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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
    It's really simple.

    1These 4:14,16:

    14- If we believe that Jesus died and rose again....
    16-... the dead in Christ shall rise first.



    Be blessed
    The PuP
    The saints rise only at the Second Coming. Scripture also calls it the "First Resurrection". Blessings are also pronounced on those who share in the first resurrection. The first resurrection also involves the resurrection of saints from the tombs from Adam until the Second Coming. You can only partake of the first resurrection or the second resurrection. If anyone does not rise with the first resurrection, he is lost, because he rises with the wicked pm to be judged. Those who rise at the first resurrection are not judged, but rewarded.

    Rev 20: 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev 20: 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    To God be the Glory

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
      Just to get things back on track, here are the three verses that collectively says that our enduring substance is our reward in heaven that will be given to us at the coming of Jesus with the saints going to the Father.

      1Th 3:13 KJV To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
      Heb 10:34 KJV For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
      1Pe 1:4 KJV To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
      None of these say our reward is in heaven - though it is being prepared in heaven. And I agree they are given AT His coming.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
        I was asking you to be courteous and address the "explicitness" of 1Thess4. I was not being fecitious in asking you to address what you say is explicit and already addressed. You are either being discourteous or avoiding the issue, I will not ask again.
        As I explained what I meant by EXPLICIT and also IMPLICIT, so I have no understanding of what you do not follow.

        So, let me redirect things to illustrate why what you say is explicit to you, is not explicit to me. You said
        "I have NEVER said Jesus comes AT the 7th Trumpet. What I have said is that He is revealed at the 7th Trumpet."
        You said he "is revealed" at that time, and it is not the 2nd advent. Let me rephrase my earlier question. Your use of "reveled" is ambiguous to your views. You believe, and have stated that the resurrection takes place at the 2nd advent. I provided 1 John 3:2 and several verses from 1Peter1 (and I will give you one more, shortly) that gives the timing of when our resurrection takes place.
        No the use of revealed is NOT ambiguous to my view. It is very simple and clear. A revealing is NOT the same as His coming. This is an unambiguous statement.

        2Th 1:5-10 KJV 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall BE REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
        Our "rest with us" is referring to our eternal redemption, at the resurrection. It takes place at Jesus's revealing. 1 John 3:2 says that we will be like him when he "appears". 1Peter1: 7,13 says that it is "at the appearing of Jesus" and "at the revelation of Jesus Christ". So here we have our resurrection taking place at the appearing and revelation of Jesus. Yet you say that Jesus is revealed at the 7th Trumpet, but that this isn't the Rapture/ resurrection of 1Thess4 or 1Cor 15. Which revelation of Jesus is it? We have a very ambiguous use of the word revelation/ revealed between your use of revealed and the apostles use of revealed. And you say that you are not using linguistic dyslexia? And that the scriptures are explicitly clear? Gimme a break. Either explain the "explicitness" of 1Thess4 or let's put this conversation on its deathbed.
        Here is where we are at odds, because is revealing is NOT His appearing. This is your claim and assumption but NOT one supported by the use of the phrase as found in Luke 17:31.
        What happens at the revelation of Jesus in 1 Peter 1? It states there will be praise and glory to God at that time. What do we read happens AT that time?
        Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
        Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.
        Rev 11:13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

        This great earthquake is the same event as noted in Zech 14:
        Zec 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
        Zec 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

        My usage is supported therefore by Luke 17:31 and Rev 11 and Zech 14.
        IOW just as there are multiple DotLs there are also more than one Revelation of Jesus.
        In fact this revealing is the revealing to the Jews.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
          Just to get things back on track, here are the three verses that collectively says that our enduring substance is our reward in heaven that will be given to us at the coming of Jesus with the saints going to the Father.
          Speaking of getting things "back on track", please read the title of this thread and address just that. You've taken this thread quite a bit off track already.

