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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

    In Christ the living are full of LIFE not death.
    Yet all of our brothers and sisters in Christ past, present and future have and will die bodily until the great day of the appearing of our great God and savior . Only then will we all together put on the imperishable.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    • Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

      Then why the need for us living to be changed at his coming a second time?
      Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. They must be changed into immortals.

      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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      • Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

        Yet all of our brothers and sisters in Christ past, present and future have and will die bodily until the great day of the appearing of our great God and savior . Only then will we all together put on the imperishable.
        They are full of LIFE not death. Death of the mortal body does not change that. To say the saved are full of death is to insult the Holy Spirit within them and that could be a very serious sin.
        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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        • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

          Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. They must be changed into immortals.
          Yes..., death is totally removed from them through glorification / redemption of the BODY.
          And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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          • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

            They are full of LIFE not death. Death of the mortal body does not change that. To say the saved are full of death is to insult the Holy Spirit within them and that could be a very serious sin.
            Why did Peter , Paul etc DIE bodily? Anyone who believes is seated in the heavenly realms and has the blessed hope of escaping the second death.
            We all look forward to this day......


            2tim 4
            6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

            8 in the future there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.


            Our bodies are still full of death, but even so the saved are seated with him in the heavenly awaiting the redemption of the BODY.
            And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

              Why did Peter , Paul etc DIE bodily?
              Because they were mortal.


              Our bodies are still full of death, but even so the saved are seated with him in the heavenly awaiting the redemption of the BODY.
              That still insults the Holy Spirit within those who are saved and full of LIFE.



              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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              • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                Because they were mortal.
                Their bodies were destined to die and they did die, even though they were born again of the Spirit. They had a future blessed hope regarding the redemption of their body.




                That still insults the Holy Spirit within those who are saved and full of LIFE.
                How can it be an insult seriously?
                Redemption of the body is what every Christian has looked forward to since day 1. We are told when this shall be.

                Paul knew his departure was coming soon, and if you were born in 1938 then so should you .

                You do share Paul's same hope of being rewarded at his future appearing don't you?....along with everyone else?




                2tim 4
                6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

                8 in the future there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.


                And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                  I didn't see any verse that says that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting all believers. That was the question for this thread. Do you have any verses that says He does return to heaven?
                  When Jesus comes to gather the living and the dead saints to himself at his coming , this old heaven and earth will pass away.
                  Heaven comes to us all prepared.




                  25 “There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting from fear and the expectation of the things that are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

                  29 And He told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees: 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near. 31 So you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

                  33Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
                  34 “But be on your guard, so that your hearts will not be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that this day will not come on you suddenly, like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But stay alert at all times, praying that you will have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”




                  What happens next is a NHNE where righteousness will dwell for those ready and left standing.




                  2pet 3
                  11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

                  14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unscrupulous people and lose your own firm commitment, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
                  And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    And there are only 7 trumpets! There is no 8th trumpet. It's imaginary!
                    No the imagination is that there are only 7.
                    There are 7 which are stated as a GROUP in Revelation. However Revelation does NOT say those are the ONLY 7 - and this is where your imagination is getting involved.
                    As I highlighted there are a GROUP of 7 seals mentioned (being on a scroll) but these are NOT the ONLY seals mentioned in Revelation.
                    As other passages in scripture - Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 to name a couple speak of the Last Trumpet AND have it occurring at a DIFFERENT time to when the 7th Trumpet is blown, so you are actually using eisegesis rather than sticking to what IS said in scripture.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      Correction: scripture never said that Jesus will "return to earth to resurrect and rapture the faithful". According to 1 Thess 4:17, the faithful (the risen dead and raptured living) will meet the Lord in the air. IOW, Jesus will not touch his foot on the earth. Thus the assumption that he returned to 'earth' is erroneous.
                      You are correct to say that THIS passage does NOT say that Jesus will touch His foot on the earth. However NEITHER does this passage say He will return to heaven. This means we need to look at the CONTEXT of what is happening to determine whether Jesus is coming to the earth AND to other passages which speak of Jesus' return.

                      How do we distinguish this meeting in the air from his actual return to earth? In Rev 1:7, we are told, that all eyes will see him when he returns. In contrast, the sinners left behind after the rapture will not see the meeting in the air! Thus, the people on earth will not see the meet in the air during the resurrection and rapture. But on his actual return, all eyes will see him.
                      Here you make the SAME error you complain about above:
                      Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
                      You say that sinners will not see the meeting in the air? Yet what scripture do you base this upon? This is simply a fanciful claim. Why won't people see Him? This is the Day of His return and He will destroy the AC and the armies of the AC.

