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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post

    Right. And your view has Jesus returning in the MIDDLE of the Tribulation
    No, the second coming comes AFTER the trib has ended.

    The trumpet judgments are actually near the end of the FIRST half of the Trib. That's ridiculous. Jesus comes at the end, and the trumpet judgments AREN'T at the end. That's the point which you seem to not grasp.
    You are wrong. The Great Tribulation happens with the 6th trumpet and it is over when the 7th sounds.

    Then go ahead and defend the view that Jesus returns in the middle of the Trib.
    This is a strawman fallacy. No one believes Jesus comes mid-trib, nor is the 7th trump mid-trib.


    There are scholars who are way smarter than either you or I who claim Rev 4-11 cover the first half of the Trib and ch 12-19 is the second half.
    None of that is correct. The last half of Revelation 11 covers the end of the 42 month trib while the end of Revelation 12 shows Satan going to start it, and Revelation 13 shows that start of the trib.




    There is no defense for your view.

    You have to "re-arrange" the whole Trib to fit your claim.
    At least I am not promoting this weird 7 year/84 month trib with trumpets only sounding in the first half. There's a lot of bad theology out there but this is about the worst exegesis of Revelation I have ever seen.


    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
      Nope the NJ is at the START of the NE (which is part of the NHNE).
      The NJ comes down at the second coming, as the Bride has a dwelling place which the Bridegroom is presently preparing.
      Where do you think the Bride lives DURING the MK?
      Where do you think the bride is at right before the 7th trump? In some in heaven and some on the Earth yet NJ is in heaven only. Just because the resurrection and rapture happen and all live on the Earth does not mean NJ also comes. It remains in heaven until the NHNE in Revelation 21 just as John wrote and I am going to agree with John's version and not yours.

      .


      That is EXACTLY what eisegesis is.
      There are a group of 7 Trumpets but NOWHERE does Revelation claim those are the ONLY trumpets.
      I don't insert any 8th Trumpet into the 7 for that would be eisegesis.
      Instead I note that just as there are 7 Kings and an 8th, so I also note there are 7 trumpets but also another, which would be an 8th.
      The 7/8th kings does not support the eisegesis of an 8th trump. No where in Revelation is there any support for an extra trumpet. You are just inserting that yourself. It doesn't exist.

      Nope, there are NO dead in Christ. It is NOT possible to be dead AND be in Christ.
      Your going way off into the deep end. You really don't understand scripture and should not be teaching your version of it.

      1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



      Either you are dead IN your sins OR you are alive IN Christ.
      We also do NOT face judgement:
      Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

      Do you NOT accept this CLEAR statement of Jesus?
      That has nothing to do with people dying as Christians and remaining dead until the resurrection.



      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
        Where do you think the bride is at right before the 7th trump? In some in heaven and some on the Earth yet NJ is in heaven only. Just because the resurrection and rapture happen and all live on the Earth does not mean NJ also comes. It remains in heaven until the NHNE in Revelation 21 just as John wrote and I am going to agree with John's version and not yours.
        The Bride is NOT yet prepared at the 7th Trumpet.
        The Bride is NEVER in heaven UNTIL she is taken up to heaven at the Rapture.
        I am 100% in agreement with what John put in Rev 21. Nothing I have put contradicts that.
        Where you seem to be confused is that the NHNE of Rev 21 is an explanation of the MK and NOT about some period of time AFTER the GWToJ.

        The 7/8th kings does not support the eisegesis of an 8th trump. No where in Revelation is there any support for an extra trumpet. You are just inserting that yourself. It doesn't exist.
        You are TOTALLY clueless.
        An 8th Trumpet means it is NOT one of the 7. It is NOT stated in Revelation, which does NOT mean it does not happen.
        The eisegesis is to say the Last Trumpet (which is NOT stated in Revelation) IS the 7th! You are ADDING the word LAST into when it is called the 7th.
        Now what you SHOULD do, and what I have done, is say, WHAT occurs when the Last Trumpet is blown (as per Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 etc.) and then to place that event in its CONTEXT in revelation. You discover it is NOT when the 7th Trumpet is blown.

