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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    It was here ^ that you asked me about my pre-trib viewpoint IN VIEW OF your "3 facts"... which I then addressed in part--where I endeavored to point out the distinctions re: His Second Coming TO THE EARTH and our Rapture IN THE AIR... which, if I can now bring attention to what you expressed in your "OP," you've blurred these together by your saying when "that He COMES TO EARTH to resurrect and rapture...," (your OP words)... but that is not what takes place when He "RETURNS"/COMES to the earth (Rev19 time-slot in the chronology).

    At the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," He is not RETURNING/COMING *to the earth* to do that, see.
    Again, the point of this thead is for those who believe in a pre-Trib rapture BACK TO HEAVEN, provide Scriptural evidence of that. That is the only issue.

    "Rapture" ("caught UP / -AWAY") pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--ALL those who come to faith "in this present age [singular]" --see Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]... It does NOT pertain to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods; not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints.
    Again, what verse(s) says Jesus will resurrect (rapture) the saints and take them back to heaven? This is the sole issue.

    Thus, not ALL who are "resurrected" (like OT saints and Trib saints who DIE in the trib) are "RAPTURED"... They are "resurrected [meaning, 'to stand again'... on the earth]." Per Dan12:13; per Job19:25-27; per Jn11:24; per Rev20:4b; etc--all re: "resurrection ['to stand again' ON THE EARTH]". This means that the OT saints, and the Trib saints who DIE in the trib, are "resurrected" (at the END of the trib) "to stand again [ON THE EARTH]" FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [-age];
    But...since Rev 20:5 specifically calls the post-trip resurrection the FIRST RESURRECTION, your view is forced to split the "first" resurrection into two. Not buying.

    They've not been promised "Rapture ['caught UP / -AWAY'... IN THE AIR]".
    The only meaning of being 'caught up' is that belivers will join Jesus in the air. This doesn't prove or even mean 'being taken back to heaven'.

    They will be PRESENT [as ALL "saints" of ALL time periods will be] FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom--that is, ON THE EARTH. That's what they are "resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]" FOR ...at the END of the trib yrs.
    Your attempt at splitting saved OT and Trib saints from the CHURCH is artificial.

    1 Cor 15:23 says - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

    So, here's the point. EVERY believer in the Messiah, whether OT saint, CHURCH, or Trib saint, ALL BELONG to Him. So the verse proves that the FIRST (and only) resurrection will occur for ALL OF THEM when He comes (second advent), since ALL of them belong to Him.

    So, to answer your question in this quoted post of yours, NO... NOT ALL "resurrected" ppl/saints are "RAPTURED"--which event pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--that is, ALL those "saved" "in this present age [singular]"--and which is to a specific PURPOSE.
    I believe 1 Cor 15:23 clears it all up.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

      1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
      15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


      descend from heaven
      The Lord descends from heaven, but do his feet touch the ground?

      meet the Lord in the air
      apparently not. The Lord descends from heaven as far as the clouds. His followers rise to meet him there, in the clouds.
      Now, once His followers rise to meet Him in the air, where do they all go from there? Back to heaven, or back to earth? That is what this thread addresses. Thanks.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
        Now, once His followers rise to meet Him in the air, where do they all go from there? Back to heaven, or back to earth? That is what this thread addresses. Thanks.
        You are completely correct.
        The question is WHICH direction of travel happens NEXT.
        Is it UP as those in Christ have gone up? This is what Pre-Trib suggests with a single scriptural reference of the a supposed connection with Rev 4:1.
        Is it DOWN as Christ was coming down? This is what Post-Trib suggests and this is based on multiple scriptural references not least Acts 1:8.

        The way to answer this question is do we have ANY other verses which speak of this SAME event, and from which we can get an answer?
        For me there are many, such as 1 Cor 15:52, which also makes a connection with Matt 24:31, which of course then connects with Rev 19 and elsewhere.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
          You are completely correct.
          The question is WHICH direction of travel happens NEXT.
          Since there are no verses that support the pre-Trib rapture back up to heaven, and no verses about Jesus taking any resurrected saints up to heaven, I believe all so-called rapture passages are descriptions of the Second Coming of Christ. So, the answer is "back to earth", where Jesus sets up His Millennial Kingdom.

