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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not saying there aren't different aspects to each of these events--the coming of the Kingdom, the coming of Christ, our ascension, our transformation, the defeat of Antichrist, etc. Obviously you're right that the defeat of Antichrist is treated as an event that takes some time, that the coming of Christ is preceded by preliminary events, and that the transformation is instantaneous. Obviously, they are treated separately, and they each have their own particular time frame.
    Agreement is good.

    But what I am saying is that all of these separate events have a common point in time in which they are completed, and draw upon the same OT source for the description of the point in time in which it happens. They all relate to the moment at which Christ appears. And this is described by Jesus himself as "lightning."
    Actually nope, they are NOT having a common point in time in which they are completed. In fact we have the opposite. There is a common point in time in which they START, and it is THIS event which is the lightning, that Jesus spoke about. However some things last a Day - hence it being called the Day of the Lord in many places. Other things are very short, such as our transformation - which is in an instant! The Rapture is simply a part of this and when it starts and ends is NOT stated clearly.

    And so, all of these events have a common point in time, described as lightning. Thus, all of the events are being described just as the transformation is described, as an instantaneous event in which Christ comes. It is the moment he arrives that lightning strikes, and appears as a "twinkling of an eye." It is a sudden judgment, as well as a sudden transformation. It is *not* just a sudden transformation, according to Jesus. Sorry, we disagree on this.
    Nope, they are NOT described as lightning - ONLY the coming of the Son of Man is described as being VISIBLE like lightning.
    The transformation itself may even be the cause of the brightness as when we are glorified then I think we will be clothed in BRIGHT raiment's and so it will look like lightning. However taking what is given as a picture to help us understand one thing and then CHANGE that meaning for something else which is NOT included is simply poor exegesis.
    There is NO sudden judgement, for the 7 Vials of wrath are poured out over a period of time, just like the 5th Trumpet lasts 5 months of pain.
    SO you are wrong in claiming Jesus said something He did not.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
      Agreement is good.


      Actually nope, they are NOT having a common point in time in which they are completed. In fact we have the opposite. There is a common point in time in which they START, and it is THIS event which is the lightning, that Jesus spoke about. However some things last a Day - hence it being called the Day of the Lord in many places. Other things are very short, such as our transformation - which is in an instant! The Rapture is simply a part of this and when it starts and ends is NOT stated clearly.


      Nope, they are NOT described as lightning - ONLY the coming of the Son of Man is described as being VISIBLE like lightning.
      The transformation itself may even be the cause of the brightness as when we are glorified then I think we will be clothed in BRIGHT raiment's and so it will look like lightning. However taking what is given as a picture to help us understand one thing and then CHANGE that meaning for something else which is NOT included is simply poor exegesis.
      There is NO sudden judgement, for the 7 Vials of wrath are poured out over a period of time, just like the 5th Trumpet lasts 5 months of pain.
      SO you are wrong in claiming Jesus said something He did not.
      I disagree. Bickering over what I mean by when things are "completed" is an exercise in futility. To "complete" all these things at a moment of time does not have any reference whatsoever to what happens preceding that event to lead to it and what things follow after to finish off that event.

      To "complete" something in this sense is a general completion of the essence of these matters in one event like lightning, which is the return of Christ. "Lightning" is used to depict divine judgment. It strikes suddenly with little warning. What signs preexisted it were ignored by those who are suddenly struck with this event.

      Again, I'm not arguing over how long these final judgments took, or over how long it will take to clean things up. My point is singularly that they all have a focus point on the moment at which Christ returns like lightning.
      Since that event is depicted as such, then more than just our transformation takes place in the same moment.

      In fact, Paul's argument seems to be that since Christ returns like lightning, so also will our transformation be in an instant, like the twinkling of an eye. Nothing prevents me from going farther and suggesting that since Christ returns like lightning, the Rapture of the Church also takes place in an instant.

      In all cases, it is Christ's Return that is depicted as lightning, which makes all of the attending events have a similar focus on an instant of time. Those events may or may not take longer in some respects, but in some respects it is logical to conclude that they also will be instantaneous. And I think that would include both the transformation of the saints and the Rapture of the same.

