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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I give up on you because you can't accept John's word that the giving of the Holy Ghost on the day of the 1st anabaino was the evidence of the glorification of the Son. And you can't accept Peter's declaration that Jesus received the Holy Ghost from the Father at the 1st anabaino.
    Joh 7:39 KJV (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
    I FULLY and 100% accept John's word.
    What I do NOT agree with you on, is that is that John connected Jesus' 1st anabaino with glorification of the Son, though actually this is irrelevant whether correct or not. IOW even IF Jesus was glorified at the 1st anabaino it is an irrelevancy.

    More importantly Peter did NOT declare that Jesus received the Holy Spirit from the Father at the 1st anabaino. Peter did NOT make ANY such declaration, but instead made a CLEAR connection with the move of the Holy Spirit as seen on Pentecost (that DAY), and that Luke 100% connected this
    with what he wrote in the preceding chapter:
    Act 1:4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me;
    Act 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    Very clearly the PROMISE was NOT given PRIOR to Jesus' 2nd anabaino, and the connection is therefore MADE by Peter with this 2nd anabaino.
    You seem unable and unwilling to accept the CLEAR CONTEXT as given by Luke and Peter.

    Are you of the mindset that doesn't believe a person has the Holy Ghost until he speaks in tongues?
    Nope.
    However the ASSURANCE we have the Holy Spirit is based on TWO things:
    1) His Word - and this is the assurance BOTH Peter and Paul refer to when speaking of Jesus being seen risen from the DEAD. This assurance is based upon egeiro/anistemi in fulfilment of His Word, and Paul notes that this is of 1st importance.
    2) His Holy Spirit giving us gifts - which may include speaking in tongues or other gifts. IOW an outward manifestation, which is what Peter is declaring in Acts 2 and what is declared in other passages WHEN speaking about the giving of the Holy Spirit as an assurance.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
      You still reject that Paul saying the gift of the Holy Ghost is [not] the assurance of the anistemi? You have a vain hope if you think that you can be saved without the Holy Ghost.
      The gift of the Holy Spirit is stated by Paul as an assurance that Jesus has anabaino.
      Jesus ONLY anabaino because He first anistemi.
      However Paul NEVER said (and therefore I am rejecting YOUR claim ONLY, for you have NO scripture supporting it) that the gift of the Holy Spirit is the assurance of anistemi.

      So let me ask you again. Do you have to speak in tongues to be saved? [I hope you can say no]. So why would you say that the apostles were not saved when they seen Jesus and believed? Why would you possibly believe that they didn't receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them? Why would you believe that Jesus was not glorified on that day? Why would think that Jesus was not ordained to sit on David's throne on that day? Why would you not believe that God said, "This day, you art my Son" on that day?
      Let me ask you some related questions:
      Did the disciples drive out demons BEFORE Jesus anistemi? BEFORE Jesus anabaino? Did they heal people BEFORE anistemi and BEFORE anabaino?
      Did the disciples believe in Jesus BEFORE He breathed on them?

      When did God say, "this day, you art my son"?
      At the 1st anabaino or the 2nd? When did Jesus present himself to the Father as the high priest for all the world? At the 1st or 2nd anabaino?
      Heb 5:2-14 KJV 2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. 11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

      I sure hope you don't still say it was the 2nd after reading Hebrews 5?
      As I posted above it is IRRELEVANT when Jesus was glorified. Whether the 1st anabaino or the 2nd. It makes ZERO difference.
      What IS relevant is that ALL scriptures which speak of the GIVING of the Holy Spirit as an ASSURANCE relate to the 2nd anabaino and Pentecost.
      What IS relevant is that Luke and Peter note that the giving of the Holy Spirit was AFTER they waited AFTER the 2nd anabaino.

