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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    Huh?? So, where do all saved people go when they die up to now?
    To the same place, Jesus mentioned where the Jews of old go, to Abrahams's bosom, or a Waiting place, where there is a great gulf between them and the wicked. The scripture in 1. Cor. 15 tells us this, the people who see or DREAM of kin people in Heaven are seeing into the future, as John did in the book of Revelation.

    1 Cor. 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption(our Flesh bodies can not go to Heaven) inherit incorruption(Heaven). 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(Without Flesh Bodies), and we shall be changed(FROM Flesh Bodies unto Spirit men). 53 For this corruptible(Flesh Bodies) must put on incorruption (We go to Heaven as Spirit Men to receive our Glorious bodies), and this mortal must put on immortality(Glorious bodies). 54So when this corruptible(FLESH) shall have put on incorruption (Spirit man), and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    Verse 50 ABOVE IN RED tells us that the Christians who die SLEEP, it is as plain as day, right there. They are then raised up, at the FINAL TRUMP, or when Jesus calls the Bride to the Wedding in Heaven. In a Judean wedding, the father would send the Groom, after midnight usually, to go get the bride, she was expectant, but still surprised, and the wedding guests had to have enough oil in the lamps, because if they did not make it in time they would be LOCKED OUT of the Wedding and the Feast. The Groom thus always blew a Trumpet/Shofar to awake the guests. Then the Groom and Bride spent 7 days in the Bridal suite in the father's (Father God) house (Heaven). They were all expectant, of course, they saw the father ordering food for the feast around town, making plans etc. etc. The SIGNS are all around us now, we know the Trumpet (Jesus calling us home, SEE Rev. 4:1, it says the Trump is Jesus' VOICE calling us to Heaven) is just about to call us home to Heaven.

    Our Flesh can not enter Heaven, it is DEFILED, thus we have to be CHANGED (we die in the twinkling of an eye and change unto UNCORRUPTIBLE Spirit Men, just like the Spiritual bodies of those arising from the grave, WITHOUT CORRUPTION (No Flesh). When Mary saw Jesus in John chapter 20, he told her TOUCH ME NOT, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father. In other words, Mary touching Jesus would have DEFILED the Sacrifice unto the Father. 8 days later Jesus allowed Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, in other words, he went to Heaven, offered the Sacrifice, then returned with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    So in short, the DEAD ARISE at the Last Trump, or as Rev. 4:1 says when Jesus calls us to Heaven.


    Except...there is NO mention of anyone going to heaven in 1 Cor 15. In fact, in NONE of the so-called "rapture" verses/passages is there any mention of going to heaven. So, what evidence is there to conclude that people are resurrected and taken to heaven? Thanks.
    Maybe you need to piece it together as the bible tells us to do, HERE A LITTLE, THERE A LITTLE, line upon line, precept upon precept. We see the Church in Heaven in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9 BEFORE the Seals are opened. We see the Church/Bride returning with Jesus in Rev. 19, AFTER the Marriage and BEFORE Aramegddon happens. Rev. 4:1 tells us Jesus CALLS us home with a voice that sounds like a trumpet.

    I can't make sense out of this statement. Again, what evidence is there that anyone who is raptured is taken up to heaven?
    If you can't tell by the fact that the Bride returns from Heaven WITH Jesus in Rev. 19, while the Beast and his minions are STILL ON EARTH, I can't help you.

    No it doesn't. In fact, Paul made it clear that OUR bodies are changed. That doesn't mean physical death. Physical death means separation of soul from body. What did James say about it?

    James 2:26 - As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

    And Paul said nothing about the believer's soul leaving the physical body and entering another body. No. He said clearly that our physical bodies will be changed. That isn't death.
    READ THE VERSES !! Paul NEVER says we are CHANGED via our bodies, you made that up or got duped. READ THE VERSES, I laid them out above to make it easy. Paul is referring to us CHANGING from a Flesh body to an incorruptible nature, and thus those who ARISE from the grave have NO CORRUPTION which means Sin Flesh, thus go to Heaven as Spirit men, whoever heard of getting your Rewards on earth? Where do you guys come up with these ideas? We are judged in Heaven and thus get our White Robes in Heaven, not on earth, better known as a Glorious Body.

    If you think w fly through the air to Heaven in these SINFUL FLESH BODIES, you are mistaken.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
      Huh?? So, where do all saved people go when they die up to now?
      Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post

      To the same place,
      Huh? How can it be "the same place" when you said no one goes to heaven until the rapture??

      Jesus mentioned where the Jews of old go, to Abrahams's bosom, or a Waiting place, where there is a great gulf between them and the wicked. The scripture in 1. Cor. 15 tells us this, the people who see or DREAM of kin people in Heaven are seeing into the future, as John did in the book of Revelation.
      When Jesus died, He went to Sheol, where Abraham's bosom, or Paradise, is. He "preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:19). Then He took ALL of the OT believers up to heaven with Him. That's why He told Martha not to touch Him because He had not returned to the Father yet (John 20:17).

      52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(Without Flesh Bodies), and we shall be changed(FROM Flesh Bodies unto Spirit men). 53 For this corruptible(Flesh Bodies) must put on incorruption (We go to Heaven as Spirit Men to receive our Glorious bodies), and this mortal must put on immortality(Glorious bodies). 54So when this corruptible(FLESH) shall have put on incorruption (Spirit man), and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
      This is a description of the Lord's 2nd Advent.

      Verse 50 ABOVE IN RED tells us that the Christians who die SLEEP, it is as plain as day, right there.
      The word "sleep" refers to physical death. The Bible doesn't say "Christians who die sleep". Look at 1 Cor 11:30. Look at John 11 where Jesus described Lazarus as sleeping, when he had physically died.

      They are then raised up, at the FINAL TRUMP, or when Jesus calls the Bride to the Wedding in Heaven.
      The verses that speak of believers being "raised up" refer to being resurrected.

