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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by randyk View Post
    How much time do you think there must be between "waking up" and seeing the light? None. Neither is there any time between coming back to life and living. Paul is only talking about the dead not being left behind in the transformation of the saints. "1st" indicates a priority, and not a period of time.

    It's like saying, "I'm going to the store, but first I have to let go of any hesitation." Or, "I'm going to ace this test, but first I have to start with question number one."

    The idea Paul has is not of separate events for the dead and for the living. Rather, the thought is that in the common transformation, the dead not be left behind.

    It's like, "before you give everybody the dinner, you need to go get those outside." The thought is not the time it takes to go get those outside, but rather, the fact that they are all going to enjoy a meal together at the same time.

    The transformation is simultaneous for both the dead and the living. It's just that the dead must not be neglected, and must be retrieved first. The thought is not about how long it takes to retrieve the dead, but about the fact they must not be neglected before the common transformation takes place. They must not be left out of that event.
    Beloved brother, your rendition of the text is subjective if you ask me. We should always interpret scripture as written and not oppose a stated fact with conjecture. It is impossible to ascertain the time difference between the resurrection of the dead and the rapture of the living.

    Let's consider a hundred (100 M) meters race by top athletes. Often the time difference between the first, second and the rest comes down to nanoseconds. Yet no one says that the first and the second crossed the line "simultaneously". Therefore when Paul said that the dead in Christ shall rise first, there is no basis to argue they and the raptured will float to the sky simultaneously. Your postulation requires the resurrected to wait for the living to rapture so that both groups can float to the air simultaneously. This view is speculative.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
      According to Rev 8-9, only SEVEN trump calls are mentioned. The claim of an eight trump is a baseless assumption.

      The view that Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet, which occurs during the first half of the Trib is extreme baseless.

      But, as you say, isn't that the basis of eisegesis anyways? Yep.

      There is a series of 7 trumpet judgments, followed by a series of 7 bowl judgments, and THEN the FINAL trumpet, when Jesus Christ comes back.
      And where did you read that the 7th trump will occur in the first half of the tribulation? To determine the supposed "first half of the tribulation", how many years did your bible say the GT will last? And now, you added an imaginative final trump call that is separate from the stated 7.

      For your position to be taken seriously, you need to explain why the 7th from the seven given number of trump calls is not the last? You MUST provide a supporting scripture that points to another trumpet call separate from the listed 7.


      Comment


      • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
        If you CREATE something fanciful THEN it will seem fanciful.
        All eyes SEE Him at His return as Matt 24:27 notes. This return is also the SAME event when we are Raptured.
        This is indisputable (though Pretrib tries to argue otherwise).
        WHY can a sinner NOT see Jesus descend, when scripture says He WILL BE SEEN!
        WHY won't those on earth be able to see the dead rise PHYSICALLY?
        WHY will the living drop their clothes? It says we will be clothed with the IMPERISHABLE, so rather than removing clothing the picture given in scripture is of putting on MORE clothing. This time a BRIGHT raiment, fine linen.
        If you believe that the meet in the air is the same as when the Lord returns when all eyes shall see him, then glory be to God. If your interpretation of the texts is that sinners on earth will see the Lord welcome his saints in the air, (ignoring the fact that Rev 1:7 says "all eyes shall see him" while 1 Thess 4:17 says the "saints will meet the Lord in the air") again, all glory to God. I don't have the energy to pursue these erroneous assumptions.

        Isn't it amazing how you come up with the most unimaginative assumptions? Where did the scriptures say that manmade materials e.g. our clothing will be raptured? If you believe that the meet in the air is the same as when the Lord returns when all eyes shall see him, then glory be to God. If your interpretation of the texts is that sinners on earth will see the Lord welcome his saints in the air, (ignoring the fact that Rev 1:7 says "all eyes shall see him" while 1 Thess 4:17 says the "saints will meet the Lord in the air") again, all glory to God. I don't have the energy to pursue these erroneous assumptions.

        Isn't it amazing how you come up with the most unimaginative assumptions? Where did the scriptures say that manmade materials e.g. our clothing will be raptured?

