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What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

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  • VCOrv
    replied
    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    How arrogant!! If Keraz can't understand the "mystery", why should anyone thnk that YOU can?


    Paul just explained this "mystery" in plain language. So there's NO mystery now. Anyone can understand it.


    Not without the Holy Spirit in him.


    1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (HCSB)
    12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who ⌊comes⌋ from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God.
    13 We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
    14 But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.


    2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
    3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
    4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”


    His kind has always been here. Just in increasing numbers now that we are near the END. Ignore him.


    t t t
    Titus 2:13

    VCOrv

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  • VCOrv
    replied
    Originally posted by Keraz View Post
    Typical for those pushing a false theory, those without any real proof for what they believe.

    Casting aspersions on my intelligence and saying I have a lack of understanding.

    The fact is: I feel sorry for those who have been taught there will be a 'rapture to heaven'. It leaves you 'in the dark' about what will actually happen.
    If only you could see what the Lord does intend for His people, you would be prepared to go through what must take place.


    I don't! It gives me GREAT JOY, it Motivates me to tell others, I bubble over with excitement, this is not my Home, I am a citizen of Heaven, etc., etc.

    Ephesians 6:17-20 (NKJV)
    17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
    18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--
    19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,
    20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

    Philippians 3:20-21 (NASB)
    20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.



    t t t
    Titus 2:13

    VCOrv

    Leave a comment:


  • FreeGrace
    replied
    Originally posted by VCOrv View Post
    And if it was easy enough for you to understand, then it would not be a Mystery, would it.
    How arrogant!! If Keraz can't understand the "mystery", why should anyone thnk that YOU can?

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (ASV)
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    Paul just explained this "mystery" in plain language. So there's NO mystery now. Anyone can understand it.

    Leave a comment:


  • FreeGrace
    replied
    Originally posted by VCOrv View Post
    One more thing that I want you to KNOW.

    How do tell the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming in SCRIPTURE.
    There isn't really anything different. From Rev 20:1-5 we find that the martyred Tribulation saints are in the "first resurrection". That proves that there isn't a PRE-"first" resurrection. That would be quite silly.

    Comparing the Second Advent verses with the supposed pre-trib 'rapture' verses, the commonality is more than the differences. In both, there is a trumpet, in both there is a resurrection and gathering.

    The Rapture happens so fast it is referred to as a twinkling of an eye.
    Actually, you are misreading 1 Cor 15;52. The living believers are CHANGED in the twinkling of an eye. Not the gathering.

    That is such a small particle of one second it cannot be measured.
    irrelevant.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (ASV)
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    See? I told you. It's the CHANGING that occurs quickly. Not the gathering.

    Now the Second Coming, Happens so SLOWLY, there is time for the WORLD's Armies to try gather to do battle with HIM.
    Well, this is a real misunderstanding of the whole event. Yes, the world's armies to take time go gather. So what? Jesus comes back AFTER they have already gathered, so your point is moot. It doesn't matter.

    Why do you think the length of time for the armies to gather has ANYTHING to do with the speed of Jesus' return? There is no relationship.

    Leave a comment:


  • Keraz
    replied
    Originally posted by VCOrv View Post



    And if it was easy enough for you to understand, then it would not be a Mystery, would it.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (ASV)
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Ephesians 1:9-10 (ESV)
    9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
    10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.


    Perhaps this is your problem:

    1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NIV)
    12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
    13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
    14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
    16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
    Typical for those pushing a false theory, those without any real proof for what they believe.

    Casting aspersions on my intelligence and saying I have a lack of understanding.

    The fact is: I feel sorry for those who have been taught there will be a 'rapture to heaven'. It leaves you 'in the dark' about what will actually happen.
    If only you could see what the Lord does intend for His people, you would be prepared to go through what must take place.

    Leave a comment:


  • VCOrv
    replied
    Originally posted by Keraz View Post

    Well; you have yet to post a scripture that says the Lord will take His people to live in heaven.

    Our destiny and our great privilege:

    The issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study this belief. So believers in that idea cannot just assume that a rapture will happen.

    They say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven, to avoid any hardships and testing to come.
    I have a list of 25 scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath.