      Our Flesh can not enter Heaven, it is DEFILED, thus we have to be CHANGED (we die in the twinkling of an eye and change unto UNCORRUPTIBLE Spirit Men, just like the Spiritual bodies of those arising from the grave, WITHOUT CORRUPTION (No Flesh). When Mary saw Jesus in John chapter 20, he told her TOUCH ME NOT, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father. In other words, Mary touching Jesus would have DEFILED the Sacrifice unto the Father. 8 days later Jesus allowed Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, in other words, he went to Heaven, offered the Sacrifice, then returned with the gift of the Holy Spirit.
      No. Jesus made His ONLY sacrifice on a cross, in His physical body BEFORE He died. There was no sacrifice made in heaven. Where do you get your information? Book chapter, and verse, please.

      So in short, the DEAD ARISE at the Last Trump, or as Rev. 4:1 says when Jesus calls us to Heaven.
      No. This is what Rev 4:1 says: English Standard Version After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

      It seems your information is coming from a source other than the Bible.

      If you can't tell by the fact that the Bride returns from Heaven WITH Jesus in Rev. 19, while the Beast and his minions are STILL ON EARTH, I can't help you.
      I'm not the one needing help understanding the Bible. In fact, when Jesus returns to earth at the wnd Advent, He brings ALL of the dead saints with Him. Not just the "Bride".

      READ THE VERSES !! Paul NEVER says we are CHANGED via our bodies, you made that up or got duped. READ THE VERSES
      Yes, I did. And so should you. Let's review 1 Cor 15:52- English Standard Version
      in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

      He didn't say we die and get another body. He said we shall be changed. Note v.42 - So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

      I laid them out above to make it easy. Paul is referring to us CHANGING from a Flesh body to an incorruptible nature, and thus those who ARISE from the grave have NO CORRUPTION which means Sin Flesh, thus go to Heaven as Spirit men
      The FIRST resurrection occurs for ALL believers when Christ returns at the 2nd Advent. Rev 20:4,5
      4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
      5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

      Note the blue words. Once resurrected, they will reign with Christ 1,000 years. This occurs on earth, not in heaven.

      whoever heard of getting your Rewards on earth? Where do you guys come up with these ideas?
      O can't speak for others, but I get my information from the Bible. I wonder where you have gotten your information.

      When Jesus returns to earth at the 2nd Advent, He obviously sets up His Kingdom, as Rev 20 explains. That's when believers will be given their reward, if they have earned any.

      We are judged in Heaven and thus get our White Robes in Heaven, not on earth, better known as a Glorious Body.
      OK, book, chapter, and verse please.

      If you think w fly through the air to Heaven in these SINFUL FLESH BODIES, you are mistaken.
      Why would anyone think that this is my view? It sure isn't. At the resurrection, NO believers will go to heaven. They STAY on earth and "reign with Christ for 1,000 years", just as the Bible says.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
        This thread is about verses that indicate that Jesus takes believer back to heaven (before the Tribulation) when He resurrects them. Your posts have nothing to do with the thread. Could you start a new thread please?

        And, since John 7:33 was a statement from Jesus BEFORE He died on the cross, of course He was going to heaven. But that has nothing to do with any rapture.
        Is it deviating from the topic to address the rising/ anistemi, of Jesus WITH THE SAINTS? Do you not get it either? We shall rise WITH JESUS , because we believe that Jesus rose to the Father.

        1Th 4:14-17 KJV 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, [anistemi] even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend [Do you see any saints here? ] from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [anistemi] 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

        So, when the living are caught UP with them in the clouds, which way are they going? I give you 2 clues:
        1. U
        2. P

        How about 2 more?
        1. Rise
        2. First.

        The blessed hope is the resurrection because we shall be like him, and we shall see him as HE IS, at his appearing/ phanero.

        1. John said that we shall be just like him, at the "phanero", 1John 3:2
        2. Paul said that we shall "anistemi", at the parousia.
        3. Peter said that we shall receive the "salvation of our souls" at the "apokalupsis".
        4. Matthew, Mark and Luke say that Jesus will come with great power and glory and with the holy angels at the "erchomai".
        5. John said that every eye will see him at his revelation,
        6. Luke told us what would happen at the "apokalupto".
        7. Paul told us that he would judge the quick and the dead at the "epiphaneia".


        But it's all about His coming, that leads to the 2nd advent.

        Be Blessed
        The PuP

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post

          Is it deviating from the topic to address the rising/ anistemi, of Jesus WITH THE SAINTS?
          Yes it is. The challenge of this thread is to provide verses that clearly teach that Jesus takes resurrected believers back to heaven. Your posts do not address that.

          Do you not get it either? We shall rise WITH JESUS , because we believe that Jesus rose to the Father.
          Of course all living believers will rise up in the air to meet the Lord IN THE AIR. But where does the Bible say that Jesus then takes them back to heaven?

          1Th 4:14-17 KJV 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, [anistemi] even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend [Do you see any saints here? ] from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [anistemi] 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
          Yes, the "classic" pre-Trib proof text passage. Yet, as all can plainly see, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking these resurrected believers back up to heaven.

          So, when the living are caught UP with them in the clouds, which way are they going? I give you 2 clues:
          1. U
          2. P
          OK, that's your opinion. But where does Scripture clearly state that? Nowhere is where.

          How about 2 more?
          1. Rise
          2. First.
          I don't need any clues. All of the supposed pre-Trib rapture passages are parallel to the 2nd Advent passages.

          The blessed hope is the resurrection because we shall be like him, and we shall see him as HE IS, at his appearing/ phanero.
          Yes sir. But what verses say Jesus takes any of them back to heaven?

          1. John said that we shall be just like him, at the "phanero", 1John 3:2
          2. Paul said that we shall "anistemi", at the parousia.
          3. Peter said that we shall receive the "salvation of our souls" at the "apokalupsis".
          4. Matthew, Mark and Luke say that Jesus will come with great power and glory and with the holy angels at the "erchomai".
          5. John said that every eye will see him at his revelation,
          6. Luke told us what would happen at the "apokalupto".
          7. Paul told us that he would judge the quick and the dead at the "epiphaneia".
          Still failing to show ANY verse that says that Jesus takes the resurrected believers back up to heaven.

