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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

    That's exactly what I just said...

    and the very reason why I quoted v.51 in my post. ; )



    No (if you are meaning what I *THINK* you are meaning). Why would you suggest I've said such a thing??



    Read my post again.


    However, the word "resurrection / be resurrected" is talking about "resurrected from the dead" / i.e. "to stand again [on the earth (after having physically DIED)]".




    [In 1Cor15:51-54, Paul is covering both "the DEAD IN Christ" ("THIS corruptible") *AND* the "we which are ALIVE and remaining" ("THIS mortal") who will "ALL" be "CHANGED" (into perfected/glorified bodies--SAME TIME-SLOT!) before we are then "caught up [/snatched-->] TOGETHER/AT THE SAME TIME"... to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" (so shall WE ever be "WITH [G4862 UNIONed-with] the Lord" ... which is a DISTINCT "with" word from that used in "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passage, when the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" go in "with [G3326 - accompanying] Him" to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER, i.e. the earthly MK age at its commencement upon His "RETURN from the wedding" Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 parallel Matt24:42-44 etc... IOW, He is not coming to MARRY the PLURAL "virginS" ; ) , He will be already-wed, at that point.) ]



    BTW, the portions of the 1Cor15:51-54 passage which speak of "THIS mortal" (the "we which are ALIVE and remaining" component of the ONE BODY [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]) is further elaborated on in Paul's 2Cor5:2-4 passage, where at the end of v.4 he says (of the STILL-LIVING ones) "that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE" (these are who will be experiencing the "CLOTHED UPON" aspect, meaning, "being IMMEDIATELY clothed-upon with our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first, as will be true of "the DEAD IN Christ" portion of the ONE BODY/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [in its ENTIRETY (both the DEAD IN Christ and the LIVING)], of whom Paul has been given the task of addressing, in particular).


    --"the DEAD IN Christ" = "THIS corruptible" (MUST PUT ON "INCORRUPTION")

    --the "we which are ALIVE and remaining" = "THIS mortal" (MUST PUT ON "IMMORTALITY"--also 2Cor5:2-4 "mortality")

    ... in that passage (ALL speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" to whom Paul was tasked with addressing, and disclosing these truths... [doctrine pertaining to])
    The only point is that Paul included both the dead and living in the event as known as resurrected, when BOTH receive the same kind of bodies. There's no reason to deny that the living saints will get the same kind of body as the dead saints.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
      There's no reason to deny that the living saints will get the same kind of body as the dead saints.
      But I am not making such a point.

      That is not my point.




      Recall, I said ours will be "changed" and conformed/fashioned to BE "LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY." (both the dead in Christ and the we which are alive and remaining... BOTH [and at the SAME TIME-SLOT!])

      Hello!





      [are you sure you're not a "troll" ? ; ) ]

      Comment


      • I said:
        "There's no reason to deny that the living saints will get the same kind of body as the dead saints."
        Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
        But I am not making such a point. That is not my point.
        Well, that IS my point. Now, do you agree or disagree that both the dead and living saints will get the same kind of body as the Lord Jesus at the resurrection?

        Recall, I said ours will be "changed" and conformed/fashioned to BE "LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY." (both the dead in Christ and the we which are alive and remaining... BOTH [and at the SAME TIME-SLOT!])
        I will await your answer to the above.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
          I think you are talking at cross purposes.
          I think what FreeGrace is meaning is an imperishable body. They make the clear point that we ALL change, which means BOTH those who were dead and those who were alive. Therefore we have a new BODY which is ALIVE from being a body which was destined to die, and therefore in that sense it IS a resurrection body, for all resurrection means is to rise up with the inferred meaning of alive.
          To receive a resurrection body one must die and be resurrected. The raptured saints do not die and do not get resurrected or resurrection bodies.



          Interestingly Revelation does NOT say the 7th Trumpet is the Last One.
          It does because it presents only 7 trumpets and the 7th is the last one.





          It does note when the vials are given that they are the LAST plagues
          And guess which of the 7 plagues is the "last plague"? Hint, it would be the last one out of 7.



          , but no such denoting is given for the Trumpet. Intriguingly there are 7 Seals, but is the 7th Seal the last?
          No the 7th Seal is NOT the last - for we find three other uses of seal:
          lol...The scroll has 7 seals so only the last seal would be talking about those seals on that scroll not any other type of seal other places.




