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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I don't have any problem with Daniel 7 being about earthly "sky" clouds. It supports the context of the passage that Jesus is going TO the 3rd heaven where the Father/ ancient of days resides., as well as preceding the coming of the kingdom, as demonstrated in Luke 21 and Rev 11.
    The difference being when He comes is also through the clouds.

    I disagree with your last statement.
    "1 Cor 15 makes no mention of clouds, but it is CLEARLY the SAME event as 1 Thes 4 which does"
    I didn't explicitly state it in post #4, but, based on how the gospel writers used the word anistemi, to refer to the post- resurrection ascension of Jesus on the same 3rd day after the crucifixion, AND where the Father dispensed to him the Holy Ghost and glory, BUT Paul's use of anistemi in 1Thess4 demonstrates that the eternal glory of the resurrection is also dispensed by the Father to the saints in similar ascension to the Father. This is also found here:
    1Th 3:13 KJV To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness BEFORE GOD, even our FATHER, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH all his saints.
    Contrary to the very common interpretation of 1 Thes 4, you do not find any conferment of immortality in that passage. You only find the dead in Christ rising_anistemi/ascending first, followed by those that are alive and remain rising too. Paul dispels the notion that the dead in Christ would not rise until the time when those who have no hope, rise at the end of the millennium. [This originated with the scripture that says, 'He that endures to the end shall be saved'].
    Christ comes with the saints to the Father to receive their eternal reward. The combined effects of 1 Thes 4 and 1Cor 15 is that the saints rise at the first trumpet, and the dead are judged and rewarded at the last trumpet, as Rev 11:15-18 states, as well as 1Cor15.
    Here you make NO sense. For Christ does NOT come to the Father with the saints, but it is the REVERSE, for the Father brings the saints with Him to Jesus:
    1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
    Those who sleep are brought by the Father to Jesus and so we have a DIRECT connection of a resurrection from the dead and the CHANGING of the dead to immortality.
    When someone who is dead is raised then are they raised temporarily to die again or are they AT THAT TIME clothed in immortality.
    Everything Paul writes shows that the gift of immortality is GIVEN at that time.
    1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
    Note that Paul declares the dead are raised imperishable. This statement ONLY refers to those raised as per 1 Thes 4 and does NOT refer to the rest of the dead raised AFTER the Millennium.
    It is the REST of the dead who are judged at the end of the Millennium and NOT at the Last Trumpet. There is NO trumpet connected with the raising of the rest of the dead ONLY with those who are His!

    I demonstrated, with the scriptures why, the coming of Jesus with clouds and glory [Matt 24:30, Mk 16:26, Luke 21:27], is NOT the 2nd advent. Neither is Dan 7:13,14. To substantiate the un-necessariness to the use of clouds in the 2nd advent of Jesus, you need to provide an exegetical example of the 2nd coming WITH clouds, elsewhere.
    No you failed to demonstrate this. You are arguing something as IF it is a given, when actually you are claiming it is such but with no such stricture given by scripture.
    When Jesus comes this IS His 2nd advent, for advent is about His coming. This is what the words mean and simply using a Latin form doesn't change the meaning. We have Him coming with clouds as I noted in Acts 1 and as is noted in 1 Thes 4.
    The burden actually falls on you to prove these are NOT His coming, and I can see no way you can do this.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
      The difference being when He comes is also through the clouds.


      Here you make NO sense. For Christ does NOT come to the Father with the saints, but it is the REVERSE, for the Father brings the saints with Him to Jesus:
      1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
      Those who sleep are brought by the Father to Jesus and so we have a DIRECT connection of a resurrection from the dead and the CHANGING of the dead to immortality.
      When someone who is dead is raised then are they raised temporarily to die again or are they AT THAT TIME clothed in immortality.
      Everything Paul writes shows that the gift of immortality is GIVEN at that time.
      1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
      1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
      Note that Paul declares the dead are raised imperishable. This statement ONLY refers to those raised as per 1 Thes 4 and does NOT refer to the rest of the dead raised AFTER the Millennium.
      It is the REST of the dead who are judged at the end of the Millennium and NOT at the Last Trumpet. There is NO trumpet connected with the raising of the rest of the dead ONLY with those who are His!


      No you failed to demonstrate this. You are arguing something as IF it is a given, when actually you are claiming it is such but with no such stricture given by scripture.
      When Jesus comes this IS His 2nd advent, for advent is about His coming. This is what the words mean and simply using a Latin form doesn't change the meaning. We have Him coming with clouds as I noted in Acts 1 and as is noted in 1 Thes 4.
      The burden actually falls on you to prove these are NOT His coming, and I can see no way you can do this.
      You are not grasping what I presented in the scripture. I will be brief.

      When the gospels reports the events of Jesus ""raising" someone from the dead, it always uses the word egeiro for their raising. When Jesus spoke of his raising from the dead, whenever he used the word anistemi, the scriptures clearly point to the disciples failure to understand until after he was raised (egeiro) from the dead. The point being that we now understand is that Jesus used the word, anistemi, to unequivocally refer to his ascension to the Father, and not to him being resurrected, egeiro.

      With that being said, we find Paul saying in 1Thess4 that all of the saints (both living and dead) shall rise, anistemi, not because Jesus rose, egeiro, from the dead, but we shall all rise, anistemi, because Jesus rose, anistemi from the dead, i.e., he ascended to the Father. There is no allusion to being raised, egeiro, from the dead in 1Thess4. It's all about rising to the Father.

      And looking at 1Cor15, we find just the opposite. This chapter is clearly about the resurrection from the dead. Only the word egeiro is used numerous times throughout the chapter. Never is the word anistemi used. Nor is there any mention of a coming of Jesus, anywhere. It's about being raised from the dead for the sake of the coming kingdom of God. As Paul stated, "flesh and BLOOD" shall not inherit the kingdom... at the last trumpet. And this is clearly what happens with the 7th/last trumpet. The dead are judged and saints and prophets are given their reward. 1Thess4 and 1Cor 15 are two distinct events.

