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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by randyk View Post

    How much time do you think there must be between "waking up" and seeing the light? None.
    No, there is some plus the people who "woke up" are part of that lightning return. It's going to be seen by the unsaved on the Earth. It's not meant for those who are part of it.


    Neither is there any time between coming back to life and living. Paul is only talking about the dead not being left behind in the transformation of the saints. "1st" indicates a priority, and not a period of time.
    "First" indicates that the resurrection happens before the changing and rapturing of the living. You think they are simultaneous along with the lightning return but that is clearly incorrect.



    The idea Paul has is not of separate events for the dead and for the living.
    They are most certainly separate events that happen closely in time.


    The transformation is simultaneous for both the dead and the living.
    It's just that the dead must not be neglected, and must be retrieved first.
    Apparently you don't understand what the word simultaneous means. If one happens before the other, there is not such concept of "simultaneous". The correct word would be sequential.



    The thought is not about how long it takes to retrieve the dead
    The dead are already in heaven so there is no such retrieval.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
      No, there is some plus the people who "woke up" are part of that lightning return. It's going to be seen by the unsaved on the Earth. It's not meant for those who are part of it.
      I don't agree. Jesus told *his disciples* that he was coming like lightning. This indicates the sign is for both believers and unbelievers.

      Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

      Jesus is warning *Christians* here that they are not to be deceived by an earthly coming, but are to rather expect an heavenly coming. This indicates both believers and unbelievers will see it. Believers can expect to be gathered. And the wicked can expect to be judged.

      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
      "First" indicates that the resurrection happens before the changing and rapturing of the living. You think they are simultaneous along with the lightning return but that is clearly incorrect.
      No, I'm not incorrect. "First" is a reference not to a period of time, but rather, to an immediate priority, as in 1st one wakes, and then is conscious. These two things, though ordered, are really simultaneous, or piggybacking events. And since the event itself takes place in a split second, I have to assume they are simultaneous.

      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
      They are most certainly separate events that happen closely in time.
      If you split a second, you still have both events happening in the same second. I happen to think they are simultaneous, with the dead being prioritized only because otherwise they seem neglected. It's like saying, "There's going to be a party, but don't forget about inviting your neighbors, as well." All are going to be at the same party, but when it happens, it will include the neighbors. The time spent in inviting neighbors is irrelevant in this example, because the time spent in bringing up the dead is instantaneous.

      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
      Apparently you don't understand what the word simultaneous means. If one happens before the other, there is not such concept of "simultaneous". The correct word would be sequential.
      The word "first" indicates a priority, and in this case, does not require any length of time. It is simultaneous with the event that otherwise would be take place without the dead. The fact the dead are prioritized simply means they will participate in the event *at the same time.*

      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
      The dead are already in heaven so there is no such retrieval.
      That's part of my point. It requires no time at all to retrieve their spirits. They are already with God in heaven. The fact that their bodies have disintegrated on the earth indicated to some that they may be neglected as part of the transformation event. But God has made it a priority that they be included, which requires no time at all. They are simply made "first" so that no assembly will take place without them.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by randyk View Post

        I don't agree. Jesus told *his disciples* that he was coming like lightning. This indicates the sign is for both believers and unbelievers.
        How so? The believers will be in that lightning with Christ. When that is seen, there won't be any believers on the Earth.




        Jesus is warning *Christians* here that they are not to be deceived by an earthly coming, but are to rather expect an heavenly coming. This indicates both believers and unbelievers will see it. Believers can expect to be gathered. And the wicked can expect to be judged.
        That's still impossible since all believers will be following Christ at that time not watching it happen from the Earth.


        No, I'm not incorrect. "First" is a reference not to a period of time, but rather, to an immediate priority, as in 1st one wakes, and then is conscious.
        No one thinks it means time. It is the priority event which makes it happen before the changing of the living. You say it's all simultaneous when the text says it is not.


        These two things, though ordered, are really simultaneous, or piggybacking events.
        Now you are just arguing with yourself and talking both positions. They are ordered. They are NOT simultaneous.



        And since the event itself takes place in a split second, I have to assume they are simultaneous.
        lol, you have assumed they are simultaneous and ordered at the same time. Both cannot be true.



        If you split a second, you still have both events happening in the same second. I happen to think they are simultaneous, with the dead being prioritized only because otherwise they seem neglected. It's like saying, "There's going to be a party, but don't forget about inviting your neighbors, as well." All are going to be at the same party, but when it happens, it will include the neighbors. The time spent in inviting neighbors is irrelevant in this example, because the time spent in bringing up the dead is instantaneous.
        Go to dictionary.com and read what simultaneous means.