          Is it UP as those in Christ have gone up? This is what Pre-Trib suggests with a single scriptural reference of the a supposed connection with Rev 4:1.
          Here's the verse: " After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

          Seems clear to me that John is being addressed. And being told to come up to heaven for the revelations of what's coming. I don't see any connection to a rapture.

          Is it DOWN as Christ was coming down? This is what Post-Trib suggests and this is based on multiple scriptural references not least Acts 1:8.
          Don't forget Acts 3:21. Most translations say something on the order of "He must be received in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything"

          However, the Greek word for "receive" according to my lexicon, means "to receive and retain, contain". Several translations say "He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything". Sounds to me as though the verse means that Jesus will stay in heaven until the Second Coming. Therefore, no pre-Trib rapture.

          Also, Rev 19:5 speaks of a post Trib resurrection and calls it the "first resurrection". That creates a huge problem for any resurrection prior to that.

          And consider 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

          Yes, Christ is the first to be resurrected, but this verse describes it as "the firstfruits", and then "those who belong to HIm", which would be ALL saints, from both OT and NT. So Rev 19:5 reveals that there is just one resurrection, which is post-Trib.

          The way to answer this question is do we have ANY other verses which speak of this SAME event, and from which we can get an answer?
          See above.

          For me there are many, such as 1 Cor 15:52, which also makes a connection with Matt 24:31, which of course then connects with Rev 19 and elsewhere.
          Yep. I typed in a smiley face, and all I get is a question mark.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CadyandZoe View Post

            1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
            15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


            descend from heaven
            The Lord descends from heaven, but do his feet touch the ground?

            meet the Lord in the air
            apparently not. The Lord descends from heaven as far as the clouds. His followers rise to meet him there, in the clouds.
            The second coming is not finished at the time of the rapture. He fights at Armageddon in the air as well but lower than the clouds because he is visible but at some point he will stand on the ground as we see him standing on Mount Zion. He will also rule from Jerusalem during the thousand years which includes sitting on a throne.

            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

              The second coming is not finished at the time of the rapture.
              If by "rapture" is meant a pre-Trib gathering of all resurrected saints back to heaven, where is that evidence?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                If by "rapture" is meant a pre-Trib gathering of all resurrected saints back to heaven, where is that evidence?
                Paul only wrote of a post-trib rapture. I'm saying there is more to the second coming after the rapture is completed.

                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                  [Attempting to respond to one particular point being made in Post #12 by Pesachpup... but having trouble with the "Quote" feature freezing up... I've skimmed through this thread, but I admit I am unsure what "OVERALL point" that Pesachpup is endeavoring to make (possibly a "pre-trib" point?? [I am "pre-trib," by the way])... I agree Jesus "ascended" ON the very day of His Resurrection / ON "Firstfruit" per Lev23:10-12... but I'm disagreeing with some of the ways you/Pesachpup are addressing some of the issues, meaning, the points being made... which is why I popped on here... but am experiencing trouble with POSTING... let me see if this goes through... my apologies for this being somewhat of a curt posting ... I would have liked to have quoted the line in your Post #12 that I'm pin-pointing...]

                  Here's a post I made some time back about the phrasing in 1Th4:17 -


                  [quoting that post]

                  We (provided we're the "ALIVE and remain" / still-living at the time) are NOT said to "go up there and meet THEM where they've already been 'caught up' PRIOR to us being 'caught up'..." . No, the TEXT STATES that we will be "caught up TOGETHER [G260]" (meaning, the verb-action for both happens AT THE SAME TIME).


                  [from BibleHub, under the word "together [G260]" in that verse]

                  "In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([meaning/defined as] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb."