      Notice that God actually calls Jesus Son BEFORE He died, and as a Son learned obedience by the things He suffered. Jesus even notes this relationship in John 3:16 and that Jesus was the Son of God BEFORE anistemi.
      However Jesus is a High Priest following the 1st anabaino as I also stated elsewhere.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
        The gift of the Holy Spirit is stated by Paul as an assurance that Jesus has anabaino.
        Jesus ONLY anabaino because He first anistemi.
        However Paul NEVER said (and therefore I am rejecting YOUR claim ONLY, for you have NO scripture supporting it) that the gift of the Holy Spirit is the assurance of anistemi.


        Let me ask you some related questions:
        Did the disciples drive out demons BEFORE Jesus anistemi? BEFORE Jesus anabaino? Did they heal people BEFORE anistemi and BEFORE anabaino?
        Did the disciples believe in Jesus BEFORE He breathed on them?


        As I posted above it is IRRELEVANT when Jesus was glorified. Whether the 1st anabaino or the 2nd. It makes ZERO difference.
        What IS relevant is that ALL scriptures which speak of the GIVING of the Holy Spirit as an ASSURANCE relate to the 2nd anabaino and Pentecost.
        What IS relevant is that Luke and Peter note that the giving of the Holy Spirit was AFTER they waited AFTER the 2nd anabaino.

        Notice that God actually calls Jesus Son BEFORE He died, and as a Son learned obedience by the things He suffered. Jesus even notes this relationship in John 3:16 and that Jesus was the Son of God BEFORE anistemi.
        However Jesus is a High Priest following the 1st anabaino as I also stated elsewhere.
        Of course, God had said, Thou art my Son. But the "begotten" part is very specific and unique.

        Yes it does matter. Acts 13 and Heb 5 are specifically referring to a specific day, quoting from Psalm 2. It was the specific day that Christ was ordained to be our high priest. When God raised him(anistemi) from the dead.

        Act 13:33 KJV God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

        Did Christ not become your high priest when he ascended on resurrection day?

        Be Blessed

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
          The gift of the Holy Spirit is stated by Paul as an assurance that Jesus has anabaino.
          Jesus ONLY anabaino because He first anistemi.
          However Paul NEVER said (and therefore I am rejecting YOUR claim ONLY, for you have NO scripture supporting it) that the gift of the Holy Spirit is the assurance of anistemi.


          Let me ask you some related questions:
          Did the disciples drive out demons BEFORE Jesus anistemi? BEFORE Jesus anabaino? Did they heal people BEFORE anistemi and BEFORE anabaino?
          Did the disciples believe in Jesus BEFORE He breathed on them?


          As I posted above it is IRRELEVANT when Jesus was glorified. Whether the 1st anabaino or the 2nd. It makes ZERO difference.
          What IS relevant is that ALL scriptures which speak of the GIVING of the Holy Spirit as an ASSURANCE relate to the 2nd anabaino and Pentecost.
          What IS relevant is that Luke and Peter note that the giving of the Holy Spirit was AFTER they waited AFTER the 2nd anabaino.

          Notice that God actually calls Jesus Son BEFORE He died, and as a Son learned obedience by the things He suffered. Jesus even notes this relationship in John 3:16 and that Jesus was the Son of God BEFORE anistemi.
          However Jesus is a High Priest following the 1st anabaino as I also stated elsewhere.
          Can you not read?

          Act 17:31 KJV Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post

            1 Cor 15:23 clearly shows that both the dead and living saints will be RESURRECTED, which will be at the same time and event.
            lol...no, the living won't be resurrected for obvious reasons. How can we have a discussion if you don't even know what certain words mean?



            Again, confused. The dead saints receive their resurrection bodies FIRST, then the living saints receive theirs.
            The living saints will NEVER receive "resurrection bodies".



            "Last trumpet". It could be after the 7 trumpet judgments.
            The 7th trumpet is the last one. There isn't an 8th trumpet.


            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • I said:
              "1 Cor 15:23 clearly shows that both the dead and living saints will be RESURRECTED, which will be at the same time and event."
              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
              lol...no, the living won't be resurrected for obvious reasons.
              Didn't you read the verse? I guess you fail to understand that to be given a "resurrection body" means to be resurrected. Here is the verse with the preceeding verse.