      Both events are directly related to the moment of time in which Christ comes. In fact, if he is to gather his people to himself in the clouds at the same time he is biblically depicted as "descending," then the Rapture and the transformation must be, I should think, simultaneous? The Church must go to heaven, be transformed, and return with him to earth all in the same moment of time.

      But we seem to be unable to add any more arguments to this. Unless I find a specific OT prophecy that ties lightning or the twinkle of an eye to the catching up of the saints, we may not be able to settle. I doubt we would settle regardless. If we weren't Christian family I'd think we were enemies! We always seem to disagree!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by randyk View Post
        Both events are directly related to the moment of time in which Christ comes. In fact, if he is to gather his people to himself in the clouds at the same time he is biblically depicted as "descending," then the Rapture and the transformation must be, I should think, simultaneous? The Church must go to heaven, be transformed, and return with him to earth all in the same moment of time.
        Why would the Church "must go to heaven, be transformed"? It is clear from all the passages that "those who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23) are transformed "in the clouds" when Jesus returns.

        Second, are you saying that when Jesus comes, He takes all saints to heaven for transformation and then returns all "in the same moment of time"?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
          Why would the Church "must go to heaven, be transformed"? It is clear from all the passages that "those who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23) are transformed "in the clouds" when Jesus returns.

          Second, are you saying that when Jesus comes, He takes all saints to heaven for transformation and then returns all "in the same moment of time"?
          Yes, my method is that I take the original doctrine in the Bible, if it can be located, and then find NT doctrine as based on that. In this case, Dan 7 is one of the great passages of Scripture that refers to the return of the Son of Man with the clouds. If you'll notice, Jesus himself referred to his coming as the "Son of Man." And passages in the book of Revelation indicate the same. They are all relating back to Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven.

          Of course there is much more about the Messiah and about the coming of the Kingdom in OT prophecy. Christ's Coming is depicted as lightning, in Jesus' Olivet Discourse. And NT doctrine looks back on this, also depicting the events that surround Jesus' Coming as sudden, like lightning, or like the "twinkling of an eye."

          The transformation is instantaneous, as Paul points out in 1 Cor 15. And the Rapture, I would suppose, is also instantaneous because it is linked with Christ's "descent from heaven" in Dan 7. If Christ is descending when he gathers his people, then the gathering itself must be instantaneous, and the transformation, which takes place at the same time, must also be instantaneous. If the saints are to appear *with Christ* at his Coming, they must be regathered, transformed, and return in revelation with Christ at the same moment of time, as lightning, and in the twinkling of an eye.

          Anyway, that's my logic. I see no reason for this to take any time at all. God is not bound by the laws of physics. To do something God takes only as much time as He wishes.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by randyk View Post
            If the saints are to appear *with Christ* at his Coming, they must be regathered, transformed, and return in revelation with Christ at the same moment of time, as lightning, and in the twinkling of an eye.
            While I agree Christ's return is fast, the wording "twinkling of an eye" is only used for the resurrection and the living being changed.

            1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

            This is the only time the phrase appears in scripture. IMO it should only be used to describe the two events mentioned in that verse.
            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

              While I agree Christ's return is fast, the wording "twinkling of an eye" is only used for the resurrection and the living being changed.

              1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

              This is the only time the phrase appears in scripture. IMO it should only be used to describe the two events mentioned in that verse.
              Very true.

              What you seem to be missing is that Jesus is coming in vengeance of those who persecute the saved through the whole Gospel era.
              They are met with eternal separation from the glory of his appearing...... while we are glorified by that same appearing.


              2Thes 1
              This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
              6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

              7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well

              when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

              8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
              9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
              10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                While I agree Christ's return is fast, the wording "twinkling of an eye" is only used for the resurrection and the living being changed.

                1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

                This is the only time the phrase appears in scripture. IMO it should only be used to describe the two events mentioned in that verse.
                I don't really know, but it appears to me that "in the twinkling of an eye" stems from Jesus' description of his coming "like lightning." Both represent light and quickness. Correct me if I'm wrong?