        How anyone can claim they are separate is stretching things. We have the Lord coming down and we have the Lord being seen coming down, and yet you say they are NOT the SAME event. Weird reasoning. Now our ascending is simply part of the events of His descent.
        Your theory is that after meeting the saints in the air, Jesus continues on the earth. Consequently, you will ignore every fact that debunks your stand. I get that. Regretfully, these discussions are no longer about searching out scriptural truths but to win an argument come rain or shine. Sad. If my memory is correct, you are Post-trib, if so, where do you place Rev 19:8?

        I do worry about your baby Christians.
        Could Adam and Eve see God (even after they sinned)? Certainly they could.
        Could Abraham see the Lord (and angels)? Certainly he could.
        Could the disciples see Jesus after He had been raised from the dead? Certainly they could.
        It is very possible for mortals to see immortals. Moreover when someone is raised form the dead the sight of them can give glory to God
        We are NOT told anywhere that the Rapture is in the twinkling of an eye. It is the CHANGE from mortality to immortality that occurs in the twinkling of an eye.
        If I have a PHYSICAL body then it is a figment of someone's imagination to say I will be invisible. I could be turned invisible but why would God do that?
        If you say that mortals can see the immortals (maybe you can, I haven't seen any) then, so be it. Paul described the rapture as an event that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. According to you, the 'rapture' is NOT in the twinkling of an eye, but rather a change from mortality into immortality. What then is the name for this change of mortality into immortality? Please tell us?

        Maybe you were half asleep when you wrote this because you are not making sense at all. Nobody said that a physical body is invisible.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
          I have no issues with my chronology.
          Rev 19:6 - 14 all occur BEFORE we are raptured. Note that in verse 14 the armies of heaven are descending with Jesus. Now some say this includes the saints, while I think it refers to the SAME armies which defeated Satan in Rev 12:7. However verse 14 could refer to us meeting Him in the clouds (heaven in Greek) and then returning with Him, for we are clothed AT THAT MOMENT when we meet Him (or just before).
          Of course, you won't see anything wrong with your doctrine. Let's agree to disagree on the timeline for Rev 19: 6-14. Although, it beats me how the bride is said to have made herself ready (v7-8) when the resurrection/rapture has not occurred. Jesus said that the church will be like the angels in the resurrection. Although the war in heaven that casts Satan out was fought by angels, the "army" accompanying the Lord on his return to earth comprised of the saints and the angels.

          This making ready continues UNTIL the end of the GT and the Rapture happens. However she is NOT a wife except that she is to be the wife.
          You are not paying attention to what is said; the text didn't say the 'bride' has made herself ready which will fit your view that Rev 19:7-8 is before the resurrection. It says the 'wife' has, and there's no way the bride (the church in the flesh and the dead) will become a wife without transformation into immortality via the resurrection/rapture. Search the scriptures whether you'll see anywhere the church is addressed as wife while in the flesh.

          Nope John was NOT in heaven when He saw this. In Rev 19:17 John is saying the birds are overhead, which places him on the earth.
          Rev 19 is also about the marriage feast and NOT the marriage itself.
          A marriage comprises various parts and you may need to understand how marriage is depicted in scripture to get this.
          However in short we have:
          The Bridegroom leaves His Father's house to get His bride.
          He brings His bride to the Feast.
          The Vows are made and the Feast occurs.
          Brother, hope you are not senile? When scripture says that a prophet/apostle is in heaven, it is generally a spiritual experience. No one ever believed that the person is literally in heaven. When John says he's in heaven, it is his spirit that is seeing what is in heaven, while his flesh is on earth. So when you say "John is not in heaven" what do you mean? And which passages speak of "vows being made and the feast" because the only supper cited is the carcasses of the slain consumed by vultures? I don't suppose this is the "feast" you want the saints to eat?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            And where did you read that the 7th trump will occur in the first half of the tribulation? To determine the supposed "first half of the tribulation", how many years did your bible say the GT will last? And now, you added an imaginative final trump call that is separate from the stated 7.
            Noted scholars say that ch 3-11 covers the first half and ch 12-19 the second half. And the Bible says nothing about timing.

