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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

    You error is to think the 7th trump sounds mid-trib. It sounds right when the Great Tribulation has ended and Christ does come once it has sounded.
    Have you missed the Seven Bowls?
    Revelation 16:1-21 happens AFTER the 7th Trumpet and obviously it is the 7th Bowl, verse 17-18, that is the Battle of Armageddon, when Jesus Returns.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
      Argument from silence fallacy. If there are 7 of something, the 7th IS the last.
      You are the one arguing from silence.
      The 7th is simply the last of 7, but NOT the Last of all trumpets.

      That's false. You have personally made the 8th trump up. There is no such thing in the NT.
      What is false? The Last Trumpet has an ENTIRELY different purpose to the 7 trumpets of Revelation.
      Who are the 7 Trumpets blown for?
      Who is the Last Trumpet blown for?
      Totally different.
      The Last Trumpet is the Trumpet blown when Jesus descends from heaven and NOT before that event. The 7th Trumpet however is blown BEFORE Jesus descends.

      The 7th and last trump signals the second coming to begin, the resurrection and rapture to happens and the vials of wrath and any and all other events that happen after the 7th and last trump sounds.
      Nope the 7th Trumpet does NOT signal the second coming is about to begin. It makes NO mention of Jesus' second coming. Instead it speaks of the CHANGE that occurs with Jesus being crowned king.
      The Vials ALL happen BEFORE the Last Trumpet. The Last Trumpet is blown on the Day when Jesus returns, but the 7th is blown 42 months before.
      You have a serious problem with chronology IF you think the 7th and the Last are the SAME. For the Last is blown at Jesus' descent and our rapture, which is clearly NOT the same moment as the Vials are poured out!
      If you pay attention to the details THEN it is clear that the 7th trumpet is exactly that, the 7th out of 7, but not the Last which is a separate trumpet and NOT part of the group of 7.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

        Argument from silence fallacy. If there are 7 of something, the 7th IS the last.
        Wrong. When there are 7 items listed in a group, within the Tribulation, yes, the 7th item IS the LAST item in THAT group. But that doesn't preclude a FINAL item at the END of the Trib in any way at all.


        Comment


        • My question:
          "Could you please explain the DIFFERENCE between what the dead saints get vs what the living saints get when Jesus returns?"
          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          You error is to think the 7th trump sounds mid-trib. It sounds right when the Great Tribulation has ended and Christ does come once it has sounded.
          Maybe you could actually answer my question.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
            The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
            Correction: scripture never said that Jesus will "return to earth to resurrect and rapture the faithful". According to 1 Thess 4:17, the faithful (the risen dead and raptured living) will meet the Lord in the air. IOW, Jesus will not touch his foot on the earth. Thus the assumption that he returned to 'earth' is erroneous.

            How do we distinguish this meeting in the air from his actual return to earth? In Rev 1:7, we are told, that all eyes will see him when he returns. In contrast, the sinners left behind after the rapture will not see the meeting in the air! Thus, the people on earth will not see the meet in the air during the resurrection and rapture. But on his actual return, all eyes will see him.

            The proof that Jesus took the saints with him to heaven is revealed by John in Rev 19:6. Just so no one doubts this, we note that throughout the NT, the church is described as the bride of Christ (2 Cor 11:2), some translations use the word betrothed or espoused to Christ. Just like we say these days that a woman is "engaged" to her fiance before marriage. But after Jesus takes the risen and raptured saints to heaven, we here an angel declare that the marriage of the Lamb has come and that his wife (the church) has made herself ready, (v7). This is the first time the church is referred, to as "wife".

            Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

            Having received immortality, the church is clothed in white linen - a depiction of righteousness and holiness. From Rev 14, we now see the actual return of Christ to earth with the church as part of his retinue. Unfortunately, some are confused because the scripture used the word "armies" (v14) to describe those returning with Jesus. But this is easily understood because the army here is a collection of angels and the church. Why? Because we are told in Matt 22:30, that in the resurrection, we will be like the angels, i.e. we will have their qualities.

