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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • The belief of anyone receiving 'glorified bodies, or immortality at the Return of Jesus, is false and unscriptural. The ONLY time this can happen is at the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15 When the Book of Life is opened.
    Proved by how people will die during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20. Revelation 20:6

    The prophecy of 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is about the GWT Judgment, when those whose names are found in the Book of Life, will be instantly changed into immortality and then Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

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    • Originally posted by Keraz View Post
      The belief of anyone receiving 'glorified bodies, or immortality at the Return of Jesus, is false and unscriptural.
      So you don't believe what Paul wrote about it, twice?

      The ONLY time this can happen is at the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15 When the Book of Life is opened.
      Do you think that eternal life comes out of a book?? Why?

      1 Cor 15:52 says " in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

      There are no trumpets mentioned at the GWT.

      1 Thess 4-
      14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
      15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
      16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
      17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.



      Proved by how people will die during the Millennium.
      Please explain how method of death proves anything about when the saints receive their resurrection bodies.

      The prophecy of 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is about the GWT Judgment
      Without clear evidence from Scripture, this is merely an opinion. An incorrect one at that.


      Comment


      • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
        You have NOT provided an argument for the DURATION of the Rapture to be the SAME as the DURATION of the CHANGE.
        All you claimed was when Jesus said HE is SEEN like lightning is SEEN from the West when it occurs in the East (or vice versa). Jesus made NO mention in the passage of the Rapture or of the transformation.
        If you would provide an actual argument which has scripture supporting it THEN please do.
        You are the one who is arbitrarily applying a characteristic of lightning stated by Jesus to be about ONE thing - Him being SEEN - to another separate event (which occurs on the SAME day and within a similar time reference) - of the Rapture. I am not making any such arbitrary claim.
        Paul does NOT make any connection with Jesus being seen, with the transformation, and this is simply your wishful thinking. In 1 Thess 4 Paul clearly does NOT make such a connection as he notes the dead rise FIRST, which means there is a delay between the dead rising first and the living rising. In the end we meet in the clouds where Jesus is SEEN coming.
        I prefer NOT to make FALSE connections and create unsolicited assumptions and eisegesis as you seem to prefer to do.
        There is ZERO reason to say that the Rapture takes the same length of time as lightning, but there IS reason to say that the transformation is in the blink of an eye.
        Sorry, Glory, I disagree with you, and I don't hope to convince you otherwise. I disagree with everything you say, and feel the exact opposite is true. I'm not reading into it--it's natural to read Jesus' Coming like lightning as a moment in time applying to all events to happen in connection with that Coming.

        The fact the "dead rise 1st" does not indicate any time has to elapse--it's just that one will not happen without the other happening at the same time. In effect, the cessation of the state of death precedes the coming alive of a new body, which is essentially at the same moment in time. And the moment at which the living receive new bodies is the same moment at which the dead receive new bodies. It's just that the state of death is removed 1st, which involves no time at all.

        The "twinkling of an eye" is significant in that it has to do with the appearance of something. In this context I think it relates to witnessing the Coming of Jesus like lightning, or in a moment of time. The "glance" of an eye is the equivalent of witnessing the sudden appearance of Christ "like lightning."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

          It has nothing to do with any light or brightness:


          Gill:

          In the twinkling of an eye; these two the Jews not only put together as here, but make one to be as the other; so they say (k), הרגע כהרף עין, "a moment is as the twinkling of an eye". This phrase, as the twinkling of an eye, is frequently used in Jewish writings (l), to signify how speedily and suddenly anything is done, and which is the design of it here; and the apostle's meaning is, that the change upon the bodies of living saints will be so quick, that it will be done in a trice, before a man can shut his eyes and open them again; so that it will be as it were imperceptible, and without the least sensation of pain; this may also be referred to the resurrection, which will be quick, and done at once; though it seems rather, and chiefly, to respect the change of the living; what follows, indeed, favours the other sense also; for all will be quick and sudden, the coming of Christ, the raising of the dead, and the change of the living:
          Gill is not saying much different from what I'm saying. The transformation of living and dead is simultaneous and quick, which is the whole sense of a "twinkling of an eye." I prefer "glance," whereas he may prefer "blinking." I don't think it's a big difference, since both explanations reference quickness or instantaneous change. It is all associated with the quickness with which Christ returns, and relates back to Jesus saying that he will return like lightning shining across the sky. That is the speed of light and yet visible to all. All will be impacted by this sudden spiritual change in our world.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by randyk View Post
            It is all associated with the quickness with which Christ returns, and relates back to Jesus saying that he will return like lightning shining across the sky.


