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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by randyk View Post
    I don't see a significant difference in the words "heaven" and "earth's atmosphere." Jesus ascended and was glorified in heaven. So will it be for us.
    What verses clearly indicate that believers will be glorified in heaven? All believers will be glorified when they receive their resurrection/raptured bodies, and that occurs when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

    But there are no verses that indicate that Jesus takes them back up to heaven.

    In fact, at the Second Coming, no believer will ever enter heaven again.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
      What verses clearly indicate that believers will be glorified in heaven? All believers will be glorified when they receive their resurrection/raptured bodies, and that occurs when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

      But there are no verses that indicate that Jesus takes them back up to heaven.

      In fact, at the Second Coming, no believer will ever enter heaven again.
      For me, "Heaven" just means an area closer in proximity to God than our planet. We transcend earth to obtain something from God in "heaven." All the Scriptures speak of God's Kingdom coming from heaven. Even the New Jerusalem, which is the home of the saints, will descend out of heaven from God. Does this mean saints have been in heaven before New Jerusalem descends from heaven? I think that is the logical conclusion. Jerusalem is in heaven now, housing the saints, and it will return at the end of the Millennium, or before, depending on your eschatology.

      As I said, Jesus returned to heaven after his resurrection. I believe this is the same pattern the saints will follow. "He will return in the same way." (Acts 1) I believe that means we also will follow this pattern, rising from the dead, being caught up to heaven, and then returning with him, all in an instant.

      When Paul speaks of putting on our heavenly attire, he is suggesting that we get that attire from God in heaven, and not here on the earth. We must go to heaven to receive it from Christ in heaven. And then we will return with him, to rule on the earth in God's Kingdom.

      2 Cor 5.2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling,

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
        No scripture says the rapture takes a second. What takes the blink of an eye is the CHANGE when we are clothed in immortality - that is what 1 Cor 15:51 & 52 says.
        How long will the Rapture take? The ONLY raptures that we are told any sort of duration about are when Jesus ascended to heaven and was seen going up, but was not a defined length of time, and when Elijah was taken up in the chariot of fire (whirlwind), which was also possible to follow with the eye - as Elisha did.
        However if you only go as high as the clouds there is no oxygen deprivation, unless you go above the clouds (or very high clouds).

        In Greek the word heaven is used for the sky, space and the 3rd heaven. However cosmos is also used for space, and heaven usually refers to the sky.
        Yes, I agree on the definitions of "heaven," but not on the duration during which this happens. We are told it takes a second of time, in the "twinkling of an eye." Yes, that's the change.

        How else can we be caught up to meet him in the sky unless it takes place instantly? It's not like we have to take a plane, or as if it takes God time to get us from A to B.

        We have 2 purposes, as I see it, for being caught up to heaven, and none of them requires any time. In fact, to go up to meet Christ *at his descent* infers that it is instantaneous.

        But the 2 reasons for our being caught up is not just to take us out of tribulation and suffering, though there is that. But primarily, it is so that we may join Christ at the beginning of his descent, and so that we may be equipped as he is equipped at the moment we begin our descent.

        If we are to join him in ruling in his Kingdom, we must receive new, glorified bodies. We must be perfect and sinless.

        It is actually less of a descent than a lightning strike. But the Kingdom descends from heaven inasmuch as it originates from God in heaven and is applied here on the earth. In that sense, it is a descent--an instantaneous one, in my opinion.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by randyk View Post
          For me, "Heaven" just means an area closer in proximity to God than our planet.

          Well, that's pretty convenient. Gives you a lot of lattitude. I believe the word heaven refers to the abode of God; specifically, the 3rd heaven as visited by Paul and John.

          We transcend earth to obtain something from God in "heaven."
          Specifically, all believers receive their new bodies (resurrected/changed) in the clouds, which are in earth's atmosphere.

          All the Scriptures speak of God's Kingdom coming from heaven.
          Prophecy regarding the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven to the new earth.

          Even the New Jerusalem, which is the home of the saints, will descend out of heaven from God. Does this mean saints have been in heaven before New Jerusalem descends from heaven? I think that is the logical conclusion.
          By the time Jesus returns to earth at the Second Advent, all dead believers are in heaven, the abode of God.

          Jerusalem is in heaven now, housing the saints, and it will return at the end of the Millennium, or before, depending on your eschatology.
          At the end of the Millennium, as Rev 21 clearly indicates.