                Let's think about it for a moment. If all eyes are on the sky, as the heavens seem to burn up in a final world war, we may see something like lightning in a split second of time. And our eyes will reflect a "twinkle," ie the light from the lightning-like explosion in the heavens.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by randyk View Post

                  I don't really know, but it appears to me that "in the twinkling of an eye" stems from Jesus' description of his coming "like lightning." Both represent light and quickness. Correct me if I'm wrong?

                  Let's think about it for a moment. If all eyes are on the sky, as the heavens seem to burn up in a final world war, we may see something like lightning in a split second of time. And our eyes will reflect a "twinkle," ie the light from the lightning-like explosion in the heavens.
                  The problem with that is the resurrection and changing of the living happen before anyone else will see Christ appearing in the sky in lightning or brightness.

                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • I said:
                    "are you saying that when Jesus comes, He takes all saints to heaven for transformation and then returns all "in the same moment of time"?"
                    Originally posted by randyk View Post
                    Yes, my method is that I take the original doctrine in the Bible, if it can be located, and then find NT doctrine as based on that. In this case, Dan 7 is one of the great passages of Scripture that refers to the return of the Son of Man with the clouds. If you'll notice, Jesus himself referred to his coming as the "Son of Man." And passages in the book of Revelation indicate the same. They are all relating back to Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven.
                    OK, but what specific verse(s) say that Jesus takes souls back to heaven for "transformation" and then returns immediately?

                    Of course there is much more about the Messiah and about the coming of the Kingdom in OT prophecy. Christ's Coming is depicted as lightning, in Jesus' Olivet Discourse. And NT doctrine looks back on this, also depicting the events that surround Jesus' Coming as sudden, like lightning, or like the "twinkling of an eye."
                    What I am interested in are verses that clearly indicate that Jesus takes souls to heaven, where they are transformed, and then comes right back to earth.

                    The transformation is instantaneous, as Paul points out in 1 Cor 15.
                    That occurs "in the clouds" when Jesus comes to earth. There is no mention of resurrection/rapture occuring in heaven.

                    And the Rapture, I would suppose, is also instantaneous because it is linked with Christ's "descent from heaven" in Dan 7.
                    I wish you would cite verses, so I could read what you are referring to. Thanks.

                    If Christ is descending when he gathers his people, then the gathering itself must be instantaneous, and the transformation, which takes place at the same time, must also be instantaneous.
                    Agreed. And the Bible says it all occurs "in the clouds".

                    If the saints are to appear *with Christ* at his Coming, they must be regathered, transformed, and return in revelation with Christ at the same moment of time, as lightning, and in the twinkling of an eye.
                    It is easy to understand "saints appear with Christ" to mean all those who are already in heaven (dead saints) and those gathered when He comes in the clouds (living saints).

                    Anyway, that's my logic. I see no reason for this to take any time at all. God is not bound by the laws of physics. To do something God takes only as much time as He wishes.
                    The only thing I'm curious about is this trip to heaven for "transformation" and then immediately going back to earth. I see no reason for going to heaven and then returning.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                      I said:
                      "are you saying that when Jesus comes, He takes all saints to heaven for transformation and then returns all "in the same moment of time"?"

                      OK, but what specific verse(s) say that Jesus takes souls back to heaven for "transformation" and then returns immediately?
                      It's a combination of important "source" material. The origin of the Son of Man coming with the clouds is Dan 7, and all paraphernalia associated with that in the NT is linked to that. Jesus' own comments on it become "source material" in its own right. He said that when the Son of Man comes with the clouds, his people will be gathered by angels. This all happens at his descent from heaven.

                      So when we look at NT passages that deal with the 2nd Coming, we go back both to Dan 7 and to the Olivet Discourse, where Jesus said he will, at that time, gather his people by means of the angels.

                      Furthermore, Jesus' life itself became important "source material" for understanding *why* these things happen in conjunction with the 2nd Coming. Since Jesus came *for us* as Messiah and as atoning sacrifice, what he did is also so that we can benefit from it.

