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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    Let's not quibble. The point is clear here. Are there verses that support the pre-Trib view that Jesus comes down from heaven and resurrects/raptures all believers and takes them back to heaven?
    I am not Pre-Trib, so I don't have to answer this question.

    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    Quibbling. Since Jesus supposedly leaves heaven and enters the earth's atmosphere, He can easily be said to "come to earth" since He supposedly enters the atmosphere and is seen "on the clouds".
    Earth's atmosphere, huh? You are arguing like a scientist instead of letting scripture interpret itself. There is nothing that Paul said about meeting the Lord in the air that suggests the people on earth will see the event. This assumption is a figment of your imagination. Who is quibbling now?

    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    What verses suggest or say that unbelievers will not see this supposed pre-Trib "meeting in the air". You make the claim without evidence.
    No flesh has ever seen an immortal spirit. If you have, please tell us? The church will receive immortality at the resurrection/rapture, i.e. we will become like the angels. Angels appear to 'man' on their own initiative - no one has ever seen a spirit with their physical eye. The only reason mortal eyes will see Jesus and his saints returning is to fulfil the scriptures and also, that no flesh will doubt his return. So the wicked left-behind people on earth cannot see Jesus meeting his saints in the air.

    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    OK, let's examine this verse, along with some context:

    1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
    2 for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
    3 And again they shouted: “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”
    4 The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: “Amen, Hallelujah!”
    5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying: “Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both great and small!”
    6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

    First, I see nothing in v.6 that supports what you claim. And none of the first 5 verses do either. v.6 simply records praise for our Lord God Almighty. The dead saints in heaven are quite capable of doing that. I think you are reading into the text what isn't there. There is nothing about saints entering heaven, which is what your view supposes.
    For a start, it takes discernment to understand prophecy. You are not the first to read Revelation like a novel and miss the point. The risen saints are referenced as the multitude in v6 and v7 tells us what happens next, which is the marriage of the Lamb. "The marriage of the Lamb has come and his wife has made herself ready" I don't know where you read that there are 'dead saints in heaven'? If the dead saints are already in heaven, what then is the essence of the resurrection? Who exactly got resurrected?

    No doubt you're confusing the souls under the altar in Rev 6:9-11 as the supposed saints in heaven? According to Ecclesiastes 12:7, at death, the spirit returns unto God who gave it. But there is nothing in the whole Bible to support the erroneous idea that the righteous dead are bodily in heaven until they receive the spiritual body at the resurrection. The assumption is that the spiritual body received at the resurrection will merge with the spirit that left the body at death and be complete. Note that this will not apply to the raptured since they never experienced physical death.

    I recognise that this may be too advanced for you.

    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    The problem with your supposition is that Rev 19 occurs at the END of the 7 year Tribulation. And the wording is clear in ch 19 that the wedding of the Lamb 'has come' and the bride "has made herself ready". The pre-Trib view is that this event happened 7 years prior, so the wording doesn't make sense. The wording in ch 19 is about an event that is about to happen. Not one that happened 7 years previously.
    OK, this inevitably takes us to the age-old debate on the doctrine of Pre-Trib and Post-Trib and which one is correct? The discourse is inexhaustible and ongoing. I don't have the time to go into right; I've been debating it for years. Post-trib holds the view that the church will be on earth and go through the GT, some will die but the majority will survive till the rapture.

    The scene is Rev 19 plays out at the end of the tribulation when the Lord returns, there are no seven years break in the chapter to validate your account where verses 6-7 plays out 7 years earlier to the glorious return of the Messiah. Sorry, you are clutching at straws.




    Comment


    • Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

      When Jesus comes to gather the living and the dead saints to himself at his coming , this old heaven and earth will pass away.
      Nope. That doesn't happen until the GWTJ and LOF are all finished. Only after that will the NHNE begin.
      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
        No the imagination is that there are only 7.
        False. This is precisely why you cannot quote Revelation showing there is an 8th trumpet. It doesn't exist. Pure eisegesis.

        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
          There are 7 trumpet judgments, then 7 bowl judgments, which FINISH God's wrath during the Tribulation, and THEN a FINAL trumpet to announce the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior, the King of kings, and Lord of lords who comes to earth and sets up His Millennial Kingdom.
          Yet Revelation contains only 7 trumps, not 8. The last trump is the 7th and it triggers the return of Christ.
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

            Nope. That doesn't happen until the GWTJ and LOF are all finished. Only after that will the NHNE begin.
            The second coming is when that happens if Jesus is to be believed....,

            Jesus matt 24
            35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

            36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


            Jesus matt 25
            31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.

            34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

            41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;




            The ungodly depart into the LOF at his coming when the Heaven and earth pass away according to our Lord.


            Rev 20

            11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them.



            Jesus was correct in Matthew and he was correct in Revelation. He is the one who takes his seat to judge.



            Matt 25
            31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.



            And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

              The second coming is when that happens if Jesus is to be believed....,

              Jesus never said the NHNE happens at the second coming. He told John in Revelation 21 that it happens after the GWTJ.