            For your position to be taken seriously, you need to explain why the 7th from the seven given number of trump calls is not the last?
            Easy explanation. There are 3 sets of 7 judgments; seals, trumpets, and finally bowls. I believe the judgments are sequential; some believe they occur at the same time. So, the 7th trumpet cannot be the last one since there is another set of judgments coming.

            You MUST provide a supporting scripture that points to another trumpet call separate from the listed 7.
            I "must", huh? The very words of Scripture are enough. Since there is ample evidence that there is a lot more action after the 7 trumpets, another trumpet after the set of judgments would obvously be the last one.

            Now, you MUST provide supporting Scripture that proves that all 3 sets of judgments occur simultaneously.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

              Beloved brother, your rendition of the text is subjective if you ask me. We should always interpret scripture as written and not oppose a stated fact with conjecture. It is impossible to ascertain the time difference between the resurrection of the dead and the rapture of the living.

              Let's consider a hundred (100 M) meters race by top athletes. Often the time difference between the first, second and the rest comes down to nanoseconds. Yet no one says that the first and the second crossed the line "simultaneously". Therefore when Paul said that the dead in Christ shall rise first, there is no basis to argue they and the raptured will float to the sky simultaneously. Your postulation requires the resurrected to wait for the living to rapture so that both groups can float to the air simultaneously. This view is speculative.
              It's okay to disagree, right? I realize that the word "first" is there, indicating an order. And this normally suggests that one event precedes another in time. But in this particular case, I do believe the transforming event happens to both living and dead simultaneously. It's just that the dead must be raised first. And that is inconsequential to the actual time of the transformation. The awakening precedes the rising, which both groups experience simultaneously. By "rising" I refer not to resurrection but to transformation.

              If we disagree, so be it. My mind is made up.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                Paul does include the point that the dead are NOT neglected. However first does NOT and actually NEVER speaks of an absence of neglect. It is a comparative which compares with those who are not first. Yet BOTH the first and the second are raptured, so it is NOT about one group being forgotten. Instead it is a CHRONOLOGICAL usage as is clear from CONTEXT.
                Sorry, I used some very poor English. I meant to say that "first" here refers to God's wish to show he is not engaging in a dereliction of duty by failing to include the dead with the living in the transformation. And that is precisely how I think "first" is being used here.

                Example: 2 children playing. 1 child says, "I must first clean up my room, and then we can play. Both children then play simultaneously.

                "First" here indicates a duty must be accomplished in order for a simultaneous event for both children to take place. Obviously, the chore must be done first in time before the simultaneous event.

                But in our example, Paul only explains that the dead must not be neglected--there is no "chore" to be performed "first" in time. The simultaneous transformation then ensues without any preceding "chore."

                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                Moreover the dead do NOT join the living on the earth, but join them in the clouds, having gone there first.
                I never said the dead join the living on the earth. The dead spirits are already alive with God in heaven. They are "dead" only in the sense that they do not yet have new resurrection bodies.

                There is no time needed for the dead to join the living in the clouds. It is a simultaneous event. The dead are already in heaven, and the living join them in a second of time. They are then transformed at that very moment of time, simultaneously. Sorry, just my opinion.

                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                There is NOTHING which has the resurrection being the SAME as the transformation. In fact Paul repeatedly describes them separately, not only in Thessalonians but also in Corinthians.
                Paul assumes the resurrection and the transformation are simultaneous when he said that the dead will be raised up to participate in the transformation of all the saints.

                I wouldn't deny that the resurrection means something different from transformation because they are two different words with two different meanings. The question is: do they happen simultaneously--not are they two different words?

                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                Paul NEVER makes someone rising being identical with someone being transformed.
                Rather it is a series of stages, first being brought to life THEN being transformed.
                Don't agree. See above. The whole purpose of the passage in 1 Thes 4 is to show that the dead are not going to be left out of the singular transformation event.

                They are therefore simultaneous, in the words of Paul. "First" merely indicates that the dead will not be left out--they will "awake" to participate in a simultaneous event, the transformation.