    What people should consider, is what does God want of us Christians? What is our destiny?
    Jesus gave us a Commission; to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
    Will He say: Nah, don't need to bother any more, come up here and do harp practice! Let the ungodly stew in their own juice.

    NO; we are His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16, also Ezekiel 39:27
    THAT is our task, our destiny and our great privilege.


    And if it was easy enough for you to understand, then it would not be a Mystery, would it.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (ASV)
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Ephesians 1:9-10 (ESV)
    9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
    10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.


    Perhaps this is your problem:

    1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NIV)
    12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
    13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
    14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
    16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.



    t t t
    Titus 2:13

    VCOrv

    Leave a comment:


  • VCOrv
    replied
    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    I don't care how you describe it, the only point of this thread is what VERSES say that Jesus takes the "gathered/raptured/caught up" believers back to heaven.

    That's the pre-trib view. Do you have any such verses?

    Great! Finally I'll see the evidence.


    When I ask for verses, providing them is NOT "pushing them down someone's throat". I do want to see your evidence. But why wait? What will that accomplish? Why not now in this post?


    I fully understand the rapture. What I am quite interested in are verses that make clear that Jesus takes the resurrected and raptured (changed) believers up to heaven.


    That is the ONLY WAY to do it! Looking forward to it.

    JESUS WILL Have His ARCHANGEL CALL OUT HIS BRIDE FROM HER OLD DWELLING PLACE.

    That is right in the Jewish Marraige Traditions. The Bridegroom has to choose a member of his wedding Party to go to call out HIS BRIDE out of her old dwelling place. Neither Christ or HIS Archangel, cannot enter the old dwelling Place, he has to SHOUT the wedding Call outside the House. There will be a SHOUT (with the voice of the Archangel - Probably a booming VOICE), then there will be a Trumpet Blast, Long and Loud. Here is what I believe the Trumpet Blast will sound like:



    That video makes me cry every time I hear it.

    Anyhow, the Shout Comes First, then the TRUMPET, and we are out of here.




    Matthew 25:1-13

    1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went to wait for the bridegroom.
    2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
    3 The five foolish bridesmaids took their lamps, but they did not take more oil for the lamps to burn.
    4 The wise bridesmaids took their lamps and more oil in jars.
    5 Because the bridegroom was late, they became sleepy and went to sleep.
    6 “At midnight someone cried out,The bridegroom is coming! Come and meet him!’
    7 Then all the bridesmaids woke up and got their lamps ready.
    8 But the foolish ones said to the wise, ’Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
    9 The wise bridesmaids answered, ’No, the oil we have might not be enough for all of us. Go to the people who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
    10 “So while the five foolish bridesmaids went to buy oil, the bridegroom came. The bridesmaids who
    were ready went in with the bridegroom to the wedding feast. Then the door was closed and locked.
    11 “Later the others came back and said, ’Sir, sir, open the door to let us in.’
    12 But the bridegroom answered, ’I tell you the truth, I don’t want to know you.’
    13 So always be ready,
    because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.


    JESUS told People almost 2000 Years Ago that PROPHECY, so HE wanted HIS BRIDE ready to GO to HEAVEN from that DAY ON.

    And according to HIM only 2 days has past.


    2 Peter 3:8-10 (HCSB)
    8 Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
    9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
    10 But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that ⌊day⌋ the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.



    There is another expression that is cannected to a Jewish Wedding. It was Part of a Wedding to STEAL THE BRIDE AWAY, Unexpectedly!
    Hence, ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS WHEN THE 7 Day WEDDING CEREMONY WILL START, because HE HAS THE FINAL SAY SO, when the NEW Dwelling Place was FINISHED. So at the moment the FATHER ANNOUNCED "The new dwelling place is FINISHED, Go get your BRIDE!"


    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (HCSB)
    13 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who have no hope.
    14 Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
    15 For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from
    17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
    18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.


    Caught Up is were we get the word RAPTURE, it is RAPTURO in the Latin. If everything up till then has been following the Jewish Wedding Customs, then it makes sense the heavens will a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. And the Wedding will be in the GROOM's FATHER's HOUSE, according to TRADITION.


    So what makes me think it HAS TO BE PRE-TRIB?