          But it's all about His coming, that leads to the 2nd advent.
          These are one and the same.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
            The misunderstanding is all on your part. Let me show you the insanity of what you believe. You claim that the disciples [are] NOW sad because Jesus IS CURRENTLY gone for a little while to the Father. Have you no joy? Mary Magdalene was weeping and crying before she seen Jesus. Why?
            Sorry, but putting words into my mouth which I have NEVER uttered is the start of a strawman.
            I did NOT say the disciples are currently sad. I highlighted that this would be the result of YOUR interpretation of these passages.
            Jesus said they would be sad for a little while and then have joy after a little while.
            This is what I take those passages to mean.
            They are sad because He is going away, and he does for He dies.
            However they then have joy because He comes back ALIVE.
            This is also what those passages show, they mourn but and remain mournful because they do NOT believe the women. But when they SEE Jesus they are filled with joy. Thus we see the fulfilment of what Jesus said - and it is found entirely within Him coming alive one earth.
            Our blessed hope is another ting altogether.
            You are mistakenly still living in the time before "THEN" occurs. David said that my flesh rests in hope because of the resurrection. Peter said that we have a lively hope, because of the resurrection. Paul said that the appearance of Christ is the Blessed hope, because we shall be like [him], when we shall see him as he is. We have the Holy Ghost full of the glory and of the countenance of Christ, because Jesus was glorified when he ascended to the Father. Do you have any joy? I [am] beginning to doubt [this] because you are still living in the "then", [waiting for Christ to come back from his "little while" with the Father]. Christ ascended and gave gifts to all men WHEN HE descended back to earth. [The gifts of the Holy Ghost were not given until Jesus ascended to the Father, and subsequently descended into the lower parts of the earth and gave gifts into men].
            [Eph 4:9-10 KJV 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)]
            You seem to be TOTALLY confused as to the TIMING given.
            Yes we have a HOPE which is found in the resurrection. However the disciples joy was NOT because of the resurrection that they would have, but because of the resurrection of Jesus!
            More over you are WRONG to say that Jesus "subsequently descended" into the lower parts of the earth, as Ephesians 4, which you quoted) states He descended FIRST into the lower parts. This is Paul speaking of Jesus' DEATH. The lower parts of the earth is the GRAVE!
            Jesus DIED and thus went to Hades (the lower parts) and that He then ascended out of Hades and then ascended far above all heavens.

            If you do not read what you quote and don't pay attention to what it says then there is no hope for proper understanding.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
              Sorry, but putting words into my mouth which I have NEVER uttered is the start of a strawman.
              I did NOT say the disciples are currently sad. I highlighted that this would be the result of YOUR interpretation of these passages.
              Jesus said they would be sad for a little while and then have joy after a little while.
              This is what I take those passages to mean.
              They are sad because He is going away, and he does for He dies.
              However they then have joy because He comes back ALIVE.
              This is also what those passages show, they mourn but and remain mournful because they do NOT believe the women. But when they SEE Jesus they are filled with joy. Thus we see the fulfilment of what Jesus said - and it is found entirely within Him coming alive one earth.
              Our blessed hope is another ting altogether.

              You seem to be TOTALLY confused as to the TIMING given.
              Yes we have a HOPE which is found in the resurrection. However the disciples joy was NOT because of the resurrection that they would have, but because of the resurrection of Jesus!
              More over you are WRONG to say that Jesus "subsequently descended" into the lower parts of the earth, as Ephesians 4, which you quoted) states He descended FIRST into the lower parts. This is Paul speaking of Jesus' DEATH. The lower parts of the earth is the GRAVE!
              Jesus DIED and thus went to Hades (the lower parts) and that He then ascended out of Hades and then ascended far above all heavens.

              If you do not read what you quote and don't pay attention to what it says then there is no hope for proper understanding.
              My apologies about John 16. Somehow, I thought you were supporting the notion that "in a little while" was referring to the time that precedes the 2nd advent. I didn't find that in any of your posts. Correct me if we differ here. The little while refers to the time after the crucifixion, until they seen him again. My point about that (John 16) is that the "little while" refers specifically to Jesus leaving this world and going to the Father, and not in a "little" more broad sense of simply before Jesus was resurrected.. This is our (imo) point of contention. Jesus was already egeiro when he met Mary Magdalene. Yes, Mary saw Jesus after he was resurrected and was glad. But do you agree that Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father, at that point? Would you also agree that Jesus did go to the Father, that day before he met the eleven, as per Mark 16, John 20? I don't believe that Mary Magdalene was there when Jesus spoke the words of John 16, and therefore it would not have to be specifically true for Mary; because Jesus said that the basis for them (the apostles) not seeing Jesus for a little while was, "...BECAUSE I go to the Father. "
              In a roundabout way, I respect your opinion regarding "egeiro vs. anistemi ", because Mary did see Jesus after he was resurrected. It is the basis of why there is a difference between the two terms. That is why I quoted Ephesians 4. So let me [post] that scripture. [And one other].

              Eph 4:7-13 KJV 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

              And this scripture:


              Act 17:31-32 KJV 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised [ANISTEMI] him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

              You will get no argument from me, that Paul is referring to the resurrection of Christ. But he used the word anistemi, and not simply egeiro, or even the word for resurrection, Anastasia. But he singles out the word anistemi. So what is the context here for its usage here? It is, "he has given assurance to all men". But it's not just that, but it is "in righteousness by that man [Jesus]..." has he given this assurance to all men. So now, let's look specifically at Ephesians 4.

              So what happened when Christ "ascended up on high [far above all heavens] "?

              He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men. The gifts that he gave unto men are what he listed there... apostles, prophets, etc. What are they for? Edifying the body of Christ... for the sake that we might live in the righteousness that was exemplified by the LIFE of Christ. When did he give these gifts? At the very least, you have to say that it happened no sooner than when he ascended upon high... And most definitely not before that time. Christ "gave gifts unto men" BECAUSE he ascended upon high. Not because he descended to the lower parts. To say that this refers to the time that Christ was in the grave, and before his resurrection, is to say that this is when Christ gave the manifest gifts of the Holy Ghost... when he was in hell. That just ain't true and this is defended by the scriptures.