          Personally I see NOTHING in Revelation to say that the 7th Trumpet is also the Last Trumpet. One is blown to announce things which are coming into force, whilst the other is blown AFTER those things have come into force and in order to call His people to Himself. Therefore the PURPOSE of the 7th Trumpet is DIFFERENT to that of the Last Trumpet!
          That's wrong. This whole post is full of errors. The book of Revelation has only 7 trumpets. It is eisegesis to invent an 8th trumpet.
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
            I FULLY and 100% accept John's word.
            What I do NOT agree with you on, is that is that John connected Jesus' 1st anabaino with glorification of the Son, though actually this is irrelevant whether correct or not. IOW even IF Jesus was glorified at the 1st anabaino it is an irrelevancy.

            More importantly Peter did NOT declare that Jesus received the Holy Spirit from the Father at the 1st anabaino. Peter did NOT make ANY such declaration, but instead made a CLEAR connection with the move of the Holy Spirit as seen on Pentecost (that DAY), and that Luke 100% connected this
            with what he wrote in the preceding chapter:
            Act 1:4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me;
            Act 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

            Very clearly the PROMISE was NOT given PRIOR to Jesus' 2nd anabaino, and the connection is therefore MADE by Peter with this 2nd anabaino.
            You seem unable and unwilling to accept the CLEAR CONTEXT as given by Luke and Peter.


            Nope.
            However the ASSURANCE we have the Holy Spirit is based on TWO things:
            1) His Word - and this is the assurance BOTH Peter and Paul refer to when speaking of Jesus being seen risen from the DEAD. This assurance is based upon egeiro/anistemi in fulfilment of His Word, and Paul notes that this is of 1st importance.
            2) His Holy Spirit giving us gifts - which may include speaking in tongues or other gifts. IOW an outward manifestation, which is what Peter is declaring in Acts 2 and what is declared in other passages WHEN speaking about the giving of the Holy Spirit as an assurance.
            What does Acts 1 say about how and when the Holy Ghost will be sent? Very little. Other than it being the "Father's promise", and that it would cause them to be witnesses of Christ throughout the world. But John says a lot in John 14 and 15.

            Joh 14:26 KJV But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

            Joh 15:26 KJV But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

            Here we see 2 things.
            1. He proceeds from the abode of the Father.
            2. Jesus is the one who sends him. The Comforter, is sent ins"my" name,, the name of Jesus. This means that Jesus is the one who has the authority to send him. But he proceeds FROM the Father, from his abode, the throne of God.

            So thanks for pointing out that there is a difference in what happened on resurrecting day, versus at the end of the 40 days. . So, yes, there were baptized with the Holy Ghost when Jesus exercised his authority to send him. And the Father's promise to send him was fulfilled... from heaven, and not from the earth. But it is the authority to send him that is of utmost importance. The authority to send him was given when Jesus was glorified. That is what John said in 7:39, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So let's look now at Heb 5.


            Christ glorified not himself, but God did by saying unto him, "thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee. And "you art a priest forever, after the order of Melchisedec.

            Heb 5:8-10 KJV 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

            He knew that he was God's Son. But he learned to be obedient by suffering that culminated in his death on the Cross. Then comes the important part. He BECAME the author of eternal salvation to those that obey him. It was then that he was ordained to be the high priest.

            The word author means to originate from. Christ was given the authority of the high priest to grant salvation to ask who obey him. How do we know that we are saved? Christ sends the Holy Ghost to all who believe and obey him. That is the authority of the high priest. That is how he became the author of eternal salvation. God is the one who sends him. But it is based on Christ's authority to request it of the Father. When Christ ascended to the Father at the 1st anabaino was when he was granted that authority. God glorified him by saying, Thou art my Son. Today have I begotten thee. Thou art a priest after the order of Melchisedec... forever. Jesus demonstrated that authority, when he said, "receive ye the Holy Ghost. But it wasn't until the day of Pentecost that Jesus exercised that authority.

            So when Paul quoted the 2nd Psalm in Acts 13, he was referring to that particular day when Jesus was given the authority. So, twice, in verses 33 and 34, he tells us that Christ was given that authority when God raised him again from the dead, via the anistemi. He says the same thing in Acts 17:33, saying that we have the assurance of the Holy Ghost that God raised him from the dead, via the anistemi. Christ was ordained to the ministry of the high priesthood at that time. Christ had been glorified by the Father and was given the authority of eternal salvation... on that day.