    The Scripture says they have to BE READY, from when HE inspired the words So always be ready, but immediately HE says right behind that, because you don’t know the day.

    Do you know that Every single DAY is accounted for after The Antichrist signs the PEACE TREATY with Israel; INCLUDING the DAY of HIS SECOND COMING ? ? ? Therefore IT CAN ONLY BE PRE-TRIB.

    Let me prove that to you.


    Daniel 8:13-14 (HCSB)
    13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the speaker, “How long will ⌊the events of⌋ this vision last—the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and of the host to be trampled?”
    14 He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be restored.”


    The Antichrist will make the TEMPLE DESOLATE for 2,300 DAYS. Then GOD RESTORES IT. That pinpoints the Second coming IF you can Identify a date near the beginning of those 2300 days period.

    Antichrist signs a Seven year Peace Treaty with ISRAEL, it is not that EXACT DATE. So as that is would be 7 x 365 days = 2,555 days, so there must be an additional 255 days, in Prophecy, probably when He was elected, to be HEAD of the European Union. So the closed date would be when He makes a peace treaty with ISRAEL. That is just speculation on my part, but it is Logical.


    So Post-Trib and Mid-Trib are not even in the running according to the 2300 day COUNT, because you can put in a bid on anyone of those days, and the Prophecy No One KNOWS THE DAY, ACES YOU OUT.

    One more thing that I want you to KNOW.

    How do tell the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming in SCRIPTURE.


    The Rapture happens so fast it is referred to as a twinkling of an eye. That is such a small particle of one second it cannot be measured.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (ASV)
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


    Now the Second Coming, Happens so SLOWLY, there is time for the WORLD's Armies to try gather to do battle with HIM.

    Revelation 19:11-21 (HCSB)
    11 Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
    12 His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
    13 He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
    14 The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.
    15 A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
    16 And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
    17 Then I saw an angel standing on the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice, saying to all the birds flying high overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
    18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of their riders, and the flesh of everyone, both free and slave, small and great.”
    19 Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against His army.
    20 But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
    21 The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.


    Zechariah 14:2-4 (HCSB)
    2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
    3 Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
    4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.




    t t t
    Titus 2:13

    VCOrv












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  • FreeGrace
    replied
    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Unfortunately sin and death DOES continue to exist in the NHNE as Isaiah 65 & 66 CLEARLY states:
    Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
    Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

    Do you RECOGNISE that John is REFERENCING Isaiah 65?
    Unfortunately for YOU, this Isa passage is about the Millennium, NOT the NHNE. The NHNE is the eternal state, which follows the GWT judgment.


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  • Timtofly
    replied
    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope, it is part of our current existence.
    Heaven and earth "pass away" prior to the GWToJ is true, but that is not the end of our current existence. People live, die and sin UNTIL the end of the MK. It is when the MK ends with the defeat of Satan and the dead then being raised for judgement and death itself being cast into the LoF that our current existence ends.


    When they give up the dead are they STILL dead or are they raised out of the sea and out of hades and out of death? The CLEAR and SIMPLE answer is that WHEN death gives up the dead bodies they are raised, which means they are resurrected (for that is what resurrected means).
    Also Rev 20:5 notes that there is a first resurrection, which contrasts with a LATER resurrection - when the thousand years are over:
    Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

    This means the rest of the dead DO come to life AFTER the thousand years have ended.

    You say you have a verse, but then don't actually provide one.
    "Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them."

    Given up the dead is the last act of current reality. No they are not simply resurrected nor is resurrection implied. They as the dead are cast into the Lake of Fire. Their souls and spirits, now demonized along with them.

    "And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done. The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done. Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire."

    No bodies mentioned once. If a soul is resurrected, they are resurrected to life. Are you going to go against main stream theology and join those who offer a second chance at Redemption? God is merciful and offers all repentance. Even at the GWT. John does not tell us if there were any dead who changed their mind about God's gift of eternal life.

    Besides the first resurrection is a type, physical. Those at the GWT would be given a first resurrection, ie an incorruptible body. Thus granted eternal physical existence. The Lake of Fire is outside of reality. No need for a body physical or spiritual.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17

    "then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."