                      If Jesus died, we also suffer the loss of what represents our carnal will, as we choose Christ's will instead. If he rose from the dead, we acquire the ability to do good deeds, apart from the condemnation associated with our Sin Nature, which Jesus forgave on the cross.

                      And finally, if Jesus ascended into heaven to complete his glorification, this means we also must be glorified by being caught up to God in heaven. This is so that we may participate with him in his descent from heaven, in accordance with Jesus' account of it in Matt 24. All this accords with Jesus' explanation of the Coming of the Son of Man with the clouds in Dan 7.

                      1) Jesus is descending from heaven at the end of the age. Dan 7.
                      2) Jesus is coming to gather his people, the saints. Matt 24.
                      3) The saints are enabled to participate with Jesus in his glory.

                      John 17.24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world."

                      So they follow Jesus' pattern of glorification by being caught up to heaven in order to participate in his glorious appearance. It is all a single event, based on Dan 7 and Matt 24.

                      You have to understand:

                      1) The source of the event in Dan 7.
                      2) Jesus' explanation about the event in Matt 24.
                      3) The purpose of our glorification, which is to participate in Christ's Coming with his Kingdom.

                      Since these things all happen in accordance with Dan 7, they all take place at the same moment in time. They all take place at the end of the age and at the coming of Christ's Kingdom. They take place in the context of Antichrist's destruction.

                      Comment


                      • I said:
                        "are you saying that when Jesus comes, He takes all saints to heaven for transformation and then returns all "in the same moment of time"?"

                        OK, but what specific verse(s) say that Jesus takes souls back to heaven for "transformation" and then returns immediately?
                        Originally posted by randyk View Post
                        It's a combination of important "source" material. The origin of the Son of Man coming with the clouds is Dan 7, and all paraphernalia associated with that in the NT is linked to that. Jesus' own comments on it become "source material" in its own right. He said that when the Son of Man comes with the clouds, his people will be gathered by angels. This all happens at his descent from heaven.
                        None of this answers my question about verses that say that Jesus takes His saints back up to heaven "for transformation" and then immediately returns back to earth.

                        I KNOW that Jesus will come "in (or with) the clouds", as EVERY NT verse associated with the coming of Jesus mentions "the clouds". That is not at issue here. The issue is Jesus taking His saints back to heaven, whether He immediately returns or not.

                        So when we look at NT passages that deal with the 2nd Coming, we go back both to Dan 7 and to the Olivet Discourse, where Jesus said he will, at that time, gather his people by means of the angels.
                        Yes, true. That is not at issue. The sole with you is your claim that Jesus takes His saints back to heaven "for transformation" and them immediately returns to earth.

                        And Dan 7 says nothing about any of that. Nor does any NT verse.

                        Furthermore, Jesus' life itself became important "source material" for understanding *why* these things happen in conjunction with the 2nd Coming. Since Jesus came *for us* as Messiah and as atoning sacrifice, what he did is also so that we can benefit from it.
                        Does not address the sole issure here.

                        If Jesus died, we also suffer the loss of what represents our carnal will, as we choose Christ's will instead. If he rose from the dead, we acquire the ability to do good deeds, apart from the condemnation associated with our Sin Nature, which Jesus forgave on the cross.
                        This is just more irrelevant information. Which is NOT at issue here.

                        And finally, if Jesus ascended into heaven to complete his glorification, this means we also must be glorified by being caught up to God in heaven.
                        OK, this is where the wheels of your cart fall off. Jesus was glorified by the FACT of His resurrection from the dead, period. He didn't need to "complete His glorification" as you presume.

                        If He did, what verse says that? There are NONE. And when He comes to earth (in the clouds), and resurrects all dead saints, and changes all living saints, THAT in itself is the glorification of believers. No one has to go to heaven for glorification completion.

                        This is so that we may participate with him in his descent from heaven, in accordance with Jesus' account of it in Matt 24.
                        In Matt 24, that is referring to the DEAD saints that are already in heaven, which will be the VAST MAJORITY of saints by the time the second advent occurs. The living saints will be just a very small percentage of all saints.

