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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • #91
    --[TO your] fact 3: (just placing this now, for the time being...) 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] EACH [*G1538 ('each' of more than two, per BibleHub, see below)] in his own order" (meaning, there is an ORDER to it, and that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE at ONE POINT in time); Example: the "2W" are resurrected at a time completely distinct from when all others will be, theirs being at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" point in the chronology... Rev20:6 says, "Blessed...those having A PART IN the resurrection, the first" (meaning, "the resurrection OF LIFE"... not saying, "these are the FIRST ONES to be resurrected!" No. ; ) )



    [* "1538 hékastos (from hekas, "separate") – each (individual) unit viewed distinctly, i.e. as opposed to "severally" (as a group)." ]



    I could say more... but must close for now = )

    Comment


    • #92
      EDITING a part of my one post... SHOULD READ (in part):

      --[TO your] fact 2: Acts 3:21 states, "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [re: OT prophets concerning the remainder of OT prophecies] [...<snip>... (see remainder of my point at that post)]

      ...the glitch caused me to duplicate some words and leave out another, in this verse... lol... I hate that. = D

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
        My response will have to be very brief (I can try to come back later to elaborate... Also be aware I've posted longer posts on these, before... if I should be somehow prevented from getting back on, for some length of time...)

        --[TO your] fact 1: Rev5:9 has the 24 elders stating, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"... before the FIRST SEAL is opened (just like the SAME chronology shows in other passages)... The manuscript evidence shows it this way in [something like] 23 of the 24 manuscripts available on this verse (the other manuscript leaves it BLANK [where the word "us" is, in the other 23 mss]). This is stated by them AFTER a "searching judgment" has taken place, as indicated (not only by items in the scene/location, but also) by the word for "was found" in v.5:4, which is a word found elsewhere when Paul was brought before their human/earthly BEMA SEAT / courts, in the latter parts of Acts... ; and they are wearing the very items that had been mentioned in the chpts2-3 section ("the things WHICH ARE" section), and 1:1[/1:19c/4:1] is speaking of "the things which must come to pass AFTER THESE" (and "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" 1:1 [distinct from the fact that "the things WHICH ARE" are NOT said they must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"]); ALL THESE and more make it hard for me to argue with... = D
        Sorry, but I fail to understand how any of this refutes the fact that there are no verses that teach that Jesus returns to heaven with resurrected saints.

        Were you agreeing with me or disagreeing? I couldn't tell.

        --[TO your] fact 2: Acts 3:21 states, "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [re: OT prophets concerning the remainder of OT prophecies]... I believe this STARTS immediately at the time of "our Rapture" (we ['the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'] are "caught UP / -AWAY") and then the FIRST SEAL commences to unfold upon the earth, which is a PART of those "TIMES [plural]" of restoration OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouths of..." (see also [EDIT... must finish this post LATER... MY APOLOGIES!!] )
        Unfortunately you didn't address the Greek word for "receive", as I did. And there are 4 or 5 translations that say that Jesus remains in heaven until the restoration of all things.

        Acts 3:21 has no relation to Jesus' ascension. That was addressed in ch 1. Paul was making a statement about Jesus being received and retained in heaven until the restoration of all things.

        Plain as day.

        I am interested in how you explain the "first resurrection" of Rev 20:5 as being part of a pre-trib rapture which includes another resurrection.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
          --[TO your] fact 3: (just placing this now, for the time being...) 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] EACH [*G1538 ('each' of more than two, per BibleHub, see below)] in his own order" (meaning, there is an ORDER to it, and that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE at ONE POINT in time); Example: the "2W" are resurrected at a time completely distinct from when all others will be, theirs being at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" point in the chronology... Rev20:6 says, "Blessed...those having A PART IN the resurrection, the first" (meaning, "the resurrection OF LIFE"... not saying, "these are the FIRST ONES to be resurrected!" No. ; ) )
          The verse isn't difficult to understand. "But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits, then when He comes, those who belong to Him."