            Why did God raise (egeiro) Jesus from the dead? Because he didn't let his holy one suffer corruption. Jesus lived his life (until he died) without sin, being obedient unto death.
            Why did he raise (anistemi) Christ from the dead? Because he didn't leave his soul in hell, by raising him from the dead, egeiro. At his death, Christ was deemed worthy of being raised, egeiro. At his resurrection (the egeiro), Christ was deemed worthy of the authority of eternal salvation and received glory from the Father, via the Father's glorification and ordination as our high priest. It was bestowed via the anistemi, and not because of the anistemi.

            Peter said the same thing regarding the ordination of Jesus to reign upon the throne of David. He was raised/ egeiro because the seed of David, did not suffer corruption. He was raised/ anistemi to sit on David's throne, fulfilling the promise made to the fathers and to David, when God did not leave his soul in hell and raised him from the dead, egeiro. Peter relayed his message of the kingly authority of Christ to the men of Israel. Paul relayed the high priestly authority of the man, Christ Jesus, to the Athenian and strangers, to his gentile audience.

            Christ was raised/ anistemi to the authority of the king of Israel and our great high priest at the anabaino; evidenced by when David seen Christ, forever at God's right hand. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant. Christ is our great high priest.

            Be Blessed
            The PuP

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
              To receive a resurrection body one must die and be resurrected. The raptured saints do not die and do not get resurrected or resurrection bodies.
              Could you please explain the DIFFERENCE between what the dead saints get vs what the living saints get when Jesus returns?

              The book of Revelation has only 7 trumpets. It is eisegesis to invent an 8th trumpet.
              This is just an opinion. There can EASILY be a series of 7 trumpet judgments and THEN a final one. Doesn't even take an imagination to understand this.

              Revelation presents 3 SETS of 7 judgments; the 7 seal judgements, the 7 trumpet judgements, and, finally, the 7 bowl or vial judgments. It is obvious that the "last trumpet" that is mentioned when Christ returns occurs AFTER the 7 bowl judgments.

              Or, do you want to argue that the 3 sets of judgments are given out of order and we are to believe that the trumpet judgments occur AFTER the bowl/vial judgments?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                To receive a resurrection body one must die and be resurrected. The raptured saints do not die and do not get resurrected or resurrection bodies.
                A number of assumptions which highlight the difference in understanding. To resolve this I have the following questions.
                1) What is a resurrection body?
                A resurrection body is a body which is imperishable - the verses speaking of this are found in 1 Cor 15:42 - 49 which notes and number of distinctions:
                We have an EARTHLY body, but will have a HEAVENLY one.
                We have a PERISHABLE body, but we will have an IMPERISHABLE one.
                We have a NATURAL body, but we will have a SPIRITUAL one.
                We bear the image of the Man of DUST, but will bear the image of the Man of HEAVEN.

                2) Is this resurrection body LIMITED to only those who die?
                In 1 Cor 15:35 the start of this whole description points to it being about those who die and so receive a resurrection body. This seems to support your claim. However in 1 Cor 15:51 Paul notes that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" and in this verse what is stated as being true about those who PHYSICALLY died is APPLIED to those who do NOT as well.

                3) Can our EARTHLY, PERISHABLE, NATURAL body which ONLY bears the image of the Man of DUST inherit the Kingdom of God?
                Most certainly NOT, and this is why 1 Cor 15:50 is misquoted so often yet it bears the TRUTH. This body which we have (and will have if we do NOT die) will not inherit but must ALSO be CHANGED by putting on the IMPERISHABLE and the IMMORTAL as verses 52 - 54 highlight.

                All of us therefore SHALL have "resurrection" bodies, for those asleep and those who are alive are ALL changed. It seems you simply have an issue with the word "resurrection" as that implies to you a need to die, but really what it simply acknowledges is that those who are alive are really dead also and so need resurrecting just as those who have died do!

                It does because it presents only 7 trumpets and the 7th is the last one.
                And? Revelation makes NO connection between the 7th Trumpet and the Last Trumpet. It has no descriptive of the SAME.
                The phrase the Last Trumpet does NOT occur in Revelation.
                What you are therefore doing is what amounts to eisegesis, taking one last trumpet and making it equal a DIFFERENT last trumpet.