              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                Jesus never said the NHNE happens at the second coming. He told John in Revelation 21 that it happens after the GWTJ.
                In Revelation Jesus has the NHNE start when He comes. However the question is really what do we mean by the NHNE starting? What change happens etc.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  Yet Revelation contains only 7 trumps, not 8. The last trump is the 7th and it triggers the return of Christ.
                  The point therefore is that Revelation does NOT mention the Last Trumpet, but only speaks about OTHER trumpets.
                  This is what is FAULTY with your reasoning.
                  What you basically reason is:
                  There is a Last Trumpet - correct!
                  There are 7 trumpets mentioned in Revelation - correct!
                  The last of the trumpets mentioned in Revelation is the 7th - correct!
                  Therefore as no trumpet is mentioned after this 7th trumpet it is the Last Trumpet - false!
                  Your logic falls down as Revelation does NOT have to mention the Last Trumpet. Instead you have seen one trumpet is the last out of a group and therefore it is the last in relation to an entirely different event! This is simply wonky logic.
                  You make apples equal pears or oranges.
                  I highlighted that there are multiple seals IN Revelation, and we can see that though they are ALL seals, they are also different seals and unrelated, but you seem incapable of acknowledging that just as the one group of seals has one purpose and relates to certain things, whilst the other seals relate to another, that it is possible that there is one group of trumpets which are related to one thing and that there could be another trumpet at a later time.
                  Yet ALL this is evident from the chronology that Revelation itself presents to you.
                  The Last Trumpet is NOT triggering the return of Jesus in Matt 24 or in 1 Thess 4. The Last Trumpet is blown AFTER Jesus is returning. It is the Trumpet call for the dead (and living) to rise to meet Him in the clouds!
                  However the 7th Trumpet is blown to herald the START of the GT with Satan being kicked out of heaven, and Jesus being proclaimed king.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    Earth's atmosphere, huh? You are arguing like a scientist instead of letting scripture interpret itself.
                    Scientists deal in facts (at least they are supposed to!). The FACT is that going from the 3rd heaven (far far away) to the earth's atmosphere (very near the earth) is "going to earth".

                    There is nothing that Paul said about meeting the Lord in the air that suggests the people on earth will see the event.
                    When you put all the verses together regarding His Second Coming, it is clear that everyone will see Him. Some will "mourn". Rev 1:7

                    This assumption is a figment of your imagination. Who is quibbling now?
                    I don't consider Rev 1:7 to be a figment of anything.

                    "“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen."

                    Does this look like a figment of an imagination?

                    No flesh has ever seen an immortal spirit. If you have, please tell us?
                    This is a silly question. I've never suggested that we can see immortal spirits.

                    The church will receive immortality at the resurrection/rapture, i.e. we will become like the angels.
                    Yes and No. Yes, the church, along with "all who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23) will receive their new immortal bodies, bur NO, we will not become like the angels. Do you believe that Jesus' resurrection body is "like the angels"? I'd call that a figment of an imagination. Unless you have a clear verse or passage that says His body is "like the angels". Well, do you?

                    For a start, it takes discernment to understand prophecy. You are not the first to read Revelation like a novel and miss the point.
                    Well, thanks for the snarky snort. You may think you have much greater discernment than others, but that again could be just another figment of your imagination.

                    No doubt you're confusing the souls under the altar in Rev 6:9-11 as the supposed saints in heaven?
                    More opinion, or is it just another figment? Of course the "altar" referenced IS in heaven. Where else could it be? They are martyred souls.
                    9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
                    10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
                    11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

                    If you don't see that these under the altar are IN heaven, you're just not looking very hard.

                    According to Ecclesiastes 12:7, at death, the spirit returns unto God who gave it. But there is nothing in the whole Bible to support the erroneous idea that the righteous dead are bodily in heaven until they receive the spiritual body at the resurrection.
                    Please allow me to introduce you to some very needed truth. Paul wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of Truth, that being "absent from the body means face to face with the Lord".

                    Your denial that souls of dead believers don't go to heaven is quite incorrect. Apparently you believe in "soul sleep"?? Is that right?

                    I recognise that this may be too advanced for you.
                    I recognize that you have a real problem with snarkiness. Not a good trait to exhibit.

                    OK, this inevitably takes us to the age-old debate on the doctrine of Pre-Trib and Post-Trib and which one is correct? The discourse is inexhaustible and ongoing. I don't have the time to go into right; I've been debating it for years. Post-trib holds the view that the church will be on earth and go through the GT, some will die but the majority will survive till the rapture.
                    You've already noted that you don't believe in a pre-Trib rapture. So, do you believe the Second Coming is when the resurrection occurs, or at some other time?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      Yet Revelation contains only 7 trumps, not 8. The last trump is the 7th and it triggers the return of Christ.
                      This has already been clearly explained. But is seems your eyes and ears are closed to teaching. Your fixation on the 7th trumpet in a series of 7 trumpets within God's wrath has blinded you to the reality that at the very end of the Trib, when Jesus returns, it will be with another trumpet call of God.