              Christ went to the Father, AFTER he told Mary Magdalene, "I have not yet ascended to the Father". And so, AFTER having been to the Father, he appeared to the disciples, namely Mark 16 and John 20, but it is also part of Matthew and Luke's accounts, and breathed on them, saying,

              Joh 20:22 KJV And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

              Why could he say this now? Because Jesus had ascended to the Father and received glory.

              Joh 7:39 KJV (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

              How did Jesus get that glory? By ascending to the Father.

              What does the glory consist of? Sending the Holy Ghost to all who believe. It is the promise of the Father. It is the witness that Christ lives in us. It is the assurance that he has given to all men. It is the witness of the Holy Ghost in us, manifested in the gifts given to the church, Ephesians 4, et al.

              Christ ascended far above all heavens and gave gifts unto men. Those gifts were given, not when he was in the depths of hell, but only AFTER he descended from the Father.

              Don't get the cart before the horse.

              He ascended to [the] Father, was given the glory [Acts 2:33, He Received From The Father], then he descended [FIRST] from the Father, and THEN He gave them the Holy Ghost. Look again at Acts 17.

              Act 17:31 KJV Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

              [Let's see if you learned anything].

              What is the assurance that he has given?
              The testimonial witness of the Holy Ghost!

              What do the gifts of the Holy Ghost bear witness of?
              That he hath raised Christ from the dead.

              How did Christ rise from the dead?
              By ascending to the Father! The anistemi!

              [THE GIFTS BEAR WEAR WITNESS OF THE ANISTEMI!!!]

              Be Blessed
              The PuP

              P.s. If this doesn't help you to see the difference between egeiro and anistemi, I very seriously doubt that you ever will.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                My apologies about John 16. Somehow, I thought you were supporting the notion that "in a little while" was referring to the time that precedes the 2nd advent. I didn't find that in any of your posts. Correct me if we differ here. The little while refers to the time after the crucifixion, until they seen him again. My point about that (John 16) is that the "little while" refers specifically to Jesus leaving this world and going to the Father, and not in a "little" more broad sense of simply before Jesus was resurrected.
                So we agree on this I think.

                This is our (imo) point of contention. Jesus was already egeiro when he met Mary Magdalene. Yes, Mary saw Jesus after he was resurrected and was glad. But do you agree that Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father, at that point? Would you also agree that Jesus did go to the Father, that day before he met the eleven, as per Mark 16, John 20? I don't believe that Mary Magdalene was there when Jesus spoke the words of John 16, and therefore it would not have to be specifically true for Mary; because Jesus said that the basis for them (the apostles) not seeing Jesus for a little while was, "...BECAUSE I go to the Father. "
                In a roundabout way, I respect your opinion regarding "egeiro vs. anistemi ", because Mary did see Jesus after he was resurrected.
                So let's deal with the claim that Jesus was already egeiro when He met Mary.
                Yes He was already egeiro. However why I disagree with you is that Jesus was ALSO anistemi when He met Mary.
                Mar 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

                In Mark's passage he uses the word anistemi to indicate Jesus was risen, and that Jesus was anistemi when He met Mary.
                So not only was Jesus egeiro, He was ALSO anistemi according to how the Gospel writers used the word.
                I think you agree that Jesus had NOT ascended to the Father BEFORE meeting Mary.

                Moreover we have John who wrote:
                Joh 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

                This is also anistemi, but is NOR speaking of Jesus' ascension, but simply about coming to life from death.
                This is confirmed later in John 20, because clearly at this point in time Jesus is risen, yet John then tells the story of Jesus meeting Mary.
                The confirmation is found here:
                Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
                Here John does NOT say Jesus will anistemi (rise) to the Father, but will anabaino to the Father.
                G305
                ἀναβαίνω
                anabainō
                an-ab-ah'ee-no
                From G303 and the base of G939; to go up (literally or figuratively): - arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

                It is the basis of why there is a difference between the two terms.
                There is NO basis in the NT either in the Gospels or in the Letters to make the difference you are claiming between anistemi and egeiro.
                It also makes NO difference whether Mary heard the words Jesus spoke in John 16. Mary can have the SAME reasons for being sad as the disciples, that is Jesus died. She will also have the SAME reason for being joyful, for her Lord lives.
                Now the disciples DID see Jesus BEFORE His final ascension to the Father, and so they DID see Him in a little while.
                Where you also err is you CONFLATE "because I go to the Father" with "in a little while."
                Note that in John 16 we read:
                Joh 16:17 So some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and, ‘because I am going to the Father’?”

                However the disciples are referring to TWO separate statements that Jesus made. This is why John has the word "and" in between.
                The first portion is stated here:
                Joh 16:16 “A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me.” and was the last thing Jesus said and refers to His death and resurrection from the dead.
                However the second part Jesus spoke earlier:
                Joh 16:10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;

                I have put in italics the point that Jesus is making TWO separate points. IN John 16:16 the disciples WILL see Jesus, but in John 16:10 the disciples will NOT see Jesus. The little while then is NOT about John 16:10, but is about John 16:16.

                That is why I quoted Ephesians 4. So let me [post] that scripture. [And one other].
                Eph 4:7-13 KJV 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
                Note that in this passage Paul uses the terms anabaino for ascend and katabaino for descend. There is NO anistemi involved here.