    The Lord Adonai is God on the throne. Paul does not say, "meet the Lamb, Jesus Christ and always be with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Paul did not even say the Lord Jesus Christ. Granted, he did not say Lord God. Not in that verse.

    Titus 2:13

    "while continuing to expect the blessed fulfillment of our certain hope, which is the appearing of the Sh’khinah of our great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah."

    Revelation 6:16 claim all on earth see:

    "the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!"

    So when Paul said Lord, was that the Lamb or Adonai God, Lord of the vineyard? The church is stuck in Paradise.

    "After this, I looked; and there before me was a huge crowd, too large for anyone to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language. They were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palm branches in their hands"

    "they are before God’s throne.

    “Day and night they serve him in his Temple;
    and the One who sits on the throne
    will put his Sh’khinah upon them.

    They will never again be hungry,
    they will never again be thirsty,
    the sun will not beat down on them,
    nor will any burning heat.

    “For the Lamb at the center of the throne
    will shepherd them, will lead them
    to springs of living water,
    and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

    Back to the elusive verse:

    "then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."

    Who is the Lord and who is the Lamb?

    Most people today deny the Lamb is coming and setting up His glorious throne in Jerusalem at the 6th Seal. Christ will be on the earth. The church will be in Paradise. Read Matthew 24 and 25 to see what happens at the Second Coming. Adam's sinful flesh is coming to an end. The final harvest by the angels will begin. Revelation 20:4 is the firstfruits of the final harvest, not the church. The 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennium, not the church. The church is forever with the Lord, Adonai God. Not until the New Jerusalem comes down and literally takes up real estate on earth, will the church no longer be "not on earth". Hebrews 11:13-16 proves we are not citizens of earth. The church has not been since the Cross. Before that the church was in Abraham's bosom.

    "All these people kept on trusting until they died, without receiving what had been promised. They had only seen it and welcomed it from a distance, while acknowledging that they were aliens and temporary residents on the earth. For people who speak this way make it clear that they are looking for a fatherland. Now if they were to keep recalling the one they left, they would have an opportunity to return; but as it is, they aspire to a better fatherland, a heavenly one. This is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city."

    Returning to earth? That is a lack of faith/trust in God. Yes in the next reality, but certainly not in this one.

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Unfortunately sin and death DOES continue to exist in the NHNE as Isaiah 65 & 66 CLEARLY states:
    Revelation 21 says when the NHNE occurs that death no longer exists. Nothing in scripture can contradict that fact.

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


    This is not about no death only in NJ but in all the new Earth. This proves the NHNE does not come when the thousand years starts.

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  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Except death does not exist in the NHNE:

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Unfortunately sin and death DOES continue to exist in the NHNE as Isaiah 65 & 66 CLEARLY states:
    Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
    Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

    Do you RECOGNISE that John is REFERENCING Isaiah 65?

    You CONFUSE the NHNE with the NJ.
    In the NJ there is NO MORE death as Rev 21:4 states. However this verse is NOT about the ENTIRE NHNE, which Isaiah 65:20 notes does have death, but life is prolonged compared to before!

    I asked you to state WHEN the NHNE of Isaiah 65 happens, and you have NOT given an answer. This is because to answer this correctly will affect the rest of your cherished beliefs.
    The NJ comes down and the Old Earth is made New, but while in the NJ everything is light (literally, for there is NO darkness in the NJ) this is NOT true for the entirety of the NE until AFTER the GWToJ.
    When we take ALL of scripture and understand what CONNECTS with what else THEN we discover there IS an NHNE when Jesus returns. However it is NOT a fairy tale NHNE, but a world which was broken and is now being restored, and world which still has the affects of sin in it and even some sinners.

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  • ewq1938
    replied
    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope, it is part of our current existence.
    Heaven and earth "pass away" prior to the GWToJ is true, but that is not the end of our current existence. People live, die and sin UNTIL the end of the MK.
    Except death does not exist in the NHNE:

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

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  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
    The GWT is not the last day. It is not even part of current existence. It happens after heaven and earth pass away.
    Nope, it is part of our current existence.
    Heaven and earth "pass away" prior to the GWToJ is true, but that is not the end of our current existence. People live, die and sin UNTIL the end of the MK. It is when the MK ends with the defeat of Satan and the dead then being raised for judgement and death itself being cast into the LoF that our current existence ends.

