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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    Yep, a total of 7 years.
    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Nope.
    Yep.

    It originally was that long but God decided to shorten it and we see that it is half of that amount, 3.5 years/or 42 months.
    You have zero proof of your claim. There is NOTHING that leads one to conclude that "God decided to shorten it". That's just your opinion. What scholars who have studied Revelation for years agrees with your opinion? Can you name any? And cite their work?

    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    Most people easily understand this to mean that if the Trib was LONGER than the 7 years, no one would survive.

    You've proved nothing.

    If it wasn't shortened there would be no elect to be raptured since all would have died
    Correct. iow, God allowed the Trib only 7 years; no more.

    so it was shortened in half and that ensures some will the ones "alive and remain" that Paul said are changed and raptured.
    You've got no evidence at all for your theory/opinion/conjecture/speculation/construct that God planned on 7 years, but decided to shorten it by half.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
      There is NOTHING that leads one to conclude that "God decided to shorten it". That's just your opinion.
      It's obviously not my opinion. Not sure why you would even say that given the scripture was already posted. This isn't debatable.


      Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
      Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

      Do you know what "shortened" means? If not, here is the Greek definition:



      G2856
      κολοβόω
      koloboō
      Thayer Definition:
      1) to mutilate
      2) in NT: to shorten, abridge, curtail
      Part of Speech: verb
      A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of the base of G2849
      Citing in TDNT: 3:823, 452

      James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Keraz View Post

        Wrong. Rev 6:17 does not say they are physically present at all.
        Just that the peoples know it is the Wrath of God has come upon them.

        You are making a bad mistake in thinking the Sixth Seal is the Return. Much must happen before that glorious event.
        Christ is here for the harvest. God and the Son are doing what is needed to be done. Humanity knows it because they can see both here to carry out the harvest. Matthew 21:40

        40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

        God on the throne is the Lord of the vineyard. The Lamb is the Son. Both come to earth. Jesus was not hinting at the fact, so men would tremble in fear.

        You have the 144k Jewish disciples. They go wherever the Lamb goes. They are inseparable. Revelation 14:4

        4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

        Firstfruits of the sheep and wheat from the harvest. They were sealed after the church is complete and in Paradise. They were sealed before the opening of the 7th Seal. Now during the Trumpets and Thunders they gather the harvest with God, the Lamb, and the angels.

        Then during the week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The week the Covenant is confirmed. All have been harvested. Adam’s 6000 year punishment has been complete and ratified as finished.

        It is only then that Satan is allowed access to the vineyard. It is only then Satan may get 42 months. That is the time of Satan's tribulation. Christ and the 144k leave for Paradise. Only the 2 witnesses are here on earth convincing humans to get their head cut off to prevent the mark of the beast and the worship of Satan.

        The mark or beheading are the only 2 choices given. No works, no faith, but only the rejection of worshipping Satan. Take the mark and your name is removed from the Lamb's book of life. Cut your head off and be resurrected to live in an incorruptible body in Revelation 20:4.

        That condition only happens during Satan's 42 months having control of the vineyard. The church is definitely not in charge after the 6th Seal. All flesh has to die after that point. The only humans who do not die are the sealed 144k Jewish disciples. They have to recieve incorruptible bodies when sealed, as they cannot be hurt nor killed themselves by the physical judgments being poured out on the earth.

        Of course there is no indication that Christ or the 144k are here on earth during Satan's control and Stewardship. There can only be one Steward in charge. All mankind's works are going to be burned up. It will literally be the survival of the fittest that Satan has lied about in modern science. Except those fit will recieve the mark and worship Satan. Then all will then be destroyed at Armageddon.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Timtofly View Post

          Christ is here for the harvest. God and the Son are doing what is needed to be done. Humanity knows it because they can see both here to carry out the harvest. Matthew 21:40

          40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

          God on the throne is the Lord of the vineyard. The Lamb is the Son. Both come to earth. Jesus was not hinting at the fact, so men would tremble in fear.

          You have the 144k Jewish disciples. They go wherever the Lamb goes. They are inseparable. Revelation 14:4

          4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

          Firstfruits of the sheep and wheat from the harvest. They were sealed after the church is complete and in Paradise. They were sealed before the opening of the 7th Seal. Now during the Trumpets and Thunders they gather the harvest with God, the Lamb, and the angels.

          Then during the week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The week the Covenant is confirmed. All have been harvested. Adam’s 6000 year punishment has been complete and ratified as finished.