          I don't see 2 categories or events of those who belong to Him. I see Christ as being the FIRST to be resurrected, then when He comes, EVERYONE else, who is resurrected. The verse does not support a pre-Trib resurrection and return to heaven. In fact, there are no verses that do.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
            Unfortunately you didn't address the Greek word for "receive", as I did. And there are 4 or 5 translations that say that Jesus remains in heaven until the restoration of all things.
            Incorrect. It says, "until the TIMES of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His Holy prophets from the age" ... which is what I am saying commences once He "DESCENDs" (to "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"... when we ['the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'] are "caught UP / -AWAY" to that location)... then the OT prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled commence to unfold in their "fulfillments" (not speaking of a singular point-in-time, but "TIMES OF," see).

            Acts 3:21 has no relation to Jesus' ascension. That was addressed in ch 1. Paul was making a statement about Jesus being received and retained in heaven until the restoration of all things.
            Not simply "until the restoration of all things," but as I said (it says), "until the TIMES of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age" (the things He expressed through His OT prophets; not the things He expressed through His NT "apostles and prophets" [<--which phrase, written in this order, always means NT apostles and prophets])


            Plain as day.

            I am interested in how you explain the "first resurrection" of Rev 20:5 as being part of a pre-trib rapture which includes another resurrection.
            "the resurrection OF LIFE" does not take place merely at one singular point-in-time (for example, the "2W" are resurrected at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe," at a point in time DISTINCT from when all OTHER saints will be--most ppl have no problem grasping this point). "But EACH [G1538] IN HIS OWN ORDER"...




            Back later (to elaborate on that last point ^ ), when I have more time (Lord willing). = )

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

              Incorrect. It says, "until the TIMES of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His Holy prophets from the age"
              Not a big deal. What do you think the "times of the restoration of all things" refers to? It should be obvious that the phrase refers to Christ's second Advent, when He returns to take over and rule the earth.

              ... which is what I am saying commences once He "DESCENDs" (to "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"... when we ['the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'] are "caught UP / -AWAY" to that location)... then the OT prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled commence to unfold in their "fulfillments" (not speaking of a singular point-in-time, but "TIMES OF," see).
              Sorry, but I am not following this. Part of the reason is this website includes all the bold, color, underline, and size markings, which should not be included. It's real hard to read the text. However, it seems you believe that Jesus Christ descends twice. Is that correct? And if so, where do you justify that idea? There are TWO advents, appropriately the FIRST and the SECOND.

              Not simply "until the restoration of all things," but as I said (it says), "until the TIMES of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age" (the things He expressed through His OT prophets; not the things He expressed through His NT "apostles and prophets" [<--which phrase, written in this order, always means NT apostles and prophets])
              I'll wait until you define what you think "restoration of all things" refers to.

              "the resurrection OF LIFE" does not take place merely at one singular point-in-time (for example, the "2W" are resurrected at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe," at a point in time DISTINCT from when all OTHER saints will be--most ppl have no problem grasping this point). "But EACH [G1538] IN HIS OWN ORDER"...
              I read claims but no evidence from Scripture. Could you include verses that say what you claim please?

              Comment


              • #97
                To go along with that post ^ :

                [quoting an older post of mine]

                There is MORE THAN ONE "HARVEST" in Scripture (and in nature). [note: this is not saying more than one RAPTURE]

                --WHEAT is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement)

                --ANOTHER [crop] (the earlier) is harvested by means of "tossing up into the AIR, and blowing away the chaff"


                There are TWO *distinct* "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23... the WHEAT is in the SECOND [mention] of these TWO references to "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23, namely in v.17 "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (which verse correlates with Rev14:4 re: "the 144,000" ['FIRSTFRUIT']).