              22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
              23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

              Who is resurrected FIRST? Christ. Which is why Paul described Him as "the first fruits".

              He continues, THEN, when He comes (2nd Advent) "those who belong to Him". Obviously that included BOTH the dead and living saints.

              How can we have a discussion if you don't even know what certain words mean?
              Yes. It's sure been difficult to have a discussion with all the confused comments and demonstration of lack of knowledge of what verses say.

              The living saints will NEVER receive "resurrection bodies".
              Nonsense.

              More from 1 Cor 15-
              51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
              52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

              In v.51 Paul includes ALL "those who belong to Him", the ones sleeping (dead) and those not sleeping (alive). Then he says that ALL (that means both the dead and living) will be changed.

              We know that the dead saints receive their resurrection bodies. So Paul is clearly indicating that both the dead and living will receive their resurrection bodies.

              But your comment suggests that living believers don't receive a resurrection body. How odd, given what Paul wrote about that.

              42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
              43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
              44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

              Again, from v.23 both the dead and living experience the same thing. Here, in v.42-44, Paul explains WHY a resurrection body is NECESSARY to live in eternity. The physical body is perishable but it will be raised (resurrected) imperishable. (v.43)

              The 7th trumpet is the last one. There isn't an 8th trumpet.
              That is just speculation.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                I guess you fail to understand that to be given a "resurrection body" means to be resurrected.
                I can't continue the discussion because your understanding of the bible and English are not the same as mine.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                  Can you not read?
                  Act 17:31 KJV Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
                  I can read - you seem to struggle with it though as you ADD to what is said.
                  What is the assurance that is GIVEN as stated IN Acts 17:31?
                  I'll put it in BLOCK CAPITALS for you:
                  in that he hath RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.
                  You correctly note that anistemi is used, but then BIZARRELY change it to mean anabaino, but anabaino NEVER means a change from being dead to being alive BUT ONLY for something to ascend.
                  The assurance stated in Acts 17:31 is very CLEAR and it is NOT an assurance of the Holy Spirit, but an assurance that Jesus was resurrected, brought back to life, that He egeiro.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                    Of course, God had said, Thou art my Son. But the "begotten" part is very specific and unique.
                    And refers to Jesus coming into the world as Messiah, hence Jesus saying:
                    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...
                    This happened BEFORE Jesus died, as it happened for His birth.

                    Yes it does matter. Acts 13 and Heb 5 are specifically referring to a specific day, quoting from Psalm 2. It was the specific day that Christ was ordained to be our high priest. When God raised him(anistemi) from the dead.
                    Act 13:33 KJV God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
                    Did Christ not become your high priest when he ascended on resurrection day?
                    No it does NOT matter in relation to when the anabaino happened.
                    Because you have CONFUSED anistemi with anabaino so you make irrelevant points.
                    It is indeed the Day when Jesus was raised from the dead when He anistemi - This is a truism BECAUSE anistemi means to rise from the dead..
                    Moreover as I have also noted Jesus ascended to the Father on that day AND was enrolled as High priest.
                    However what IS RELEVANT to your point, is that it is not until AFTER Jesus ascended a 2nd time, that the assurance of the Holy Spirit as related by Paul in his letters (and which ARE tied into anabaino) was given.
                    Paul was NOT talking about being born again, but about the Holy Spirit being MANIFEST in a persons life.
                    You FAIL totally to deal with what Jesus said in Acts 1 when He declared that the PROMISE of the Father was NOT YET given!
                    As you reject the words of Jesus, THEN there is NO WAY to move forward and agree on this. You place YOUR assumption and logic ABOVE what is CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY stated by Him.

                    Comment


                    • I said:
                      "I guess you fail to understand that to be given a "resurrection body" means to be resurrected."
                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      I can't continue the discussion because your understanding of the bible and English are not the same as mine.
                      How true. What language were you raised in, btw? I was raised speaking English, so I have no problem understanding how the language works. Problems only arise when others who don't have a firm grasp of the English language try to communicate in it.

