John, which also has a clear chronological progression, but has various 7's within it, such as the 7 signs, the 7 witnesses, the 7 I Ams etc.

                              A sequence of 7 seals, trumpets, and bowls are not sequences of chronological events, but rather, a sequence of seven units to indicate, in propohetic language, judgments to come in any particular chronological sequence. The purpose of the seven is not to dictate an order in time, but rather, to count to seven, indicating a complete set.
                              This makes NO sense. Each is indeed clearly shown as being in an order of time.
                              Each sequence IS a sequence of chronological events as clearly shown WITHIN each sequence AND as shown by how they are connected.

                              On the other hand, we do see reference, in the beginning of the Book, to the early churches in Asia Minor, the 3.5 years of Antichristian Reign, and finally a coming of Jesus Christ in ch. 19, with the following Millennial Reign and portrait of the New Jerusalem. This has a general chronological sequence to it that gives the narrative a natural progression.
                              What we have is that the ENTIRE book has a general chronological progression. The parenthetical insertions do NOT remove this (and are inserted WITHIN a chronological sequence so we have no reason to say each grouping is NOT sequential from the prior grouping.) On the contrary we do HAVE clear statements which has the Churches being followed by the Seals which are followed by the Trumpets which are followed by the Vials.

                              However, the construction of the Book is more about several large visions with a multitude of mini-visions. And this construction is what makes the Book non-chronological. It is like a movie that basically has a chronological plot, from beginning to end, and yet reverts to past accounts, or reflections, and to future acounts, or prolepses.
                              You are correct to note it has a basic chronological plot from beginning to end, where you err, is to claim that having any prolepses therefore makes the book as non-chronological. If you watch a movie with flashbacks you still have a clear chronology (unless badly filmed and written). The prolepses simply clarify the events.

                              For example, ch. 12 is a good example of looking back and recapitulating matters that already took place in the past to explain things that will take place in the 3.5 years of Antichristian reign. Christ is viewed as being born, destined to reign, setting up the account of Satan's conflict with God's coming Kingdom.
                              However what you miss is it brings the action up to the PRESENT and even beyond (it is a chapter which sets the scene). Rev 12 is a bit like Rev 7.

                              In many of the visions we have prolepses, or visions of the Kingdom to come, to help explain what we have to go through now to get there. It explains what God's design is in the present conflict, to defeat the forces that presently oppose Him.
                              So as long as we understand that these visions can contain flashbacks or future visions, out of sync with the natural chronology of the Book, we can say with confidence that there is a natural chronology to the Book. But to try to fit every event into a fixed timing sequence is a big mistake. Visions are much more flexible than this.
                              Where we possibly differ is that EVERY event IS fixed into the timing sequence, but where we agree is that those prolepses may start or end before what is detailed next or has just been detailed.

                              I would add just one more thing. Many of the symbols are simply props for the vision, and not actual events in themselves. If we open the curtain in a play, opening the curtain does not represent an act in a play. It is just part of the paraphernalia of attending a play.
                              Similarly, often there are events in the Book that represent symbolic embellishments of the visions, rather than represent events themselves. When the thunders sound, and the lightning strikes, it is more akin to a prop in a play, or an embellishment, rather than symbols of real events.
                              I get your thoughts here, what I think they do is signify something is going to happen, just like in the play you don't dim the lights UNTIL the play is about to begin, or open the curtains UNTIL the action will occur. So these embellishments speak of action about to happen, and not simply a random noise or event with no connection with anything.

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