                        All this accords with Jesus' explanation of the Coming of the Son of Man with the clouds in Dan 7.
                        There is NOTHING in Dan 7 or any other OT book or any book in the NT that says that Jesus

                        1) Jesus is descending from heaven at the end of the age. Dan 7.
                        2) Jesus is coming to gather his people, the saints. Matt 24.
                        3) The saints are enabled to participate with Jesus in his glory.
                        All of this is true, and NONE of this addresses or supports your presumption that Jesus takes ANY saints back to heaven at the resurrection/rapture.

                        John 17.24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world."

                        So they follow Jesus' pattern of glorification by being caught up to heaven in order to participate in his glorious appearance. It is all a single event, based on Dan 7 and Matt 24.
                        Nothing said here is supported by your quote of Scripture above.

                        You have to understand:

                        1) The source of the event in Dan 7.
                        2) Jesus' explanation about the event in Matt 24.
                        3) The purpose of our glorification, which is to participate in Christ's Coming with his Kingdom.
                        I think you have a very serious problem. You make claims that you cannot defend from Scripture.

                        Since these things all happen in accordance with Dan 7, they all take place at the same moment in time. They all take place at the end of the age and at the coming of Christ's Kingdom. They take place in the context of Antichrist's destruction.
                        Again, true, and does NOT address your presumptions about saints going back to heaven "for glorification" and then coming back to earth.

                        All presumption. No evidence.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                          I said:
                          "are you saying that when Jesus comes, He takes all saints to heaven for transformation and then returns all "in the same moment of time"?"

                          OK, but what specific verse(s) say that Jesus takes souls back to heaven for "transformation" and then returns immediately?

                          None of this answers my question about verses that say that Jesus takes His saints back up to heaven "for transformation" and then immediately returns back to earth.

                          I KNOW that Jesus will come "in (or with) the clouds", as EVERY NT verse associated with the coming of Jesus mentions "the clouds". That is not at issue here. The issue is Jesus taking His saints back to heaven, whether He immediately returns or not.
                          I guess you're not getting the point, so I'll try again. All of the NT verses on Jesus' Coming relate back to Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes with the clouds. We know this precisely because the same language is used, including "Son of Man" and "clouds." I know you know this. I'm just pointing it out so that it becomes clear to you that all of these Scriptures have a common origin.

                          So if they all have a common origin in certain source material that depicts the event with certain elements, then we can know that 1) all of these elements take place at the same time, and 2) we know what these elements mean by how they are being depicted at the very source of the doctrine.

                          If, for example, the event is depicted in Dan 7, then all of the activity--not just the "Son of Man" and the "clouds"--have their explanation in that particular context. We can then know why Jesus later explains this as a "gathering of saints" by the angels. It is because in Dan 7 the Son of Man ends his session in heavenly court with a mission to defeat Antichrist and to establish his Kingdom on earth. This Kingdom is clearly being done *for the saints,* so that we know *why* Jesus gathers them to heaven. It is to prepare them for rule in his Kingdom!

                          If then Jesus comes back to establish his Kingdom and to destroy Antichrist on a single day (Dan 7), and if we know the saints, who will rule in this Kingdom, will be gathered on the same day (Matt 24), then we also know that when the Son of Man descends with the clouds of heaven he will gather his saints to enable them to return with him on the same exact day.

                          And we know how they need to be equipped to rule with him, by being transformed exactly in the way Jesus was transformed into his own glorious body, by ascending into heaven. Therefore, if we are to return with him in glorified bodies, we must go to heaven and return with him in an instant of time to reign with him. All of this makes sense as happening on a single day, as indicated in Dan 7. The context does not call for any period of time, outside of the Coming of the Son of Man itself.

                          If this is too complicated, then I'm sorry. It's the best I can do for now. It's just the way I think when coming to grips with biblical doctrine. I have to find the source of the doctrine in order to understand it. In this case, there is one major source, in Dan 7, and several other major sources, including Matt 24.