                      So, my final comment is that, from your posts, it appears you think that "raptured" saints will STAY in their physical bodies for eternity. That's what you have communicated, at least.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        lol...no, the living won't be resurrected for obvious reasons. How can we have a discussion if you don't even know what certain words mean?
                        I think you are talking at cross purposes.
                        I think what FreeGrace is meaning is an imperishable body. They make the clear point that we ALL change, which means BOTH those who were dead and those who were alive. Therefore we have a new BODY which is ALIVE from being a body which was destined to die, and therefore in that sense it IS a resurrection body, for all resurrection means is to rise up with the inferred meaning of alive.

                        The 7th trumpet is the last one. There isn't an 8th trumpet.
                        Interestingly Revelation does NOT say the 7th Trumpet is the Last One. It does note when the vials are given that they are the LAST plagues, but no such denoting is given for the Trumpet. Intriguingly there are 7 Seals, but is the 7th Seal the last?
                        No the 7th Seal is NOT the last - for we find three other uses of seal:
                        1) Seal of God on the forehead. This speaks of another thing receiving a seal. (Rev 7:2 & 9:4)
                        2) The pit being sealed with Satan in it, so he cannot leave until God opens that seal. (Rev 20:3)
                        3) The words of the 7 thunders which are to be sealed and not to be written (Rev 10:4)

                        Personally I see NOTHING in Revelation to say that the 7th Trumpet is also the Last Trumpet. One is blown to announce things which are coming into force, whilst the other is blown AFTER those things have come into force and in order to call His people to Himself. Therefore the PURPOSE of the 7th Trumpet is DIFFERENT to that of the Last Trumpet!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                          I said:
                          "I guess you fail to understand that to be given a "resurrection body" means to be resurrected."

                          How true. What language were you raised in, btw? I was raised speaking English, so I have no problem understanding how the language works. Problems only arise when others who don't have a firm grasp of the English language try to communicate in it.

                          So, my final comment is that, from your posts, it appears you think that "raptured" saints will STAY in their physical bodies for eternity. That's what you have communicated, at least.
                          1Cor15:51 - "Behold, I tell to you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed [G236]--"

                          This word "changed [G236]" pertains to the transformation that our bodies will experience (both re: the dead in Christ AND the we which are alive and remaining--same time-frame)... but "resurrection/to be resurrected" pertains only to those who have died [or, sleep through Jesus / the DEAD in Christ (or even to saints who will have died in other time-periods, like say, in the Trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture")], and means "to stand again [on the earth]" (after having DIED)...

                          ...and the "caught up / snatch / harpazo [G726]" word is completely distinct idea from this (though occurring at the same general time-frame as the other), and in such contexts which refer to "the Church which is His body" [who Paul is addressing] (at a certain point in time--corresponding with the "change"--that same general time-frame) speaks of our being "caught up TOGETHER [i.e. 'caught up at the same time' (<--the DEAD in Christ now resurrected AND the we which are ALIVE and remaning) / that is, in ONE snatch-action]... TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" (so a distinct "action" from that of our being "changed" into perfected/glorified bodies, like unto His glorious body)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

                            1Cor15:51 - "Behold, I tell to you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed [G236]--"

                            This word "changed [G236]" pertains to the transformation that our bodies will experience (both re: the dead in Christ AND the we which are alive and remaining--same time-frame)... but "resurrection/to be resurrected" pertains only to those who have died [or, sleep through Jesus / the DEAD in Christ (or even to saints who will have died in other time-periods, like say, in the Trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture")], and means "to stand again [on the earth]" (after having DIED)...
                            ForHisGlory explained all this in #176. Both the dead and living saints receive a NEW body. If they are materially different, please show that from Scripture. But that will be quite difficult, since Paul made it very clear in 1 Cor 15 an 1 Thess 4 that both the dead and living saints will receive a NEW body.

                            Regarding the comment about "Trib yrs FOLLOWING our Rapture", this thread is about what verses clearly indicate the events described in 1 Cor 15 an 1 Thess 4 occur BEFORE the Trib.