          As I said, Jesus returned to heaven after his resurrection. I believe this is the same pattern the saints will follow. "He will return in the same way." (Acts 1) I believe that means we also will follow this pattern, rising from the dead, being caught up to heaven, and then returning with him, all in an instant.
          I see no point in some "instantaneous" visit to heaven and a return back to earth. And I don't see any pattern between Jesus and ourselves, other than His coming in clouds, and us meeting Him in clouds.

          When Paul speaks of putting on our heavenly attire, he is suggesting that we get that attire from God in heaven, and not here on the earth.
          Seems kind of a stretch to me. I see that as the same as "putting on Christ" or "putting on the new man".

          We must go to heaven to receive it from Christ in heaven.
          The problem is that there are no verses that indicate this. One must speculate.

          And then we will return with him, to rule on the earth in God's Kingdom.
          Who are you referring to, by "we"? All dead saints accompany Him on His Second Coming. And all living believers will join THEM in the clouds.

          2 Cor 5.2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling,
          I would suggest Paul was referring to our new bodies. Where we will "dwell".

          The context for v.2 is th previous verse: "1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."

          So we see that Paul is comparing/contrasting our "earthly tent", meaning our earthly bodies, with an "eternal house", which will be our new bodies.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post

            The NJ is the START of the NHNE on earth and IT comes down with Jesus at His coming - for the NJ is His Bride, and we come with Him at His return!
            NJ is not the start of the NHNE. The NH NE starts first, then NJ comes down. NJ also does not come down at the second coming. NJ is only called the bride because the bride will dwell there. In Revelation 21, the NJ coming down is not the second coming timeframe.


            I am highlighting that it is eisegesis to say that the 7th Trumpet MUST BE the Last
            That's not eisegesis. You are only trying to hide your own eisegesis by falsely claiming I am using it. There are only 7 trumpets and the 7th is the last one. Inserting an 8th trumpet is a true example of eisegesis.





            Now according to YOUR claim, ALL this happens at the 7th Trumpet. However the dead are NOT judged when the 7th Trumpet is blown
            The dead in Christ are judged and resurrected at the 7th trump.




            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
              T There are only 7 trumpets and the 7th is the last one. Inserting an 8th trumpet is a true example of eisegesis.
              The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the 7 trumpet judgments. But there is another set of judgments, called the bowl judgments that come AFTER the trumpet judgments. There is NO reason to assume the "last trumpet" that announces the Second Coming is the 7th trumpet in the trumpet judgements.

              Wow. Talk about presumption.

              The dead in Christ are judged and resurrected at the 7th trump.
              So, where do they sit and watch during the REST of the Tribulation?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the 7 trumpet judgments. But there is another set of judgments, called the bowl judgments that come AFTER the trumpet judgments.
                So? Those aren't trumpets.

                There is NO reason to assume the "last trumpet" that announces the Second Coming is the 7th trumpet in the trumpet judgements.
                Yes there is no need to assume it because it's a fact. There are only 7 end times trumpets. The idea of an 8th does not come from the bible.

                So, where do they sit and watch during the REST of the Tribulation?
                There is no "rest of the Tribulation". It's over at the last/7th trump. That is when the wrath of God begins.






                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                  Neither Peter or John support a second coming NHNE.
                  They do support it.
                  They both were hanging on Jesus every word....unlike yourself.

                  It only takes place after the GWTJ is over.
                  Yes It does, as Jesus fully explained in Matt 25.....when he comes again .



                  There is no way the wicked will live one second upon the new Earth.
                  Very true. Jesus coming to restore all things never includes the wicked.
                  And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

                    They do support it.
                    They both were hanging on Jesus every word....unlike yourself.
                    Don't be rude and make personal insults.



                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                      The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the 7 trumpet judgments. But there is another set of judgments, called the bowl judgments that come AFTER the trumpet judgments.
                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      So? Those aren't trumpets.
                      Right. And your view has Jesus returning in the MIDDLE of the Tribulation, if you don't really understand your own position. The trumpet judgments are actually near the end of the FIRST half of the Trib. That's ridiculous. Jesus comes at the end, and the trumpet judgments AREN'T at the end. That's the point which you seem to not grasp.