                          Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                          Yes, true. That is not at issue. The sole with you is your claim that Jesus takes His saints back to heaven "for transformation" and them immediately returns to earth.

                          And Dan 7 says nothing about any of that. Nor does any NT verse.
                          My point is that the source of the doctrine, Dan 7, does contain the elements from which Jesus adds more detail. The sense of the gathering of saints comes from the inheritance of the saints in the Kingdom of God, which is, in fact, there in Dan 7! It is also there in the beginning verses of Dan 12.

                          Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                          OK, this is where the wheels of your cart fall off. Jesus was glorified by the FACT of His resurrection from the dead, period. He didn't need to "complete His glorification" as you presume.
                          "Complete his glorification?" I'm not sure what you mean? I'm talking about the need to glorify the saints so that they can join the glorified Christ in the establishment of his heavenly Kingdom on the earth. Sorry, the wheels are still on the cart. This is entirely biblical!

                          Jesus had glory before he became a man, which reduced him from an immortal Being to a mortal form of that Being. He became mortal so that he could and would die. But in doing so he had every intention of obtaining his glory once again, which took place at his ascension to receive his immortality once again. At least this is the way I see it presently.

                          John 17. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

                          Jesus was saying he was about to enter into God's presence, after his death, to obtain glory.

                          Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                          If He did, what verse says that? There are NONE. And when He comes to earth (in the clouds), and resurrects all dead saints, and changes all living saints, THAT in itself is the glorification of believers. No one has to go to heaven for glorification completion.
                          John 20.17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

                          Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                          In Matt 24, that is referring to the DEAD saints that are already in heaven, which will be the VAST MAJORITY of saints by the time the second advent occurs. The living saints will be just a very small percentage of all saints...

                          All of this is true, and NONE of this addresses or supports your presumption that Jesus takes ANY saints back to heaven at the resurrection/rapture.
                          1 Thes 4.14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

                          This seems convoluted for some people, because they are not viewing what Paul is saying in the broader context of Dan 7 and Matt 24. Paul is clearly saying that *at his descent from heaven* the saints will be gathered to Jesus and be glorified in the instant he begins his descent.

                          In inheriting the Kingdom on earth we will "forever be with the Lord" in God's Kingdom, which is going to reign on earth. We are not going to be "with the Lord forever" in heaven! Rather, we will be caught up to heaven to receive immortality and return with Jesus in an instant to be forever with the Lord on earth.

                          At least, our reign will be on the earth--for the 1000 years we reign in the Millennium I'm not sure where our glorified bodies will be at--in heaven or on earth? All I know is that we will reign with Christ when he establishes his Kingdom on earth.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                            I guess you're not getting the point, so I'll try again. All of the NT verses on Jesus' Coming relate back to Dan 7
                            Rather, it's you who aren't getting the point. Dan 7 says NOTHING about Jesus resurrecting/rapturing saints and taking them back up to heaven.

                            where the Son of Man comes with the clouds.
                            Yes, every mention of the Second Advent mentions "the clouds". You still haven't proven that Jesus returns to heaven after "coming in or with the clouds".


                            We know this precisely because the same language is used, including "Son of Man" and "clouds." I know you know this. I'm just pointing it out so that it becomes clear to you that all of these Scriptures have a common origin.
                            So what? All verses about the Second Advent have a common origin.

                            If, for example, the event is depicted in Dan 7, then all of the activity--not just the "Son of Man" and the "clouds"--have their explanation in that particular context. We can then know why Jesus later explains this as a "gathering of saints" by the angels. It is because in Dan 7 the Son of Man ends his session in heavenly court with a mission to defeat Antichrist and to establish his Kingdom on earth. This Kingdom is clearly being done *for the saints,* so that we know *why* Jesus gathers them to heaven. It is to prepare them for rule in his Kingdom!
                            None of this is at dispute. It's your opinion that Jesus takes saints back to heaven.