      As far as the OD goes, there is no use discussing any further, because you do not include Jesus coming in the clouds as part of "when all these things happen", then, THAT DAY will be near.

      Be Blessed
      The PuP

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
        You are not grasping what I presented in the scripture. I will be brief.

        When the gospels reports the events of Jesus ""raising" someone from the dead, it always uses the word egeiro for their raising. When Jesus spoke of his raising from the dead, whenever he used the word anistemi, the scriptures clearly point to the disciples failure to understand until after he was raised (egeiro) from the dead. The point being that we now understand is that Jesus used the word, anistemi, to unequivocally refer to his ascension to the Father, and not to him being resurrected, egeiro.
        With that being said, we find Paul saying in 1Thess4 that all of the saints (both living and dead) shall rise, anistemi, not because Jesus rose, egeiro, from the dead, but we shall all rise, anistemi, because Jesus rose, anistemi from the dead, i.e., he ascended to the Father. There is no allusion to being raised, egeiro, from the dead in 1Thess4. It's all about rising to the Father.
        This is why you do NOT make sense, for in order to anistemi you MUST FIRST egeiro. In 1 Thes 4 Paul was NOT saying the dead remain dead. Instead he was noting that the dead are raised to life AND raised to meet Christ. IOW egeiro is CONTAINED within anistemi.

        And looking at 1Cor15, we find just the opposite. This chapter is clearly about the resurrection from the dead. Only the word egeiro is used numerous times throughout the chapter. Never is the word anistemi used. Nor is there any mention of a coming of Jesus, anywhere. It's about being raised from the dead for the sake of the coming kingdom of God. As Paul stated, "flesh and BLOOD" shall not inherit the kingdom... at the last trumpet. And this is clearly what happens with the 7th/last trumpet. The dead are judged and saints and prophets are given their reward. 1Thess4 and 1Cor 15 are two distinct events.
        No, we do NOT find any such OPPOSITE event. What we have is a raising of the dead to immortality which happens at a certain time, which time we ARE told happens AT THE rising to meet Jesus in the clouds. This is a COMPLIMENTARY statement and NOT an OPPOSITE at all.
        You see Jesus was egeiro AND anistemi, those who were egeiro BEFORE Jesus' death were NOT anistemi, but the promise for us is that IF we are dead we will egeiro, but those who are alive do NOT need egeiro but WILL also anistemi.
        When Paul said "flesh and blood" does NOT inherit, he was meaning that "flesh and blood ALONE" does not inherit, but that the Spirit is REQUIRED.
        The 7th trumpet is NOT the Last Trumpet. Simply the last in a sequence of 7.
        1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 are the SAME event. Now IF you are REALLY claiming the DEAD are anistemi (rising to Jesus) whilst remaining DEAD, then you have a truly weird idea of what will happen.

        As far as the OD goes, there is no use discussing any further, because you do not include Jesus coming in the clouds as part of "when all these things happen", then, THAT DAY will be near.
        As Jesus coming in the clouds speaks of the 1st heaven (which we call the sky) and as that happens when He returns as Acts 1 notes so I do not get why you say I am not including Jesus coming in the clouds as part of things. It IS that Day. One DotL among many!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
          This is why you do NOT make sense, for in order to anistemi you MUST FIRST egeiro. In 1 Thes 4 Paul was NOT saying the dead remain dead. Instead he was noting that the dead are raised to life AND raised to meet Christ. IOW egeiro is CONTAINED within anistemi.


          No, we do NOT find any such OPPOSITE event. What we have is a raising of the dead to immortality which happens at a certain time, which time we ARE told happens AT THE rising to meet Jesus in the clouds. This is a COMPLIMENTARY statement and NOT an OPPOSITE at all.
          You see Jesus was egeiro AND anistemi, those who were egeiro BEFORE Jesus' death were NOT anistemi, but the promise for us is that IF we are dead we will egeiro, but those who are alive do NOT need egeiro but WILL also anistemi.
          When Paul said "flesh and blood" does NOT inherit, he was meaning that "flesh and blood ALONE" does not inherit, but that the Spirit is REQUIRED.
          The 7th trumpet is NOT the Last Trumpet. Simply the last in a sequence of 7.
          1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 are the SAME event. Now IF you are REALLY claiming the DEAD are anistemi (rising to Jesus) whilst remaining DEAD, then you have a truly weird idea of what will happen.


          As Jesus coming in the clouds speaks of the 1st heaven (which we call the sky) and as that happens when He returns as Acts 1 notes so I do not get why you say I am not including Jesus coming in the clouds as part of things. It IS that Day. One DotL among many!
          We all have holes in our theology that we don't fully understand. We (you and I included) fill these holes with our best understanding, with this provision: that it does not contradict other scriptures. But they are there because of a shortcoming of our understanding. I understand your positions. Let me just point out a couple that I disagree with.

          1. We will not have an eternal body of flesh and blood and the spirit. Why? 2 reasons
          A. The life of the flesh is in the blood. Death is the contra-companion to life in the flesh. You are said to be living, if you are not yet dead. The first woman was given her name Eve, mother of all living, as a result of the sin that they committed. Death came to all of creation because of their sin. Death entered the world thru the disobedience of "adam". In the eternal age, death is abolished because the spirit is life.
          A2. Another scripture says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. With blood running thru our bodies, we would still be subject to sin and death.

          B. The parenthetical insertion of Rev 10,11 between the 6th and 7th trumpets is about a great mystery that will remain a mystery, even after the 7 thunders utter their voices, Even until, the 7th trumpet sounds. That mystery is the resurrection according to Paul in 1Cor 15 and Peter in 1Peter 1. That salvation, of which the prophets inquired, will be the grace that is given to Jesus, at his revelation. Pre-wrathera (like myself) and Posties both believe this because we believe the resurrection takes place at his revelation. But this mystery will finally be understood "in the days of the 7th trumpet... long before the 2nd advent ever takes place. This means that the resurrection of the saints will take place many days, in fact about 42 months before, the 2nd advent takes place... and not at the advent.
          2. You have no scriptural basis to say that Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet, but because of your "complete" view of things, you find no contradiction to believe that it is the 2nd advent. There is no explicit statement found in 1Cor 15 to say that it is. Nor is it explicitly stated in 1Thess4 that this is the 2nd advent. It is just how you understand the things that you do. What you fail to grasp (and thus exclude) in the OD, is that the coming of Jesus on the clouds, is included in the list of all the things that must/ will take place before the day of His coming at the 2nd can truly be said to be near. In the OD, primarily in Matthew, is where Jesus equates his 2nd advent with a thief in the night. We see this "thief in the night" equated to the 2nd advent in Rev 16:15.