            It is not associated with that at all because the twinkling of an eye is how fast the resurrection and changing of bodies is which occur before the return like lightning happens.
            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post



              It is not associated with that at all because the twinkling of an eye is how fast the resurrection and changing of bodies is which occur before the return like lightning happens.
              Yea, I don't see the transformation of our bodies as preceding the Return of Christ like lightning. Jesus himself said his return will be like lightning. He never said he would come before that. That is purely a myth.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by randyk View Post

                Yea, I don't see the transformation of our bodies as preceding the Return of Christ like lightning.
                But it does because the rapture is before Christ leaves the clouds of the Earth to descend to where all eyes will see him.

                Jesus himself said his return will be like lightning.
                And there is no lightning seen at the resurrection and changing/rapture. The lightning is the more towards the completion of the second coming not part of the meeting in the clouds.

                He never said he would come before that. That is purely a myth.
                There's only one coming, but it is in stages with coming to the clouds first, then coming closer to the ground where people will see a flash of lightning. He will eventually fight at Armageddon in the air and eventually step foot on Mt Zion.




                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                  But it does because the rapture is before Christ leaves the clouds of the Earth to descend to where all eyes will see him.
                  And there is no lightning seen at the resurrection and changing/rapture. The lightning is the more towards the completion of the second coming not part of the meeting in the clouds.
                  There's only one coming, but it is in stages with coming to the clouds first, then coming closer to the ground where people will see a flash of lightning. He will eventually fight at Armageddon in the air and eventually step foot on Mt Zion.
                  Christ is not a bird flying through the sky, requiring a few minutes or some time, to get from A to B. When Christ comes it will be in a moment of time, like lightning. To separate the Rapture and the Resurrection from the moment of his Coming is to divorce from his Coming the reason for his Coming. There is no reason for him to take any time at all to go from Heaven to the Clouds. No, Daniel depicts him only as returning from heaven--not a trip from Heaven to Clouds to Earth. He "descends from heaven," according to the Scriptures. And it will take place like lightning. This is "in a twinkling, or a glance, of the eye," which casts its sight out to witness his appearing.

                  But we agree on the most important thing, that he is coming at all.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by randyk View Post

                    Christ is not a bird flying through the sky, requiring a few minutes or some time, to get from A to B. When Christ comes it will be in a moment of time, like lightning. To separate the Rapture and the Resurrection from the moment of his Coming is to divorce from his Coming the reason for his Coming. There is no reason for him to take any time at all to go from Heaven to the Clouds. No, Daniel depicts him only as returning from heaven--not a trip from Heaven to Clouds to Earth. He "descends from heaven," according to the Scriptures. And it will take place like lightning. This is "in a twinkling, or a glance, of the eye," which casts its sight out to witness his appearing.

                    But we agree on the most important thing, that he is coming at all.
                    Not only is it correct that the twinkling in a eye of the resurrection and changing of the living happens before the visible lightning return, the resurrection actually happens before the changing of the living saints' bodies happens ie: the dead in Christ rise first. There is always order in the plan of God.



                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                      Not only is it correct that the twinkling in a eye of the resurrection and changing of the living happens before the visible lightning return, the resurrection actually happens before the changing of the living saints' bodies happens ie: the dead in Christ rise first. There is always order in the plan of God.
                      In my view, it is like saying a resurrection is preceded by the dead stopping being dead. How much time is there between the dead stopping being dead and them coming back to life again? No time at all.

                      You simply mention 1st that the dead stop being dead before you say they've come back to life again. In the same way, Paul said that those who are going to be transformed among the living will not precede the dead stopping being dead, raised to life again, and then being transformed into immortality.

                      It all takes place at once, with the dead not being left behind by the living. All are transformed simultaneously.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by randyk View Post

                        All are transformed simultaneously.
                        Paul disagrees. "the dead in Christ rise first" destroys any idea of the events being "simultaneous". They happen almost simultaneously but definitely not simultaneously. Small errors give birth to bigger ones so this is important to get right.



                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                          Paul disagrees. "the dead in Christ rise first" destroys any idea of the events being "simultaneous". They happen almost simultaneously but definitely not simultaneously. Small errors give birth to bigger ones so this is important to get right.


                          How much time do you think there must be between "waking up" and seeing the light? None. Neither is there any time between coming back to life and living. Paul is only talking about the dead not being left behind in the transformation of the saints. "1st" indicates a priority, and not a period of time.

                          It's like saying, "I'm going to the store, but first I have to let go of any hesitation." Or, "I'm going to ace this test, but first I have to start with question number one."

                          The idea Paul has is not of separate events for the dead and for the living. Rather, the thought is that in the common transformation, the dead not be left behind.