          Comment


          • #35
            "Here you make NO sense. For Christ does NOT come to the Father with the saints, but it is the REVERSE, for the Father brings the saints with Him to Jesus:
            1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
            Those who sleep are brought by the Father to Jesus and so we have a DIRECT connection of a resurrection from the dead and the CHANGING of the dead to immortality."

            These are the only comments I can find of your "explicit" understanding of 1Thess4. This all stems from your linguistic dyslexia when it comes to the phrase "Jesus died and rose again" This rising again is the anistemi, not the egeiro. Paul then further states, the dead in Christ shall rise first. Again the word anistemi is used... rising upward. You have the "saints who have fallen asleep" descending downward with Jesus from the Father. Do you see your contradiction here? The saints are rising "WITH HIM". If you were to view the "dead in Christ", to already be in heaven, these is only one direction that the "dead in Christ", can go, and it ain't upward/ anistemi.

            Let me briefly rehash the anistemi. When the women encountered the angels that were outside & inside the tomb, they both said that Jesus was already egeiro. Later when Mary Magdalene met the "risen" Jesus, he said, "I have not yet ascended to the Father". Correlate this with what Jesus said in John 16:16, we find that the "little while and ye shall not see me... because I go to the Father " corresponds to later that very day. That day, the same third day, Jesus ascended to the Father and then appeared to the disciples in Jerusalem. This makes the understanding/ definition of anistemi, mutually exclusive to that of egeiro. This is the basis of your dyslexia. He was already risen/ egeiro. And the anistemi refers only to the rising/ directionally upward movement, the ascension of Jesus to the Father.

            So when Paul says that "the dead in Christ shall rise first" hinges on, "if we believe that Jesus died and rose again", in both instances he is referring to the upward ascension of the saints.... WITH HIM. Paul is addressing the mistaken notion that the dead in Christ will not be excluded in the initiating event of 1Thess4...his descent FROM heaven. To be included, they would have to be included in His descent. But Paul is talking about the upward ascent of the saints. Think about this some more. Who is coming "WITH HIM"? None other than those who are DEAD in Christ... before they are resurrected (you and others have already denied that our reward is IN HEAVEN). SO, if they are not given their resurrected bodies in heaven , then the "dead in Christ" that God brings with him can only be a descent from heaven and not a rising/ anistemi. The dead in Christ are ascending WITH CHRIST, and not descending. Thus you can only interpret anistemi, as the resurrection, and not as the ascent. Your dyslexia has you blinded to the rest of your errant beliefs, [1Peter1 is not about the "grace that is to be brought unto you at the apokalupsis/revelation of Jesus? Absurd!] I therfore see no further need to discuss this with you.

            Be Blessed

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
              The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
              None do the purpose of the rapture is to protect the church from the destruction of the earth as we are raptured moments before God destroys the world with fire then comes the judgement day. Paul teaches we will meet Jesus in the air and come back with Him. It will be Just like on Palm Sunday the people went out to meet Jesus and came back to the city with Him

              1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
              13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

              Comment


              • #37
                That is what I did in getting things back on track with the verses about our heavenly destination.

                The dead in Christ rise with him in a heavenly accent. The anistemi is about the upward rising of the saints WITH HIM, and not the egeiro, the physical rising from the dead at his appearing, the parousia. If you are firstly rising with, you did not previously descend with him when Christ "shall descend from heaven with a shout ". Our enduring substance, our eternal reward is IN HEAVEN. We are given rest from our labors and toils when Christ "comes with the saints...[going] before God, even our Father ".

                We are given that eternal, undefiled hope , that incorruptible inheritance that does not fade away and is reserved for us in heaven. It is that last time, end of your faith, salvation of the soul, grace and glory, that the prophets spoke of that should come at the revelation and appearing of Jesus Christ.

                Be Blessed
                The PuP

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                  That is what I did in getting things back on track with the verses about our heavenly destination.