                  [end quoting BibleHub]

                  ____________

                  That is fairly simple.

                  That means, where it says they "rise first," that means, "'to stand again' on the earth" (before we are then "caught up TOGETHER")... though I do not believe this necessitates that any others (the unsaved) will be able to "SEE" them... just like the "Proto-Type" of Jesus' Resurrection Body (His Body, after His Resurrection... which seemed to have unusual characteristics, like when he "VANISHED out of their sight," etc--oh, and that He ONLY appeared to carefully chosen witnesses, not to EVERYONE)

                  [end quoting old post]

                  ____________



                  Hope that helps... So, while I *do* believe Jesus' "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" Jn20:17 took place some "40 days" BEFORE His LATER Acts 1:11 *VISIBLE* "went up / taken up from you into Heaven"... I think this is a different issue from the words used for being resurrected/resurrection or rise or raise/raised, etc... (hope that makes sense... and hope this posts okay = D )
                  I'm sorry that I have not addressed this sooner. I was preoccupied in discussion with FHG. I hadn't noticed it until we had gotten to page 8. I'm not sure what particular thing you had in mind, but I will start with what I think is one of your points, my addressing things from a different perspective. I [wasn't] really giving credence to the Pre-Trib viewpoint as [much as] I was trying to address something that is a different aspect of 1 Thes 4, [and] that [is] of Paul's use of the word anistemi.

                  I feel like Paul addresses one issue. And then, to provide clarity, (a clearer picture), he brings in the element responsible [for their errant belief] (because it is missing from their understanding) necessary to correcting the issue at the forefront. So let me begin.

                  At the forefront, is the exclusion (even if it is probably just [only] out of order); at issue is the excluding of the dead in Christ [from being] at his coming. For he brings that point to the forefront by saying (paraphrasing) don't grieve for those that sleep in Jesus as if they do not have hope in [the resurrection], as only the living "would" have at his coming. He is saying that they are not without hope, even though, the timing of that hope might/ would be deferred to a future time... after his coming. Do you get what I'm saying?

                  He further brings this to the forefront by saying, "We who are alive and remain unto his coming..." .... by saying that the living would not precede those who are already dead at that time. [<-- this is the errant belief that he is addressing]

                  1Th 4:15 KJV For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

                  He [further] preceded that by saying that God will bring with him, those that sleep in Jesus. Let me focus on the middle part of verse 15, "we who are alive and remain...". Do you see how the "dead in Christ" are excluded here? Their misguided view seems to reflect the notion that Christ is coming TO THE EARTH for to redeem them [ONLY the living] . Their redemption, and by that i mean [would be accomplished by] the glorification of their bodies into the immortal, incorruptible flesh. (More on this point in just a minute). So let me reiterate Paul's words here, when he says, "We who are alive and remain unto the coming of Jesus..."

                  Paul's preface is, "If we believe that Jesus died and rose/ anistemi! [emphasize anistemi] again..."If we believe that Jesus ascended to the Father (on the 3rd day)... GOD will bring the dead in Christ with him". The ascension of Jesus to the Father, after he had met Mary Magdalene, was the means by which Jesus was glorified. He refused Mary's worship because he was not yet glorified. The giving of the Holy Ghost was the evidence of Jesus's glorification, John 7:39. When Jesus met the women a little while later, Matt 28, he welcomed, actually he encouraged it, for Jesus said, "All Hail"... they held him by the feet and worshipped him". Jesus was glorified, on the 3rd day, BECAUSE he had ascended to the Father. So this is the missing element that Paul is bringing into the discussion. Their misguided notion was that the dead in Christ were (temporarily? ) left out of their glorification [at that time]. When Paul used the phrase , "by the word of the Lord", he is referring back to something that they were already aware of that the Lord had said. What are those words that he is referring to? I believe [them] to be when Jesus said, "He that endures to the end (ALIVE!) shall be saved. I can see where this leads to the exclusion of the dead in Christ at his coming. In essence, this led then to believe that "their salvation/ glorification" would come with Jesus's arrival back to earth [by failing to recognize the role of the anistemi]. Paul is saying that the same way that Jesus was glorified is the same way that you shall be glorified... by ascending/ anistemi TO the Father. Here it is in black & white:

                  1Th 4:14 KJV For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [Paul is carrying forward (to Christ's coming), those in Paul's day who were currently believers by saying "if WE believe...", WE will rise too!]