        The word "first" indicates a priority, and in this case, does not require any length of time. It is simultaneous with the event that otherwise would be take place without the dead. The fact the dead are prioritized simply means they will participate in the event *at the same time.*

        Not at the same time. One happens before the other does. They are sequential events. the dead in Christ rise first, then closely after the living shall change.



        That's part of my point. It requires no time at all to retrieve their spirits.
        There is no retrieving at all regarding the dead that resurrect. Only the living need to be retrieved.






        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          How so? The believers will be in that lightning with Christ. When that is seen, there won't be any believers on the Earth.
          They are to watch for it, to discount anything less than lightning from heaven. Yes, it will be instantaneous, like a quick glance.

          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          That's still impossible since all believers will be following Christ at that time not watching it happen from the Earth.
          Jesus indicated we should be expecting it from a vantage point on the earth. When it happens, the Church will be on earth expecting it from heaven.

          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          No one thinks it means time. It is the priority event which makes it happen before the changing of the living. You say it's all simultaneous when the text says it is not.
          Actually, some do believe there must be a period of time associated with the resurrection, separate from the Rapture, that separates these 2 events in time. "First," however, means to "not leave out," rather than referring to separate time periods. It is a single event that both the dead and the living participate in. The only distinguishing factor is that one group is dead whereas the other is living. The dead must join the living "first." But both participate in the same event. And it takes no time at all for the dead to join the living.

          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
          Now you are just arguing with yourself and talking both positions. They are ordered. They are NOT simultaneous.
          lol, you have assumed they are simultaneous and ordered at the same time. Both cannot be true.
          I've explained how they can both be true. The dead join the living, and both dead and living experience a simultaneous transformation. "First" implies that the dead must first join the living. This does not take any span of time. It is an assurance that God is not derelict in neglecting to include the dead with the living in a simultaneous transformation.

          If you can't buy into this, we're done. I have nothing more to argue at this time. If you don't believe the transformation is simultaneous, then you will have to show, beyond the word "first," that these are separate events, because in my Bible the immortalization of the saints, dead and living, is always portrayed as a single event. Your application of "first" doesn't cut it for me.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

            Where do you think the bride is at right before the 7th trump? In some in heaven and some on the Earth yet NJ is in heaven only. Just because the resurrection and rapture happen and all live on the Earth does not mean NJ also comes. It remains in heaven until the NHNE in Revelation 21 just as John wrote and I am going to agree with John's version and not yours.

            .The 7/8th kings does not support the eisegesis of an 8th trump. No where in Revelation is there any support for an extra trumpet. You are just inserting that yourself. It doesn't exist.

            Your going way off into the deep end. You really don't understand scripture and should not be teaching your version of it.

            1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

            That has nothing to do with people dying as Christians and remaining dead until the resurrection.
            According to Rev 8-9, only SEVEN trump calls are mentioned. The claim of an eight trump is a baseless assumption.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by randyk View Post

              They are to watch for it, to discount anything less than lightning from heaven.
              How can they watch for it when they won't be on the Earth when it happens??


              Jesus indicated we should be expecting it from a vantage point on the earth. When it happens, the Church will be on earth expecting it from heaven.
              That's impossible. The church is raptured before Christ descends from the clouds to be seen in this lightning event. Just because he described it to us doesn't mean it's a sign for us to see. The only view of it will be from behind Christ as they will also be returning in a flash of lightning.



              Actually, some do believe there must be a period of time associated with the resurrection, separate from the Rapture, that separates these 2 events in time. "First," however, means to "not leave out," rather than referring to separate time periods.
              That is not the definition of first:

              G4412
              πρῶτον
              prōton
              pro'-ton
              Neuter of G4413 as an adverb (with or without G3588); firstly (in time, place, order, or importance): - before, at the beginning, chiefly, (at, at the) first (of all).
              Total KJV occurrences: 60

              This proves that the resurrection happens BEFORE the changing of the living saint's bodies.


              It is a single event that both the dead and the living participate in.
              No, it's two events. The dead don't participate in the events involving the living and the living don't participate in the events involving the dead. As I have said here for years, the dead aren't raptured and the living aren't resurrected.




              The only distinguishing factor is that one group is dead whereas the other is living. The dead must join the living "first." But both participate in the same event. And it takes no time at all for the dead to join the living.
              Yes it takes time. We are outright told it happens in the blink of an eye. It's a brief amount of time but it is time.

              I've explained how they can both be true. The dead join the living, and both dead and living experience a simultaneous transformation.
              Your interjection of "simultaneous" contradicts what Paul told us. He did not say the two events happen simultaneously. He explicitly said one happens before the other. Why change it to something you personally think will happen?