                If you want to say anything precedes the other in time, it could only be the "awakening" of spirits of dead bodies to new resurrection bodies. That indicates the resurrection experience is simultaneous with the transformation experience. Being "awakened" precedes transformation with zero lapse in time.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by randyk View Post

                  It's okay to disagree, right? I realize that the word "first" is there, indicating an order. And this normally suggests that one event precedes another in time. But in this particular case, I do believe the transforming event happens to both living and dead simultaneously. It's just that the dead must be raised first. And that is inconsequential to the actual time of the transformation. The awakening precedes the rising, which both groups experience simultaneously. By "rising" I refer not to resurrection but to transformation.

                  If we disagree, so be it. My mind is made up.
                  Given all the discussion about any supposed differences between the dead being resurrected and the living being changed, how about we all just agree that when Jesus comes, ALL believers, both the living and the dead, will receive their glorified bodies?

                  Because that is exactly what the dead and living believers will receive.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by randyk View Post

                    It's okay to disagree, right? I realize that the word "first" is there, indicating an order. And this normally suggests that one event precedes another in time. But in this particular case, I do believe the transforming event happens to both living and dead simultaneously. It's just that the dead must be raised first. And that is inconsequential to the actual time of the transformation. The awakening precedes the rising, which both groups experience simultaneously. By "rising" I refer not to resurrection but to transformation.

                    If we disagree, so be it. My mind is made up.
                    Given all the discussion about any supposed differences between the dead being resurrected and the living being changed, how about we all just agree that when Jesus comes, ALL believers, both the living and the dead, will receive their glorified bodies?

                    Because that is exactly what the dead and living believers will receive.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                      Given all the discussion about any supposed differences between the dead being resurrected and the living being changed, how about we all just agree that when Jesus comes, ALL believers, both the living and the dead, will receive their glorified bodies?

                      Because that is exactly what the dead and living believers will receive.
                      Yea, that's kind of where I've been this whole time, as long as we're talking about the same day. What does it really matter? Thanks!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                        It's okay to disagree, right? I realize that the word "first" is there, indicating an order. And this normally suggests that one event precedes another in time. But in this particular case, I do believe the transforming event happens to both living and dead simultaneously. It's just that the dead must be raised first. And that is inconsequential to the actual time of the transformation. The awakening precedes the rising, which both groups experience simultaneously. By "rising" I refer not to resurrection but to transformation.
                        If we disagree, so be it. My mind is made up.
                        You are 100% CORRECT to say the transformation occurs to the living and the dead at the SAME time.
                        I certainly was NOT arguing otherwise.
                        However there IS a clearly stated order in the DEAD rising first (in time), and you seem to accept this.
                        The Rapture though is NOT the transformation, but simply the conveyance of those who WILL BE transformed to meet Jesus in the clouds.
                        We aren't told exactly when the transformation will happen, is it BEFORE, or DURING the Rapture. This transformation I see may well be like lightning as we will be clothed in BRIGHT raiments, and it will be like Matthew 17:2 for we shall also be transfigured into His glory. I think it happens WHEN we meet Him in the clouds.
                        Both groups do NOT rise simultaneously though, but rather we are told that the LIVING will MEET the DEAD in the clouds, which means a sequential rapture (though one event) and THEN we MEET Jesus.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                          You are 100% CORRECT to say the transformation occurs to the living and the dead at the SAME time.
                          I certainly was NOT arguing otherwise.
                          However there IS a clearly stated order in the DEAD rising first (in time), and you seem to accept this.
                          The Rapture though is NOT the transformation, but simply the conveyance of those who WILL BE transformed to meet Jesus in the clouds.
                          We aren't told exactly when the transformation will happen, is it BEFORE, or DURING the Rapture. This transformation I see may well be like lightning as we will be clothed in BRIGHT raiments, and it will be like Matthew 17:2 for we shall also be transfigured into His glory. I think it happens WHEN we meet Him in the clouds.
                          Both groups do NOT rise simultaneously though, but rather we are told that the LIVING will MEET the DEAD in the clouds, which means a sequential rapture (though one event) and THEN we MEET Jesus.
                          I see. I think I may have read too much into your argument because at the same time I'm arguing with someone else who does not believe the transformation of living and dead take place at the same time. Sorry about that!

                          I do think that resurrection takes place at the same time, for reasons given. To awake from a physical sleep (as opposed to a spiritual sleep), one needs to awake in a transformed body. Hence, the transformation is at the same time as the resurrection from the dead.