                And this scripture:
                Act 17:31-32 KJV 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised [ANISTEMI] him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
                You will get no argument from me, that Paul is referring to the resurrection of Christ. But he used the word anistemi, and not simply egeiro, or even the word for resurrection, Anastasia. But he singles out the word anistemi. So what is the context here for its usage here? It is, "he has given assurance to all men". But it's not just that, but it is "in righteousness by that man [Jesus]..." has he given this assurance to all men.
                Paul is, as you seem to agree speaking about a resurrection from the dead and NOT about HIs ascension to the Father, yet you try to claim that Paul is being very specific in using anistemi instead of egeiro, though to this point it is used interchangeably.
                Also note that when Jesus raises these people from the dead for judgement we would NOT say they are ascended to the Father, nor that they go to heaven. On the contrary many of those who are raised from the dead for judgement go to hell, which is to descend.
                This passage in Acts connects with this one in Rev 20:
                Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
                Note that the rest of the dead are those resurrected for judgement, and are not part of the FIRST resurrection, but instead a SECOND later resurrection.
                There is no righteous connected with being raised from the dead. Rather it is the One who is raised from the dead who is righteous (or not).
                Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
                Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
                Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
                Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
                Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

                So now, let's look specifically at Ephesians 4.
                So what happened when Christ "ascended up on high [far above all heavens] "?
                He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men. The gifts that he gave unto men are what he listed there... apostles, prophets, etc. What are they for? Edifying the body of Christ... for the sake that we might live in the righteousness that was exemplified by the LIFE of Christ. When did he give these gifts? At the very least, you have to say that it happened no sooner than when he ascended upon high... And most definitely not before that time. Christ "gave gifts unto men" BECAUSE he ascended upon high. Not because he descended to the lower parts. To say that this refers to the time that Christ was in the grave, and before his resurrection, is to say that this is when Christ gave the manifest gifts of the Holy Ghost... when he was in hell. That just ain't true and this is defended by the scriptures.
                This doesn't help your case in the slightest. For Jesus spoke of anabaino to the Father NOT anistemi.
                Moreover the gifts of the Holy Spirit are indeed AFTER He FIRST descended (katabaino), and then led captivity captive as He ascended (anabaino).
                It was this action of katabaino followed by anabaino which speaks of what you claim and NOT anistemi.

                Christ went to the Father, AFTER he told Mary Magdalene, "I have not yet ascended to the Father". And so, AFTER having been to the Father, he appeared to the disciples, namely Mark 16 and John 20, but it is also part of Matthew and Luke's accounts, and breathed on them, saying,
                Joh 20:22 KJV And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
                Why could he say this now? Because Jesus had ascended to the Father and received glory.
                Joh 7:39 KJV (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
                How did Jesus get that glory? By ascending to the Father.
                What does the glory consist of? Sending the Holy Ghost to all who believe. It is the promise of the Father. It is the witness that Christ lives in us. It is the assurance that he has given to all men. It is the witness of the Holy Ghost in us, manifested in the gifts given to the church, Ephesians 4, et al.
                Christ ascended far above all heavens and gave gifts unto men. Those gifts were given, not when he was in the depths of hell, but only AFTER he descended from the Father.
                As I noted above this speaks NOT of anistemi but anabaino.
                Moroever you try to dispute CLEAR scripture by using argument and an attempt at logic, yet our logos is Christ and Paul spoke plainly and clearly in what he wrote.
                Jesus descended FIRST to the grave, THEN Jesus ascended to the Father.
                Their was NO statement by Paul about a FURTHER descent, nor do other writers make much of it.
                What was Jesus' command in regards to receiving the Holy Spirit?
                He said "Wait in Jerusalem!"
                He ascended to the Father and did NOT descend again.
                10 days later the Holy Spirit came in power.

                Don't get the cart before the horse.
                He ascended to [the] Father, was given the glory [Acts 2:33, He Received From The Father], then he descended [FIRST] from the Father, and THEN He gave them the Holy Ghost. Look again at Acts 17.
                Act 17:31 KJV Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
                [Let's see if you learned anything].
                What is the assurance that he has given?
                The testimonial witness of the Holy Ghost!
                What do the gifts of the Holy Ghost bear witness of?
                That he hath raised Christ from the dead.
                How did Christ rise from the dead?
                By ascending to the Father! The anistemi!
                [THE GIFTS BEAR WEAR WITNESS OF THE ANISTEMI!!!]
                Indeed please do NOT get the cart before the horse.
                Acts 2:33 occurs AFTER Jesus anabaino (not anistemi) to the Father. He does NOT descend to give these gifts, but sends the Holy Spirit instead. It is the Holy Spirit who descends. Again read Acts 2:1 - 4
                The Gifts do NOT bear witness of anistemi, but SPECIFICALLY to His death, descent to the grave (katabaino), His rising from the dead (egeiro/anistemi) on the 3rd day AND His ascension to the Father (anabaino). However without His ascent (anabaino) then He would not be sending the Holy Spirit as per John 16:10 which is AFTER the events of the first day of His resurrection.

                You have NOT provided a single scripture which makes the connection you claim between anistemi and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I meanwhile have provided scripture which shows anistemi used interchangeably with egeiro, and scripture which shows anabaino is related to the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
                I very much doubt I will get anything which shows otherwise.
                In terms of this thread, what we have is Jesus ascended to the Father, but that Jesus said to the disciples (and us) that we cannot go there (or see Him there). We will one day ascend to the clouds, but no further than that.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                  So we agree on this I think.


                  So let's deal with the claim that Jesus was already egeiro when He met Mary.
                  Yes He was already egeiro. However why I disagree with you is that Jesus was ALSO anistemi when He met Mary.
                  Mar 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

                  In Mark's passage he uses the word anistemi to indicate Jesus was risen, and that Jesus was anistemi when He met Mary.
                  So not only was Jesus egeiro, He was ALSO anistemi according to how the Gospel writers used the word.
                  I think you agree that Jesus had NOT ascended to the Father BEFORE meeting Mary.

                  Moreover we have John who wrote:
                  Joh 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

                  This is also anistemi, but is NOR speaking of Jesus' ascension, but simply about coming to life from death.
                  This is confirmed later in John 20, because clearly at this point in time Jesus is risen, yet John then tells the story of Jesus meeting Mary.
                  The confirmation is found here:
                  Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
                  Here John does NOT say Jesus will anistemi (rise) to the Father, but will anabaino to the Father.
                  G305
                  ἀναβαίνω
                  anabainō
                  an-ab-ah'ee-no
                  From G303 and the base of G939; to go up (literally or figuratively): - arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).


                  There is NO basis in the NT either in the Gospels or in the Letters to make the difference you are claiming between anistemi and egeiro.
                  It also makes NO difference whether Mary heard the words Jesus spoke in John 16. Mary can have the SAME reasons for being sad as the disciples, that is Jesus died. She will also have the SAME reason for being joyful, for her Lord lives.
                  Now the disciples DID see Jesus BEFORE His final ascension to the Father, and so they DID see Him in a little while.
                  Where you also err is you CONFLATE "because I go to the Father" with "in a little while."
                  Note that in John 16 we read:
                  Joh 16:17 So some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and, ‘because I am going to the Father’?”