              "First" implies that the dead must first join the living.
              And that is expressed better as "rise first" which has the same meaning as resurrect first which is directly related to Revelation 20's "first resurrection".

              This does not take any span of time.
              Of course it does and that's why I side with the amount of time Paul said it will take.



              It is an assurance that God is not derelict in neglecting to include the dead with the living in a simultaneous transformation.
              Not according to the scriptures which inform us it is an assurance that God will resurrect the dead before the living are changed and raptured.

              If you can't buy into this, we're done. I have nothing more to argue at this time. If you don't believe the transformation is simultaneous, then you will have to show, beyond the word "first," that these are separate events, because in my Bible the immortalization of the saints, dead and living, is always portrayed as a single event. Your application of "first" doesn't cut it for me.
              That word destroys your irrational eisegesis. Stop changing what a word means, and stop ignoring that word if you want any chance of having a correct exegesis. The resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen first, before anything happens to the living. There's a very very very small amount of time inbetween the two but all details are important.




              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                According to Rev 8-9, only SEVEN trump calls are mentioned. The claim of an eight trump is a baseless assumption.
                Extremely baseless but isn't that the base of eisegesis anyways? Yep.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                  How can they watch for it when they won't be on the Earth when it happens??




                  That's impossible. The church is raptured before Christ descends from the clouds to be seen in this lightning event. Just because he described it to us doesn't mean it's a sign for us to see. The only view of it will be from behind Christ as they will also be returning in a flash of lightning.





                  That is not the definition of first:

                  G4412
                  πρῶτον
                  prōton
                  pro'-ton
                  Neuter of G4413 as an adverb (with or without G3588); firstly (in time, place, order, or importance): - before, at the beginning, chiefly, (at, at the) first (of all).
                  Total KJV occurrences: 60

                  This proves that the resurrection happens BEFORE the changing of the living saint's bodies.




                  No, it's two events. The dead don't participate in the events involving the living and the living don't participate in the events involving the dead. As I have said here for years, the dead aren't raptured and the living aren't resurrected.






                  Yes it takes time. We are outright told it happens in the blink of an eye. It's a brief amount of time but it is time.



                  Your interjection of "simultaneous" contradicts what Paul told us. He did not say the two events happen simultaneously. He explicitly said one happens before the other. Why change it to something you personally think will happen?







                  And that is expressed better as "rise first" which has the same meaning as resurrect first which is directly related to Revelation 20's "first resurrection".



                  Of course it does and that's why I side with the amount of time Paul said it will take.





                  Not according to the scriptures which inform us it is an assurance that God will resurrect the dead before the living are changed and raptured.



                  That word destroys your irrational eisegesis. Stop changing what a word means, and stop ignoring that word if you want any chance of having a correct exegesis. The resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen first, before anything happens to the living. There's a very very very small amount of time inbetween the two but all details are important.



                  I'm done with this absurd discussion. You argue over whether 2 events taking place with a second of time are simultaneous or not? I have better things to do with my time.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by randyk View Post

                    I'm done with this absurd discussion. You argue over whether 2 events taking place with a second of time are simultaneous or not? I have better things to do with my time.
                    The events are sequential not simultaneous. Simultaneous is a word that means things happen at the same time. Sequential means an event happens before the other event happens. You are simply wrong on that but you are right that there is some absurdity in the discussion.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                      The events are sequential not simultaneous. Simultaneous is a word that means things happen at the same time. Sequential means an event happens before the other event happens. You are simply wrong on that but you are right that there is some absurdity in the discussion.
                      Yes, I told you that the event that precedes the other is a reminder not to neglect including the dead with the living. Both are transformed *at the same time.*

                      What happens "first" is the dead have to be brought back to life. That happens *when they are transformed.*

                      Their spirits are already alive with God in heave. Only their bodies are "dead." To bring their bodies back to life "first" only means that their bodies will be recreated together with the bodies that the living will inherit.

                      I believe this event is simultaneous. You do not. No big deal! What happens "first," if you will, is that the departed spirits obtain the right to obtain new bodies. They are not left behind in the process. They are not left out, or neglected. They are not ignored. This is what happens "first." They are remembered so as to be included in a *simultaneous* event that takes place in a "twinkling of an eye."