        Your going way off into the deep end. You really don't understand scripture and should not be teaching your version of it.
        1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
        That has nothing to do with people dying as Christians and remaining dead until the resurrection.
        The point I was making is that God is NOT the God of the dead but the Living.
        IOW Christians DIE and so are called DEAD. However in Christ they are deemed to be ALIVE!
        There is NO judgement as per John 5:24 for those who are IN Christ, for as Christians we DIED already with Him and so have His LIFE.
        Therefore Rev 11:18 is NOT speaking about those who are IN Christ, but about these:
        Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

        The dead in Rev 20:12 are NOT those who died whilst being IN Christ, but those who died NOT being IN Christ.
        These are the dead who are judged in Rev 11:18
        Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged
        Notice that those who are His servants are rewarded, which is in CONTRAST to the dead who are judged.
        The dead are NOT judged at the 7th Trumpet, nor are we judged at His return, but rather we are rewarded.
        Therefore your claim that the 7th Trumpet is the MOMENT these things happen is simply a contrivance of your own imagination.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by randyk View Post
          I told you:
          "It is actually less of a descent than a lightning strike."
          This is based on what Jesus said in Matt 24:27.
          Actually Matt 24:27 does NOT speak about the duration of the Rapture nor the ascension.
          Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
          What this verse states is that when Jesus returns it will be visible from the East to the West. This is not about a DURATION, but about a BRIGHTNESS, and we will shine ALSO when we are CHANGED. Now the CHANGE is like lightning and so that brightness may happen and look like lightning, but this doesn't alter that the rapture itself is not stated as being in a twinkling.
          I expect it will be more like meteors in the sky, which will draw all eyes to Jesus! Not falling to earth, but as shooting stars going to the SAME point where He is!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            There's no error in my exegesis because I pointed out the distinction between the meet in the air (1 Thess 4:17) and His Glorious return when all eyes shall see him (Rev 1:7). What is fanciful and bizarre coming from someone like you that ought to know better is the assumption that the sinner left behind after the resurrection/rapture will actually see Jesus welcoming his saints in the air! You might as well claim that people of the earth will see the saints rise from their grave and the living drop their clothes and float up to the sky!
            If you CREATE something fanciful THEN it will seem fanciful.
            All eyes SEE Him at His return as Matt 24:27 notes. This return is also the SAME event when we are Raptured.
            This is indisputable (though Pretrib tries to argue otherwise).
            WHY can a sinner NOT see Jesus descend, when scripture says He WILL BE SEEN!
            WHY won't those on earth be able to see the dead rise PHYSICALLY?
            WHY will the living drop their clothes? It says we will be clothed with the IMPERISHABLE, so rather than removing clothing the picture given in scripture is of putting on MORE clothing. This time a BRIGHT raiment, fine linen.

            The language is clear and unambiguous. One says that the saints will meet the Lord in the air while the other, (pertaining to his return) says that all eyes shall see him. Is there anyone who can't see these two events are separate and independent of the other? But you're conflating them as one and the same!
            How anyone can claim they are separate is stretching things.
            We have the Lord coming down and we have the Lord being seen coming down, and yet you say they are NOT the SAME event. Weird reasoning.
            Now our ascending is simply part of the events of His descent.

            Even baby Christians know it is impossible for mortals to see immortals. I also explained the reason the Lord will allow the wicked people on earth to see his return. Furthermore, we are told that the rapture will occur at the twinkle of an eye; again to assume the left behind will see the faithful in that instant floating to the air to meet Jesus, is the figment of someone's imagination.
            I do worry about your baby Christians.
            Could Adam and Eve see God (even after they sinned)? Certainly they could.
            Could Abraham see the Lord (and angels)? Certainly he could.
            Could the disciples see Jesus after He had been raised from the dead? Certainly they could.
            It is very possible for mortals to see immortals. Moreover when someone is raised form the dead the sight of them can give glory to God
            We are NOT told anywhere that the Rapture is in the twinkling of an eye. It is the CHANGE from mortality to immortality that occurs in the twinkling of an eye.
            If I have a PHYSICAL body then it is a figment of someone's imagination to say I will be invisible. I could be turned invisible but why would God do that?

            The problem you refuse to deal with is the timeline of your eschatology. So far, it's nothing more than hit and miss. You got some right and a whole lot, wrong. For example, if the meet in the air is the Lord's actual return, where does Rev 19:6,7,8 & 12-14 fit in your narrative, before the meeting in the air or after?
            I have no issues with my chronology.
            Rev 19:6 - 14 all occur BEFORE we are raptured. Note that in verse 14 the armies of heaven are descending with Jesus. Now some say this includes the saints, while I think it refers to the SAME armies which defeated Satan in Rev 12:7. However verse 14 could refer to us meeting Him in the clouds (heaven in Greek) and then returning with Him, for we are clothed AT THAT MOMENT when we meet Him (or just before).