                          We may disagree on this latter point, but we certainly agree that the transformation is a singular event for both dead and living. If you wish to separate the resurrection from the transformation by a significant length of time I would have an issue with that. That's what pretribulationists try to do, separating the resurrection and Rapture of the Church from the 2nd Coming.

                          If not, then is really doesn't matter much to me if you think there has to be a gap between one thing and another. What does it matter to me if the resurrection takes place two seconds before the transformation?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                            Noted scholars say that ch 3-11 covers the first half and ch 12-19 the second half. And the Bible says nothing about timing.


                            Easy explanation. There are 3 sets of 7 judgments; seals, trumpets, and finally bowls. I believe the judgments are sequential; some believe they occur at the same time. So, the 7th trumpet cannot be the last one since there is another set of judgments coming.


                            I "must", huh? The very words of Scripture are enough. Since there is ample evidence that there is a lot more action after the 7 trumpets, another trumpet after the set of judgments would obvously be the last one.

                            Now, you MUST provide supporting Scripture that proves that all 3 sets of judgments occur simultaneously.
                            Why do we so easily over look the 4th set of judgments?

                            There are 7 Thunders between the 6th and 7th Trumpet.

                            They were sealed from being known, but not erased. The 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders make up what is left of the first 3.5 years. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming. God on the throne and the Lamb are here on earth for the final harvest. The Trumpets cover the separation of the sheep and goats. The Thunders cover the harvest of the wheat and tares. The nation of Israel and the Nations as one unit will be chosen by God and the Lamb to be stripped of Adam's flesh and blood and sent by the angels to the resurrection after the battle of Armageddon to start the Millennial Reign with Christ. These are God's judgments to purge sin out of the world.

                            The 7th Trumpet covers the last half during Satan's 42 months. Revelation 10:5-7

                            5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
                            6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
                            7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

                            The 7th Trumpet is not a single blast. It is a prolonged sound. It cannot end until sin is eradicated and the Covenant confirmed and completed.

                            It will stop as soon as the one hour battle of Armageddon with the 10 kings, Satan, the FP, and the beast/image is finished. Adam's flesh and blood are all dead. The FP and beast is cast into the Lake of Fire. Satan is bound in sheol for 1000 years. The Millennium starts with a physical bodily resurrection to an incorruptible body. Sin no longer exists nor humanity's sinful nature.

                            This can only happen when the 7th Trumpet covers what is promised. The 7th Trumpet is the one and only final Trumpet. The angel was created and designed for this very purpose.

                            If the 7th Trumpet does not cover Satan's 42 months, it means John's witness of Satan being allowed authority never happens. The last 42 months of the tribulation will never happen. There will be no battle of Armageddon. This should be enough evidence that Armageddon is not the Second Coming. The 7th Trumpet assures us the Second Coming has been completed. Not because it ends. It cannot even Sound until the work of the Second Coming is finished. The only need for Armageddon is because Satan is allowed an extension. Armageddon is not planned, but it is the end of God's longsuffering mercy. Many souls for 42 months will still reject Satan and choose to be beheaded.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              I see. I think I may have read too much into your argument because at the same time I'm arguing with someone else who does not believe the transformation of living and dead take place at the same time. Sorry about that!
                              Multiple discussions can misdirect our thoughts.

                              I do think that resurrection takes place at the same time, for reasons given. To awake from a physical sleep (as opposed to a spiritual sleep), one needs to awake in a transformed body. Hence, the transformation is at the same time as the resurrection from the dead.
                              This was the point I dealt with and scripture CONCLUSIVE shows that this is a FALSE idea.
                              We have people raised from the dead in the Old Testament, they were NOT transformed. These were PHYSICAL resurrections.
                              We have people Jesus raised from the dead in the Gospels, they were NOT transformed. These were PHYSICAL resurrections.
                              We have the graves opening with the dead entering Jerusalem AFTER His resurrection and His ascension. These were PHYSICAL resurrections.
                              Jesus Himself was PHYSICAL raised, but was probably NOT transformed UNTIL He went to the Father (from what we are told in the Gospel).
                              We have at least one person in the New Testament that was raised from the dead who was NOT transformed. This was a PHYSICAL resurrection.
                              IOW throughout ALL scripture a PHYSICAL resurrection is NOT a TRANSFORMATION.