                      The proof that Jesus took the saints with him to heaven is revealed by John in Rev 19:6. Just so no one doubts this, we note that throughout the NT, the church is described as the bride of Christ (2 Cor 11:2), some translations use the word betrothed or espoused to Christ. Just like we say these days that a woman is "engaged" to her fiance before marriage. But after Jesus takes the risen and raptured saints to heaven, we here an angel declare that the marriage of the Lamb has come and that his wife (the church) has made herself ready, (v7). This is the first time the church is referred, to as "wife".
                      Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
                      The very fact that Rev 19:7 is the Bride is making herself ready means she is NOT YET with Him.
                      Now you use the KJV but the word is simply gune in Greek.
                      Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; (ESV)
                      The word gune is used for woman, and can mean simply woman or betrothed / bride or wife.
                      It is also used for someone who is to be a wife as shown in Rev 21:
                      Rev 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

                      A woman makes herself ready for her marriage BEFORE she is married, and the very clear sentiment expressed in the first part of the verse is that the marriage has come and NOT that it has happened (in the past).
                      The entire picture therefore is a woman ON her marriage day, and NOT a woman who was married some months before.
                      Rev 19 therefore paints a picture which is different to what you propose, and that this is the Day of marriage and there is no rapture PRIOR to this event.
                      Later we have the Bridegroom leave heaven to GET His Bride with His armies, which again points to the Bride NOT being with Him at that time.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                        Actually, the Bible teaches that there are 2 kinds of "inheritance" in heaven. One is inheritance because believers are God's children. The other one is an inheritance based on works. iow, this inheritance is the rewards earned by faithfulness and obedience.

                        Yes, all believers will enter heaven. Rom 8:17a makes this point about being God's children and God's heirs:
                        17a - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God

                        However, believers will be "co-heirs with Christ ONLY IF IF IF they "share in His sufferings in order to share in His glory"

                        17b - and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

                        The first mentioned heirship is not conditional. As God's children, all are heirs in that sense. But, the second heirship is conditional, based on sharing in His sufferings.
                        Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                        I am confused by your post.
                        Soory about that. I'll try to clarify.

                        According to Romans 8 its the whole of creation that awaits the redemption of the body. This occurs to the living in Christ as well as all the dead in him since creation.
                        We are all changed by his appearing a second time.
                        Correct.

                        18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body.
                        The believer's adoption actually occurs at the resurrection. The verse says that we wait "eagerly for our adoption as sons". iow, we ARE already sons, awaiting our adoption. We are God's children through faith. John 1:12, Gal 3:26. In Paul's day, he was referring to the Roman ceremony, where the (usually) oldest son goes through an "adoption" which identifies him as a an adult ready for all the responsibilities of adulthood. So, at the resurrection, when believers receive their resurrection bodies, they will be considered to be adult sons.

                        My comments were about the word "inheritance". Of which there are 2 kinds or types. One is based on being God's child (Rom 8:17a) and the other one is based on "sharing in His sufferings" so that we can "share in His glory" (Rom 8:17b).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          And there are only 7 trumpets! There is no 8th trumpet. It's imaginary!
                          There are 7 trumpet judgments, then 7 bowl judgments, which FINISH God's wrath during the Tribulation, and THEN a FINAL trumpet to announce the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior, the King of kings, and Lord of lords who comes to earth and sets up His Millennial Kingdom.

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                          • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                            My question:
                            "Could you please explain the DIFFERENCE between what the dead saints get vs what the living saints get when Jesus returns?"

                            Maybe you could actually answer my question.
                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            One is a resurrection body which is a new body not the result of a dead body being brought to life then changed into immortal, and one is a body that was changed from a living mortal body into an immortal body. The result is the same, but the process is very different.
                            Just to be sure, I will take your comment "the result is the same" means that there is NO DIFFERENCE between the new bodies of dead saints and the living saints.

                            Think of them like this:

                            The New Earth isn't a brand new one but is the old Earth changed into a new or renewed Earth. But new Jerusalem is a new and different city than old Jerusalem. The immortal bodies of the dead and living are similar to those.
                            Yep.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                              The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
                              The Scriptures don't say that Jesus comes to earth to pick up the saints. Rather, they are caught up to heaven to meet him in the clouds. That way they will be glorified 1st, before returning with him to earth in glory. We are all to participate in his glorious return, and to participate in his inheritance of the earth.

                              What happens after that is open to question. His Kingdom begins on earth. But what will happen to the transfigured saints I don't claim to know except that they will share rule with Christ over the earth for 1000 years.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                                The Scriptures don't say that Jesus comes to earth to pick up the saints. Rather, they are caught up to heaven to meet him in the clouds.

                                I'm not picky. The "clouds" mean that Jesus enters EARTH's atmosphere, so it doesn't matter to say that Jesus comes to earth. He certainly comes to earth's atmosphere.

                                The point is the challenge to provide any verses that teach that Jesus comes to gather all those who belong to Him (1 Cor 15:23) and THEN return to heaven.

                                That way they will be glorified 1st, before returning with him to earth in glory.
                                It seems you DO believe that Jesus goes back to heaven "before returning...to earth" then. So what verses make that clear?

                                We are all to participate in his glorious return, and to participate in his inheritance of the earth.
                                Which occurs at the SECOND (not third) Coming.

                                What happens after that is open to question. His Kingdom begins on earth. But what will happen to the transfigured saints I don't claim to know except that they will share rule with Christ over the earth for 1000 years.
                                The Bible is clear on that. When Jesus comes to earth the SECOND time, after resurrecting the dead saints and changing the living saints, they ALL continue to earth's crust, where Jesus ends the battle of Armageddon and sets up His Millennial Rule on earth. Those unbelievers who survived the Tribulation are who will be ruled. And with an iron scepter.

                                Doing the "math" of how many will die during the Trib appears to be about 50% of the world's population. So there will still be about 3.5 billion to be ruled.

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