                  However the disciples are referring to TWO separate statements that Jesus made. This is why John has the word "and" in between.
                  The first portion is stated here:
                  Joh 16:16 “A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me.” and was the last thing Jesus said and refers to His death and resurrection from the dead.
                  However the second part Jesus spoke earlier:
                  Joh 16:10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;

                  I have put in italics the point that Jesus is making TWO separate points. IN John 16:16 the disciples WILL see Jesus, but in John 16:10 the disciples will NOT see Jesus. The little while then is NOT about John 16:10, but is about John 16:16.


                  Note that in this passage Paul uses the terms anabaino for ascend and katabaino for descend. There is NO anistemi involved here.


                  Paul is, as you seem to agree speaking about a resurrection from the dead and NOT about HIs ascension to the Father, yet you try to claim that Paul is being very specific in using anistemi instead of egeiro, though to this point it is used interchangeably.
                  Also note that when Jesus raises these people from the dead for judgement we would NOT say they are ascended to the Father, nor that they go to heaven. On the contrary many of those who are raised from the dead for judgement go to hell, which is to descend.
                  This passage in Acts connects with this one in Rev 20:
                  Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
                  Note that the rest of the dead are those resurrected for judgement, and are not part of the FIRST resurrection, but instead a SECOND later resurrection.
                  There is no righteous connected with being raised from the dead. Rather it is the One who is raised from the dead who is righteous (or not).
                  Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
                  Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
                  Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
                  Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
                  Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


                  This doesn't help your case in the slightest. For Jesus spoke of anabaino to the Father NOT anistemi.
                  Moreover the gifts of the Holy Spirit are indeed AFTER He FIRST descended (katabaino), and then led captivity captive as He ascended (anabaino).
                  It was this action of katabaino followed by anabaino which speaks of what you claim and NOT anistemi.


                  As I noted above this speaks NOT of anistemi but anabaino.
                  Moroever you try to dispute CLEAR scripture by using argument and an attempt at logic, yet our logos is Christ and Paul spoke plainly and clearly in what he wrote.
                  Jesus descended FIRST to the grave, THEN Jesus ascended to the Father.
                  Their was NO statement by Paul about a FURTHER descent, nor do other writers make much of it.
                  What was Jesus' command in regards to receiving the Holy Spirit?
                  He said "Wait in Jerusalem!"
                  He ascended to the Father and did NOT descend again.
                  10 days later the Holy Spirit came in power.


                  Indeed please do NOT get the cart before the horse.
                  Acts 2:33 occurs AFTER Jesus anabaino (not anistemi) to the Father. He does NOT descend to give these gifts, but sends the Holy Spirit instead. It is the Holy Spirit who descends. Again read Acts 2:1 - 4
                  The Gifts do NOT bear witness of anistemi, but SPECIFICALLY to His death, descent to the grave (katabaino), His rising from the dead (egeiro/anistemi) on the 3rd day AND His ascension to the Father (anabaino). However without His ascent (anabaino) then He would not be sending the Holy Spirit as per John 16:10 which is AFTER the events of the first day of His resurrection.

                  You have NOT provided a single scripture which makes the connection you claim between anistemi and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I meanwhile have provided scripture which shows anistemi used interchangeably with egeiro, and scripture which shows anabaino is related to the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
                  I very much doubt I will get anything which shows otherwise.
                  In terms of this thread, what we have is Jesus ascended to the Father, but that Jesus said to the disciples (and us) that we cannot go there (or see Him there). We will one day ascend to the clouds, but no further than that.
                  I disagree.

                  We agree that Jesus was anistemi and egeiro on the first day of the week, resurrection day. Where we (seem to) disagree is whether Jesus was anabaino on that same day.

                  Jesus told Mary, stop touching me because I have not "anabaino". John 20. Later that same day, Jesus told the disciples to handle me. Luke 24:39.

                  Jesus told the apostles that they could not receive, lambano, the Holy Ghost because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:39.

                  Jesus said to the Father in prayer, that the hour is come for the Father to glorify thy son, with the glory that he had when he was WITH the Father in the beginning. John 17:1,5.
                  This glory came by Jesus being with the Father.

                  John also said, "Jesus breathed on them saying, Receive ye, lambano, the Holy Ghost, John 20:22.

                  Peter said that Jesus received, lambano, the promise OF THE FATHER, the Holy Ghost, from the Father, Acts 2:33, by ascending anabaino, to the Father.

                  Paul said that we have the assurance of the resurrection, the gifts of the Holy Ghost, because Jesus rose, anistemi, from the dead.

                  Paul also said that we have the gifts of the Holy Ghost because Jesus ascended to the Father. Ephesians 4.

                  Jesus was in another form when he appeared unto the 2 Emmaus disciples, after he met Mary Magdalene earlier that day. Contrary to what you believe, the anistemi occurred when Jesus ascended, anabaino, and received the glory and the promise of the Holy Ghost FROM the Father.

                  If you can't reach the same conclusion with all that, I can't help you.

                  Be Blessed
                  The PuP

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                    I disagree.
                    Not sure what you are disagreeing about! Perhaps if you said at this point it would be clearer.

                    We agree that Jesus was anistemi and egeiro on the first day of the week, resurrection day. Where we (seem to) disagree is whether Jesus was anabaino on that same day.
                    Jesus told Mary, stop touching me because I have not "anabaino". John 20. Later that same day, Jesus told the disciples to handle me. Luke 24:39.
                    Jesus told the apostles that they could not receive, lambano, the Holy Ghost because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:39.
                    Jesus said to the Father in prayer, that the hour is come for the Father to glorify thy son, with the glory that he had when he was WITH the Father in the beginning. John 17:1,5.
                    This glory came by Jesus being with the Father.
                    John also said, "Jesus breathed on them saying, Receive ye, lambano, the Holy Ghost, John 20:22.
                    Peter said that Jesus received, lambano, the promise OF THE FATHER, the Holy Ghost, from the Father, Acts 2:33, by ascending anabaino, to the Father.
                    So far we have ZERO disagreement.
                    Jesus had NOT anabaino when He met Mary, but later that SAME Day he had anabaino becase when He later meets the disciples then CAN touch Him AND they are also given the Holy Spirit (for Jesus breathed on them and they received it.)