                            If then Jesus comes back to establish his Kingdom and to destroy Antichrist on a single day (Dan 7), and if we know the saints, who will rule in this Kingdom, will be gathered on the same day (Matt 24), then we also know that when the Son of Man descends with the clouds of heaven he will gather his saints to enable them to return with him on the same exact day.[/QUOTE]
                            What are you talking about. When He comes, He brings ALL of the dead saints with Him. That means they return with Him. But the issue is your claim that Jesus returns to heaven with the resurrected/raptured saints.

                            And we know how they need to be equipped to rule with him, by being transformed exactly in the way Jesus was transformed into his own glorious body, by ascending into heaven. Therefore, if we are to return with him in glorified bodies, we must go to heaven and return with him in an instant of time to reign with him.
                            Again, you cannot prove your theory about needing to be glorified in heaven. Our glorification occurs "in the clouds" when Jesus comes from heaven to earth.

                            All of this makes sense as happening on a single day, as indicated in Dan 7.
                            What doesn't make any sense is your theory about being glorified in heaven. And Jesus taking saints back up to heaven for that, and then coming back.

                            The context does not call for any period of time, outside of the Coming of the Son of Man itself.
                            Everything you've described occurs when Jesus comes "in the clouds". There is NO RETURN TO HEAVEN.

                            If this is too complicated, then I'm sorry.
                            It's very clear. What is sorry is your theory about glorification occurring in heaven, requiring a huge U-turn back to heaven and then another huge U-turn back to earth.

                            Your theory creates several big whiplashes for all believers! lol

                            It's the best I can do for now.
                            Hou have failed to make your case.

                            It's just the way I think when coming to grips with biblical doctrine.
                            From what you claim, it is clear you don't know biblical doctrtine.

                            I have to find the source of the doctrine in order to understand it.
                            Keep searching then.

                            In this case, there is one major source, in Dan 7, and several other major sources, including Matt 24.
                            OK, in both contexts, please provide the exact verses that mention that Jesus takes saints to heaven for their glorification and then returns to earth.

                            My point is that the source of the doctrine, Dan 7, does contain the elements from which Jesus adds more detail.
                            What is lacking from your theory is any evidence for Jesus coming to earth to get the living believers, and then taking the living and dead saints back to heaven for glorification, and then returning again.

                            "Complete his glorification?" I'm not sure what you mean? I'm talking about the need to glorify the saints so that they can join the glorified Christ in the establishment of his heavenly Kingdom on the earth. Sorry, the wheels are still on the cart. This is entirely biblical!
                            NO. Show me what verse says that glorification of humans occurs in heaven. The wheels have come off your theory.

                            Jesus had glory before he became a man, which reduced him from an immortal Being to a mortal form of that Being. He became mortal so that he could and would die. But in doing so he had every intention of obtaining his glory once again, which took place at his ascension to receive his immortality once again. At least this is the way I see it presently.
                            Look, this is real simple. When Jesus was resurrected, His body was glorified THEN. At the resurrection. Not in heaven, as you presume.

                            John 17. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
                            So this is your proof text?? Sad.

                            Jesus was saying he was about to enter into God's presence, after his death, to obtain glory.
                            Wrong. Jesus' resurrected body WAS His glorification.

                            In fact, Peter, James and John got to see Jesus in His glory on the mountain.

                            John 20.17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
                            No mention of waiting for glorification by going to heaven.

                            1 Thes 4.14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
                            There is NO mention of returning to heaven, FOR ANY REASON.

                            This seems convoluted for some people, because they are not viewing what Paul is saying in the broader context of Dan 7 and Matt 24. Paul is clearly saying that *at his descent from heaven* the saints will be gathered to Jesus and be glorified in the instant he begins his descent.
                            Your theory is certainly convoluted.

                            In inheriting the Kingdom on earth we will "forever be with the Lord" in God's Kingdom, which is going to reign on earth. We are not going to be "with the Lord forever" in heaven! Rather, we will be caught up to heaven to receive immortality
                            I'd like to introduce you to 1 Cor 15. There, you will read about WHEN believers receive immortality. It is in the clouds when Jesus comes to earth. The dead will be resurrected (their physical bodies) and the living with be "changed" in the twinkling of the eye.

                            That is when all believers will receive their immortality; when their bodies are changed.