                Also, James 1:18 says, "a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there is MORE THAN *ONE* "KIND" )




                *WE* ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/the "ONE BODY") are NOT "the WHEAT"

                [end quoting that post]

                ____________



                Paul goes to great lengths to inform US ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") that WE are "ONE BREAD/LOAF" and "UNleavened" (stated as "facts").

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                  To go along with that post ^ :

                  [quoting an older post of mine]

                  There is MORE THAN ONE "HARVEST" in Scripture (and in nature). [note: this is not saying more than one RAPTURE]

                  --WHEAT is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement)

                  --ANOTHER [crop] (the earlier) is harvested by means of "tossing up into the AIR, and blowing away the chaff"


                  There are TseWO *distinct* "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23... the WHEAT is in the SECOND [mention] of these TWO references to "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23, namely in v.17 "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (which verse correlates with Rev14:4 re: "the 144,000" ['FIRSTFRUIT']).

                  Also, James 1:18 says, "a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there is MORE THAN *ONE* "KIND" )

                  *WE* ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/the "ONE BODY") are NOT "the WHEAT"

                  [end quoting that post
                  ____________

                  Paul goes to great lengths to inform US ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") that WE are "ONE BREAD/LOAF" and "UNleavened" (stated as "facts").
                  Sorry, but I don't see how any of this addresses anything I posted.

                  This thread is about whether there are any verses that clearly indicate that Jesus returns to heaven with all resurrected saints. Are there, or not? That is the question.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                    [...] What do you think the "times of the restoration of all things" refers to? It should be obvious that the phrase refers to Christ's second Advent, when He returns to take over and rule the earth.
                    [...]
                    I'll wait until you define what you think "restoration of all things" refers to.
                    [...]
                    The word in Acts 3:21, "restoration" is G605... related to the word "G600 - restore" in Acts 1:6.

                    The "4 living creatures" (in the Rev4-5 scene we were discussing) have the same descriptions as the "4-directional plotment" of Israel in OT times... I believe these are related to the (earthly-located) governance of the earth... thus have something to do with this phrase "TIMES of restoration of all things of which God SPOKE BY the MOUTH OF HIS HOLY PROPHETS from the age" (commencing to unfold upon the earth at the START of the trib years [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], and coming to its full fruition at His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19... and involving especially the believing remnant of Israel... per verses such as Hos5:14-6:3 "in their affliction, they will seek Me EARLY" and Ezek37:12-14,20-23/39:7 "SO will *I* make My holy name known in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"... etc etc [early in the Trib yrs, I believe in the SECOND SEAL *wars* part, for this aspect... similar to what it says of Joseph in Gen45:1,6 when there were "yet five years" remaining in his "7 year famine" etc etc]).

                    Comment


                    • ^ ... so where Matt24:9 and Mk13:13 [and Mt10:22] say, "ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake," this is speaking [to/for/about/concerning] of "the believing remnant of Israel" (having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... during "the beginning of birth PANGS" which ARE the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the 7 trib yrs [with the FIRST SEAL being the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5 G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ('a certain one' bringing deception)]" at the ARRIVAL of the "DOTL" time-period which will unfold upon the earth with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME (i.e. SEAL #1 and following)])

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

                        The word in Acts 3:21, "restoration" is G605... related to the word "G600 - restore" in Acts 1:6.
                        Well, of course. In fact, the word "restoration" occurs in the verse.

                        The "4 living creatures" (in the Rev4-5 scene we were discussing) have the same descriptions as the "4-directional plotment" of Israel in OT times... I believe these are related to the (earthly-located) governance of the earth... thus have something to do with this phrase "TIMES of restoration of all things of which God SPOKE BY the MOUTH OF HIS HOLY PROPHETS from the age" (commencing to unfold upon the earth at the START of the trib years [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], and coming to its full fruition at His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19... and involving especially the believing remnant of Israel... per verses such as Hos5:14-6:3 "in their affliction, they will seek Me EARLY" and Ezek37:12-14,20-23/39:7 "SO will *I* make My holy name known in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"... etc etc [early in the Trib yrs, I believe in the SECOND SEAL *wars* part, for this aspect... similar to what it says of Joseph in Gen45:1,6 when there were "yet five years" remaining in his "7 year famine" etc etc]).
                        I couldn't find any period in your response, plus all the special commands imbedded in the response, really makes reading your posts difficult. Could you dispense with the bolds, colors, underlines, and the like so reading your comments isn't so difficult? If you aren't sure what I'm talking about, just click on the "quote" button of one of your own posts and you'll see what I'm talking about.