                            So, can you please provide the verses that are clear about WHEN these events occur? I mean, that they occur BEFORE the Trib.

                            ...and the "caught up / snatch / harpazo [G726]" word is completely distinct idea from this (though occurring at the same general time-frame as the other), and in such contexts which refer to "the Church which is His body" [who Paul is addressing] (at a certain point in time--corresponding with the "change"--that same general time-frame) speaks of our being "caught up TOGETHER [i.e. 'caught up at the same time' (<--the DEAD in Christ now resurrected AND the we which are ALIVE and remaning) / that is, in ONE snatch-action]... TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" (so a distinct "action" from that of our being "changed" into perfected/glorified bodies, like unto His glorious body)
                            Well, Paul was real clear that those who will be alive when Jesus comes will ALL BE CHANGED in 1 Cor 15-

                            51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
                            52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

                            v.51 is clearly indicating both dead and living saints as to who will be changed: ALL.

                            Are you suggesting that "we will be changed" WON'T include becoming "imperishable", as the dead saints will be??

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                              Well, Paul was real clear that those who will be alive when Jesus comes will ALL BE CHANGED in 1 Cor 15-

                              51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed
                              52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

                              v.51 is clearly indicating both dead and living saints as to who will be changed: ALL.
                              That's exactly what I just said...

                              and the very reason why I quoted v.51 in my post. ; )

                              Are you suggesting that "we will be changed" WON'T include becoming "imperishable", as the dead saints will be??
                              No (if you are meaning what I *THINK* you are meaning). Why would you suggest I've said such a thing??



                              Read my post again.


                              However, the word "resurrection / be resurrected" is talking about "resurrected from the dead" / i.e. "to stand again [on the earth (after having physically DIED)]".




                              [In 1Cor15:51-54, Paul is covering both "the DEAD IN Christ" ("THIS corruptible") *AND* the "we which are ALIVE and remaining" ("THIS mortal") who will "ALL" be "CHANGED" (into perfected/glorified bodies--SAME TIME-SLOT!) before we are then "caught up [/snatched-->] TOGETHER/AT THE SAME TIME"... to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" (so shall WE ever be "WITH [G4862 UNIONed-with] the Lord" ... which is a DISTINCT "with" word from that used in "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passage, when the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" go in "with [G3326 - accompanying] Him" to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER, i.e. the earthly MK age at its commencement upon His "RETURN from the wedding" Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 parallel Matt24:42-44 etc... IOW, He is not coming to MARRY the PLURAL "virginS" ; ) , He will be already-wed, at that point.) ]



                              BTW, the portions of the 1Cor15:51-54 passage which speak of "THIS mortal" (the "we which are ALIVE and remaining" component of the ONE BODY [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]) is further elaborated on in Paul's 2Cor5:2-4 passage, where at the end of v.4 he says (of the STILL-LIVING ones) "that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE" (these are who will be experiencing the "CLOTHED UPON" aspect, meaning, "being IMMEDIATELY clothed-upon with our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first, as will be true of "the DEAD IN Christ" portion of the ONE BODY/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [in its ENTIRETY (both the DEAD IN Christ and the LIVING)], of whom Paul has been given the task of addressing, in particular).


                              --"the DEAD IN Christ" = "THIS corruptible" (MUST PUT ON "INCORRUPTION")

                              --the "we which are ALIVE and remaining" = "THIS mortal" (MUST PUT ON "IMMORTALITY"--also 2Cor5:2-4 "mortality")

                              ... in that passage (ALL speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" to whom Paul was tasked with addressing, and disclosing these truths... [doctrine pertaining to])

                              Comment


                              • The following passages have to do with His having "DIED" (His physical body dying):

                                Psalm 16:10
                                For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

                                Acts 2:27
                                Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

                                Acts 2:31
                                He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

                                Acts 13:35
                                Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.




                                ... but these are in contrast to David, of whom Peter said, "that both he died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day" Acts 2:29, and in Acts 13:36 is further said of him, "fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption"

                                Comment

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