          The day that no man "knows" is in regards to the parochial, and not the 2nd advent. The parousia is different from the 2nd advent. As I said earlier, post-tribbers can't tell the difference between the appearing of Jesus and his kingdom. No man knows the day of the parousia, because it's not about a "ginosko" head knowledge of when Jesus is "coming", but it's about the "eido", experiential knowledge of that day. I think you'll agree with me, that no man or angel will have previously experienced those times. Besides that, there is the day of wrath of the Son of man, [Lord of hosts, as per psalm 110 & Rev 6:16), as well of Great Day of God Almighty, as per Jude and Peter.

          The whole interlude (parenthesis) of the time of the 7 thunders is about the times of resurrection. This is why we see in that interlude, the discussions of the 2 witnesses, John's prophesying again, and the 42 months of desolation of Jerusalem, aka the time of the beast from the earth. We are not given the time when the angel standing on the sea and earth makes his loud cry, other than to know that it must happen before the 7th trumpet sounds... more than 42 months before the advent of Jesus. I equate it to the midnight (a very dark hour) cry of the 10 virgins parable. His straddling of the earth and sea, is the bridging of the gap of the "great gulf fixed" that enables the souls that are bound to be reunited with their earthly bodies. This is why Rev 10-11"13 is placed where it is... just before the 7th trumpet sounds. This is so that we can make the connection between the 7 thunders and the 7th trumpet. All of the righteous dead (those dead in Christ) will receive their eternal bodies at that time.

          The 7 thunders who uttered their voices (notice how this is backwards? ) are 7 resurrection events (maybe just individuals) who will rise at that time. Besides the 2 witnesses being resurrected, we know of the resurrection of the beast, and Zerubabel (to build the Lord's most glorious house) among others found in the scripture. The time of the 7 thunders until the 7th Trumpet, IS THE TIME OF THE RESURRECTION!
          Tho you probably won't understand this last statement that I'm going to make, I'm going to give it to you any way. The key to understanding this is the "thunders, voices, lightning and earthquake" that takes place at the 7th trumpet, among other places.

          Be Blessed
          The PuP

          Comment


          • #20
            1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

            G450
            ἀνίστημι
            anistēmi
            an-is'-tay-mee
            From G303 and G2476; to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).
            Total KJV occurrences: 112

            The context of the verse is people that were dead will rise and that Greek word means to stand up ie: the dead standing up again which is a reference to a physical resurrection from the dead back to physical life. "anistēmi" does not always mean to resurrect from the dead but it does when someone "stands up" after having been dead.

            Here is another example:

            Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen (anistēmi) again from the dead.


            1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

            This rising is unquestionably speaking of a physical resurrection from the dead.

            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
              The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
              Good question. I personally believe the Scriptures teach that Jesus returns to earth from heaven *with his saints.* In other words, the Rapture of the Church takes place within a mere second of time, so that it appears as if the Church is coming back as soon as it has left.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
                There are none in fact there is nothing that shows Christ will ever return to heaven once he leaves it at the second coming. After the GWTJ even God the Father leaves heaven to dwell with man on the Earth, Revelation 21. Heaven is obviously a temporary place as God's dwelling.



                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                  We all have holes in our theology that we don't fully understand. We (you and I included) fill these holes with our best understanding, with this provision: that it does not contradict other scriptures. But they are there because of a shortcoming of our understanding. I understand your positions. Let me just point out a couple that I disagree with.
                  I agree it must NOT contradict other scripture - however which one are we taking first as being the correct understanding or are both understandings wrong? Moreover is it simply our logic that fails? Let's deal with the couple that you disagree with.

                  1. We will not have an eternal body of flesh and blood and the spirit. Why? 2 reasons
                  A. The life of the flesh is in the blood. Death is the contra-companion to life in the flesh. You are said to be living, if you are not yet dead. The first woman was given her name Eve, mother of all living, as a result of the sin that they committed. Death came to all of creation because of their sin. Death entered the world thru the disobedience of "adam". In the eternal age, death is abolished because the spirit is life.
                  A2. Another scripture says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. With blood running thru our bodies, we would still be subject to sin and death.
                  OK let me deal with your two points (which actually have more assumptions in them which need dealing with.
                  A. The life of the flesh is found in God as Gen 2:7 shows. It is the breath of life in us, as given by God, and this is HOW He chose to create us. Now that breath is carried around our bodies by the blood, and so later we are also told this:
                  Gen 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
                  So blood carries life to our bodies but that life originates with God.
                  When God created Adam we have the simple question "Did Adam HAVE to die IF he did not sin?" You seem to be arguing that he would die regardless of sin. However God had planted the Tree of life in the Garden of Eden (and which will be in the New Jerusalem) and said that even though Adam had sinned and would die IF he ate of that tree he would live. This means that though flesh in its natural state will not be alive and if alive will die, yet through the Spirit of God, the flesh lives. In fact we are told this:
                  Act 17:28 for ‘In him we live and move and have our being’
                  Now IF we are agreeing that death is abolished through the Spirit of Life AND IF we are agreeing that we live because through Him we live and move and have our being THEN your argument is found to be baseless FROM an original perspective, from a present view and from the reality of eternity.
                  Moreover Jesus Himself AFTER He was egeiro AND AFTER you have Him having seen the Father states that He IS alive like us being of flesh and bone.
                  Additionally Paul notes in 1 Cor 15 that we have immortality NOT by the REMOVAL of the mortal BUT by having the ADDITIONAL of the immortal.