    There is no verse that claims the GWT is a resurrection. The sea gave up dead bodies. Sheol gave up dead bodies. Death gave up dead bodies. If you add the word resurrection while at the same time fail to see the church no longer on earth, is that not hypocritical?
    When they give up the dead are they STILL dead or are they raised out of the sea and out of hades and out of death? The CLEAR and SIMPLE answer is that WHEN death gives up the dead bodies they are raised, which means they are resurrected (for that is what resurrected means).
    Also Rev 20:5 notes that there is a first resurrection, which contrasts with a LATER resurrection - when the thousand years are over:
    Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

    This means the rest of the dead DO come to life AFTER the thousand years have ended.

    Yous ay you have a verse, but then don't actually provide one.

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  • Timtofly
    replied
    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    If they have ALREADY been judged then what would their purpose be in being there? Would you see them as judging? I see the GWToJ as being Jesus SOLELY judging.
    Now there is a different judgement, which is alluded to when Jesus said the Disciples would judge Israel:
    Mat 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    However I tie THIS judgement into Matthew 25 judgement:
    Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
    Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

    So we have a judgement when the Disciples are resurrected from the dead and sit in judgement on the nation of Israel, as part of the Sheep and Goats judgement, which is a judgement of the LIVING and not the dead.


    I think I understand you, YET you do NOT seem to be providing a SINGLE scripture showing WHEN the OT saints are resurrected, nor do you explain about whether they face judgement, and if so at WHICH judgement, for Job, Daniel and Martha ALL connect it with the GWToJ.
    One receives a position of prominence IF in a judgement one is EXONERATED and declared NOT GUILTY.
    It is a COMMON idea, without scriptural support as such, that the OT saints are resurrected at the SAME time as the NT saints, YET this means they won't be judged contrary to Hebrews 9:27, and contrary to what they expressed their understanding of such things, and contrary to Romans 2, and contrary to the basic flow of the Bible. The ONLY reason we do NOT face judgement for Salvation is because we are ALREADY judged IN Jesus and therefore found not guilty (IF we remain IN Him). Everyone who is IN Jesus is resurrected AT His coming, and faces a different judgement for rewards. These ALL are His Bride, having been born again and receivers of the promise.
    Now there is ONE passage in Hebrews which offers a glimmer for OT saints, which is:
    Heb 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
    Heb 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

    This is the ONLY passage I know of which offers the idea that the OT saints have ALREADY been commended, which means they faced judgement while ALIVE and God declared them righteous. However it is a thin straw and fails as this is A Last Day, which is of this present earth, but not THE Last Day which is tied into judgement.
    The GWT is not the last day. It is not even part of current existence. It happens after heaven and earth pass away.

    The last day resurrection was the Cross. There are no more single day resurrections until the one on the first day of the Millennium. The first day of the Millennium is not the last day of anything. It is a first day. Armageddon is the alledged last hour of the last day of the 7th Trumpet sounding. But the 7th Trumpet is not a resurrection. It is:

    "putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place"

    No resurrection listed.

    “There will be no more delay;on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

    There is no verse that claims the GWT is a resurrection. The sea gave up dead bodies. Sheol gave up dead bodies. Death gave up dead bodies. If you add the word resurrection while at the same time fail to see the church no longer on earth, is that not hypocritical?

    Forever with the Lord, Adonai God is not the same as physically reigning with Jesus Christ on earth. Yes with the Lord is 1000 years on earth. Yet the Day with the Lord is not on earth. The Lord is on the throne where heaven is the throne and the earth is the footstool. In Genesis 2, the Day of Adonai, Day with the Lord was resting in heaven before God came back and created the Garden of Eden. Paradise and Eden did not exist for that 1000 years on earth that was a Day with the Lord in heaven.

    Now after 6000 years of sin, Paradise still does not come to earth. It may be seen from earth. Adonai God, the face of the One sitting on the Throne can be seen by all on the earth. The earth is the footstool. It is currently that way. We in sin cannot see it as part of Adam's punishment. It is closer than we think. Caught up changes that. We are no longer on earth but UP.