          It is only then that Satan is allowed access to the vineyard. It is only then Satan may get 42 months. That is the time of Satan's tribulation. Christ and the 144k leave for Paradise. Only the 2 witnesses are here on earth convincing humans to get their head cut off to prevent the mark of the beast and the worship of Satan.

          The mark or beheading are the only 2 choices given. No works, no faith, but only the rejection of worshipping Satan. Take the mark and your name is removed from the Lamb's book of life. Cut your head off and be resurrected to live in an incorruptible body in Revelation 20:4.

          That condition only happens during Satan's 42 months having control of the vineyard. The church is definitely not in charge after the 6th Seal. All flesh has to die after that point. The only humans who do not die are the sealed 144k Jewish disciples. They have to recieve incorruptible bodies when sealed, as they cannot be hurt nor killed themselves by the physical judgments being poured out on the earth.

          Of course there is no indication that Christ or the 144k are here on earth during Satan's control and Stewardship. There can only be one Steward in charge. All mankind's works are going to be burned up. It will literally be the survival of the fittest that Satan has lied about in modern science. Except those fit will recieve the mark and worship Satan. Then all will then be destroyed at Armageddon.
          This theory of the end times is confused and does not conform to what the Bible prophets tell us.

          We have the full description of how, when and what happens at the Glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign in Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 24:29-31.

          You also make the error of thinking the 144,000 are all Jewish. Revelation 7:4-8 makes it clear that only 12, 000 are from the tribe of Judah.

          The faithful Christians, God's holy people; WILL be on earth when the 'beast' - the Anti-Christ, controls the world for 42 months. Revelation 13:7, Daniel 7:25

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
            There is NOTHING that leads one to conclude that "God decided to shorten it". That's just your opinion.
            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
            It's obviously not my opinion.
            Obviously it is.

            Not sure why you would even say that given the scripture was already posted.
            Which I pointed out only notes 3.5 year periods. You showed NOTHING that said God decided to shorten a 7 year period into 3.5 years. So you only have your opinon.

            This isn't debatable.
            Then why is almost EVERYTHING debated?

            Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
            Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
            Yes, I am VERY famidliar with Matt 24; all of it. And v.21-22 do NOT say that God decided to shorten His planned 7 year Trib by half because He finally realized that no one would survive.

            How ridiculous. Instead, God KNEW that continuing the Trib BEYOND 7 years would result in NO survivors.

            Do you know what "shortened" means? If not, here is the Greek definition:

            G2856
            κολοβόω
            koloboō
            Thayer Definition:
            1) to mutilate
            2) in NT: to shorten, abridge, curtail
            Part of Speech: verb
            A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of the base of G2849
            Citing in TDNT: 3:823, 452
            OK, I guess you don't believe that God is omniscient then. That's on you.

            btw, God never has a "plan B". He doesn't need one.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by randyk View Post
              We disagree on what the verse states.
              Really? How so?

              Well, I suppose it's important to recognize where Jesus connects with lightning in a biblical sense. For example, is there any place where Messianic prophecy connects to lightning? If not, how does OT prophecy utilize lightning as an image? I see lightning used as a symbol of divine judgment.
              2 Sam 22.15 He shot his arrows and scattered the enemy, with great bolts of lightning he routed them.
              If lightning is connected, as a symbol of judgment, with Christ's Return, then it has to do with the sudden destruction God has threatened to bring upon His enemies, at a time when they denied He would do so. The suddenness of lightning seems connected with the sense of God's sudden burst of anger against His enemies.
              Nope. what is important is to recognise what Jesus SAID in CONTEXT and not whether lightning is used anywhere else in the Bible. Otherwise you are going into eisegesis. Moreover your one verse does NOT have ANY connection with His return. as Jesus connects lightning with HImself and NOT with the weapon used to rout His enemies.
              In fact in revelation we are told it is with a SWORD from His mouth and NO lightning bolts.
              Also God has being pouring out His wrath prior to Jesus' return, so this is NOT about His judgement in this way.

              Your argument seems to be based on the sense that only the attribute of visibility is how Jesus is using "lightning," with respect to his Coming. I wouldn't at all deny that visibility is a big part of his use of "lightning." But I also think it has to do with the "suddenness" of his judgment. It doesn't have to be said, in connection with lightning, to know this!
              As this is the ONLY attribute Jesus is using the picture for so I am sticking with what Jesus said and NOT some GNOSTIC (hidden) meaning that you wish to imply is there.
              There is NO mention of judgement in His coming ESPECIALLY as when Jesus said this it was in relation to SALVATION, Him coming for US!