                      If you can't grasp that clear concept, there's nothing anyone can do to help.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                        I'm not picky. The "clouds" mean that Jesus enters EARTH's atmosphere, so it doesn't matter to say that Jesus comes to earth. He certainly comes to earth's atmosphere.

                        The point is the challenge to provide any verses that teach that Jesus comes to gather all those who belong to Him (1 Cor 15:23) and THEN return to heaven.
                        The point I made was quite clear. Jesus is coming back from heaven to gather his people. He does so by descending from heaven. Before he actually descends from heaven, the angels gather up the saints from the earth, taking them to the clouds of heaven. This is the environment of the earthly atmosphere, I would suppose. It is beyond the realm of being on the earth, and in a place hidden up in the sky.

                        So Jesus is *not* coming down to earth, to pick up his people, and then "return" to heaven. These are the words you used--"return to heaven." He cannot return to heaven if he has not yet actually touched down upon the earth. He is just beginning his descent when the saints are immediately brought to him by the angels, for the purpose of glorification. That way, they can all descend together in glorified bodies, to inherit the earth, and to establish Christ's Kingdom upon the earth. Glorification must take place in heaven first, and then descent to the earth. That's about as clear as I can make it.

                        Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                        It seems you DO believe that Jesus goes back to heaven "before returning...to earth" then. So what verses make that clear?
                        Which occurs at the SECOND (not third) Coming.
                        Yes, Christ comes back with his Church at the 2nd Coming. The glorification of the Church takes place in the instant Christ begins his descent from heaven. The "twinkling of an eye" is instantaneous.

                        Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                        The Bible is clear on that. When Jesus comes to earth the SECOND time, after resurrecting the dead saints and changing the living saints, they ALL continue to earth's crust, where Jesus ends the battle of Armageddon and sets up His Millennial Rule on earth. Those unbelievers who survived the Tribulation are who will be ruled. And with an iron scepter.

                        Doing the "math" of how many will die during the Trib appears to be about 50% of the world's population. So there will still be about 3.5 billion to be ruled.
                        Sounds reasonable to me.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          The point I made was quite clear. Jesus is coming back from heaven to gather his people.
                          Correct.

                          He does so by descending from heaven.
                          Correct.

                          Before he actually descends from heaven, the angels gather up the saints from the earth, taking them to the clouds of heaven.
                          Incorrect. The Bible does NOT say anything about "clouds of heaven". This is just an attempt to get the resurrected/raptured saints back to heaven. No dice.

                          This is the environment of the earthly atmosphere,
                          But you just said "clouds of heaven". Heaven isn't close to the earth, so again, no dice.

                          It is beyond the realm of being on the earth, and in a place hidden up in the sky.
                          Imagination only. Acts 1:11 - “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

                          iow, the 11 disciples saw Jesus in earth's atmosphere as He left the ground. And the 2 angels said He would return the SAME WAY. That obviously means His return TO EARTH.

                          So Jesus is *not* coming down to earth, to pick up his people, and then "return" to heaven. These are the words you used--"return to heaven."
                          Of course not. There are no verses that make such a statement.

                          He cannot return to heaven if he has not yet actually touched down upon the earth. He is just beginning his descent when the saints are immediately brought to him by the angels, for the purpose of glorification. That way, they can all descend together in glorified bodies, to inherit the earth, and to establish Christ's Kingdom upon the earth. Glorification must take place in heaven first, and then descent to the earth. That's about as clear as I can make it.
                          How about that! We agree.

                          Yes, Christ comes back with his Church at the 2nd Coming. The glorification of the Church takes place in the instant Christ begins his descent from heaven.
                          Well, I spoke too soon. The glorification of "those who belong to Him" which includes all the dead saints in heaven, plus all the living saints ON the earth, occurs when Jesus reaches earth's atmosphere.

                          The "twinkling of an eye" is instantaneous.
                          We agree.

                          Sounds reasonable to me.
                          Everything that is biblical is quite reasonable to me.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            In Revelation Jesus has the NHNE start when He comes.
                            No, the NHNE is in Revelation 21 and that is not the time of the second coming. You obviously don't understand anything about the timing of the second coming or the NHNE.

                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                              The point therefore is that Revelation does NOT mention the Last Trumpet, but only speaks about OTHER trumpets.
                              Using this broken logic, a person can say there are 3,500 trumps but they just aren't mentioned in Revelation. This is classic eisegesis.

                              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                                This has already been clearly explained. But is seems your eyes and ears are closed to teaching. Your fixation on the 7th trumpet in a series of 7 trumpets within God's wrath has blinded you to the reality that at the very end of the Trib, when Jesus returns, it will be with another trumpet call of God.

                                If you can't grasp that clear concept, there's nothing anyone can do to help.
                                No one can grasp nonsense that doesn't exist in the bible. You are teaching an eisegesis and complain when someone doesn't accept it.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                                Comment

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