                    Paul said that we have the assurance of the resurrection, the gifts of the Holy Ghost, because Jesus rose, anistemi, from the dead.
                    Paul also said that we have the gifts of the Holy Ghost because Jesus ascended to the Father. Ephesians 4.
                    Jesus was in another form when he appeared unto the 2 Emmaus disciples, after he met Mary Magdalene earlier that day. Contrary to what you believe, the anistemi occurred when Jesus ascended, anabaino, and received the glory and the promise of the Holy Ghost FROM the Father.
                    If you can't reach the same conclusion with all that, I can't help you.
                    You see our disagreement is NOT about anabaino but about anistemi.
                    As Paul said we have assurance of the resurrection BECAUSE Jesus rose from the dead. It is immaterial whether Paul uses egeiro or anistemi to refer to this rising from the dead.
                    As you also note Paul connects the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit (which is also what the streams of living water are about IMO) with anabaino.
                    However where does Paul say we have the gifts of the Holy Spirit because Jesus rose?
                    I do NOT find a SINGLE reference by Paul (or any other NT writer) which connects the gifts of the Holy Spirit with anistemi.
                    There is of course an indirect connection for Jesus did NOT anabaino without first egeiro/anistemi, but as you have correctly presented above it is anabaino, and Jesus being with the Father, that then points to the glorifying of Jesus and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
                    As I noted earlier Jesus ascended, and told the disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the POWER of the Holy Spirit to come on them.

                    When you have actual scripture which supports your claim, please do present it.
                    However what you have so far is provided NOTHING which means that anistemi and anabaino are the SAME thought or idea. Instead we have anistemi and egeiro providing the SAME idea, and BOTH relate to the CHANGE from being dead to being alive and NOT to any form of ascension.
                    This means that 1 Thess 4 (as the CONTEXT shows) is about the change from being dead to being alive and ALL who are alive in Him are RAPTURED to meet Him in the clouds.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                      Not sure what you are disagreeing about! Perhaps if you said at this point it would be clearer.


                      So far we have ZERO disagreement.
                      Jesus had NOT anabaino when He met Mary, but later that SAME Day he had anabaino becase when He later meets the disciples then CAN touch Him AND they are also given the Holy Spirit (for Jesus breathed on them and they received it.)


                      You see our disagreement is NOT about anabaino but about anistemi.
                      As Paul said we have assurance of the resurrection BECAUSE Jesus rose from the dead. It is immaterial whether Paul uses egeiro or anistemi to refer to this rising from the dead.
                      As you also note Paul connects the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit (which is also what the streams of living water are about IMO) with anabaino.
                      However where does Paul say we have the gifts of the Holy Spirit because Jesus rose?
                      I do NOT find a SINGLE reference by Paul (or any other NT writer) which connects the gifts of the Holy Spirit with anistemi.
                      There is of course an indirect connection for Jesus did NOT anabaino without first egeiro/anistemi, but as you have correctly presented above it is anabaino, and Jesus being with the Father, that then points to the glorifying of Jesus and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
                      As I noted earlier Jesus ascended, and told the disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the POWER of the Holy Spirit to come on them.

                      When you have actual scripture which supports your claim, please do present it.
                      However what you have so far is provided NOTHING which means that anistemi and anabaino are the SAME thought or idea. Instead we have anistemi and egeiro providing the SAME idea, and BOTH relate to the CHANGE from being dead to being alive and NOT to any form of ascension.
                      This means that 1 Thess 4 (as the CONTEXT shows) is about the change from being dead to being alive and ALL who are alive in Him are RAPTURED to meet Him in the clouds.
                      You apparently either believe that:
                      1. The assurance of the resurrection of Jesus is NOT found in the giving of the Holy Ghost, or
                      2. You believe that Jesus already had the gift of the Holy Ghost (getting that from the Father) when He first appeared (anistemi) to Mary Magdalene, when he clearly says that he has not ascended to the Father, where Peter says that is where he received the Holy Ghost.

                      Jesus refused Mary's worship of him because he was not yet glorified. For John said that this was the means by which the Holy Ghost was to be given... he must be glorified first, John 7:39. As the other women, who were with Mary Magdalene, left the tomb to tell his disciples, we find this:

                      Mat 28:9 KJV And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

                      Jesus forbade them not to worship him indicating that he had now been glorified and thus received the Holy Ghost from the Father. In accordance with Paul, you are either claiming that he had the gifts of the Holy Ghost when Mary met him (because Jesus was already anistemi and had the assurance of the Holy Ghost Ghost with him already). On one hand, you are denying how Peter and Paul says that Jesus received the Holy Ghost (Acts 2, Eph 4) by the anabaino, (by saying that) he already had the Holy Ghost because he was anistemi, but not yet anabaino. On the other hand, you are foreboding the need (by the words of Jesus, John, Peter Paul) for Jesus to be glorified and receive the Holy Ghost from the Father, by the anabaino, because he already had gotten that assurance when he appeared to Mary and was already anistemi. . This contradicts the word of Jesus and Paul when they said it was necessary (behooved) Christ to anistemi and enter into his glory. Jesus and Paul said that Jesus receives glory, by the giving of the Holy Ghost to believers, because of the anistemi. You are holding onto a theological oxymoron.

                      P.s. the saints receive rest (by going) before God the Father at the coming of Jesus with the saints.