              Jesus spent a good amount of time, in this context of his Coming like lightning, explaining that he is coming to bring sudden and unexpected judgment upon his enemies. So the sense of "suddenness" and "unexpectedness" is there, along with the sense of "visibility."
              No Jesus spent ZERO amount of time in this CONTEXT of Matthew 24 speaking about judgement of His enemies. Instead He had spoken of tribulation (for His people) and of the gathering (of His people). Neither "suddenness" nor "unexpectedness" is in the passage. Rather this is spoken of in OTHER passages about what ELSE happens following His return. Eisegesis is ALWAYS a bad idea.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                There is NOTHING that leads one to conclude that "God decided to shorten it". That's just your opinion.

                Obviously it is.


                Which I pointed out only notes 3.5 year periods. You showed NOTHING that said God decided to shorten a 7 year period into 3.5 years. So you only have your opinon.


                Then why is almost EVERYTHING debated?


                Yes, I am VERY famidliar with Matt 24; all of it. And v.21-22 do NOT say that God decided to shorten His planned 7 year Trib by half because He finally realized that no one would survive.

                How ridiculous. Instead, God KNEW that continuing the Trib BEYOND 7 years would result in NO survivors.


                OK, I guess you don't believe that God is omniscient then. That's on you.

                btw, God never has a "plan B". He doesn't need one.
                There is no 7 year period in Revelation. You added that to the book. God's plan is to shorten this time of Jacob's trouble. Each day we live makes the tribulation shorter. If you can prove a time table in Revelation instead of just telling folks they are wrong it would be interesting to hear.

                The only 42 month segment happens after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. Revelation 11:14-15

                14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

                15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

                What is the third woe?

                There is no time frame for the 1st and 2nd woe. That is the time God shortened. The third woe is not even plan A. According to you, everything has already been burned up and dissolved by the 1st and 2nd woes. A and B have already happened. There is not even an AC or even FP because neither are in God's plans. If the 3rd woe is not Satan and his plan, then there is no 3rd woe at all. It is just the 7th Trumpet.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
                  There is no 7 year period in Revelation.
                  Your opinion.

                  You added that to the book.
                  Your opinion.

                  God's plan is to shorten this time of Jacob's trouble.
                  So, God came up with a plan, and THEN decided to shorten it. As if He didn't initially realize that no one would survive His initial plan? Oh really?

                  Each day we live makes the tribulation shorter.
                  Your opinion. Where in the world do you get your material?

                  If you can prove a time table in Revelation instead of just telling folks they are wrong it would be interesting to hear.
                  Revelation isn't the only eschetalogical book in the Bible. Daniel refers to the seventieth week in ch 9.

                  From Jamison, Faucet and Brown:
                  The Messianic time is the Sabbath of Israel's history, in which it had the offer of all God's mercies, but in which it was cut off for a time by its rejection of them. As the seventy weeks end with seven years, or a week, so they begin with seven times seven, that is, seven weeks. As the seventieth week is separated from the rest as a period of revelation, so it may be with the seven weeks. The number seven is associated with revelation; for the seven spirits of God are the mediators of all His revelations (Re 1:4; 3:1; 4:5)

                  You're free to do with it what you want.

                  The only 42 month segment happens after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. Revelation 11:14-15
                  If that's your calculation, there are STILL 7 seal and 6 trumpet judgments, all occuring DURING the Tribulation. So that would put them in the FIRST half of the 7 year Trib.

                  14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

                  15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

                  What is the third woe?
                  3rd woe is described in 12:15-19. It'sthe 7th trumpet.

                  There is no time frame for the 1st and 2nd woe. That is the time God shortened.
                  Again, just your opinion. Which DENIES God's omniscience.

                  The third woe is not even plan A. According to you, everything has already been burned up and dissolved by the 1st and 2nd woes.
                  Nope. Not according to me. I don't know where you are getting your fantasy material. I see the 3 sets of judgments as sequential, not all happening at once. So your opinion of what i believe isn't even close. Try again.

                  A and B have already happened.
                  A and B what? Are you talking about plans, like humans make? You know, like making a plan, but having a backup plan (B)? Well, God isn't like you or me. He is omniscient, so His plans don't need a backup plan, in case His original plan doesn't work out. In fact, such thinking in regard to God is sheer blasphemy.

                  There is not even an AC or even FP because neither are in God's plans.
                  OK, so there is no "air conditioning" or "fireplaces" because they asren't in God's plans??? What ever are you talking about?