                  A2 We would indeed be subject to sin and death IF we were WITHOUT His immortality clothing us. However upon that receipt we are no longer UNDER the Law of Sin and Death but are free, like Adam prior to sin, and like Jesus right now.

                  There is NO reason to claim we will not have an eternal body of flesh, blood and spirit. There is NO scripture which contradicts the idea, ONLY your logic. However I have scripture which shows that we DO have bodies that are of flesh and that therefore YOUR view contradicts scripture CONTRARY to your initial position.

                  B. The parenthetical insertion of Rev 10,11 between the 6th and 7th trumpets is about a great mystery that will remain a mystery, even after the 7 thunders utter their voices, Even until, the 7th trumpet sounds. That mystery is the resurrection according to Paul in 1Cor 15 and Peter in 1Peter 1. That salvation, of which the prophets inquired, will be the grace that is given to Jesus, at his revelation. Pre-wrathera (like myself) and Posties both believe this because we believe the resurrection takes place at his revelation. But this mystery will finally be understood "in the days of the 7th trumpet... long before the 2nd advent ever takes place. This means that the resurrection of the saints will take place many days, in fact about 42 months before, the 2nd advent takes place... and not at the advent.
                  The mystery is stated to END in Rev 10:7 DURING the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Now you are claiming it is the mystery of resurrection, however Rev 10 does NOT make such a claim.
                  The 2nd advent occurs DURING the period of time of the 7th Trumpet (which is while it is sounding.) There is NO such thing as Pre-Wrath (though I have heard and read claims about it.) The 7 vials ARE the 7th Trumpet and they are the END of God's wrath, which means His wrath was started BEFORE the 7th Trumpet.
                  As a Post-Trib I have never read or heard any other Post-Trib say that the resurrection occurs BEFORE His 2nd Advent. They ALL (without fail) hold to the idea that the resurrection occurs AT His 2nd Advent.
                  You seem to be suggesting a Mid-Trib view, with the Rapture at the Mid point of the final week when the AC comes to power.
                  This idea of a Mid-Trib needs discussing perhaps in a different thread.

                  2. You have no scriptural basis to say that Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet, but because of your "complete" view of things, you find no contradiction to believe that it is the 2nd advent. There is no explicit statement found in 1Cor 15 to say that it is. Nor is it explicitly stated in 1Thess4 that this is the 2nd advent. It is just how you understand the things that you do. What you fail to grasp (and thus exclude) in the OD, is that the coming of Jesus on the clouds, is included in the list of all the things that must/ will take place before the day of His coming at the 2nd can truly be said to be near. In the OD, primarily in Matthew, is where Jesus equates his 2nd advent with a thief in the night. We see this "thief in the night" equated to the 2nd advent in Rev 16:15.
                  I have NEVER said Jesus comes AT the 7th Trumpet. What I have said is that He is revealed at the 7th Trumpet. His revelation occurs BEFORE His 2nd Advent. This actually ties in more with your Mid-Trib view.
                  Actually there is an EXPLICIT statement in 1 Thes 4 that this IS Jesus' Advent (and therefore this by implication means His 2nd UNLESS you are arguing there was one prior, which seems contrary to what Paul is saying in this whole letter). Additionally as this IS when the DEAD in Christ are raised so it brings 1 Cor 15 into it which is EXPLICITLY about the dead in Christ being raised AND clothed in immortality.
                  I have NOT excluded anything from the OD, and have the coming of Jesus in the clouds as PART of the Day of His coming. It is as a "Thief in the night" for those who are NOT His, but for us who walk in the light it is NOT! I have NO idea why yo try to force a separation of the two when NO scripture even suggests such a thing. It seems rather that a doctrinal position is forcing you to insert it.

                  The day that no man "knows" is in regards to the parochial, and not the 2nd advent. The parousia is different from the 2nd advent. As I said earlier, post-tribbers can't tell the difference between the appearing of Jesus and his kingdom. No man knows the day of the parousia, because it's not about a "ginosko" head knowledge of when Jesus is "coming", but it's about the "eido", experiential knowledge of that day. I think you'll agree with me, that no man or angel will have previously experienced those times. Besides that, there is the day of wrath of the Son of man, [Lord of hosts, as per psalm 110 & Rev 6:16), as well of Great Day of God Almighty, as per Jude and Peter.
                  Actually to experience it can ONLY happen on the day, so no one could have knowledge UNTIL the Day whenever it is based on your reasoning here.
                  However His parousia is NOT divorced from His 2nd advent because BOTH are about His coming.
                  What seems to confuse you is that there ARE multiple Days of the Lord (DotL). We had one at His crucifixion. There are others which are spoken about in Zechariah 14. There is the Day of Jacob's Trouble, which is another DotL separate to His coming.
                  "eido" is not just about experiential knowledge but our ability to perceive or understand any facts.

                  The whole interlude (parenthesis) of the time of the 7 thunders is about the times of resurrection. This is why we see in that interlude, the discussions of the 2 witnesses, John's prophesying again, and the 42 months of desolation of Jerusalem, aka the time of the beast from the earth. We are not given the time when the angel standing on the sea and earth makes his loud cry, other than to know that it must happen before the 7th trumpet sounds... more than 42 months before the advent of Jesus. I equate it to the midnight (a very dark hour) cry of the 10 virgins parable. His straddling of the earth and sea, is the bridging of the gap of the "great gulf fixed" that enables the souls that are bound to be reunited with their earthly bodies. This is why Rev 10-11"13 is placed where it is... just before the 7th trumpet sounds. This is so that we can make the connection between the 7 thunders and the 7th trumpet. All of the righteous dead (those dead in Christ) will receive their eternal bodies at that time.
                  Nope, that is NOT stated anywhere in Rev 10, so it is an assumption based on what you understand the mystery to be THOUGH that mystery is only fulfilled AT the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.
                  The 2W are part of the 6th Trumpet NOT the 7th and are NOT part of that interlude.
                  The AC comes BEFORE the 2W, but is prevented from completing his will because of them. When their time is up, THEN he makes war on them and kills them and that is the Day of Jacob's Trouble.
                  Now your connection to the 10 virgins is interesting because I can see that connection, and it is the cry which comes BEFORE the actual coming of the Bridegroom. IOW this is the cry of the herald, and is why the 7th Trumpet being blown is then the Bridegroom cleaning up His house to receive His Bride.