                  The dead in Christ rise with him in a heavenly accent. The anistemi is about the upward rising of the saints WITH HIM, and not the egeiro, the physical rising from the dead at his appearing, the parousia. If you are firstly rising with, you did not previously descend with him when Christ "shall descend from heaven with a shout ". Our enduring substance, our eternal reward is IN HEAVEN. We are given rest from our labors and toils when Christ "comes with the saints...[going] before God, even our Father ".

                  We are given that eternal, undefiled hope , that incorruptible inheritance that does not fade away and is reserved for us in heaven. It is that last time, end of your faith, salvation of the soul, grace and glory, that the prophets spoke of that should come at the revelation and appearing of Jesus Christ.

                  Be Blessed
                  The PuP
                  The whole 'rapture; theory is pretentious nonsense. Humans never go to live in heaven; Jesus said so; John 3:13 He even prayed the the Father to NOT do that; John 17:15
                  To think you will be taken off this earth to the Spiritual realm where God resides, before any Judgment, is complete fiction and cannot happen.

                  We are earth people and we never leave it. Eventually God will come here to live with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

                  When Jesus does Return, after the testing times. as described from Rev 6:12 to Rev 19:10, He will gather those who kept their faith and trust in Him, to where He is, in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31
                  He will bring the souls of the martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation and raise them back to life. ALL the rest of the dead await the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:4-5

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Keraz View Post

                    The whole 'rapture; theory is pretentious nonsense. Humans never go to live in heaven; Jesus said so; John 3:13 He even prayed the the Father to NOT do that; John 17:15
                    To think you will be taken off this earth to the Spiritual realm where God resides, before any Judgment, is complete fiction and cannot happen.

                    We are earth people and we never leave it. Eventually God will come here to live with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

                    When Jesus does Return, after the testing times. as described from Rev 6:12 to Rev 19:10, He will gather those who kept their faith and trust in Him, to where He is, in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31
                    He will bring the souls of the martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation and raise them back to life. ALL the rest of the dead await the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:4-5
                    Your opening statement is patently false because it is nullified by the work of Christ. You are referring to:

                    Joh 3:13 KJV And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

                    But now that Christ has ascended to heaven, as a man, we have this:

                    Eph 2:14-18 KJV 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished IN HIS FLESH, the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have ACCESS by one Spirit UNTO the FATHER.

                    What is the middle wall? It is the keeping of the commandments contained in ordinances. We were previously unable to ascend to and approach the Father because of what Christ did. He kept the law to the fullest extent.

                    Rom 8:11 KJV But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

                    Rom 8:19-23 KJV 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

                    As part of the whole creation that still groans within ourselves, with the curse of sin and death, We too will ascend to the Father, because we "shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption", in a body that will know no sin.

                    Be Blessed
                    The PuP

                    P.s. If we believe that Christ ascended to heaven on resurrection day, Even so, them, which sleep in Jesus, will God bring with him, even the dead in Christ shall rise and ascend with him to be with the Lord. It is thru Christ that we now have access to the Father.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by marty fox View Post

                      None do the purpose of the rapture is to protect the church from the destruction of the earth as we are raptured moments before God destroys the world with fire then comes the judgement day.
                      The Bible begs to differ. Rev 20 begins with the first resurrection when Christ returns to earth after the Tribulation. Satan is bound for 1,000 years while Christ reigns during the Millennium. At the end of the Millennium, Satan is released for a little while, where he again deceives the nations, and Jesus Christ destroys the enemies at the battle of Gog and Magog.

                      1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
                      2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
                      3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
                      4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                      5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.

                      Paul teaches we will meet Jesus in the air and come back with Him.
                      First, what do you mean by "come back with Him"? And just where does anyone "come back" to? Please provide Scripture. Thanks.