                              We may disagree on this latter point, but we certainly agree that the transformation is a singular event for both dead and living. If you wish to separate the resurrection from the transformation by a significant length of time I would have an issue with that. That's what pretribulationists try to do, separating the resurrection and Rapture of the Church from the 2nd Coming.
                              If not, then is really doesn't matter much to me if you think there has to be a gap between one thing and another. What does it matter to me if the resurrection takes place two seconds before the transformation?
                              What counts as a significant length of time? You have the Rapture lasting the length of time it takes lightning to be seen BECAUSE you make the resurrection and the transformation as ONE event. However IF the resurrection is two seconds BEFORE the transformation THEN this means the WHOLE event is LONGER than the time for lightning to be seen, which THEN breaks YOUR connection with what Jesus said.
                              From what scripture shows us, the Rapture (Ascension) precedes the Transformation. Moreover the dead who are resurrected precede those who are living in the Ascension (Rapture). The Rapture (contrary to Pretrib (especially Left Behind advocates)) will be visible and does NOT involve people shedding their clothes or leaving them behind. However it is the Return of Jesus which is connected with Lightning, for it will be glorious and this ENTIRE event, of the dead rising, the living joining them, them ALL being transformed and meeting Jesus who is descending with the armies of heaven will be awesome!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
                                Why do we so easily over look the 4th set of judgments?
                                There are 7 Thunders between the 6th and 7th Trumpet.
                                They were sealed from being known, but not erased. The 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders make up what is left of the first 3.5 years. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming. God on the throne and the Lamb are here on earth for the final harvest. The Trumpets cover the separation of the sheep and goats. The Thunders cover the harvest of the wheat and tares. The nation of Israel and the Nations as one unit will be chosen by God and the Lamb to be stripped of Adam's flesh and blood and sent by the angels to the resurrection after the battle of Armageddon to start the Millennial Reign with Christ. These are God's judgments to purge sin out of the world.
                                Revelation does NOT say that what the 7 Thunders say is judgement. That is simply speculation on your part. We are told what ends the first half of the final 7 years, and that is with the ascension of the 2W and the great earthquake (which seems to be the event prophesied in Zech 14:
                                Zec 14:4-5 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

                                This ties into Rev 12 and the Woman fleeing and then being nourished for 1260 days in the wilderness.

                                The 7th Trumpet covers the last half during Satan's 42 months. Revelation 10:5-7
                                5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
                                6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
                                7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
                                The 7th Trumpet is not a single blast. It is a prolonged sound. It cannot end until sin is eradicated and the Covenant confirmed and completed.
                                Strange claim. Seems to be based off a misreading of these verses.
                                The 7th Trumpet like the other 6, is blown and it heralds the events that subsequently occur. It therefore does include everything afterwards, including the 7 Vials, but it ends when Jesus returns. There is no reason for it to be blown for the duration of 42 months, but rather it is blown to START the 42 months.

                                This can only happen when the 7th Trumpet covers what is promised. The 7th Trumpet is the one and only final Trumpet. The angel was created and designed for this very purpose.
                                If the 7th Trumpet does not cover Satan's 42 months, it means John's witness of Satan being allowed authority never happens. The last 42 months of the tribulation will never happen. There will be no battle of Armageddon. This should be enough evidence that Armageddon is not the Second Coming. The 7th Trumpet assures us the Second Coming has been completed. Not because it ends. It cannot even Sound until the work of the Second Coming is finished. The only need for Armageddon is because Satan is allowed an extension. Armageddon is not planned, but it is the end of God's longsuffering mercy. Many souls for 42 months will still reject Satan and choose to be beheaded.
                                The 7th Trumpet is blown at the START of the 42 months. It covers the 42 months, but it is NOT blown continually for 42 months. There is ANOTHER Trumpet which is NOT part of the 7, which is blown for calling God's people to Him, and this blown to END the 42 months BECAUSE Jesus IS HERE when it is blown!
                                The Key point is that when the 7th Trumpet is blown Jesus does NOT immediately COME at that first sounding of it.

                                Comment

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