            Another point of correction is your assumption that the rapture will occur before the Great Tribulation. This is a Pretrib view, and it is wrong. The rapture and resurrection will occur at the end of the great tribulation.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
              The only point is that Paul included both the dead and living in the event as known as resurrected, when BOTH receive the same kind of bodies. There's no reason to deny that the living saints will get the same kind of body as the dead saints.
              Correct. All whether living or dead are changed for the better when he comes again. We leave the old body behind.


              50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
              51 Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
              52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


              We inherit the kingdom when he comes again.

              Matt 25
              31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.

              34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

              Comment


              • FreeGrace View Post
                The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                Correction: scripture never said that Jesus will "return to earth to resurrect and rapture the faithful".
                Let's not quibble. The point is clear here. Are there verses that support the pre-Trib view that Jesus comes down from heaven and resurrects/raptures all believers and takes them back to heaven?

                According to 1 Thess 4:17, the faithful (the risen dead and raptured living) will meet the Lord in the air. IOW, Jesus will not touch his foot on the earth. Thus the assumption that he returned to 'earth' is erroneous.
                Quibbling. Since Jesus supposedly leaves heaven and enters the earth's atmosphere, He can easily be said to "come to earth" since He supposedly enters the atmosphere and is seen "on the clouds".

                How do we distinguish this meeting in the air from his actual return to earth? In Rev 1:7, we are told, that all eyes will see him when he returns. In contrast, the sinners left behind after the rapture will not see the meeting in the air!
                What verses suggest or say that unbelievers will not see this supposed pre-Trib "meeting in the air". You make the claim without evidence.

                Thus, the people on earth will not see the meet in the air during the resurrection and rapture. But on his actual return, all eyes will see him.
                "Thus"?? What Scripture supports your claim?

                The proof that Jesus took the saints with him to heaven is revealed by John in Rev 19:6.
                OK, let's examine this verse, along with some context:

                1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
                2 for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
                3 And again they shouted: “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”
                4 The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: “Amen, Hallelujah!”
                5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying: “Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both great and small!”
                6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

                First, I see nothing in v.6 that supports what you claim. And none of the first 5 verses do either. v.6 simply records praise for our Lord God Almighty. The dead saints in heaven are quite capable of doing that. I think you are reading into the text what isn't there. There is nothing about saints entering heaven, which is what your view supposes.

                Just so no one doubts this, we note that throughout the NT, the church is described as the bride of Christ (2 Cor 11:2), some translations use the word betrothed or espoused to Christ. Just like we say these days that a woman is "engaged" to her fiance before marriage. But after Jesus takes the risen and raptured saints to heaven, we here an angel declare that the marriage of the Lamb has come and that his wife (the church) has made herself ready, (v7). This is the first time the church is referred, to as "wife".[/QUOTE]
                The problem with your supposition is that Rev 19 occurs at the END of the 7 year Tribulation. And the wording is clear in ch 19 that the wedding of the Lamb 'has come' and the bride "has made herself ready". The pre-Trib view is that this event happened 7 years prior, so the wording doesn't make sense. The wording in ch 19 is about an event that is about to happen. Not one that happened 7 years previously.

                Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
                Exactly!

                Having received immortality, the church is clothed in white linen - a depiction of righteousness and holiness. From Rev 14, we now see the actual return of Christ to earth with the church as part of his retinue. Unfortunately, some are confused because the scripture used the word "armies" (v14) to describe those returning with Jesus. But this is easily understood because the army here is a collection of angels and the church. Why? Because we are told in Matt 22:30, that in the resurrection, we will be like the angels, i.e. we will have their qualities.
                Your assumption is refuted by Acts 3:21 - Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

                The Greek word, according to my lexicon, says the word translated "receive" means to "receive and retain, contain". And a number of translations use "remain".

                New Living Translation
                For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
                Berean Study Bible
                Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.
                Amplified Bible
                whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
                Contemporary English Version
                But Jesus must stay in heaven until God makes all things new, just as his holy prophets promised long ago.
                Good News Translation
                He must remain in heaven until the time comes for all things to be made new, as God announced through his holy prophets of long ago.
                International Standard Version
                He must remain in heaven until the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets.