                      1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
                      13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
                      There is nothing in this passage (or any other Scripture) that says that Jesus takes the resurrected saints back to heaven, yet that's the view of the majority of evangelicals.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                        The Bible begs to differ. Rev 20 begins with the first resurrection when Christ returns to earth after the Tribulation. Satan is bound for 1,000 years while Christ reigns during the Millennium. At the end of the Millennium, Satan is released for a little while, where he again deceives the nations, and Jesus Christ destroys the enemies at the battle of Gog and Magog.

                        1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
                        2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
                        3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
                        4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                        5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.


                        First, what do you mean by "come back with Him"? And just where does anyone "come back" to? Please provide Scripture. Thanks.


                        There is nothing in this passage (or any other Scripture) that says that Jesus takes the resurrected saints back to heaven, yet that's the view of the majority of evangelicals.
                        So where does revelation chapter 20 show Jesus reigning on the earth or any saints reigning with Jesus on the earth?

                        I did provide the scripture 1 Thessalonians 4:14 Jesus brings the dead in Christ back with Him at His coming.

                        I agree with you there is no verse saying that Jesus takes the resurrected saints back to heaven with Him.

                        Jesus comes raises the dead in Christ
                        then raptures the alive saints we meet Him in the air
                        then He destroys the world with fire
                        earth and heaven disappear as the new heaven and earth appears
                        then the great white throne judgement
                        then we will dwell with Him forever in the new heaven and new earth

                        Remember Paul teaches us in 1 Corinthians 15 that our body changes at the rapture so that we can enter heaven

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                          That is what I did in getting things back on track with the verses about our heavenly destination.

                          The dead in Christ rise with him in a heavenly accent. The anistemi is about the upward rising of the saints WITH HIM, and not the egeiro, the physical rising from the dead at his appearing, the parousia. If you are firstly rising with, you did not previously descend with him when Christ "shall descend from heaven with a shout ". Our enduring substance, our eternal reward is IN HEAVEN. We are given rest from our labors and toils when Christ "comes with the saints...[going] before God, even our Father ".
                          We are given that eternal, undefiled hope , that incorruptible inheritance that does not fade away and is reserved for us in heaven. It is that last time, end of your faith, salvation of the soul, grace and glory, that the prophets spoke of that should come at the revelation and appearing of Jesus Christ.
                          The heavenly accent is TO THE CLOUDS!
                          Anistemi is NOT about a PHYSICAL destination, but a being raised WITH Him. This is speaking of a CHANGE which is SPIRITUAL, which is coupled with the idea of the PHYSICAL egeiro.
                          Not a SINGLE passage says our destination is Heaven.
                          Our eternal reward IS presently in Heaven. You have that much correct. However it does NOT remain in Heaven, for Jesus BRINGS His reward WITH Him when He comes. We are NOT given a rest from ALL labours and toils, but rather a rest from our PRESENT labours and toils. Jesus is working right NOW. The Father is working right NOW. We will be working WITH Him.
                          When Christ comes, the Father will bring the saints to Him in the CLOUDS.
                          You confuse the PRESENT with the FUTURE. The FUTURE undeniable places Jesus ON earth and our eternal reward is WITH Him. So when He is in heaven IT is in heaven. When He is on earth IT is on earth.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                            "Here you make NO sense. For Christ does NOT come to the Father with the saints, but it is the REVERSE, for the Father brings the saints with Him to Jesus:
                            1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
                            Those who sleep are brought by the Father to Jesus and so we have a DIRECT connection of a resurrection from the dead and the CHANGING of the dead to immortality."