            The KJV is written in Elizabethan or Shakespearean English as it's commonly known. It is easy to understand once you know the wordplay. Example, KJV says "the marriage of the Lamb is come" The ESV, says "the marriage of the Lamb has come"...both translations say the same thing. The difference is the ESV's modern structure where 'has', replaced 'is'.
            And? I go back to the Greek and the Grammar it uses.

            Secondly, the bride (the church) has been making herself ready for her husband (Christ) for 2000 years and still counting! In your hurry to repudiate my position, you fail to exercise the simplest of diligence in understanding what you are rejecting. For example, I never said that "the marriage has occurred months before". I don't know where you got that? Please cite where I said so? My view rather is that the bride is now ready for the marriage and this could only have been said because the resurrection/rapture has taken place. Thus, she is now a "wife" for the first time.
            This making ready continues UNTIL the end of the GT and the Rapture happens. However she is NOT a wife except that she is to be the wife.

            The proof that Jesus took the saints back to heaven is simple; John saw this vision (marriage of the Lamb) in heaven, not the sky/air where the 'meet' took place. Furthermore, the word 'multitude' in scripture is used to denote people. In Rev 19:6 John saw a great multitude in heaven, angels who make up the larger part of beings in heaven have never been described as a multitude. If I am mistaken, please correct me.
            Nope John was NOT in heaven when He saw this. In Rev 19:17 John is saying the birds are overhead, which places him on the earth.
            Rev 19 is also about the marriage feast and NOT the marriage itself.
            A marriage comprises various parts and you may need to understand how marriage is depicted in scripture to get this.
            However in short we have:
            The Bridegroom leaves His Father's house to get His bride.
            He brings His bride to the Feast.
            The Vows are made and the Feast occurs.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
              Actually Matt 24:27 does NOT speak about the duration of the Rapture nor the ascension.
              Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
              What this verse states is that when Jesus returns it will be visible from the East to the West. This is not about a DURATION, but about a BRIGHTNESS, and we will shine ALSO when we are CHANGED. Now the CHANGE is like lightning and so that brightness may happen and look like lightning, but this doesn't alter that the rapture itself is not stated as being in a twinkling.
              I expect it will be more like meteors in the sky, which will draw all eyes to Jesus! Not falling to earth, but as shooting stars going to the SAME point where He is!
              I disagree. The entire event is put in simple terms, and not partitioned into separate events, a coming, a rapture, a Rapture, a change. They are all simply associated with a single event, the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds of heaven, as indicated in Dan 7. It is all based on Dan 7, and Daniel's vision of the Son of Man coming with the clouds.

              This is when the saints are saved, and this is when the Kingdom comes, as well as the time when Antichrist is defeated. It is not all partitioned into steps, or stages. The idiosyncrasies of each event are not detailed, and thus, NT references to the same also are not detailed.

              Paul in 1 Cor 15 focuses on one particular element in this--the resurrection and transformation of the saints, but he does not thereby distinguish this from the coming of Christ, the coming of the Kingdom, the defeat of Antichrist, or the Rapture of the Church. They are all a description of the 2nd Coming, at which *all* these things happen.

              So when his coming is described as lightning, it is depicting all of these events happening simultaneously, the coming of Christ with his Kingdom, the destruction and judgment of the enemy, the salvation and transformation of the saints, and our gathering to him--it all takes place in a single instant.

              Describing it as lightning gives it the character not just of universality and brightness, but also of suddenness. To pick and choose which characteristics to use, and which events to apply them to, is purely subjective and extra material that just isn't there, nor is that the apparent intention of these references. No effort is made at describing steps leading somewhere, but only to show the end product of all of this prophetic development--the coming of the Kingdom of Christ.

              The suddenness of both our change and of our ascension is a split-second thing. Yes, it is specifically applied to our transformation, but only because that is the part Paul happens to be talking about in 1 Cor 15. His intention is not to separate our change from our rapture.

              On the contrary, Paul and all other NT authors appear to assume all of these events happen simultaneously when they refer to Christ's 2nd Coming. There is no differentiation between Christ's coming, the Rapture of the Church, the defeat of the Antichrist, our transformation, and the coming of the Kingdom. They are all viewed as the hope of the Church--a single event.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                Right. And your view has Jesus returning in the MIDDLE of the Tribulation
                Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                No, the second coming comes AFTER the trib has ended.
                Yes, that is correct. But your error is that the 7 trumpet judgments are the SECOND set of judgments, probably near the middle of the Trib. But you don't seem to get it.