                  The 7 thunders who uttered their voices (notice how this is backwards? ) are 7 resurrection events (maybe just individuals) who will rise at that time. Besides the 2 witnesses being resurrected, we know of the resurrection of the beast, and Zerubabel (to build the Lord's most glorious house) among others found in the scripture. The time of the 7 thunders until the 7th Trumpet, IS THE TIME OF THE RESURRECTION!
                  Tho you probably won't understand this last statement that I'm going to make, I'm going to give it to you any way. The key to understanding this is the "thunders, voices, lightning and earthquake" that takes place at the 7th trumpet, among other places.
                  Now your jump to it being 7 resurrection events is wild speculation, going from the speculation that the mystery IS the resurrection to it then being 7 because there are 7 Thunders.
                  The 7 Thunders is a prolepsis and is not tied directly into the chronology, but rather they speak of what WILL happen IN the chronology.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

                    G450
                    ἀνίστημι
                    anistēmi
                    an-is'-tay-mee
                    From G303 and G2476; to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).
                    Total KJV occurrences: 112

                    The context of the verse is people that were dead will rise and that Greek word means to stand up ie: the dead standing up again which is a reference to a physical resurrection from the dead back to physical life. "anistēmi" does not always mean to resurrect from the dead but it does when someone "stands up" after having been dead.

                    Here is another example:

                    Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen (anistēmi) again from the dead.


                    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

                    This rising is unquestionably speaking of a physical resurrection from the dead.
                    The OP asks about verses that indicate that Jesus Christ resurrects believers and takes them to heaven.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                      There are none in fact there is nothing that shows Christ will ever return to heaven once he leaves it at the second coming. After the GWTJ even God the Father leaves heaven to dwell with man on the Earth, Revelation 21. Heaven is obviously a temporary place as God's dwelling.


                      Bingo! There is no reason to assume that there will be a pre-Tribulation rapture.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                        The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
                        There is no scripture and also no reference that induces us to go back to heaven or be taken away from the earth before the tribulation. In fact, we are warned of all the things that are coming to prepare us so that we will not be left in the dark when these things happen. Jesus says: I told you before, that when these things happen you will know. So Christ foretold many things to the disciples so that they might believe. Now our future is also explained in advance so that when these things happen we will not become discouraged and look up because we know that our salvation is near.
                        To God be the Glory

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                          I agree it must NOT contradict other scripture - however which one are we taking first as being the correct understanding or are both understandings wrong? Moreover is it simply our logic that fails? Let's deal with the couple that you disagree with.


                          OK let me deal with your two points (which actually have more assumptions in them which need dealing with.
                          A. The life of the flesh is found in God as Gen 2:7 shows. It is the breath of life in us, as given by God, and this is HOW He chose to create us. Now that breath is carried around our bodies by the blood, and so later we are also told this:
                          Gen 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
                          So blood carries life to our bodies but that life originates with God.
                          When God created Adam we have the simple question "Did Adam HAVE to die IF he did not sin?" You seem to be arguing that he would die regardless of sin. However God had planted the Tree of life in the Garden of Eden (and which will be in the New Jerusalem) and said that even though Adam had sinned and would die IF he ate of that tree he would live. This means that though flesh in its natural state will not be alive and if alive will die, yet through the Spirit of God, the flesh lives. In fact we are told this:
                          Act 17:28 for ‘In him we live and move and have our being’
                          Now IF we are agreeing that death is abolished through the Spirit of Life AND IF we are agreeing that we live because through Him we live and move and have our being THEN your argument is found to be baseless FROM an original perspective, from a present view and from the reality of eternity.
                          Moreover Jesus Himself AFTER He was egeiro AND AFTER you have Him having seen the Father states that He IS alive like us being of flesh and bone.
                          Additionally Paul notes in 1 Cor 15 that we have immortality NOT by the REMOVAL of the mortal BUT by having the ADDITIONAL of the immortal.

                          A2 We would indeed be subject to sin and death IF we were WITHOUT His immortality clothing us. However upon that receipt we are no longer UNDER the Law of Sin and Death but are free, like Adam prior to sin, and like Jesus right now.

                          There is NO reason to claim we will not have an eternal body of flesh, blood and spirit. There is NO scripture which contradicts the idea, ONLY your logic. However I have scripture which shows that we DO have bodies that are of flesh and that therefore YOUR view contradicts scripture CONTRARY to your initial position.


                          The mystery is stated to END in Rev 10:7 DURING the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Now you are claiming it is the mystery of resurrection, however Rev 10 does NOT make such a claim.
                          The 2nd advent occurs DURING the period of time of the 7th Trumpet (which is while it is sounding.) There is NO such thing as Pre-Wrath (though I have heard and read claims about it.) The 7 vials ARE the 7th Trumpet and they are the END of God's wrath, which means His wrath was started BEFORE the 7th Trumpet.
                          As a Post-Trib I have never read or heard any other Post-Trib say that the resurrection occurs BEFORE His 2nd Advent. They ALL (without fail) hold to the idea that the resurrection occurs AT His 2nd Advent.
                          You seem to be suggesting a Mid-Trib view, with the Rapture at the Mid point of the final week when the AC comes to power.
                          This idea of a Mid-Trib needs discussing perhaps in a different thread.


                          I have NEVER said Jesus comes AT the 7th Trumpet. What I have said is that He is revealed at the 7th Trumpet. His revelation occurs BEFORE His 2nd Advent. This actually ties in more with your Mid-Trib view.
                          Actually there is an EXPLICIT statement in 1 Thes 4 that this IS Jesus' Advent (and therefore this by implication means His 2nd UNLESS you are arguing there was one prior, which seems contrary to what Paul is saying in this whole letter). Additionally as this IS when the DEAD in Christ are raised so it brings 1 Cor 15 into it which is EXPLICITLY about the dead in Christ being raised AND clothed in immortality.
                          I have NOT excluded anything from the OD, and have the coming of Jesus in the clouds as PART of the Day of His coming. It is as a "Thief in the night" for those who are NOT His, but for us who walk in the light it is NOT! I have NO idea why yo try to force a separation of the two when NO scripture even suggests such a thing. It seems rather that a doctrinal position is forcing you to insert it.