                  If the 3rd woe is not Satan and his plan, then there is no 3rd woe at all. It is just the 7th Trumpet.
                  What do you mean by "if the 3rd woe is not Satan/his plan, then there is no 3erd woe". That doesn't make sense. It is the 7th trumpet, not Satan/his plan.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                    Nope. what is important is to recognise what Jesus SAID in CONTEXT and not whether lightning is used anywhere else in the Bible. Otherwise you are going into eisegesis. Moreover your one verse does NOT have ANY connection with His return. as Jesus connects lightning with HImself and NOT with the weapon used to rout His enemies.
                    In fact in revelation we are told it is with a SWORD from His mouth and NO lightning bolts.
                    Also God has being pouring out His wrath prior to Jesus' return, so this is NOT about His judgement in this way.
                    I preferred to find a passage connecting Messiah with lightning, but found it sufficient to relate lightning in the Bible with divine judgment, which is how Messiah is portrayed as coming. There are a number of passages that indicate lightning is used as a symbol of judgment. But the context of Christ's Coming itself suggests that sudden judgment is the aim of the use of lightning as an image, and not just an "appearance."

                    I've said about all I can say on this, and find your disagreement to lack good reason. To say that lightning is not generally used in the Bible as an appearance of judgment is not only wrong--it's illogical. The image of Zeus holding a lightning bolt in his hand naturally speaks of divine judgment.

                    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                    As this is the ONLY attribute Jesus is using the picture for so I am sticking with what Jesus said and NOT some GNOSTIC (hidden) meaning that you wish to imply is there.
                    There is NO mention of judgement in His coming ESPECIALLY as when Jesus said this it was in relation to SALVATION, Him coming for US!
                    Jesus referred to salvation by judging his enemies. That is the suggestion. In the OT Prophets, Israel's final deliverance is pictured as the destruction of Israel's enemies.

                    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                    No Jesus spent ZERO amount of time in this CONTEXT of Matthew 24 speaking about judgement of His enemies. Instead He had spoken of tribulation (for His people) and of the gathering (of His people). Neither "suddenness" nor "unexpectedness" is in the passage. Rather this is spoken of in OTHER passages about what ELSE happens following His return. Eisegesis is ALWAYS a bad idea.
                    Israel's own judgment comes to an end when the characters being used to bring that judgment are themselves judged.

                    Isa 33.1 Woe to you, destroyer, you who have not been destroyed! Woe to you, betrayer, you who have not been betrayed! When you stop destroying, you will be destroyed; when you stop betraying, you will be betrayed.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                      I preferred to find a passage connecting Messiah with lightning, but found it sufficient to relate lightning in the Bible with divine judgment, which is how Messiah is portrayed as coming. There are a number of passages that indicate lightning is used as a symbol of judgment. But the context of Christ's Coming itself suggests that sudden judgment is the aim of the use of lightning as an image, and not just an "appearance."
                      As there is NO such passage it highlights the error in your view.
                      Christ's coming for His own is NOT about judgement though there is judgement occurring after His coming.

                      I've said about all I can say on this, and find your disagreement to lack good reason. To say that lightning is not generally used in the Bible as an appearance of judgment is not only wrong--it's illogical. The image of Zeus holding a lightning bolt in his hand naturally speaks of divine judgment.
                      Do we follow Greek myths?
                      Moreover I did not say lightning cannot be used as a statement about judgement, but Jesus spoke of His Second Coming in Matthew with NO reference to judgement when He said it would be SEEN like lightning.
                      You take passages about judgement and INSERT them into passages about Salvation.
                      This leads to FALSE teaching and much eisegesis.

                      Jesus referred to salvation by judging his enemies. That is the suggestion. In the OT Prophets, Israel's final deliverance is pictured as the destruction of Israel's enemies.
                      Nope. Salvation and judgement are ALWAYS TWO separate topics, though related.
                      Israel is saved or Israel is judged. People are saved or people are judged.
                      Take the example of Noah.
                      People are saved and THEN people are judged.
                      Take the example of Lot.
                      People are saved and then people are judged.

                      One event follows AFTER the other BUT they are NOT the SAME event.
                      Jesus spoke in Matt 24:27, 30 & 31 about Tribulation FOLLOWED BY Salvation (which is the reference to lightning) and NO mention in that passage of judgement of those who were causing that Great Tribulation.
                      We should NEVER add to one passage a MEANING given about another thing, but simply note the relationship. You seem UNABLE to do this. This is why we disagree, because you ADD to His Words, other Words of His which are about something other.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                        As there is NO such passage it highlights the error in your view.
                        Christ's coming for His own is NOT about judgement though there is judgement occurring after His coming.
                        That's false. On the *day* Christ comes back judgment will take place for the wicked.