                  This is where people miss it. The dead in Christ are not without hope (and neither are the living). God the Father will bring with him/JESUS, those who sleep in Jesus. The means of our glorification is the anistemi. If we believe that Jesus ascended to the Father for his glorification, even so will they too, will ascend to the Father for their glorification. This is why Paul says that the dead in Christ, as well as those who are alive and remain unto the coming of Christ (he used the word parousia) must, and not just "will" rise to the Father too. Glorification of the body, must be preceded by rising/ anistemi to the Father must as Jesus showed us the example.

                  Jesus showed them, in advance, of how our glorification will take place...by the anistemi. Where, did he show them? Not only did he show them on the mount of transfiguration, when he was transfiguration BEFORE them. As is pointed out in Mark 9, Jesus said,

                  Mar 9:9-10 KJV 9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen (anistemi) from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

                  The disciples didn't know what Jesus meant by anistemi UNTIL AFTER he was risen, both egeiro and anistemi. I include risen/ egeiro (in the previous sentence) only because they didn't see him until after he had ascended to the Father. The point is that the transfiguration of our bodies will also occur because we will ascend to glorification in like manner as Jesus did. I won't address it this particular post (at length), but when Paul said the dead in Christ shall rise first...He was not speaking of egeiro, but again he uses the word anistemi. He could have used egeiro instead of anistemi and this would undoubtedly be referring to the physical act of resurrection that preceded Christ's anistemi. But he didn't. He is drawing attention to the necessity of glorification by means of the anistemi. I'm not disagreeing that they will not be egeiro at that time, (I could present that argument in a forthcoming post), but, for Paul to use egeiro, at that moment, would detract from the point that he was making (that we ALL) shall rise/anistemi to the Father for our glorification. I would pre-summarize that argument about the timing of the egeiro of our bodies, by simply saying that there are undeclared time constraints found within 1 Thes 4. Does this make things clearer?

                  Be Blessed
                  The PuP

                  P.s. The credence that I give to pre-trib here is found in nullifying the post-trib belief that the saints only join Jesus in his descent from heaven, bypassing the need to go to heaven for our glorification.
                  Last edited by Pesachpup; Jan 16 2021, 03:41 AM. Reason: Added p.s. and thought clarifications

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

                    Paul only wrote of a post-trib rapture.
                    True. But what verse from Paul indicates it is post-trib?

                    I'm saying there is more to the second coming after the rapture is completed.
                    Well, of course. Jesus comes to earth, ends the attack on Israel and the tribulation, and sets up His Kingdom on earth. What did I miss?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                      The disciples didn't know what Jesus meant by anistemi UNTIL AFTER he was risen, both egeiro and anistemi. I include risen/ egeiro (in the previous sentence) only because they didn't see him until after he had ascended to the Father.
                      I totally "get" what you are trying to say (in your entire post), but I still reject it (for several reasons... I already named some in my previous post... the one you quoted, esp. the fact that the word "TOGETHER [the ADVERB]" must be attached to "caught up [the VERB]"... meaning, we are "caught up AT THE SAME TIME with them [/caught up at the same time that they are also caught up (i.e. AS ONE... the ONE BODY... distinct from how those in Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 are 'gathered' AFTER the trib, 'ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel' [at the 'GREAT' trumpet... and 'TO... Jerusalem'])]"