                And guess which of the 7 plagues is the "last plague"? Hint, it would be the last one out of 7.
                lol...The scroll has 7 seals so only the last seal would be talking about those seals on that scroll not any other type of seal other places.
                The FACT remains that there are OTHER Seals which means that the 7th Seal is NOT the Last Seal, but ONLY the last out of the 7.
                This FACT remains true for the plagues, for these plagues are the last of THAT group of plagues, but as Zech 14 notes:
                Zec 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
                Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

                So though the 7th plague is the last of the vials of plagues and God's wrath in relation to this, YET there are later plagues which MAY occur during the Millennium Kingdom.

                That's wrong. This whole post is full of errors. The book of Revelation has only 7 trumpets. It is eisegesis to invent an 8th trumpet.
                What IS eisegesis is to claim that the 7th Trumpet is the Last of ALL Trumpets which are blown in the End Times. There is NO such claim in Revelation so the eisegesis is by ANYONE who claims it is the SAME without the evidence for it.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                  What does Acts 1 say about how and when the Holy Ghost will be sent? Very little. Other than it being the "Father's promise", and that it would cause them to be witnesses of Christ throughout the world. But John says a lot in John 14 and 15.
                  Joh 14:26 KJV But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
                  Joh 15:26 KJV But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
                  Here we see 2 things.
                  1. He proceeds from the abode of the Father.
                  2. Jesus is the one who sends him. The Comforter, is sent ins"my" name,, the name of Jesus. This means that Jesus is the one who has the authority to send him. But he proceeds FROM the Father, from his abode, the throne of God.
                  Actually Acts 1 says more than you claim.
                  1) Jesus says THIS sending of the Holy Spirit is what is promised. Therefore EVERY reference to the Father sending the Holy Spirit as PROMISED refers to THIS sending.
                  2) Jesus says THIS sending has NOT HAPPENED. It will happen in the FUTURE, so wait. We are then told in Acts 2 what happens WHEN that sendingf happened.
                  3) All of Peter's and Paul's sermons then point to THIS sending (at Pentecost) and NOT to any other time.

                  So thanks for pointing out that there is a difference in what happened on resurrecting day, versus at the end of the 40 days. . So, yes, there were baptized with the Holy Ghost when Jesus exercised his authority to send him. And the Father's promise to send him was fulfilled... from heaven, and not from the earth. But it is the authority to send him that is of utmost importance. The authority to send him was given when Jesus was glorified. That is what John said in 7:39, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So let's look now at Heb 5.
                  Christ glorified not himself, but God did by saying unto him, "thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee. And "you art a priest forever, after the order of Melchisedec.
                  Heb 5:8-10 KJV 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
                  He knew that he was God's Son. But he learned to be obedient by suffering that culminated in his death on the Cross. Then comes the important part. He BECAME the author of eternal salvation to those that obey him. It was then that he was ordained to be the high priest.
                  The word author means to originate from. Christ was given the authority of the high priest to grant salvation to ask who obey him. How do we know that we are saved? Christ sends the Holy Ghost to all who believe and obey him. That is the authority of the high priest. That is how he became the author of eternal salvation. God is the one who sends him. But it is based on Christ's authority to request it of the Father. When Christ ascended to the Father at the 1st anabaino was when he was granted that authority. God glorified him by saying, Thou art my Son. Today have I begotten thee. Thou art a priest after the order of Melchisedec... forever. Jesus demonstrated that authority, when he said, "receive ye the Holy Ghost. But it wasn't until the day of Pentecost that Jesus exercised that authority.
                  And?
                  The FACT Jesus was granted authority at the 1st Anabaino does NOT mean Jesus USED that authority nor sent the Holy Spirit at that time.
                  This is where you get ahead of yourself (and Jesus). In fact you recognise that Jesus ONLY excised the authority AFTER the 2nd anabaino.