                So, 6 out of 26 English translations, or nearly 1/4 of them indicate that Jesus STAY IN HEAVEN "until the time of restoration of all things". So this means that Jesus doesn't leave heaven for a quick trip to earth's atmosphere to gather up saints and take them back to heaven.

                In fact, 1 Thess 4 is a Second Coming event. My study Bible even acknowledges that.

                Another point of correction is your assumption that the rapture will occur before the Great Tribulation. This is a Pretrib view, and it is wrong. The rapture and resurrection will occur at the end of the great tribulation.
                Well then, there was nothing to correct. That's my point.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                  Correct. All whether living or dead are changed for the better when he comes again. We leave the old body behind.


                  50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
                  51 Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
                  52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
                  I wish this forum included smiley faces!

                  We inherit the kingdom when he comes again.

                  Matt 25
                  31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.
                  This verse doesn't support the idea that all believers will inherit the kingdom.

                  34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
                  Actually, the Bible teaches that there are 2 kinds of "inheritance" in heaven. One is inheritance because believers are God's children. The other one is an inheritance based on works. iow, this inheritance is the rewards earned by faithfulness and obedience.

                  Yes, all believers will enter heaven. Rom 8:17a makes this point about being God's children and God's heirs:
                  17a - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God

                  However, believers will be "co-heirs with Christ ONLY IF IF IF they "share in His sufferings in order to share in His glory"

                  17b - and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

                  The first mentioned heirship is not conditional. As God's children, all are heirs in that sense. But, the second heirship is conditional, based on sharing in His sufferings.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post

                    Actually, the Bible teaches that there are 2 kinds of "inheritance" in heaven. One is inheritance because believers are God's children. The other one is an inheritance based on works. iow, this inheritance is the rewards earned by faithfulness and obedience.

                    Yes, all believers will enter heaven. Rom 8:17a makes this point about being God's children and God's heirs:
                    17a - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God

                    However, believers will be "co-heirs with Christ ONLY IF IF IF they "share in His sufferings in order to share in His glory"

                    17b - and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

                    The first mentioned heirship is not conditional. As God's children, all are heirs in that sense. But, the second heirship is conditional, based on sharing in His sufferings.

                    I am confused by your post.

                    According to Romans 8 its the whole of creation that awaits the redemption of the body. This occurs to the living in Christ as well as all the dead in him since creation.
                    We are all changed by his appearing a second time.


                    18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body.
                    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                      You are the one arguing from silence.
                      The 7th is simply the last of 7, but NOT the Last of all trumpets.

                      And there are only 7 trumpets! There is no 8th trumpet. It's imaginary!
                      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                        My question:
                        "Could you please explain the DIFFERENCE between what the dead saints get vs what the living saints get when Jesus returns?"

                        Maybe you could actually answer my question.
                        One is a resurrection body which is a new body not the result of a dead body being brought to life then changed into immortal, and one is a body that was changed from a living mortal body into an immortal body. The result is the same, but the process is very different.

                        Think of them like this:

                        The New Earth isn't a brand new one but is the old Earth changed into a new or renewed Earth. But new Jerusalem is a new and different city than old Jerusalem. The immortal bodies of the dead and living are similar to those.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

                          Correct. All whether living or dead are changed for the better when he comes again. We leave the old body behind.

                          No, that's wrong. The living saints bodies are changed. There is no body to leave behind because they didn't die nor then do they have a resurrection. They are changed like changing copper into gold. No copper is left behind in such a concept.
                          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post


                            No, that's wrong. The living saints bodies are changed. There is no body to leave behind because they didn't die nor then do they have a resurrection.
                            Perishable bodies are full of death, even before we breath our last.
                            We are all changed and experience the redemption of the body together , whether we are still breathing or not on that glorious day.

                            Heb 9
                            27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
                            And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

                              Perishable bodies are full of death, even before we breath our last.
                              In Christ the living are full of LIFE not death.

                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                                In Christ the living are full of LIFE not death.
                                Then why the need for us living to be changed at his coming a second time?
                                Why is the redemption of the body future tense?


                                Rom 8
                                22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly for it.


                                The living are in need of it just as much as the dead brethren are.
                                And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                                Comment

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