                      I'll have to come back later to address a number of other issues I have with your idea (for example, why 1Cor15:1-23 [the BASIS of our salvation] does not mention the word "anistemi" at all; and why is this word at times accompanied by the phrase "FROM THE DEAD"?; and I've pointed out in past posts how the "Amill-teachings" miss the point Peter is making in Acts 3 because they miss the TWO [distinct] "RAISE" issues being spoken of in this text [one BEFORE His death, the other AFTER His death on the Cross])


                      But I quoted the above portion of your post because I wonder how you [in view of what you've put] would see the following text (for example):

                      "And afterward, as they were reclining, He appeared to the eleven and rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those having seen Him arisen/egeiró [G1453]." - Mark 16:14

                      --why would He "rebuke them" for their UNBELIEF and hardness of heart...(for THIS)?

                      --obviously a number of other ppl/other disciples of Him (besides "the 11") saw Him before this scene [Jesus with the eleven/after His "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" earlier that day], and had told them [/the eleven], but they did not believe them (but why wouldn't this verse say, instead, "those having seen Him after He was 'anistemi,' [ascended to heaven, as you are defining it]," if that were the important thing they were to "understand" now/at this point. Yet it does not say that. And He's "rebuking" them.)

                      --another verse states, "Therefore when He was raised up/egeiró [G1453] out from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken." John 2:22 (referring to "the temple of His body")... so at some point (after His resurrection) they remember what Jesus had said about "the temple of His body" and its being "[in three days] raise it up again [/egeiró - G1453]" per v.19... meaning, this is something they did not "get" till afterwards (after it took place). Why skip past this and only look at His "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" (that very day, Jn20:17) as the thing they did not "grasp"??



                      ...back later to address another post, and the other parts of your post re: the dead in Christ and Paul's objective in addressing this (1Th4), when I have more time (Lord willing = ) )



                      I'm sorry that I have not addressed this sooner. I was preoccupied in discussion with FHG. I hadn't noticed it until we had gotten to page 8.
                      No need to be sorry... I understand completely... (I'm never in a rush in my expectation of responses from people)... I myself sometimes take weeks to get a reply out... *wince* = P (and that's aside from the fact that I am a painfully sloooowww typist, and that it physically pains me to type. lol)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

                        I totally "get" what you are trying to say (in your entire post), but I still reject it (for several reasons... I already named some in my previous post... the one you quoted, esp. the fact that the word "TOGETHER [the ADVERB]" must be attached to "caught up [the VERB]"... meaning, we are "caught up AT THE SAME TIME with them [/caught up at the same time that they are also caught up (i.e. AS ONE... the ONE BODY... distinct from how those in Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 are 'gathered' AFTER the trib, 'ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel' [at the 'GREAT' trumpet... and 'TO... Jerusalem'])]"

                        I'll have to come back later to address a number of other issues I have with your idea (for example, why 1Cor15:1-23 [the BASIS of our salvation] does not mention the word "anistemi" at all; and why is this word at times accompanied by the phrase "FROM THE DEAD"?; and I've pointed out in past posts how the "Amill-teachings" miss the point Peter is making in Acts 3 because they miss the TWO [distinct] "RAISE" issues being spoken of in this text [one BEFORE His death, the other AFTER His death on the Cross])


                        But I quoted the above portion of your post because I wonder how you [in view of what you've put] would see the following text (for example):

                        "And afterward, as they were reclining, He appeared to the eleven and rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those having seen Him arisen/egeiró [G1453]." - Mark 16:14

                        --why would He "rebuke them" for their UNBELIEF and hardness of heart...(for THIS)?

                        --obviously a number of other ppl/other disciples of Him (besides "the 11") saw Him before this scene [Jesus with the eleven/after His "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" earlier that day], and had told them [/the eleven], but they did not believe them (but why wouldn't this verse say, instead, "those having seen Him after He was 'anistemi,' [ascended to heaven, as you are defining it]," if that were the important thing they were to "understand" now/at this point. Yet it does not say that. And He's "rebuking" them.)