                  So when Paul quoted the 2nd Psalm in Acts 13, he was referring to that particular day when Jesus was given the authority. So, twice, in verses 33 and 34, he tells us that Christ was given that authority when God raised him again from the dead, via the anistemi. He says the same thing in Acts 17:33, saying that we have the assurance of the Holy Ghost that God raised him from the dead, via the anistemi. Christ was ordained to the ministry of the high priesthood at that time. Christ had been glorified by the Father and was given the authority of eternal salvation... on that day.
                  In Acts 17:31 Paul does NOT say we have the assurance of the Holy Spirit. You are ADDING words. Paul SPECIFICALLY points to the rising from the dead. Acts 13 makes the SAME point. The PROMISE is obtained BECAUSE of the anistemi but is given AFTER the 2nd anabaino.
                  The one is gained for a later giving.
                  Anistemi is NOT anabaino and is NEVER used synonymously. Rather they are used SEQUENTIALLY. Anistemi leads to anabaino which leads to the PROMISE of the Father,
                  Once you get this SIMPLE thing, then ALL scripture makes sense.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                    Could you please explain the DIFFERENCE between what the dead saints get vs what the living saints get when Jesus returns?


                    This is just an opinion. There can EASILY be a series of 7 trumpet judgments and THEN a final one. Doesn't even take an imagination to understand this.

                    It does take an imagination because there is no 8th trump in Revelation. The 7th is the last of 7 trumpets. That's elementary level math.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      It does take an imagination because there is no 8th trump in Revelation. The 7th is the last of 7 trumpets. That's elementary level math.
                      No imagination required. The 7th is NOT called the Last. It takes imagination to assume that the 7th of 7 is also the Last. The purpose of the 7 Trumpets is ENTIRELY different to the purpose of the Last Trumpet.
                      The 7 Trumpets are blown warning of disaster on the earth, but the Last Trumpet is blown calling His saints together from around the world.
                      As I highlighted before there are 7 seals spoken of as a group, but there are also OTHER seals spoken of which are NOT part of the 7. This is indeed entry level maths, where we learn that 7 plus 1 does NOT equal 7.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                        Could you please explain the DIFFERENCE between what the dead saints get vs what the living saints get when Jesus returns?

                        This is just an opinion. There can EASILY be a series of 7 trumpet judgments and THEN a final one. Doesn't even take an imagination to understand this.
                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        It does take an imagination because there is no 8th trump in Revelation. The 7th is the last of 7 trumpets. That's elementary level math.
                        Here's the deal. There are 7 trumpet judgments and another set of judgments, called "bowl" or "vial" judgments. Jesus doesn't return to earth until AFTER ALL the judgments are completed.'

                        So it is VERY EASY to understand that at Jesus' return (with a trumpet call) it is WAY AFTER the 7 trumpet judgments.

                        If He returns when the 7th trumpet blasts, then He is here on earth during the remainder of the Tribulation.

                        And that, sir, you cannot prove from Scripture.

                        Comment


                        • This is the first day in way over a week that I've been able to access this website. It wouldn't even open during that time. What is going on? Am I the only one who's having this problem?

                          Thanks.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            No imagination required. The 7th is NOT called the Last.
                            Argument from silence fallacy. If there are 7 of something, the 7th IS the last.

                            It takes imagination to assume that the 7th of 7 is also the Last. The purpose of the 7 Trumpets is ENTIRELY different to the purpose of the Last Trumpet.
                            That's false. You have personally made the 8th trump up. There is no such thing in the NT.


                            The 7 Trumpets are blown warning of disaster on the earth
                            The 7th and last trump signals the second coming to begin, the resurrection and rapture to happens and the vials of wrath and any and all other events that happen after the 7th and last trump sounds.



                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                              Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                              Could you please explain the DIFFERENCE between what the dead saints get vs what the living saints get when Jesus returns?

                              This is just an opinion. There can EASILY be a series of 7 trumpet judgments and THEN a final one. Doesn't even take an imagination to understand this.

                              Here's the deal. There are 7 trumpet judgments and another set of judgments, called "bowl" or "vial" judgments. Jesus doesn't return to earth until AFTER ALL the judgments are completed.'

                              So it is VERY EASY to understand that at Jesus' return (with a trumpet call) it is WAY AFTER the 7 trumpet judgments.

                              If He returns when the 7th trumpet blasts, then He is here on earth during the remainder of the Tribulation.

                              And that, sir, you cannot prove from Scripture.
                              You error is to think the 7th trump sounds mid-trib. It sounds right when the Great Tribulation has ended and Christ does come once it has sounded.

                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                                This is the first day in way over a week that I've been able to access this website. It wouldn't even open during that time. What is going on? Am I the only one who's having this problem?

                                Thanks.
                                Everyone had the same problem.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                                Comment

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