                You are wrong. The Great Tribulation happens with the 6th trumpet and it is over when the 7th sounds.
                You have no evidence for such an idea. In fact, the Tribulation begins with 7 seal judgments, then 7 trumpet judgments, and finally 7 bowl judgments.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                  The Bride is NOT yet prepared at the 7th Trumpet.
                  The Bride is NEVER in heaven UNTIL she is taken up to heaven at the Rapture.
                  The rapture only takes people to the first heaven, the clouds of the Earth not to the third heaven.


                  I am 100% in agreement with what John put in Rev 21. Nothing I have put contradicts that.
                  Where you seem to be confused is that the NHNE of Rev 21 is an explanation of the MK and NOT about some period of time AFTER the GWToJ.
                  And that is false.


                  You are TOTALLY clueless.
                  An 8th Trumpet means it is NOT one of the 7. It is NOT stated in Revelation, which does NOT mean it does not happen.
                  The eisegesis is to say the Last Trumpet (which is NOT stated in Revelation) IS the 7th! You are ADDING the word LAST into when it is called the 7th.
                  Now what you SHOULD do, and what I have done, is say, WHAT occurs when the Last Trumpet is blown (as per Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 etc.) and then to place that event in its CONTEXT in revelation. You discover it is NOT when the 7th Trumpet is blown.
                  The "You are TOTALLY clueless." is only correct about you and these nonsense theologies you have invented. No one goes to heaven at the rapture and there is no more trumpets sounding after the 7th and Revelation 21 is not the Millennium. All those have been easily disproven and let's not forget the whole "There is no dead in Christ in the bible" fiasco.


                  The dead in Rev 20:12 are NOT those who died whilst being IN Christ, but those who died NOT being IN Christ.
                  Enjoying that strawman fallacy much?



                  These are the dead who are judged in Rev 11:18
                  Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged
                  Notice that those who are His servants are rewarded, which is in CONTRAST to the dead who are judged.
                  The dead are NOT judged at the 7th Trumpet, nor are we judged at His return, but rather we are rewarded.
                  That reward is the result of a judgment. A judgment is simply a decision whether reward or punishment.

                  You should know that but you should know better on all these wrong things.


                  1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


                  Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

                  Even you know the unsaved dead are judged after the thousand years not here at the 7th trump. The dead being judged here are the dead in Christ. Only the living unsaved are being punished at this time not the unsaved dead.




                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post

                    Yes, that is correct. But your error is that the 7 trumpet judgments are the SECOND set of judgments, probably near the middle of the Trib. But you don't seem to get it.
                    No one can "get" something that is wrong. The trumpets start sounding before the Great Tribulation even starts and the last trumpet is the 7th and that means the Great Tribulation has ended and the time of God's wrath begins. The Great Tribulation is 42 months long not 84 months as you believe.




                    You have no evidence for such an idea. In fact, the Tribulation begins with 7 seal judgments, then 7 trumpet judgments, and finally 7 bowl judgments.
                    The Great Tribulation starts at the 6th trump not before that and certainly not at the time of the seals. This is when it starts:


                    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
                    Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

                    This is when it ends:

                    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
                    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

                    The second woe is also the 6th trump so thousand years Great Tribulation took place during the 6th trump.

                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                      Don't be rude and make personal insults.


                      I was not being rude and making insults toward you.
                      I was stating a fact or 2 or 3.

                      You lean more on your own interpretation of Revelation, rather than letting Jesus own words regarding the end dominate your reasonings regarding the Lord further revelation to John. You create Jesus having 2 different points of view.
                      Read my previous posts and scriptures again.

                      And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                        I disagree. The entire event is put in simple terms, and not partitioned into separate events, a coming, a rapture, a Rapture, a change. They are all simply associated with a single event, the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds of heaven, as indicated in Dan 7. It is all based on Dan 7, and Daniel's vision of the Son of Man coming with the clouds.
                        This is when the saints are saved, and this is when the Kingdom comes, as well as the time when Antichrist is defeated. It is not all partitioned into steps, or stages. The idiosyncrasies of each event are not detailed, and thus, NT references to the same also are not detailed.
                        Paul in 1 Cor 15 focuses on one particular element in this--the resurrection and transformation of the saints, but he does not thereby distinguish this from the coming of Christ, the coming of the Kingdom, the defeat of Antichrist, or the Rapture of the Church. They are all a description of the 2nd Coming, at which *all* these things happen.
                        So when his coming is described as lightning, it is depicting all of these events happening simultaneously, the coming of Christ with his Kingdom, the destruction and judgment of the enemy, the salvation and transformation of the saints, and our gathering to him--it all takes place in a single instant.
                        You CONFUSE a description of what its visibility will be like with the event itself.
                        There is one event but which has various things happening in it.
                        When Jesus says it is LIKE something then it means that some ASPECT of it is similar to the picture used.
                        The AC is NOT destroyed like lightning in an instant, so the description is EXACTLY as Jesus specified, relating to its VISIBILITY and not to something else.