                          Actually to experience it can ONLY happen on the day, so no one could have knowledge UNTIL the Day whenever it is based on your reasoning here.
                          However His parousia is NOT divorced from His 2nd advent because BOTH are about His coming.
                          What seems to confuse you is that there ARE multiple Days of the Lord (DotL). We had one at His crucifixion. There are others which are spoken about in Zechariah 14. There is the Day of Jacob's Trouble, which is another DotL separate to His coming.
                          "eido" is not just about experiential knowledge but our ability to perceive or understand any facts.


                          Nope, that is NOT stated anywhere in Rev 10, so it is an assumption based on what you understand the mystery to be THOUGH that mystery is only fulfilled AT the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.
                          The 2W are part of the 6th Trumpet NOT the 7th and are NOT part of that interlude.
                          The AC comes BEFORE the 2W, but is prevented from completing his will because of them. When their time is up, THEN he makes war on them and kills them and that is the Day of Jacob's Trouble.
                          Now your connection to the 10 virgins is interesting because I can see that connection, and it is the cry which comes BEFORE the actual coming of the Bridegroom. IOW this is the cry of the herald, and is why the 7th Trumpet being blown is then the Bridegroom cleaning up His house to receive His Bride.


                          Now your jump to it being 7 resurrection events is wild speculation, going from the speculation that the mystery IS the resurrection to it then being 7 because there are 7 Thunders.
                          The 7 Thunders is a prolepsis and is not tied directly into the chronology, but rather they speak of what WILL happen IN the chronology.
                          You make claims about scripture and then don't back it up. E.g.,

                          I have NEVER said Jesus comes AT the 7th Trumpet. What I have said is that He is revealed at the 7th Trumpet. His revelation occurs BEFORE His 2nd Advent. This actually ties in more with your Mid-Trib view.

                          [I am glad you agree that the revelation/ apokalupsis IS NOT the same as the 2nd advent.... more on this in a moment].

                          Actually there is an EXPLICIT statement in 1 Thes 4 that this IS Jesus' Advent (and therefore this by implication means His 2nd UNLESS you are arguing there was one prior, which seems contrary to what Paul is saying in this whole letter). Additionally as this IS when the DEAD in Christ are raised so it brings 1 Cor 15 into it which is EXPLICITLY about the dead in Christ being raised AND clothed in immortality.
                          I have NOT excluded anything from the OD, and have the coming of Jesus in the clouds as PART of the Day of His coming. It is as a "Thief in the night" for those who are NOT His, but for us who walk in the light it is NOT! I have NO idea why yo try to force a separation of the two when NO scripture even suggests such a thing. It seems rather that a doctrinal position is forcing you to insert it.

                          First you say that 1Thess4 "explicitly says" it is the 2nd advent. Then you say that it is "implied". Implicit and implied are connotatively the same thing. Is it implicit or explicit? (All the while you do not provide the "explicit" scripture.

                          Yes, 1Cor 15 "explicitly" says that our bodies are raised (egeiro) and changed from being mortal to immortality. You are relying on lingo dyslexia to say that we are "raised" anistemi and that Jesus comes in the clouds at the advent. There is no "explicit" coming of Jesus there. You only imply that it is there. As Luke has stated, the KOG becomes nigh, AFTER Jesus has come in the clouds.

                          Luk 21:31 KJV So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

                          You keep saying that you don't exclude the "coming in the clouds" from "these things come to pass". So, let me be even more direct.

                          Is this verse,

                          Luk 21:27 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

                          One of those things that "ye shall see come to pass"?

                          The apokalupsis is NOT the 2nd advent. Good! But the parousia of 1Thess4 explicitly is? I am still waiting on that one. Implicitly, I hear you saying, the apokalupsis ISN'T the 2nd advent, but the parousia IS? Let me say it again, post-tribbers can't tell the difference between the appearance of Jesus and his kingdom. Paul equates the appearance of Christ, the epiphanies, his brightness with the parousia, his coming in 2thess 2:8.

                          You, have in essence said that I implied that the resurrection is a mystery, and is but mere speculation. You are right, I implied it with a only a scripture reference to it by Paul in 1Cor 15 and 1Peter1. So here it is, explicitly, (with an additional quote from John)

                          1Co 15:51 KJV Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

                          1Jn 3:2 KJV Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

                          1Pe 1:3-5 KJV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time...
                          1Pe 1:7 KJV That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: ...

                          1Pe 1:9-10 KJV Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: ...
                          1Pe 1:13 KJV Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

                          In Peter's passage we see Peter equating the resurrection with,

                          A lively hope, an inheritance incorruptible, reserved in heaven, salvation that is ready to be revealed, the salvation of our souls, the grace that should come, and the grace that is to be brought to you....when?

                          It is,

                          Revealed in the last time, at the appearing of Jesus,... at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

                          1Jn 3:2 KJV Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

                          So, let me reiterate. You have stated that the revelation of Jesus happens before the 2nd advent, AND that the resurrection takes place at the parousia, as Paul states in 1Thess4. So which is it? Does the resurrection take place at the 2nd advent or at (your definition of when) the apokalupsis happens?

                          You make the claim that we will flesh and BLOOD, but provide no scripture to back up such a claim, even saying that no scripture denies us that end result... ignoring Paul's statement that flesh and blood shall not inherit the KOG. Flesh is not the issue, we agree on that. But if you are flesh and blood and spirit, are you not also flesh and blood? Does not the spirit already reside with in you? (I think so). If you have not the spirit of Christ, you are none of his. The spirit is the earnest (the down payment) of OUR INHERITANCE.