                            1 Cor 15-
                            42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
                            43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
                            44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

                            There it is; in red and white. Our glorification occurs when Jesus comes in the clouds to earth.

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                            • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              I disagree. Bickering over what I mean by when things are "completed" is an exercise in futility. To "complete" all these things at a moment of time does not have any reference whatsoever to what happens preceding that event to lead to it and what things follow after to finish off that event.
                              Is it important to know whether the Rapture is instantaneous or over a longer period of time?
                              Not really - it is more a question of dealing with God's Word correctly and NOT misappropriating one verse and its meaning for another verse and its meaning.
                              To complete something means it is FINISHED, and yet if it is NOT finished then it is wrong to claim it is.

                              To "complete" something in this sense is a general completion of the essence of these matters in one event like lightning, which is the return of Christ. "Lightning" is used to depict divine judgment. It strikes suddenly with little warning. What signs preexisted it were ignored by those who are suddenly struck with this event.
                              Lightning is used in Matthew as an explanation of VISIBILITY and NOT about duration or anything else.

                              Again, I'm not arguing over how long these final judgments took, or over how long it will take to clean things up. My point is singularly that they all have a focus point on the moment at which Christ returns like lightning.
                              Since that event is depicted as such, then more than just our transformation takes place in the same moment.
                              His appearance is SUDDEN, but then He is seen for the rest of eternity, so He is NOT seen like lightning because as soon as you see it then it is gone.
                              The judgements do NOT last a mere second, so judgement is NOT being referenced either by the connection to lightning so it is a false connection.

                              In fact, Paul's argument seems to be that since Christ returns like lightning, so also will our transformation be in an instant, like the twinkling of an eye. Nothing prevents me from going farther and suggesting that since Christ returns like lightning, the Rapture of the Church also takes place in an instant.
                              Paul makes NO such argument - you alone are.
                              Paul refers SOLELY to the CHANGE, the transformation as being like the blink of an eye (and NO mention of lightning at all.)
                              As Jesus does NOT return like lightning, but rather the VISIBILITY of His return is like lightning so you make an incorrection first connection which then leads to a further incorrect deduction.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                                Is it important to know whether the Rapture is instantaneous or over a longer period of time?
                                Not really - it is more a question of dealing with God's Word correctly and NOT misappropriating one verse and its meaning for another verse and its meaning.
                                To complete something means it is FINISHED, and yet if it is NOT finished then it is wrong to claim it is.
                                Like I said, to argue over what "completion" means is an exercise in futility. I could say he finished the race during the last mile of a 10 mile race, or I could say he finished the race when the checkered flag was waved. One is a moment in time, and the other is not.

                                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                                Lightning is used in Matthew as an explanation of VISIBILITY and NOT about duration or anything else.
                                Lightning is sudden. It is not just about light, but also about its brevity.

                                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                                His appearance is SUDDEN, but then He is seen for the rest of eternity, so He is NOT seen like lightning because as soon as you see it then it is gone.
                                The judgements do NOT last a mere second, so judgement is NOT being referenced either by the connection to lightning so it is a false connection.
                                Exercise in futility... This is all about the judgment that changes the world--not about the changed world that follows.

                                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                                Paul makes NO such argument - you alone are.
                                Paul refers SOLELY to the CHANGE, the transformation as being like the blink of an eye (and NO mention of lightning at all.)
                                As Jesus does NOT return like lightning, but rather the VISIBILITY of His return is like lightning so you make an incorrection first connection which then leads to a further incorrect deduction.
                                I'm making the argument that is natural. I don't know why it should even be argued? The coming of Christ is at the forefront of the prophecy, and it is characterized as "lightning." It represents a sudden appearance in judgment.

                                Included in that coming is the gathering of saints to participate in it. Logically, it all happens at the same moment. Why should anybody argue this? This is what we are given!

                                Paul only talks about an instant transformation of our bodies in 1 Cor 15 because that is the particular subject he is talking about. His claim is predicated on the assumption that our instant changed is connected to Christ's instant coming. If you can't or aren't willing to see that I don't know why?

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