                          It's like, "before you give everybody the dinner, you need to go get those outside." The thought is not the time it takes to go get those outside, but rather, the fact that they are all going to enjoy a meal together at the same time.

                          The transformation is simultaneous for both the dead and the living. It's just that the dead must not be neglected, and must be retrieved first. The thought is not about how long it takes to retrieve the dead, but about the fact they must not be neglected before the common transformation takes place. They must not be left out of that event.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                            Paul disagrees. "the dead in Christ rise first" destroys any idea of the events being "simultaneous". They happen almost simultaneously but definitely not simultaneously. Small errors give birth to bigger ones so this is important to get right.
                            No Paul doesn't. You are NOT transformed when you are resurrected from the dead. The transformation occurs AFTERWARD as Paul notes.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by randyk View Post

                              Sorry, Glory, I disagree with you, and I don't hope to convince you otherwise. I disagree with everything you say, and feel the exact opposite is true. I'm not reading into it--it's natural to read Jesus' Coming like lightning as a moment in time applying to all events to happen in connection with that Coming.
                              Why you disagree is because you are NOT paying attention to what I agree with you on, and where I disagree.
                              Jesus 100% connected His return with lightning. I have NOT disagreed with that once.
                              What I have noted though is that Jesus did NOT say that He flashes to the earth like lightning (by the way lightning rises, but that is another thing), but ONLY makes reference to how lightning is VISIBLE.
                              You can see lightning from the East when it flashes in the West. This is the ONLY comparison Jesus makes with His return.

                              The fact the "dead rise 1st" does not indicate any time has to elapse--it's just that one will not happen without the other happening at the same time. In effect, the cessation of the state of death precedes the coming alive of a new body, which is essentially at the same moment in time. And the moment at which the living receive new bodies is the same moment at which the dead receive new bodies. It's just that the state of death is removed 1st, which involves no time at all.
                              Actually it does!
                              First is first in time, therefore there IS a period of time when ONLY the dead have risen.
                              Secondly, the coming to life of your body does NOT equal your transformation.
                              Read the judgement in Rev 20. They are raised for judgement, but are NOT transformed. Transformation is an ADDITION beyond rising form the dead. This is ALSO why in scripture we have numerous stories (Old and New Testament) of people being raised to life, but they were NOT transformed.

                              The "twinkling of an eye" is significant in that it has to do with the appearance of something. In this context I think it relates to witnessing the Coming of Jesus like lightning, or in a moment of time. The "glance" of an eye is the equivalent of witnessing the sudden appearance of Christ "like lightning."
                              In this CONTEXT it is NOT about Jesus' coming but about the TRANSFORMATION by the putting on of the imperishable. This is the fine lined which the Bride has been granted to wear is finally put on and worn! The CONTEXT is the Bride and NOT the Groom.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                                Why you disagree is because you are NOT paying attention to what I agree with you on, and where I disagree.
                                Jesus 100% connected His return with lightning. I have NOT disagreed with that once...
                                I've not said you doubt that Christ comes like lightning. Obviously not!

                                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                                Actually it does!
                                First is first in time, therefore there IS a period of time when ONLY the dead have risen.
                                I don't think so. I think Paul's intent is to say that the dead will not be neglected in the transformation, so that the transformation event will include both the dead and the living.

                                "First" here does not suggest a period of time, but rather, the absence of neglect. The condition that must take place "first" is remembering to include the dead in the general transformation event.

                                The dead must not stay dead. Obviously that happens when they join the living, all of whom share in that singular glorious transformation event. It requires no time at all for the dead to join the living. Being resurrected to appear in transformed bodies means they take place simultaneously, in my thinking.

                                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                                Secondly, the coming to life of your body does NOT equal your transformation.
                                Read the judgement in Rev 20. They are raised for judgement, but are NOT transformed. Transformation is an ADDITION beyond rising form the dead. This is ALSO why in scripture we have numerous stories (Old and New Testament) of people being raised to life, but they were NOT transformed.
                                Again, I disagree. coming back to life does indeed equal transformation in this context. Certainly it is not true in all biblical contexts, but we're here talking only about Jesus' 2nd Coming--not earlier biblical events in which people were raised back up in their old, healed bodies.

                                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                                In this CONTEXT it is NOT about Jesus' coming but about the TRANSFORMATION by the putting on of the imperishable. This is the fine lined which the Bride has been granted to wear is finally put on and worn! The CONTEXT is the Bride and NOT the Groom.
                                Your eschatology separates the 2nd Coming and the transformation event. I believe Jesus said he was Coming back precisely for the transformation event. But I suppose you will interpret those verses to suit your theology.

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