                        Describing it as lightning gives it the character not just of universality and brightness, but also of suddenness. To pick and choose which characteristics to use, and which events to apply them to, is purely subjective and extra material that just isn't there, nor is that the apparent intention of these references. No effort is made at describing steps leading somewhere, but only to show the end product of all of this prophetic development--the coming of the Kingdom of Christ.
                        It's suddenness is still related to its VISIBILITY. It is NOT seen and then it IS seen, but that does not mean it is only seen for that moment., but rather as it is not seen and then it is.

                        The suddenness of both our change and of our ascension is a split-second thing. Yes, it is specifically applied to our transformation, but only because that is the part Paul happens to be talking about in 1 Cor 15. His intention is not to separate our change from our rapture.
                        Nope, it is ONLY applied to our transformation and NOT to our ascension.
                        Paul has us ascend and THERE is a MOMENT when we CHANGE as part of that event.

                        On the contrary, Paul and all other NT authors appear to assume all of these events happen simultaneously when they refer to Christ's 2nd Coming. There is no differentiation between Christ's coming, the Rapture of the Church, the defeat of the Antichrist, our transformation, and the coming of the Kingdom. They are all viewed as the hope of the Church--a single event.
                        On the contrary NONE of the NT authors have all the events happen simultaneously. What they have is that they have a chronicity. He descends, we ascend, we change, He defeats the AC, the Kingdom is then come. These are NOT at the SAME moment, nor happening within a split-second - ONLY the CHANGE is shown as taking a SPLIT second, others all have a point where they are NOT and then they are, but the duration of those events have lengths, such as a Day or a thousand years.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          The rapture only takes people to the first heaven, the clouds of the Earth not to the third heaven.
                          Glad we agree on something.

                          And that is false.
                          Simply saying something is false, proves or disproves NOTHING.
                          Isaiah 65 & 66 speak of the NHNE with sinners and people dying, Rev 21 & 22 has people as sinners outside the NJ. BOTH speak of the MK period.
                          Are you going to argue that Isaiah 65 & 66 speaks of AFTER the GWToJ? Please do try to explain it then and why there would therefore be TWO NHNEs.
                          It is not false in anyway, and actually explains everything according to PostTrib Premil understanding properly.

                          The "You are TOTALLY clueless." is only correct about you and these nonsense theologies you have invented. No one goes to heaven at the rapture and there is no more trumpets sounding after the 7th and Revelation 21 is not the Millennium. All those have been easily disproven and let's not forget the whole "There is no dead in Christ in the bible" fiasco.
                          As the clouds ARE in heaven (the 1st heaven) and therefore I have NOT made a nonsense claim, and as there is a trumpet when Jesus descends from heaven as CLEARLY shown in 1 Thess 4:
                          1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
                          This clear matches Rev 19:
                          Rev 19:11 - 14 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war... And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

                          Enjoying that strawman fallacy much?
                          What strawman? Are those in Rev 20:12 those who are dead in Christ of 1 Thess 4?
                          Certainly NOT.

                          That reward is the result of a judgment. A judgment is simply a decision whether reward or punishment.
                          You should know that but you should know better on all these wrong things.
                          1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
                          Wow!
                          Do you NOT understand that this judgement of 1 Peter 4 is while we are living BEFORE Jesus returns?
                          Moreover the judgement in Rev 11:18 is NOT for reward

                          Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

                          Even you know the unsaved dead are judged after the thousand years not here at the 7th trump. The dead being judged here are the dead in Christ. Only the living unsaved are being punished at this time not the unsaved dead.
                          No one is being judged AT the 7th Trumpet, just as NO ONE is being raptured at the 7th Trumpet.
                          All the 7th trumpet does is announce a CHANGE, just as the 6th and the 5th Trumpet before it.
                          With whom are the nations angry AFTER Jesus returns? Yet clearly this is stated as happening AFTER the 7th Trumpet is blown.
                          The first part then of this is the Great Tribulation STARTS with the 7th Trumpet, and the nations being angry against the 2W and those who followed them, and the Church that bears His Name. Then we have His wrath during the 42 months of the GT through the 7 Vials.
                          Then He returns and rewards His slaves. Then the dead are judged.