                            These are the only comments I can find of your "explicit" understanding of 1Thess4. This all stems from your linguistic dyslexia when it comes to the phrase "Jesus died and rose again" This rising again is the anistemi, not the egeiro. Paul then further states, the dead in Christ shall rise first. Again the word anistemi is used... rising upward. You have the "saints who have fallen asleep" descending downward with Jesus from the Father. Do you see your contradiction here? The saints are rising "WITH HIM". If you were to view the "dead in Christ", to already be in heaven, these is only one direction that the "dead in Christ", can go, and it ain't upward/ anistemi.
                            There is NO linguistic dyslexia on my part. However how you expressed yourself was that you did NOT understand what was EXPLICIT and what was IMPLICIT.
                            However if your point is about two Greek words, then you are arguing that egeiro speaks of a PHYSICAL being raised and anistemi about a lifting off the ground. However CONTEXTUALLY you are COMPLETELY wrong.
                            In 1 Thes 4 the CONTRAST is made between DEATH and RISING. Therefore IN this passage the usage speaks of COMING to LIFE and NOT about ascension to heaven.
                            Here is the SAME word "anistemi" used in Matthew:
                            Mat 9:9 As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth, and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he rose and followed him.
                            Did Matthew come to LIFE? Nope. Did Matthew ascend into heaven? Nope. The word was being used to simply mean RISE.
                            This is what anistemi means.
                            You RISE from the grave - this is anistemi:
                            Mar 5:42 And immediately the girl got up and began walking (for she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.

                            SAME word - again with NO connection with ascension or any other claim you are making in regards to this word. The Gospel writers used anistemi to mean to RISE, just as we do, BOTH for its normal meaning of getting up, and its unusual meaning of getting up after dying.

                            And here we have Jesus BEFORE He ascended to the Father:
                            Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.
                            Again anistemi is used. Therefore the CONNECTION and forced interpretation you are trying to bring is NOT found IN the Greek word.

                            Moreover we do NOT have the saints who were dead descending with Jesus BEFORE they are first RAISED UPWARDS to Jesus by the Father.
                            1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
                            Here clearly they are anitemi FIRST, so your claim that the dead do NOT rise first is COMPLETELY wrong and contrary to scripture.

                            Let me briefly rehash the anistemi. When the women encountered the angels that were outside & inside the tomb, they both said that Jesus was already egeiro. Later when Mary Magdalene met the "risen" Jesus, he said, "I have not yet ascended to the Father". Correlate this with what Jesus said in John 16:16, we find that the "little while and ye shall not see me... because I go to the Father " corresponds to later that very day. That day, the same third day, Jesus ascended to the Father and then appeared to the disciples in Jerusalem. This makes the understanding/ definition of anistemi, mutually exclusive to that of egeiro. This is the basis of your dyslexia. He was already risen/ egeiro. And the anistemi refers only to the rising/ directionally upward movement, the ascension of Jesus to the Father.
                            It is the basis of YOUR dyslexia, because when Mary met the "risen" Jesus the word used of Him BEFORE He went to the Father was anistemi (as provided above).
                            Mat 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.”
                            Here the word used is egeiro, and it is connected with coming out of sleep or being roused.
                            This word therefore is used when speaking of the dead being asleep and then being woken and rising.
                            Mat 8:25 And they went and woke him, saying, “Save us, Lord; we are perishing.”
                            Another example where it is about being awoken and so getting up.
                            IOW anistemi speaks of a change in the motion of rising whilst egeiro speaks of a change in status in coming awake or alive and so then going into motion.