                          You said that ,

                          "The 7 vials ARE the 7th Trumpet and they are the END of God's wrath, which means His wrath was started BEFORE the 7th Trumpet. "

                          No, incorrect. With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, the day of His wrath is come. Prior to the 7th Trumpet is the wrath of the Lamb, not the wrath of Almighty God.

                          Rev 6:16 KJV And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

                          Rev 11:17 KJV Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

                          Rev 11:18 KJV And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

                          You need to read Psalm 110, paying attention to the difference between the LORD, Yehoveh, and the Lord, Adonai, who sits at his right hand.


                          Psa 110:1-5 KJV 1 A Psalm of David. The LORD (Yehoveh) said unto my Lord (Adonai) , Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD (Yehoveh) shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD (Yehoveh) hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. 5 The Lord (Adonai) at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

                          This scripture is quoted many times in the NT.

                          I am not mid-trib. I can't believe you are not familiar with pre-wrath. My mistake...you said,

                          There is NO such thing as Pre-Wrath (though I have heard and read claims about it.).

                          It should be discussed separately. Let me just say this. In the parable of the tares, it says that, at the time of harvest, Jesus sends his angels, (the 7 Trumpet angels are the wrath of the LAMB) to remove from HIS kingdom, those things which offend and commit iniquity.

                          Mat 13:41 KJV The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

                          What happens at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet? The kingdom comes.

                          Be Blessed
                          The PuP


                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                            You make claims about scripture and then don't back it up. E.g.,
                            I have NEVER said Jesus comes AT the 7th Trumpet. What I have said is that He is revealed at the 7th Trumpet. His revelation occurs BEFORE His 2nd Advent. This actually ties in more with your Mid-Trib view.
                            [I am glad you agree that the revelation/ apokalupsis IS NOT the same as the 2nd advent.... more on this in a moment].
                            Actually there is an EXPLICIT statement in 1 Thes 4 that this IS Jesus' Advent (and therefore this by implication means His 2nd UNLESS you are arguing there was one prior, which seems contrary to what Paul is saying in this whole letter). Additionally as this IS when the DEAD in Christ are raised so it brings 1 Cor 15 into it which is EXPLICITLY about the dead in Christ being raised AND clothed in immortality.
                            I have NOT excluded anything from the OD, and have the coming of Jesus in the clouds as PART of the Day of His coming. It is as a "Thief in the night" for those who are NOT His, but for us who walk in the light it is NOT! I have NO idea why yo try to force a separation of the two when NO scripture even suggests such a thing. It seems rather that a doctrinal position is forcing you to insert it.
                            First you say that 1Thess4 "explicitly says" it is the 2nd advent. Then you say that it is "implied". Implicit and implied are connotatively the same thing. Is it implicit or explicit? (All the while you do not provide the "explicit" scripture.
                            I DID provide the scripture - I quoted the Book and the Chapter. I do not see the point in copying and pasting a whole chapter of scripture when you can read it yourself.
                            Moreover whilst the "advent" IS explicit, the implication is "2nd". IOW we ARE told He is COMING at that time, so this portion is EXPLICITLY stated. What we understand is that this is His 2nd Coming based on other points made by Paul within the chapter without him actually saying it is the "2nd".

                            Yes, 1Cor 15 "explicitly" says that our bodies are raised (egeiro) and changed from being mortal to immortality. You are relying on lingo dyslexia to say that we are "raised" anistemi and that Jesus comes in the clouds at the advent. There is no "explicit" coming of Jesus there. You only imply that it is there. As Luke has stated, the KOG becomes nigh, AFTER Jesus has come in the clouds.
                            Again what IS explicit is the dead in Christ coming to life, and the implicit is that this happens when He returns. There is NO linguistic dyslexia here.
                            What you have to PROVE is that the DEAD in Christ are raised on more than one occasion (when the phrase is a catch all for everyone who is dead in Christ AND is used in BOTH 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15.)

                            Luk 21:31 KJV So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
                            u keep saying that you don't exclude the "coming in the clouds" from "these things come to pass". So, let me be even more direct.
                            Is this verse,
                            Luk 21:27 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
                            One of those things that "ye shall see come to pass"?
                            You seem to have a chronology issue. Luke 21:31 speaks of what occurs leading to His coming it is NOT referencing Luke 21:27 but Luke 21:29 and 30 which is a parable which refers back to the SPECIFIC events mentioned in Luke 21 which CULMINATE in His return which is found in verse 27.

                            The apokalupsis is NOT the 2nd advent. Good! But the parousia of 1Thess4 explicitly is? I am still waiting on that one. Implicitly, I hear you saying, the apokalupsis ISN'T the 2nd advent, but the parousia IS? Let me say it again, post-tribbers can't tell the difference between the appearance of Jesus and his kingdom. Paul equates the appearance of Christ, the epiphanies, his brightness with the parousia, his coming in 2thess 2:8.
                            There is NO difference between His Coming and His Kingdom coming for His Kingdom comes with Him!
                            2 Thes 2:8 refers to the SAME event as Rev 19 and 1 Thes 4:16.
                            However none of these is His revealing. IOW you confuse people seeing Him in action with His actual coming.

                            You, have in essence said that I implied that the resurrection is a mystery, and is but mere speculation. You are right, I implied it with a only a scripture reference to it by Paul in 1Cor 15 and 1Peter1. So here it is, explicitly, (with an additional quote from John)
                            1Co 15:51 KJV Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                            1Jn 3:2 KJV Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
                            1Pe 1:3-5 KJV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time...
                            1Pe 1:7 KJV That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: ...
                            1Pe 1:9-10 KJV Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: ...
                            1Pe 1:13 KJV Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
                            In Peter's passage we see Peter equating the resurrection with,
                            A lively hope, an inheritance incorruptible, reserved in heaven, salvation that is ready to be revealed, the salvation of our souls, the grace that should come, and the grace that is to be brought to you....when?
                            It is,
                            Revealed in the last time, at the appearing of Jesus,... at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
                            What I stated was the SPECULATION that one mystery is the same as another mystery.
                            There is more than one mystery in scripture. However you try to say there is but one.