                          It is by eisegesis you change the 7th Trumpet to being the Last that ALL your chronology gets messed up.

                          Comment


                          • I said:
                            "But your error is that the 7 trumpet judgments are the SECOND set of judgments, probably near the middle of the Trib. But you don't seem to get it."
                            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            No one can "get" something that is wrong. The trumpets start sounding before the Great Tribulation even starts and the last trumpet is the 7th and that means the Great Tribulation has ended and the time of God's wrath begins.
                            How do you expect anyone to accept your wild imagination when a straightforward reading of Revelation refutes it. The trumpet judgments are the SECOND set of judgments.

                            To believe your imagination, one would have to tear out the pages of the Bible and re-arrange them to fit it.

                            The Great Tribulation is 42 months long not 84 months as you believe.
                            The reign of the Beast (antichrist) is 3.5 years. But there are 3.5 years of God's wrath before that.

                            The Great Tribulation starts at the 6th trump not before that and certainly not at the time of the seals. This is when it starts:
                            Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
                            Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
                            This is when the beast begins his rule.

                            This is when it ends:

                            Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
                            Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
                            Interesting. So, reading through Revelation, the Trib ends before it begins. I do believe that the number 11 precedes the number 12. And you have it exactly backwards.

                            Your imagination has no support or evidence from Scripture.

                            The second woe is also the 6th trump so thousand years Great Tribulation took place during the 6th trump.
                            More imagination.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                              Nope, there are NO dead in Christ. It is NOT possible to be dead AND be in Christ.
                              Either you are dead IN your sins OR you are alive IN Christ.
                              I think I get your overall point... but what are you saying exactly (in the bold ^ )... because the phrase used in 1Th4:16 *does* say "the dead in Christ [shall rise first]" but this is governed by the surrounding text (i.e. v.14's "those having fallen asleep through Jesus")... so are you saying the translators flubbed up? (i.e. that the text doesn't actually *say* that phrase), or that Paul was using an illegitimate terminology in v.16... or what? Or were you making a point (I may have missed by not reading further back into the thread) about the timing issues and that sort of point, here? Just wondering. Forgive me, but (just having popped back into this thread, I may have missed your train of thought) it sounds to me as though you are not acknowledging verse 16's wording... but I'm not sure and could be wrong about how I'm reading you. Thanks.

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                              • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                                You CONFUSE a description of what its visibility will be like with the event itself.
                                There is one event but which has various things happening in it.
                                When Jesus says it is LIKE something then it means that some ASPECT of it is similar to the picture used.
                                The AC is NOT destroyed like lightning in an instant, so the description is EXACTLY as Jesus specified, relating to its VISIBILITY and not to something else.


                                It's suddenness is still related to its VISIBILITY. It is NOT seen and then it IS seen, but that does not mean it is only seen for that moment., but rather as it is not seen and then it is.


                                Nope, it is ONLY applied to our transformation and NOT to our ascension.
                                Paul has us ascend and THERE is a MOMENT when we CHANGE as part of that event.


                                On the contrary NONE of the NT authors have all the events happen simultaneously. What they have is that they have a chronicity. He descends, we ascend, we change, He defeats the AC, the Kingdom is then come. These are NOT at the SAME moment, nor happening within a split-second - ONLY the CHANGE is shown as taking a SPLIT second, others all have a point where they are NOT and then they are, but the duration of those events have lengths, such as a Day or a thousand years.

                                I'm not saying there aren't different aspects to each of these events--the coming of the Kingdom, the coming of Christ, our ascension, our transformation, the defeat of Antichrist, etc. Obviously you're right that the defeat of Antichrist is treated as an event that takes some time, that the coming of Christ is preceded by preliminary events, and that the transformation is instantaneous. Obviously, they are treated separately, and they each have their own particular time frame.

                                But what I am saying is that all of these separate events have a common point in time in which they are completed, and draw upon the same OT source for the description of the point in time in which it happens. They all relate to the moment at which Christ appears. And this is described by Jesus himself as "lightning."

                                And so, all of these events have a common point in time, described as lightning. Thus, all of the events are being described just as the transformation is described, as an instantaneous event in which Christ comes. It is the moment he arrives that lightning strikes, and appears as a "twinkling of an eye." It is a sudden judgment, as well as a sudden transformation. It is *not* just a sudden transformation, according to Jesus. Sorry, we disagree on this.

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