Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by randyk View Post

    Glorification must take place in heaven first, and then descent to the earth.
    This is correct regarding the dead in Christ as they indeed resurrect in heaven. It is not true for the living saints who have their living bodies glorified while they are on the Earth, before they are raptured upwards. That order is needed because if they were raptured before being glorified, they would die in the rapture do to lack of oxygen where they are going.

    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

      Jesus never said the NHNE happens at the second coming. He told John in Revelation 21 that it happens after the GWTJ.
      He didnt have to say that.

      Peter understood before Revelation was written, that he expected a NHNE at the promise of his coming. 2 Pet 3....,

      This is because Jesus spoke of the passing of this heaven and earth and a throwing into the fire at his coming in Matthew 24 and 25.

      Revelation 20 reiterates this truth and explains the obvious outcome of the heaven and earth passing away with a totally restored one.
      And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
        This has already been clearly explained. But is seems your eyes and ears are closed to teaching. Your fixation on the 7th trumpet in a series of 7 trumpets within God's wrath has blinded you to the reality that at the very end of the Trib, when Jesus returns, it will be with another trumpet call of God.

        If you can't grasp that clear concept, there's nothing anyone can do to help.
        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
        No one can grasp nonsense that doesn't exist in the bible.
        What is sad is your fixation on only 7 trumpets. And you still haven't explained how Jesus comes back after the 7th trumpet, which is in the middle of the Trib.

        You are teaching an eisegesis and complain when someone doesn't accept it.
        You don't know what you are talking about. I haven't complained about anything. Seems you don't grasp much. I explain what I believe and give biblical support for my views.

        If you are looking for eisegesis, look no farther than your own posts.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by randyk View Post
          Glorification must take place in heaven first, and then descent to the earth.
          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          This is correct regarding the dead in Christ as they indeed resurrect in heaven.
          Here are 2 examples of confused ideas. No one gets glorified in heaven. Resurrection bodies are given in the earth's atmosphere, better known as CLOUDS.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

            He didnt have to say that.

            Peter understood before Revelation was written, that he expected a NHNE at the promise of his coming. 2 Pet 3....,

            This is because Jesus spoke of the passing of this heaven and earth and a throwing into the fire at his coming in Matthew 24 and 25.

            Revelation 20 reiterates this truth and explains the obvious outcome of the heaven and earth passing away with a totally restored one.
            Neither Peter or John support a second coming NHNE. It only takes place after the GWTJ is over. There is no way the wicked will live one second upon the new Earth.

            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
              Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
              This has already been clearly explained. But is seems your eyes and ears are closed to teaching. Your fixation on the 7th trumpet in a series of 7 trumpets within God's wrath has blinded you to the reality that at the very end of the Trib, when Jesus returns, it will be with another trumpet call of God.

              If you can't grasp that clear concept, there's nothing anyone can do to help.

              What is sad is your fixation on only 7 trumpets. And you still haven't explained how Jesus comes back after the 7th trumpet, which is in the middle of the Trib.
              What's sad is your inventing of an 8th trumpet. That's false teaching and is known as eisegesis.


              You don't know what you are talking about. I haven't complained about anything. Seems you don't grasp much. I explain what I believe and give biblical support for my views.

              If you are looking for eisegesis, look no farther than your own posts.
              Empty words. The eisegesis is all yours. Go ahead and prove me wrong by citing any verse speaking of an 8th trumpet sounding in the end times.


              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                Here are 2 examples of confused ideas. No one gets glorified in heaven. Resurrection bodies are given in the earth's atmosphere, better known as CLOUDS.
                That's also wrong:

                2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
                2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

                The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.


                2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
                2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

                Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.


                1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
                1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

                The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.

                Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
                Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

                Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.

                Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

                The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.

                Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!



                1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
                1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

                Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?


                If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:

                Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

                Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.

                1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
                1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

                A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received.


                So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  No, the NHNE is in Revelation 21 and that is not the time of the second coming. You obviously don't understand anything about the timing of the second coming or the NHNE.
                  You are correct that the NHNE is SPECIFIED in Rev 21. It is ALSO specified in Isaiah 65 & 66.
                  What you do NOT seem to understand is what the NHNE is.
                  Understand Isaiah 65 & 66 and THEN you will also get what Rev 21 & 22 are saying. This will also clarify passages such as from 2 Peter 3:13.
                  The NJ is the START of the NHNE on earth and IT comes down with Jesus at His coming - for the NJ is His Bride, and we come with Him at His return!