                        --another verse states, "Therefore when He was raised up/egeiró [G1453] out from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken." John 2:22 (referring to "the temple of His body")... so at some point (after His resurrection) they remember what Jesus had said about "the temple of His body" and its being "[in three days] raise it up again [/egeiró - G1453]" per v.19... meaning, this is something they did not "get" till afterwards (after it took place). Why skip past this and only look at His "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" (that very day, Jn20:17) as the thing they did not "grasp"??



                        ...back later to address another post, and the other parts of your post re: the dead in Christ and Paul's objective in addressing this (1Th4), when I have more time (Lord willing = ) )





                        No need to be sorry... I understand completely... (I'm never in a rush in my expectation of responses from people)... I myself sometimes take weeks to get a reply out... *wince* = P (and that's aside from the fact that I am a painfully sloooowww typist, and that it physically pains me to type. lol)
                        I am not following your first point. Let's put the events in order.
                        1,2&3. Christ descends, archangel sounds, Trumpet.
                        #4. Dead in Christ rise, anistemi &/or egeiro.
                        #5. Living caught up to then.
                        #6. Rapture saints, living and dead, are now together with Christ.

                        Somehow, are you thinking that I'm saying that the living do not join the dead [together] with Christ? I'm not saying that at all. There is most likely a (how much) time issue involved, but not a logistical issue of then being joined together. Is this on track?

                        Ok, next point. Again here is the order that I'm presenting/ promoting.

                        1. Jesus arose/ egeiro, BEFORE the women came to the tomb at daybreak.
                        2. Peter and John go to the tomb, but don't see Jesus. Go home.
                        3. Mary Magdalene goes to tomb & sees Jesus, who was only egeiro, before his ascension to the Father.
                        4. Jesus ascends to the Father, Now he is anistemi and egeiro.
                        5. Jesus appears to the other women. They worship the glorified and ascended Christ.
                        6. Jesus appears to the 2 Emmaus disciples in another form... again, after the anistemi and egeiro.
                        7. The other women (not Mary Magdalene) tell the disciples that they had seen Jesus, egeiro & anistemi.
                        8. The 2 Emmaus disciples tell the apostles, that they had seen Jesus. He is risen, egeiro and anistemi.
                        9. That same hour, Jesus appeared to the "eleven", after he was egeiro and anistemi.
                        10. Jesus rebukes them (apostles) for not believing those who had seen him after he was egeiro.

                        If Mark had said that they were rebuked for not believing those who had seen him after he was anistemi, rather then egeiro, would that be true for Mary Magdalene? No it wouldn't. Yes, Jesus was egeiro when Mary met him, but he wasn't yet anistemi. Do you still have a problem with what I'm saying?

                        Last point. I will be brief, even tho I could present much here. Again another chronology of events.

                        1. Jesus told them about the sign of Jonas being 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth, Matt 12:38ff, Mark 8:11,12. (A sign from heaven!).
                        2. Jesus tells them about the sign of Jonas, again, Matthew 16:1-4.
                        3. Peter confesses that Jesus is the Christ, Matt 16:16 and Mark 8:29.
                        4. Jesus BEGAN to teach them about his egeiro AND anistemi. Matt 16:21. - egeiro, Mark 8 31 - anistemi.
                        5. Disciples continue to NOT understand what Jesus means by the anistemi, until Jesus is anistemi and appears to them after he is egeiro and anistemi. Mark 9:10; Mark 9:32; Luke 18:34.
                        6. Jesus opened their understanding, Luke 24:31.

                        Even going to see the empty tomb, Peter did not understand things. But John did... when he understood the scripture that says that Jesus would rise again, anistemi,

                        Joh 20:9 KJV For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

                        Jesus didn't teach his disciples about his betrayal, crucifixion, egeiro and anistemi, until after Peter's confession. This means that the sign of Jonas being 3 days and nights in the earth has absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus, nor anything Jesus said prior to Peter's confession.

                        I will stop here.