                      Yes there is no need to assume it because it's a fact. There are only 7 end times trumpets. The idea of an 8th does not come from the bible.
                      Then go ahead and defend the view that Jesus returns in the middle of the Trib.

                      There is no "rest of the Tribulation". It's over at the last/7th trump. That is when the wrath of God begins.
                      There are scholars who are way smarter than either you or I who claim Rev 4-11 cover the first half of the Trib and ch 12-19 is the second half.

                      There is no defense for your view.

                      You have to "re-arrange" the whole Trib to fit your claim.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        NJ is not the start of the NHNE. The NH NE starts first, then NJ comes down. NJ also does not come down at the second coming. NJ is only called the bride because the bride will dwell there. In Revelation 21, the NJ coming down is not the second coming timeframe.
                        Nope the NJ is at the START of the NE (which is part of the NHNE).
                        The NJ comes down at the second coming, as the Bride has a dwelling place which the Bridegroom is presently preparing.
                        Where do you think the Bride lives DURING the MK?

                        That's not eisegesis. You are only trying to hide your own eisegesis by falsely claiming I am using it. There are only 7 trumpets and the 7th is the last one. Inserting an 8th trumpet is a true example of eisegesis.
                        That is EXACTLY what eisegesis is.
                        There are a group of 7 Trumpets but NOWHERE does Revelation claim those are the ONLY trumpets.
                        I don't insert any 8th Trumpet into the 7 for that would be eisegesis.
                        Instead I note that just as there are 7 Kings and an 8th, so I also note there are 7 trumpets but also another, which would be an 8th.

                        The dead in Christ are judged and resurrected at the 7th trump.
                        Nope, there are NO dead in Christ. It is NOT possible to be dead AND be in Christ.
                        Either you are dead IN your sins OR you are alive IN Christ.
                        We also do NOT face judgement:
                        Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

                        Do you NOT accept this CLEAR statement of Jesus?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          [SIZE=16px]We are told it takes a second of time, in the "twinkling of an eye." Yes, that's the change.
                          What scripture says this? There is NOT one.
                          What scripture says is the CHANGE happens in an instant and I gave you the verses:
                          1Co 15:51 & 52 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

                          Note the CHANGE happens in a moment AT the Last Trumpet. The dead are also raised at the Last Trumpet and so people mix up the two, but ONLY the CHANGE is stated as being in the twinkling of an eye.

                          How else can we be caught up to meet him in the sky unless it takes place instantly? It's not like we have to take a plane, or as if it takes God time to get us from A to B.
                          How long did Jesus take to ascend? How long Elijah?
                          It was a visible ascension, but beyond that we have no details.
                          However it is also NOT teleportation
                          There is NOTHING which infers that it is instantaneous, in FACT the only inference is that there is a variety of speeds, for the dead are raised FIRST, but we catch them up and meet them in the air with Jesus. You confuse a scriptural FACT of the twinkling of the eye for the CHANGE, and a presumption based on nothing but your own view of the length of the ascension to meet Him. It could be at the speed a plane rises, we don't know and are NOT told.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            What scripture says this? There is NOT one.
                            What scripture says is the CHANGE happens in an instant and I gave you the verses:
                            1Co 15:51 & 52 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

                            Note the CHANGE happens in a moment AT the Last Trumpet. The dead are also raised at the Last Trumpet and so people mix up the two, but ONLY the CHANGE is stated as being in the twinkling of an eye.


                            How long did Jesus take to ascend? How long Elijah?
                            It was a visible ascension, but beyond that we have no details.
                            However it is also NOT teleportation
                            There is NOTHING which infers that it is instantaneous, in FACT the only inference is that there is a variety of speeds, for the dead are raised FIRST, but we catch them up and meet them in the air with Jesus. You confuse a scriptural FACT of the twinkling of the eye for the CHANGE, and a presumption based on nothing but your own view of the length of the ascension to meet Him. It could be at the speed a plane rises, we don't know and are NOT told.
                            I told you:
                            "It is actually less of a descent than a lightning strike."