                        As to your reply, I see no relevance to the question posed in the title of this thread.

                        Are there any verses that make it clear that Jesus takes all resurrected saints to heaven? yes or no.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                          You apparently either believe that:
                          1. The assurance of the resurrection of Jesus is NOT found in the giving of the Holy Ghost, or
                          2. You believe that Jesus already had the gift of the Holy Ghost (getting that from the Father) when He first appeared (anistemi) to Mary Magdalene, when he clearly says that he has not ascended to the Father, where Peter says that is where he received the Holy Ghost.
                          What I believe is that the assurance of OUR resurrection is found in the fact of His resurrection.
                          The assurance that He is with the Father and that all authority has been given to Him is in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
                          These are TWO separate things, but the one is a witness to the other, for IF Jesus has ascended to the Father THEN it means He has been raised from the dead.
                          As for your point 2. that makes ZERO sense.
                          Why claim something I have NOT claimed? This is actually something YOU seem to be claiming as you conflate anistemi and anabaino, and as Jesus certainly was anistemi when He met Mary, so it is YOUR claim which is that Jesus ALREADY had the giving of the Holy Spirit when He met Mary. It is this INCORRECT claim which I am dealing with.

                          Jesus refused Mary's worship of him because he was not yet glorified. For John said that this was the means by which the Holy Ghost was to be given... he must be glorified first, John 7:39. As the other women, who were with Mary Magdalene, left the tomb to tell his disciples, we find this:
                          Mat 28:9 KJV And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
                          Jesus did NOT refuse Mary's worship, but He had things He had to do and Mary's clinging onto Him was stopping Him from doing what He was to do.

                          Jesus forbade them not to worship him indicating that he had now been glorified and thus received the Holy Ghost from the Father. In accordance with Paul, you are either claiming that he had the gifts of the Holy Ghost when Mary met him (because Jesus was already anistemi and had the assurance of the Holy Ghost Ghost with him already). On one hand, you are denying how Peter and Paul says that Jesus received the Holy Ghost (Acts 2, Eph 4) by the anabaino, (by saying that) he already had the Holy Ghost because he was anistemi, but not yet anabaino. On the other hand, you are foreboding the need (by the words of Jesus, John, Peter Paul) for Jesus to be glorified and receive the Holy Ghost from the Father, by the anabaino, because he already had gotten that assurance when he appeared to Mary and was already anistemi. . This contradicts the word of Jesus and Paul when they said it was necessary (behooved) Christ to anistemi and enter into his glory. Jesus and Paul said that Jesus receives glory, by the giving of the Holy Ghost to believers, because of the anistemi. You are holding onto a theological oxymoron.
                          It was fine to worship Jesus BEFORE He even died.
                          Anistemi is NOT about the assurance of the Holy Ghost ONLY anabaino is mentioned about that.
                          Where have I denied that Jesus was GIVING the Holy Spirit through anabaino? Nowhere!
                          Jesus Himself had the Holy Spirit, but was going to the Father to SEND the Holy Spirit to His body on earth.
                          You are the one totally misrepresenting and confusing things.
                          Anistemi and egeiro ONLY speak of rising from the dead and NOT about going to be with the Father or ascension.
                          Anabaino is about ascending to the Father.
                          You have YET to provide a SINGLE verse where anyone said that it was necessary to anistemi for Jesus to enter His glory. Now it is true Jesus had to DIE and then RISE from the dead BEFORE He would ascend to the Father. In that sense ONLY was it necessary for Jesus to egeiro before He could anabaino and so enter into His glory.
                          Neither Jesus or Paul said that the giving of the Holy Spirit is because of anistemi. Provide the verses which say this!
                          You are holding onto a false idea.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                            Well, of course. In fact, the word "restoration" occurs in the verse.