    The church is now with Adonai and no longer split between earth and Paradise. 12 thrones, 24 thrones, billions of thrones. We sit in judgement of what goes on in the earth along side of Adonai God on His throne. Forever with Adonai God is what Paul claims, not on earth with Jesus Christ. During the Trumpets and Thunders Christ is gathering souls with the help of angels, souls who will be resurrected Revelation 20:4 to rule and reign with Christ only physically on the earth for 1000 years. Then and only then heaven and earth pass. Then and only then the GWT of the dead. Then and only after the GWT, will there be a NHNE and then New Jerusalem will come down and sit on the earth.

    What verse claims the church comes and harvests the souls instead of the angels? What verse says the church is the 144k instead of those sealed alive on earth who are male, virgins, and of Jacob? What verse says with Jesus, instead of the Lord, Adonai God? What verse says the church is still a Steward of the vineyard after Lord Adonai God Himself is physically present and seen by all on earth? What verse says the glorified sons of God, once changed, leave Paradise ever?

    You ask for a verse that claims we go to Paradise. They all do when it comes to the Resurrection and the Life provided by the Atonement of the Cross. The OT church went to Paradise. They are not in sheol. They are not in Abraham's bosom. They are not walking around on earth. They are not dead, but alive in Christ. If they were all walking around on earth today, still having offspring, this would be the Millennium. It is not. They are not. They do not come to earth at the Second Coming. We meet in the air. The church is Glorified as one single body, "the bride of Christ". The church is then presented to God, and is forever in the temple of God, which is still Paradise. The same alter set up by God when He made them clothes of animal skins. The alter Abel was in charge of before he was killed by Cain. The Garden was given to one son of God, Adam, and to all his descendants. That has never changed. That fact never will.

    The Cross opened Paradise to the church. Those who accepted God's plan, from Abel until the Second Coming are the church. The rest of Adam's descendants live on earth or forever outside of reality in the Lake of Fire.

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  • VCOrv
    replied
    Originally posted by Keraz View Post

    Well; you have yet to post a scripture that says the Lord will take His people to live in heaven.

    Our destiny and our great privilege:

    The issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study this belief. So believers in that idea cannot just assume that a rapture will happen.

    They say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven, to avoid any hardships and testing to come.
    I have a list of 25 scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath.

    What people should consider, is what does God want of us Christians? What is our destiny?
    Jesus gave us a Commission; to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
    Will He say: Nah, don't need to bother any more, come up here and do harp practice! Let the ungodly stew in their own juice.

    NO; we are His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16, also Ezekiel 39:27
    THAT is our task, our destiny and our great privilege.


    I am sure I told you before, EVERYTHING IS NOT IN THE BIBLE, it is a Book of Highlights that GOD wants us to know. HE calls the Rapture a Mystery, and many other things a Mystery. It was not intended for everyone to understand:

    1 Corinthians 2:9-15 (GWT)
    9 But as Scripture says: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him.”
    10 God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches everything, especially the deep things of God.
    11 After all, who knows everything about a person except that person's own spirit? In the same way, no one has known everything about God except God's Spirit.
    12 Now, we didn't receive the spirit that belongs to the world. Instead, we received the Spirit who comes from God so that we could know the things which God has freely given us.
    13 We don't speak about these things using teachings that are based on intellectual arguments like people do. Instead, we use the Spirit's teachings. We explain spiritual things to those who have the Spirit.
    14 A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the teachings of God's Spirit. He thinks they're nonsense. He can't understand them because a person must be spiritual to evaluate them.
    15 Spiritual people evaluate everything but are subject to no one's evaluation.

    1 Corinthians 2:7-10 (NASB)
    7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
    8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
    9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
    10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (ASV)
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.



    If HE explained every thing to where even the Child could understand it, then there would be NO SUCH THING AS A MYSTERY.


    Revelation 22:14 (HCSB)
    14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates.

    Revelation 2:7 (NIV)
    7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.


    JESUS TABLE IS SET.png


    t t t
    Titus 2:13

    VCOrv
    Last edited by VCOrv; Today, 03:52 PM.

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