                            So, let me reiterate. You have stated that the revelation of Jesus happens before the 2nd advent, AND that the resurrection takes place at the parousia, as Paul states in 1Thess4. So which is it? Does the resurrection take place at the 2nd advent or at (your definition of when) the apokalupsis happens?
                            What do you mean which is it?
                            The resurrection occurs at His coming, which is noted in many places, such as 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 and 1 John 3:2.
                            However the revealing of Jesus is stated in connection with a different event altogether:
                            Luk 17:26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man.
                            Luk 17:27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
                            Luk 17:28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building,
                            Luk 17:29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—
                            Luk 17:30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
                            Luk 17:31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.
                            Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
                            Luk 17:33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.
                            Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
                            Luk 17:35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”
                            Luk 17:37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”

                            Notice there are many days in verse 26, and on one of those days there will be a a time when the Son of man is revealed. It is the day as verse 31 notes that you are to flee. It is NOT the day of Rapture, for them we are caught up to Him and won't need to flee. It is in fact the Day when we will see the AC come and proclaim himself to be god.

                            You make the claim that we will flesh and BLOOD, but provide no scripture to back up such a claim, even saying that no scripture denies us that end result... ignoring Paul's statement that flesh and blood shall not inherit the KOG. Flesh is not the issue, we agree on that. But if you are flesh and blood and spirit, are you not also flesh and blood? Does not the spirit already reside with in you? (I think so). If you have not the spirit of Christ, you are none of his. The spirit is the earnest (the down payment) of OUR INHERITANCE.
                            I did provide scripture in my rebuttal to your points.
                            Here is another to help you:
                            Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

                            You said that ,
                            "The 7 vials ARE the 7th Trumpet and they are the END of God's wrath, which means His wrath was started BEFORE the 7th Trumpet. "
                            No, incorrect. With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, the day of His wrath is come. Prior to the 7th Trumpet is the wrath of the Lamb, not the wrath of Almighty God.
                            Rev 6:16 KJV And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
                            Does God say it is the wrath of the Lamb? Nope! It is people who CLAIM it is the wrath of the Lamb. It is no such thing. What people claim is wrong.
                            Notice they even have it as being BOTH the wrath of God AND the wrath of the Lamb.

                            there is the wrath of God prior to the 7 Vials as I highlighted the scripture says, but ALSO IF your view of Rev 6 is correct THEN clearly we have the wrath of God with the Seals. You trip over your own incorrect understanding.

                            Rev 11:17 KJV Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
                            Rev 11:18 KJV And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
                            You need to read Psalm 110, paying attention to the difference between the LORD, Yehoveh, and the Lord, Adonai, who sits at his right hand.
                            Whose wrath is NOW come? This speaks of the Lamb's wrath coming NOW AFTER the 7th Trumpet is blown, however the Lamb's wrath is NOT the 7 Vials, but rather with when He comes.

                            I am not mid-trib. I can't believe you are not familiar with pre-wrath. My mistake...you said,
                            There is NO such thing as Pre-Wrath (though I have heard and read claims about it.).
                            It should be discussed separately. Let me just say this. In the parable of the tares, it says that, at the time of harvest, Jesus sends his angels, (the 7 Trumpet angels are the wrath of the LAMB) to remove from HIS kingdom, those things which offend and commit iniquity.
                            Pre-Wrath means BEFORE the 7 Vials are poured which makes it Mid-Trib (though you can argue that the Trib proper hasn't started yet).
                            The 7 Trumpets are NOT once called the Wrath of the Lamb - the first declaration by God of the Lamb's wrath is what happens AFTER the 7th Trumpet is blown.

                            Mat 13:41 KJV The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
                            What happens at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet? The kingdom comes.
                            At the sounding of the 7th Trumpet THEN is the START of the GT.
                            The purpose of the GT is to remove ALL things in His kingdom which offend. No one who does iniquity will remain in His Church but it shall be made spotless like a Bride for her wedding.
                            His kingdom does NOT come on earth at the 7th Trumpet. It is the time when Jesus is finally crowned in Heaven and when Jesus kicks Satan out of heaven.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I was asking you to be courteous and address the "explicitness" of 1Thess4. I was not being fecitious in asking you to address what you say is explicit and already addressed. You are either being discourteous or avoiding the issue, I will not ask again.

                              So, let me redirect things to illustrate why what you say is explicit to you, is not explicit to me. You said

                              "I have NEVER said Jesus comes AT the 7th Trumpet. What I have said is that He is revealed at the 7th Trumpet."

                              You said he "is revealed" at that time, and it is not the 2nd advent. Let me rephrase my earlier question. Your use of "reveled" is ambiguous to your views. You believe, and have stated that the resurrection takes place at the 2nd advent. I provided 1 John 3:2 and several verses from 1Peter1 (and I will give you one more, shortly) that gives the timing of when our resurrection takes place.

                              2Th 1:5-10 KJV 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall BE REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

                              Our "rest with us" is referring to our eternal redemption, at the resurrection. It takes place at Jesus's revealing. 1 John 3:2 says that we will be like him when he "appears". 1Peter1: 7,13 says that it is "at the appearing of Jesus" and "at the revelation of Jesus Christ". So here we have our resurrection taking place at the appearing and revelation of Jesus. Yet you say that Jesus is revealed at the 7th Trumpet, but that this isn't the Rapture/ resurrection of 1Thess4 or 1Cor 15. Which revelation of Jesus is it? We have a very ambiguous use of the word revelation/ revealed between your use of revealed and the apostles use of revealed. And you say that you are not using linguistic dyslexia? And that the scriptures are explicitly clear? Gimme a break. Either explain the "explicitness" of 1Thess4 or let's put this conversation on its deathbed.

                              Be Blessed
                              The PuP

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                              • #30
                                Just to get things back on track, here are the three verses that collectively says that our enduring substance is our reward in heaven that will be given to us at the coming of Jesus with the saints going to the Father.

                                1Th 3:13 KJV To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

                                Heb 10:34 KJV For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

                                1Pe 1:4 KJV To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

                                Be Blessed
                                The PuP

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