                            This is based on what Jesus said in Matt 24:27.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                              No, the NHNE is in Revelation 21 and that is not the time of the second coming. You obviously don't understand anything about the timing of the second coming or the NHNE.
                              I concur. Spot on.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                                Here you make the SAME error you complain about above:
                                Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
                                You say that sinners will not see the meeting in the air? Yet what scripture do you base this upon? This is simply a fanciful claim. Why won't people see Him? This is the Day of His return and He will destroy the AC and the armies of the AC.
                                There's no error in my exegesis because I pointed out the distinction between the meet in the air (1 Thess 4:17) and His Glorious return when all eyes shall see him (Rev 1:7). What is fanciful and bizarre coming from someone like you that ought to know better is the assumption that the sinner left behind after the resurrection/rapture will actually see Jesus welcoming his saints in the air! You might as well claim that people of the earth will see the saints rise from their grave and the living drop their clothes and float up to the sky!

                                The language is clear and unambiguous. One says that the saints will meet the Lord in the air while the other, (pertaining to his return) says that all eyes shall see him. Is there anyone who can't see these two events are separate and independent of the other? But you're conflating them as one and the same!

                                Even baby Christians know it is impossible for mortals to see immortals. I also explained the reason the Lord will allow the wicked people on earth to see his return. Furthermore, we are told that the rapture will occur at the twinkle of an eye; again to assume the left behind will see the faithful in that instant floating to the air to meet Jesus, is the figment of someone's imagination.

                                The problem you refuse to deal with is the timeline of your eschatology. So far, it's nothing more than hit and miss. You got some right and a whole lot, wrong. For example, if the meet in the air is the Lord's actual return, where does Rev 19:6,7,8 & 12-14 fit in your narrative, before the meeting in the air or after?

                                The very fact that Rev 19:7 is the Bride is making herself ready means she is NOT YET with Him.
                                Now you use the KJV but the word is simply gune in Greek.
                                Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; (ESV)
                                The word gune is used for woman, and can mean simply woman or betrothed / bride or wife.
                                It is also used for someone who is to be a wife as shown in Rev 21:
                                Rev 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

                                A woman makes herself ready for her marriage BEFORE she is married, and the very clear sentiment expressed in the first part of the verse is that the marriage has come and NOT that it has happened (in the past).
                                The entire picture therefore is a woman ON her marriage day, and NOT a woman who was married some months before.
                                Rev 19 therefore paints a picture which is different to what you propose, and that this is the Day of marriage and there is no rapture PRIOR to this event.
                                Later we have the Bridegroom leave heaven to GET His Bride with His armies, which again points to the Bride NOT being with Him at that time.
                                The KJV is written in Elizabethan or Shakespearean English as it's commonly known. It is easy to understand once you know the wordplay. Example, KJV says "the marriage of the Lamb is come" The ESV, says "the marriage of the Lamb has come"...both translations say the same thing. The difference is the ESV's modern structure where 'has', replaced 'is'.

                                Secondly, the bride (the church) has been making herself ready for her husband (Christ) for 2000 years and still counting! In your hurry to repudiate my position, you fail to exercise the simplest of diligence in understanding what you are rejecting. For example, I never said that "the marriage has occurred months before". I don't know where you got that? Please cite where I said so? My view rather is that the bride is now ready for the marriage and this could only have been said because the resurrection/rapture has taken place. Thus, she is now a "wife" for the first time.

                                The proof that Jesus took the saints back to heaven is simple; John saw this vision (marriage of the Lamb) in heaven, not the sky/air where the 'meet' took place. Furthermore, the word 'multitude' in scripture is used to denote people. In Rev 19:6 John saw a great multitude in heaven, angels who make up the larger part of beings in heaven have never been described as a multitude. If I am mistaken, please correct me.

                                You made further contradicting statements. See below:

                                "Rev 19 therefore paints a picture which is different to what you propose, and that this is the Day of marriage and there is no rapture PRIOR to this event. Later we have the Bridegroom leave heaven to GET His Bride with His armies, which again points to the Bride NOT being with Him at that time"
                                • As I said previously, the church has been readying herself for 2000 years, so why announce that she has made herself ready when she is not, given that the RAPTURE/RESURRECTION has not occurred? Can you not see how impossible and illogical this view is?
                                • According to you, the resurrection/rapture has not occurred in Rev 19, yet John says in the v8 that the saints are given to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white representing the righteousness of the saints. The statement is a present tense rather than the future. Below is the passage.
                                Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

                                Finally, to miss the point that the 'armies' that accompany Jesus on his return comprises of the saints, and the angels is a truly poor understanding of what the scripture says. The context agrees with me.

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