                            I couldn't find any period in your response, plus all the special commands imbedded in the response, really makes reading your posts difficult. Could you dispense with the bolds, colors, underlines, and the like so reading your comments isn't so difficult? If you aren't sure what I'm talking about, just click on the "quote" button of one of your own posts and you'll see what I'm talking about.

                            As to your reply, I see no relevance to the question posed in the title of this thread.
                            If you'll please recall, I jumped into this thread to address a particular point which [member] Pesachpup was mentioning in his Post #12.

                            In passing, and to make clear my position to him, I mentioned that I am "pre-trib". I was wondering whether or not he was making an "OVERALL point" for pre-trib, or not. As I could not tell.


                            It was here ^ that you asked me about my pre-trib viewpoint IN VIEW OF your "3 facts"... which I then addressed in part--where I endeavored to point out the distinctions re: His Second Coming TO THE EARTH and our Rapture IN THE AIR... which, if I can now bring attention to what you expressed in your "OP," you've blurred these together by your saying when "that He COMES TO EARTH to resurrect and rapture...," (your OP words)... but that is not what takes place when He "RETURNS"/COMES to the earth (Rev19 time-slot in the chronology).

                            At the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," He is not RETURNING/COMING *to the earth* to do that, see.



                            Are there any verses that make it clear that Jesus takes all resurrected saints to heaven? yes or no.
                            "Rapture" ("caught UP / -AWAY") pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--ALL those who come to faith "in this present age [singular]" --see Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]... It does NOT pertain to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods; not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints.

                            Thus, not ALL who are "resurrected" (like OT saints and Trib saints who DIE in the trib) are "RAPTURED"... They are "resurrected [meaning, 'to stand again'... on the earth]." Per Dan12:13; per Job19:25-27; per Jn11:24; per Rev20:4b; etc--all re: "resurrection ['to stand again' ON THE EARTH]". This means that the OT saints, and the Trib saints who DIE in the trib, are "resurrected" (at the END of the trib) "to stand again [ON THE EARTH]" FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [-age];

                            They've not been promised "Rapture ['caught UP / -AWAY'... IN THE AIR]".

                            They will be PRESENT [as ALL "saints" of ALL time periods will be] FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom--that is, ON THE EARTH. That's what they are "resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]" FOR ...at the END of the trib yrs.

                            So, to answer your question in this quoted post of yours, NO... NOT ALL "resurrected" ppl/saints are "RAPTURED"--which event pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--that is, ALL those "saved" "in this present age [singular]"--and which is to a specific PURPOSE.



                            Hope this helps you see my perspective. = )

                            Comment


                            • ^ ETA: ... I've not made the point that "ALL RESURRECTED SAINTS" are taken to heaven.

                              Some "resurrected" saints will be (ONLY those of "the Church which is His body"--ALL those "saved" in this present age [singular] who will have DIED by the time of our Rapture, along with the "we which are ALIVE and remaining unto" [members of the Body] at the time of our Rapture... who will NEVER have DIED, thus not in need of "RESURRECTION" in that sense);

                              Others saints (those having come to faith at OTHER time-periods: OT and Trib yrs) will be "resurrected" to stand again on the earth (FOR the earthly MK age--in time FOR THAT--that is, "resurrected" after the Trib, FOR the earthly MK age)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                                The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
                                1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
                                15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


                                descend from heaven
                                The Lord descends from heaven, but do his feet touch the ground?

                                meet the Lord in the air
                                apparently not. The Lord descends from heaven as far as the clouds. His followers rise to meet him there, in the clouds.

                                Comment

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