                  Using this broken logic, a person can say there are 3,500 trumps but they just aren't mentioned in Revelation. This is classic eisegesis.
                  There is NOTHING broken in this logic.
                  There are many trumpets mentioned in the Bible which are NOT mentioned in Revelation. By your broken logic those trumpets aren't real because they aren't in Revelation. However the phrase "the Last Trumpet" does NOT occur in Revelation. Eisegesis is when you bring something OUTSIDE a CONTEXT to try to prove something is there INSIDE the CONTEXT.
                  I am highlighting that it is eisegesis to say that the 7th Trumpet MUST BE the Last, when it makes no such claim and many things in revelation show it is NOT, not least Rev 11:18 which states:
                  Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

                  Now according to YOUR claim, ALL this happens at the 7th Trumpet. However the dead are NOT judged when the 7th Trumpet is blown, nor is God's wrath finished at the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet simply heralds a movement from the previous events of the 6th and now onto the final of the 7 Trumpets and the events associated with it.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post

                    The NJ is the START of the NHNE on earth
                    Another error by you. The NHNE starts before the NJ comes down from heaven but who cares about details when basically everything is wrong, right?


                    There are many trumpets mentioned in the Bible which are NOT mentioned in Revelation.
                    And there is no 8th trumpet in the bible at all. YOU claim there is one, the bible does not. Want a lesson on eisegesis? There you go.

                    However the dead are NOT judged when the 7th Trumpet is blown
                    lol...the dead in Christ are. You don't even know the basics let alone the meat.


                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      Another error by you. The NHNE starts before the NJ comes down from heaven but who cares about details when basically everything is wrong, right?
                      You are correct. It does, for the NHNE starts in Heaven, 42 months before it starts on earth. However it starts on earth with the return of Jesus and the NJ coming down from heaven.

                      And there is no 8th trumpet in the bible at all. YOU claim there is one, the bible does not. Want a lesson on eisegesis? There you go.
                      Actually a lot more than 8. The 7 are simply a group of 7, but the others aren't added to them nor taken away from them.
                      The 8th is a separate Trumpet which has a relationship with the 7 but isn't one of the 7.
                      I think you need to understand what eisegesis is, as you clearly don't seem to understand what it is.
                      I have never claimed the Last Trumpet was one of the 7 and so I am not ADDING anything from outside the CONTEXT into the CONTEXT. However you are ADDING by claiming that the 7th is not only the 7th but also the Last.

                      lol...the dead in Christ are. You don't even know the basics let alone the meat.
                      Weird, there are NO dead in Christ. We are made alive IN Christ or don't you know that? Talk about not knowing the basics. We are DEAD in our sins and die WITH Christ, and made alive with Him. Rev 11:18 speaks of the GWToJ when the dead are raised for judgement, or do you NOT understand this? This is why Amil claim that the GWToJ happens when Jesus returns, because like you, they think that the 7th Trumpet is the Last.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        What's sad is your inventing of an 8th trumpet.
                        What's sad is your making up stuff. I never mentioned an "8th trumpet". The Bible describes a final trumpet when the Lord returns to earth at the END of the Tribulation. And you can't explain that.

                        That's false teaching and is known as eisegesis.
                        Yes, that is exactly what you are doing.




                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                          Here are 2 examples of confused ideas. No one gets glorified in heaven. Resurrection bodies are given in the earth's atmosphere, better known as CLOUDS.
                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          That's also wrong:

                          2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
                          2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
                          These verses say nothing about being glorified in heaven, as you falsely claim. Read the verses again.

                          The new body is in heaven!
                          Read them again. v.2 says "to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven". There is NOTHING about being glorified IN heaven.

                          1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
                          1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

                          The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.
                          You are just so confused. This passage describes what will occur IN THE CLOUDS of the earth's atmosphere to both dead and living saints.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                            This is correct regarding the dead in Christ as they indeed resurrect in heaven. It is not true for the living saints who have their living bodies glorified while they are on the Earth, before they are raptured upwards. That order is needed because if they were raptured before being glorified, they would die in the rapture do to lack of oxygen where they are going.
                            I don't think the laws of physics will play any role in the "Rapture." It happens in a 2nd. Oxygen deprivation does not take place in that short a period of time.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              Glorification must take place in heaven first, and then descent to the earth.

                              Here are 2 examples of confused ideas. No one gets glorified in heaven. Resurrection bodies are given in the earth's atmosphere, better known as CLOUDS.
                              I don't see a significant difference in the words "heaven" and "earth's atmosphere." Jesus ascended and was glorified in heaven. So will it be for us.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                                I don't think the laws of physics will play any role in the "Rapture." It happens in a 2nd. Oxygen deprivation does not take place in that short a period of time.
                                No scripture says the rapture takes a second. What takes the blink of an eye is the CHANGE when we are clothed in immortality - that is what 1 Cor 15:51 & 52 says.
                                How long will the Rapture take? The ONLY raptures that we are told any sort of duration about are when Jesus ascended to heaven and was seen going up, but was not a defined length of time, and when Elijah was taken up in the chariot of fire (whirlwind), which was also possible to follow with the eye - as Elisha did.
                                However if you only go as high as the clouds there is no oxygen deprivation, unless you go above the clouds (or very high clouds).

                                In Greek the word heaven is used for the sky, space and the 3rd heaven. However cosmos is also used for space, and heaven usually refers to the sky.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X