                      1Th 3:13 KJV To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

                      Be Blessed
                      The PuP

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        [Attempting to respond to one particular point being made in Post #12 by Pesachpup... but having trouble with the "Quote" feature freezing up... I've skimmed through this thread, but I admit I am unsure what "OVERALL point" that Pesachpup is endeavoring to make (possibly a "pre-trib" point?? [I am "pre-trib," by the way])... I agree Jesus "ascended" ON the very day of His Resurrection / ON "Firstfruit" per Lev23:10-12... but I'm disagreeing with some of the ways you/Pesachpup are addressing some of the issues, meaning, the points being made... which is why I popped on here... but am experiencing trouble with POSTING... let me see if this goes through... my apologies for this being somewhat of a curt posting ... I would have liked to have quoted the line in your Post #12 that I'm pin-pointing...]

                        Here's a post I made some time back about the phrasing in 1Th4:17 -


                        [quoting that post]

                        We (provided we're the "ALIVE and remain" / still-living at the time) are NOT said to "go up there and meet THEM where they've already been 'caught up' PRIOR to us being 'caught up'..." . No, the TEXT STATES that we will be "caught up TOGETHER [G260]" (meaning, the verb-action for both happens AT THE SAME TIME).


                        [from BibleHub, under the word "together [G260]" in that verse]

                        "In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([meaning/defined as] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb."

                        [end quoting BibleHub]

                        ____________

                        That is fairly simple.

                        That means, where it says they "rise first," that means, "'to stand again' on the earth" (before we are then "caught up TOGETHER")... though I do not believe this necessitates that any others (the unsaved) will be able to "SEE" them... just like the "Proto-Type" of Jesus' Resurrection Body (His Body, after His Resurrection... which seemed to have unusual characteristics, like when he "VANISHED out of their sight," etc--oh, and that He ONLY appeared to carefully chosen witnesses, not to EVERYONE)

                        [end quoting old post]

                        ____________



                        Hope that helps... So, while I *do* believe Jesus' "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" Jn20:17 took place some "40 days" BEFORE His LATER Acts 1:11 *VISIBLE* "went up / taken up from you into Heaven"... I think this is a different issue from the words used for being resurrected/resurrection or rise or raise/raised, etc... (hope that makes sense... and hope this posts okay = D )

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          ^ ETA: This is what I was referring to:

                          [Pesachpup in Post #12] You only find the dead in Christ rising_anistemi/ascending first, followed by those that are alive and remain rising too.
                          "rising...anistemi" [to stand again] is not the same idea as "ascending"... So the verse is not saying "the dead in Christ shall ASCEND first" (before the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" are then "caught up"... No.) The text states, "the dead in Christ shall RISE first" (meaning, "to stand again [on the earth]"). THEN... we'll be "caught up TOGETHER" (AS ONE... "caught up" AT THE SAME TIME)...This is the idea the text is conveying.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Anyone else having extreme trouble posting... logging in and out... etc??


                            [btw, 1Th4:17 doesn't provide the timing clues as to when the Rapture will occur in relation to other events (i.e. "pre-" or "post-" or "mid-" etc)... that comes via other texts/contexts elsewhere ; ) ]

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                              Anyone else having extreme trouble posting... logging in and out... etc??
                              All kinds of trouble. Most of the time can't even pull ulp the website. And then, when I do get on, the site freezes up when I try to post. I found a FAQ thread about the slowness of the site, and the recommendation was to use some kind of run function, that shows where along the line the message is slowed down. I checked that out and the info page made no sense to me.

                              Oh, and a lot of times, after logging in, I get a "server busy" message and told to "try again later".

                              [btw, 1Th4:17 doesn't provide the timing clues as to when the Rapture will occur in relation to other events (i.e. "pre-" or "post-" or "mid-" etc)... that comes via other texts/contexts elsewhere ; ) ]
                              I noticed you said you were pre-Trib. The question of this thread is what verse says that Jesus takes His resurrected and raptured believers back up to heaven? iow, Jesus comes down and after resurrecting all the dead and living believers, makes a U-turn and heads back to heaven.

                              In fact, there are none. I have found 3 facts that prove that there is no pre-trib rapture.

                              fact 1: there are no verses that teach that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting all believers.

                              fact 2: Acts 3:21 says that heaven "must receive" him (Jesus) until the time of the restoration of all things. However the Greek word for "receive" means "receive and retain, contain" in my lexicon. And 5 of 28 translations on biblehub.com have "remain in heaven". So, this prohibits the notion that Jesus leaves heaven and returns.

                              fact 3: Rev 20:5 speaks of tribulation martyrs being resurrected and calls this the "first resurrection". Keep in mind that Rev 19 describes the Second Advent of Christ, which is at the end of the Tribulation.

                              If these martyred believers are in the "first resurrection", then what would one call a pre-tribulation resurrection?

                              There is no indication that the "first resurrection" is split into 2 parts.

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                              • #90
                                My response will have to be very brief (I can try to come back later to elaborate... Also be aware I've posted longer posts on these, before... if I should be somehow prevented from getting back on, for some length of time...)

                                --[TO your] fact 1: Rev5:9 has the 24 elders stating, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"... before the FIRST SEAL is opened (just like the SAME chronology shows in other passages)... The manuscript evidence shows it this way in [something like] 23 of the 24 manuscripts available on this verse (the other manuscript leaves it BLANK [where the word "us" is, in the other 23 mss]). This is stated by them AFTER a "searching judgment" has taken place, as indicated (not only by items in the scene/location, but also) by the word for "was found" in v.5:4, which is a word found elsewhere when Paul was brought before their human/earthly BEMA SEAT / courts, in the latter parts of Acts... ; and they are wearing the very items that had been mentioned in the chpts2-3 section ("the things WHICH ARE" section), and 1:1[/1:19c/4:1] is speaking of "the things which must come to pass AFTER THESE" (and "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" 1:1 [distinct from the fact that "the things WHICH ARE" are NOT said they must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"]); ALL THESE and more make it hard for me to argue with... = D


                                --[TO your] fact 2: Acts 3:21 states, "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [re: OT prophets concerning the remainder of OT prophecies]... I believe this STARTS immediately at the time of "our Rapture" (we ['the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'] are "caught UP / -AWAY") and then the FIRST SEAL commences to unfold upon the earth, which is a PART of those "TIMES [plural]" of restoration OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouths of..." (see also [EDIT... must finish this post LATER... MY APOLOGIES!!] )

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