                      I do note that you disagree. Please note that I disagree with you equally, and let's move on to something else then?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by randyk View Post

                        Yes, I told you that the event that precedes the other is a reminder not to neglect including the dead with the living. Both are transformed *at the same time.*

                        What happens "first" is the dead have to be brought back to life. That happens *when they are transformed.*

                        Their spirits are already alive with God in heave. Only their bodies are "dead." To bring their bodies back to life "first" only means that their bodies will be recreated together with the bodies that the living will inherit.

                        I believe this event is simultaneous. You do not. No big deal! What happens "first," if you will, is that the departed spirits obtain the right to obtain new bodies. They are not left behind in the process. They are not left out, or neglected. They are not ignored. This is what happens "first." They are remembered so as to be included in a *simultaneous* event that takes place in a "twinkling of an eye."
                        There are several events at that timeframe and NONE are "simultaneous".



                        I do note that you disagree. Please note that I disagree with you equally, and let's move on to something else then?
                        That will be up to you if you wish.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          According to Rev 8-9, only SEVEN trump calls are mentioned. The claim of an eight trump is a baseless assumption.
                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          Extremely baseless but isn't that the base of eisegesis anyways? Yep.
                          The view that Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet, which occurs during the first half of the Trib is extreme baseless.

                          But, as you say, isn't that the basis of eisegesis anyways? Yep.

                          There is a series of 7 trumpet judgments, followed by a series of 7 bowl judgments, and THEN the FINAL trumpet, when Jesus Christ comes back.

                          Comment


                          • [QUOTE=randyk;n2734733]I don't think so. I think Paul's intent is to say that the dead will not be neglected in the transformation, so that the transformation event will include both the dead and the living.

                            "First" here does not suggest a period of time, but rather, the absence of neglect. The condition that must take place "first" is remembering to include the dead in the general transformation event.

                            The dead must not stay dead. Obviously that happens when they join the living, all of whom share in that singular glorious transformation event. It requires no time at all for the dead to join the living. Being resurrected to appear in transformed bodies means they take place simultaneously, in my thinking.[/QUOTE
                            Paul does include the point that the dead are NOT neglected. However first does NOT and actually NEVER speaks of an absence of neglect. It is a comparative which compares with those who are not first. Yet BOTH the first and the second are raptured, so it is NOT about one group being forgotten. Instead it is a CHRONOLOGICAL usage as is clear from CONTEXT.
                            Moreover the dead do NOT join the living on the earth, but join them in the clouds, having gone there first.
                            There is NOTHING which has the resurrection being the SAME as the transformation. In fact Paul repeatedly describes them separately, not only in Thessalonians but also in Corinthians.
                            Paul NEVER makes someone rising being identical with someone being transformed.
                            Rather it is a series of stages, first being brought to life THEN being transformed.

                            Again, I disagree. coming back to life does indeed equal transformation in this context. Certainly it is not true in all biblical contexts, but we're here talking only about Jesus' 2nd Coming--not earlier biblical events in which people were raised back up in their old, healed bodies.
                            It is NOT true in ANY Biblical context. Why ONLY here and nowhere else?
                            Jesus 2nd Coming is about Jesus returning, whilst our transformation is about US being changed. Now the TWO events are connected for Jesus returns, we are raptured THEN we are CHANGED, but they are NOT the SAME thing, anymorte than me putting on socks is the same as you putting on socks simply because we both put on socks or that we do it at the SAME time (perhaps).

                            Your eschatology separates the 2nd Coming and the transformation event. I believe Jesus said he was Coming back precisely for the transformation event. But I suppose you will interpret those verses to suit your theology.
                            No my eschatology highlights the CHRONOLOGY given WITHIN these events.
                            Jesus is coming back regardless of the transformation event. However those who are His at His return will be blessed with this transformation.
                            You however alter what Jesus said and make up your own meaning irrespective of what Jesus ACTUALLY said.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                              Extremely baseless but isn't that the base of eisegesis anyways? Yep.
                              It never ceases to amaze me how some people get some idea in their head and run riot with it. Instead of being open to reason, they all but want to sell their errant doctrine to anyone gullible enough to buy it - especially when they dress it up in vague rhetoric that looks plausible.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                                The belief of anyone receiving 'glorified bodies, or immortality at the Return of Jesus, is false and unscriptural. The ONLY time this can happen is at the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15 When the Book of Life is opened.
                                Proved by how people will die during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20. Revelation 20:6

                                The prophecy of 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is about the GWT Judgment, when those whose names are found in the Book of Life, will be instantly changed into immortality and then Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4
                                Fortunately, you acknowledged that 1000 years (the Millennial age) will exist before the Throne Judgment. I presume you also agree that the faithful in the church will resurrect/rapture before the millennium starts. So kindly tell us which body the saints will have during the millennium?

                                Comment

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