                            So when Paul says that "the dead in Christ shall rise first" hinges on, "if we believe that Jesus died and rose again", in both instances he is referring to the upward ascension of the saints.... WITH HIM. Paul is addressing the mistaken notion that the dead in Christ will not be excluded in the initiating event of 1Thess4...his descent FROM heaven. To be included, they would have to be included in His descent. But Paul is talking about the upward ascent of the saints. Think about this some more. Who is coming "WITH HIM"? None other than those who are DEAD in Christ... before they are resurrected (you and others have already denied that our reward is IN HEAVEN). SO, if they are not given their resurrected bodies in heaven , then the "dead in Christ" that God brings with him can only be a descent from heaven and not a rising/ anistemi. The dead in Christ are ascending WITH CHRIST, and not descending. Thus you can only interpret anistemi, as the resurrection, and not as the ascent. Your dyslexia has you blinded to the rest of your errant beliefs, [1Peter1 is not about the "grace that is to be brought unto you at the apokalupsis/revelation of Jesus? Absurd!] I therfore see no further need to discuss this with you.
                            Nope it does NOT hinge on an upward acension of the saints EXCEPT that of moving from death to life.
                            The dead are NOT involved in Jesus' DESCENT, but ARE involved in an ASCENT, and this occurs BEFORE the ASCENT of those who are not dead.
                            The dead come with the Father as 1 Thes 4 states. You try to change it to fit your doctrine rather than letting your doctrine be shaped by what it says.
                            The Father brings the dead from the graves.
                            The entire passage has a DESCENT (which is Jesus) and an ASCENT (which is the saints dead and living).
                            As for 1 Peter, that is perhaps for another thread as you refuse to accept what is stated in scripture in Luke 17:31 and so make things contrary, which you had said you would not do.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by marty fox View Post

                              So where does revelation chapter 20 show Jesus reigning on the earth or any saints reigning with Jesus on the earth?
                              The first 5 verses mentions 1,000 years several times. Those many years are a Millennium. When Jesus reigns on earth.

                              1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
                              2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
                              3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
                              4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                              5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.

                              I did provide the scripture 1 Thessalonians 4:14 Jesus brings the dead in Christ back with Him at His coming.
                              Yes, Jesus empties heaven of all believers when He returns to earth to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

                              [QUIOTE]I agree with you there is no verse saying that Jesus takes the resurrected saints back to heaven with Him.[/QUOTE]
                              Correct.

                              Jesus comes raises the dead in Christ
                              This is called the "first resurrection" in Rev 20:5.

                              then raptures the alive saints we meet Him in the air
                              Which are given their resurrection bodies.

                              then He destroys the world with fire
                              No. Rev 21:1 is AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev 20:11-15. The original earth is destroyed AFTER the Millennial Reign.

                              earth and heaven disappear as the new heaven and earth appears
                              After the Millennial Reign of Christ.

                              then the great white throne judgement
                              Only if one switches Rev 20 with Rev 21. The GWTJ occurs BEFORE the new earth appears.

                              then we will dwell with Him forever in the new heaven and new earth
                              Correct.

                              Remember Paul teaches us in 1 Corinthians 15 that our body changes at the rapture so that we can enter heaven
                              Nope. When the living believers are given their resurrection bodies, which is when Jesus returns at the 2nd Advent, they will reign with Christ for the Millennium on earth. These believers will NEVER see heaven.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                                The first 5 verses mentions 1,000 years several times. Those many years are a Millennium. When Jesus reigns on earth.

                                1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
                                2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
                                3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
                                4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                                5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.


                                Yes, Jesus empties heaven of all believers when He returns to earth to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

                                [QUIOTE]I agree with you there is no verse saying that Jesus takes the resurrected saints back to heaven with Him.
                                Correct.


                                This is called the "first resurrection" in Rev 20:5.


                                Which are given their resurrection bodies.


                                No. Rev 21:1 is AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev 20:11-15. The original earth is destroyed AFTER the Millennial Reign.


                                After the Millennial Reign of Christ.


                                Only if one switches Rev 20 with Rev 21. The GWTJ occurs BEFORE the new earth appears.


                                Correct.


                                Nope. When the living believers are given their resurrection bodies, which is when Jesus returns at the 2nd Advent, they will reign with Christ for the Millennium on earth. These believers will NEVER see heaven.

                                [/QUOTE]

                                Yes the first 5 verses do mention the thousand years but what I’m showing you is that they don’t mention Jesus reigning on the earth.

                                Now if it was Jesus reigning physically on the earth wouldn’t it say that?

                                Yes their is a millennial reign but it’s a spiritual reign and it’s happening now

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