                        Be Blessed
                        The PuP

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post

                          I am not following your first point. Let's put the events in order.
                          1,2&3. Christ descends, archangel sounds, Trumpet.
                          #4. Dead in Christ rise, anistemi &/or egeiro.
                          #5. Living caught up to then.
                          #6. Rapture saints, living and dead, are now together with Christ.
                          So far, so good. Now, where does Jesus take them? If back to heaven, then please provide any verse that makes that clear. Thanks.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                            So far, so good. Now, where does Jesus take them? If back to heaven, then please provide any verse that makes that clear. Thanks.
                            I already have. Here it is again.

                            1Th 3:13 KJV To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness BEFORE GOD, even our FATHER, AT. the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL his SAINTS.

                            If you choose to say that it doesn't satisfy your criteria, you are going to have to explain this verse. Otherwise, I am going to repeat it, until you do so, or quit asking.

                            Be Blessed
                            The PuP

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post

                              I am not following your first point. Let's put the events in order.
                              1,2&3. Christ descends, archangel sounds, Trumpet.
                              #4. Dead in Christ rise, anistemi &/or egeiro.
                              #5. Living caught up to then.

                              #6. Rapture saints, living and dead, are now together with Christ.

                              Somehow, are you thinking that I'm saying that the living do not join the dead [together] with Christ? I'm not saying that at all.
                              No, I'm not suggesting you are saying that.

                              I'm saying that your idea is being negated by the wording found in this text. Your "order" is not correct (if I'm reading your numbers 4 & 5 correctly).

                              What you are saying is that the "dead in Christ SHALL ASCEND [TO THE AIR / TO HEAVEN] first" (#4) and "THEN" (#5) "we which are ALIVE and remaining" (at that same time-frame) will THEREAFTER be "caught UP *to where they already [now] are IN THE AIR* where they *rose/ascended* FIRST (#4) before we JOIN THEM THERE (#5)"...

                              ...but this exactly NOT what the text is conveying... because of what I am pointing out about the ADVERB ("together [G260]")... this word MUST BE joined TO THE VERB ("caught up [/harpazo G726]")



                              Perhaps it would be more clear (what I'm pointing out) if I phrase the "harpazo" word (in this sentence) by using its equivalent (a substitute word, to aid in "picturing" what I'm pointing out)... so like this,

                              "the dead in Christ shall rise [anistemi; G450; be resurrected, 'to stand again' on the earth] first: THEN we which are ALIVE and remaining shall be SNATCHED-AWAY TOGETHER [/'SNATCHED' AT THE SAME TIME as them] with [G4862 - syn - united-with] them in the clouds TO/UNTO the MEETING OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*..."

                              (IOW, they do not arrive up there before the other, but AT THE SAME TIME as the other... because "SNATCH" for both occurs "TOGETHER/AT THE SAME TIME"--the "SNATCH-ACTION" [not the MEETING, which follows the (singular) "SNATCH-ACTION"]... so they are not "SNATCHED FIRST" before we are THEN "SNATCHED" separately from them (tho arriving at the same location, same time-slot), but "SNATCH TOGETHER"... "SNATCHED AWAY [VERB-ACTION] TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME PRECISE MOMENT THAT THEY ARE ALSO "SNATCHED AWAY" (ONE SINGULAR "SNATCH-ACTION"--all together in the same motion... I'm not here referring to the location-destination, but to the "SNATCH-action" itself)]")


                              Make sense?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                                True. But what verse from Paul indicates it is post-trib?
                                He places the rapture after the second coming and resurrection of the dead, both take place after the trib has ended.

                                1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
                                1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
                                1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
                                1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
                                1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

                                Well, of course. Jesus comes to earth, ends the attack on Israel and the tribulation, and sets up His Kingdom on earth. What did I miss?
                                Well, the only attack against Israel is after the thousand years and it's really an attack just on Jerusalem. Before the second coming Jerusalem, and I assume all Israel, is inhabited by the AC and his people and armies but that was accomplished peacefully.


                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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