                        2 Thes 1.5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

                        Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                        Moreover I did not say lightning cannot be used as a statement about judgement, but Jesus spoke of His Second Coming in Matthew with NO reference to judgement when He said it would be SEEN like lightning.
                        Lightning does refer to judgment at Christ's 2nd Coming. That's just how Jesus is using the symbol.

                        Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

                        The context is the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Army. Jesus is warning his disciples to flee when they see the sign that this is about to take place. Unbelieving Jews will be looking for false Messiahs to deliver them from the Romans. But the Romans, like vultures, will surround them. And they will be judged in a sudden turn against them, as quickly as lightning strikes.

                        This is the nature of Christ's Coming, both in history, in 70 AD, and also eschatologically, at the end of the age. Unbelievers think they will escape trouble, but the trouble is coming suddenly for them. It speaks of judgment, and lightning speaks of sudden judgment. I know you reject this interpretation, but it is my version, like it or not. And I think the text speaks for itself.

                        Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                        You take passages about judgement and INSERT them into passages about Salvation.
                        This leads to FALSE teaching and much eisegesis.
                        Both take place at the same time. When God delivers His people from the wicked, the wicked get judged.

                        Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                        Nope. Salvation and judgement are ALWAYS TWO separate topics, though related.
                        Not true, as I showed you with 2 Thes 1.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          That's false. On the *day* Christ comes back judgment will take place for the wicked.
                          2 Thes 1.5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
                          Not FALSE at all.
                          You CONTINUE to confuse what Jesus is doing with US and what Jesus does with the world.
                          ON the one hand He is coming to save us, but on the other He will (AFTER SAVING US) bring destruction on the wicked.
                          IOW there is a CLEAR and EXPLICIT chronology.
                          Though it happens ON the Day when He comes, there is an ORDER which is stated REPEATEDLY and confirmed by EVERY passage which speaks of His coming.
                          The order is:
                          1) He departs heaven
                          2) The dead rise
                          3) The living rise
                          4) The dead and living meet Him in the clouds
                          5) He then metes out judgement on the wicked

                          You mix what happens in 1 - 4 with what happens in 5. This is why you make erroneous connections.

                          Lightning does refer to judgment at Christ's 2nd Coming. That's just how Jesus is using the symbol.
                          Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
                          The context is the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Army. Jesus is warning his disciples to flee when they see the sign that this is about to take place. Unbelieving Jews will be looking for false Messiahs to deliver them from the Romans. But the Romans, like vultures, will surround them. And they will be judged in a sudden turn against them, as quickly as lightning strikes.
                          Absolute RUBBISH.
                          This is pure Preteristic nonsense.
                          Was Jesus VISIBLY SEEN in 70 AD?
                          Note the CONTEXT for Jesus said - do NOT believe IF people say I am here or I am there, because EVERYONE will see me when I COME! I will be seen just as LIGHTNING is SEEN.
                          This is NOT about 70 AD for Jesus did NOT come in 70 AD.
                          You claim this because you have NO idea how to interpret the Olivet Discourse according to what is stated WITHIN the OD. This has been demonstrated ad nauseam to you, but you continue to claim errant ideas, such as an army which does NOT enter a city and is destroyed is somehow an army which has entered the center of the city. A three year old can understand how stupid a claim this is.
                          There is little point discussing this further.

                          Both take place at the same time. When God delivers His people from the wicked, the wicked get judged.
                          No they don't. First we are saved THEN the wicked are judged.
                          This was true with Noah and Lot and true in the future too!

                          Not true, as I showed you with 2 Thes 1.
                          Actually 2 Thess 1 shows my point, for SALVATION is one topic and JUDGEMENT another, though one comes to those who don't receive the other.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            Not FALSE at all.
                            You CONTINUE to confuse what Jesus is doing with US and what Jesus does with the world.
                            ON the one hand He is coming to save us, but on the other He will (AFTER SAVING US) bring destruction on the wicked.
                            IOW there is a CLEAR and EXPLICIT chronology.
                            Though it happens ON the Day when He comes, there is an ORDER which is stated REPEATEDLY and confirmed by EVERY passage which speaks of His coming.
                            The order is:
                            1) He departs heaven
                            2) The dead rise
                            3) The living rise
                            4) The dead and living meet Him in the clouds
                            5) He then metes out judgement on the wicked

                            You mix what happens in 1 - 4 with what happens in 5. This is why you make erroneous connections.
                            Erroneous? The only thing "erroneous" is your continued rationalization of your failure to admit that judgment takes place when Christ returns like lightning. I have no more interest in debating this with you. I have no need to convince you. My goal is and always has been to convince those who may be reading. And my arguments are already given. No need to continue.

                            Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            Was Jesus VISIBLY SEEN in 70 AD?
                            No, Jesus was not seen, nor was Jesus' coming in judgment in 70 AD the fulfillment of his eschatological Coming. His coming at that time is as God comes in any time in history in which He judges the world, whether it is 70 AD, the Black Death, WW2, or Armageddon. Jesus "came" to judge the Nicolaitans in Rev 2.16. He did not come *to be seen* at that time except in the sense men saw his judgment.

                            When Jesus spoke of his Coming in the Olivet Discourse, he did not deny his eschatological Coming, both to save his People and to judge their enemies. Rather, he diverted to the more essential act in the moment, to live in righteousness today, because God is judging us every day, and judgment can take place on any day. That is precisely what happened to the Jews in 70 AD.

                            Again, I'm not going to convince you. You rarely accept input from others. This is for others who are interested in the subject.

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                            • Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              Erroneous? The only thing "erroneous" is your continued rationalization of your failure to admit that judgment takes place when Christ returns like lightning. I have no more interest in debating this with you. I have no need to convince you. My goal is and always has been to convince those who may be reading. And my arguments are already given. No need to continue.
                              I have NOT once said that judgement does NOT take place AFTER Jesus returns.
                              However what is erroneous is YOUR continued insistence that this passage in Matt 24 is about judgement!
                              As you say we have discussed enough.

                              No, Jesus was not seen, nor was Jesus' coming in judgment in 70 AD the fulfillment of his eschatological Coming. His coming at that time is as God comes in any time in history in which He judges the world, whether it is 70 AD, the Black Death, WW2, or Armageddon. Jesus "came" to judge the Nicolaitans in Rev 2.16. He did not come *to be seen* at that time except in the sense men saw his judgment.
                              Was the Black Death God coming in judgement? Did God come in 587 BC? Nope.
                              Just because God has His judgement come to a place does NOT require His presence. After all He is OMNIPRESENT, so for Him to be present means in a SPECIAL and unusual way.
                              Jesus did NOT come to judge the Nicolaitans in Rev 2:16. He warned them that He might. However we have no record passed down of Him doing so.
                              Another way we might say God has come is when there is a move of the Holy Spirit, such as struck Ananias and Sapphira down.
                              However there is no record of this occurring in 70 AD either.

                              When Jesus spoke of his Coming in the Olivet Discourse, he did not deny his eschatological Coming, both to save his People and to judge their enemies. Rather, he diverted to the more essential act in the moment, to live in righteousness today, because God is judging us every day, and judgment can take place on any day. That is precisely what happened to the Jews in 70 AD.
                              When Jesus spoke of His coming in this passage He spoke SPECIFICALLY and UNDENIABLY about His Second Coming, and highlighted there would be NOTHING hidden or UNSEEN about that Coming. However you claim a HIDDEN and UNSEEN coming which is entirely CONTRARY to the point He was making. You are saying He is there, or He is here, but He said YOU WILL SEE just as lightning IS SEEN!
                              Are you really being judged everyday? Perhaps a topic for Bible Chat and not here.

                              Again, I'm not going to convince you. You rarely accept input from others. This is for others who are interested in the subject.
                              You WILL convince me when you put arguments based on what is written. Others have helped me understand things like when the NHNE happens and when the NJ comes etc. Others have convinced me that scripture points to us living on earth. None of which I held as views before joining this forum.

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                              • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                                Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                                Uh, huh. Like henry Morris, for one. There is no reason to ask snarky irrelevant questions.

                                Then I guess you won't read any English Bible then, since all of them were translated by mere men.
                                No, all you did was provide verses that mentions 3.5 years. Anyone can do that.

                                What you seem to not want to believe is that the 7 year Tribulation is divided evenly by 3.5 years. So all you did was quote verses that spoke of either half of the Trib. They don't all refer to the same period.

                                So you're not really interested in Daniel's 70th week, huh. Well, you sure do like saying that. What have you contributed? Well now, this is a nice example of a snarky comment. Well then, why do you even bother responding? Yep, you're just full of snakiness, aren't you.
                                I have no interest in continuing with this because you have nothing to offer.

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