Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What verse indicates that Jesus returns to Heaven after the reapture of all saints?

    The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.

  • #2
    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
    The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
    The Bible uses the words "caught up", for the Second Coming. There will be a Third coming also, after the 1,000 years (Zechariah 14; Isaiah 24:22; Revelation 20, etc). However, for the second coming, the Bible says that when Jesus returns and raises the dead and translates the living, God brings them all back to Himselfis Father) in Heaven (for the Father remains in Heaven):

    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Psalms 24 also repeats (Ecc. 1:9, 3:15):

    Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
    Psa 24:2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
    Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
    Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
    Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
    Psa 24:6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
    Psa 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
    Psa 24:8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
    Psa 24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
    Psa 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.



    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
      The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
      Answer; There is no verse that says anyone other than the 2 Witnesses are taken to heaven.
      Jesus said such a thing was impossible. John 3:13 He prayed to the Father to NOT take His Christian people away. John 17:15

      Comment


      • #4
        It's really simple.

        1These 4:14,16:

        14- If we believe that Jesus died and rose again....
        16-... the dead in Christ shall rise first.

        I'll try to be succinct. The word that is translated as "rose" in v14 and "rise" in v16, is the word anistemi and not egeiro. Anistemi is the word that refers to what Jesus did AFTER he rose from the dead, egeiro. When the women came to the tomb on resurrection morning, they were given the witness by angels, both outside and inside the tomb that said that Jesus is [already] risen, egeiro. And when Mary Magdalene returned with Peter and John, Jesus appeared to her (John 20:10...after the 2 disciples had returned back to their home), and said, "...I have not yet ascended to the Father...". Later that "same day", Jesus met with the disciples and have them the Holy Ghost when he breathed on them. The Holy Ghost could not be given until Jesus was glorified.

        Joh 7:39 KJV (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


        Joh 16:16 KJV A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

        [Edited to add...]Joh 20:19-22 KJV 19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

        How do we know that Jesus was given the Holy Ghost by the Father? Because Peter tells us that Jesus received the spirit and was exalted by his visit to the Father.

        Act 2:33 KJV Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having RECEIVED of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

        Jesus foretold that he would rise again (egeiro) from the dead on the 3rd day... And he also prophesied that he would rise again (anistemi) from the dead also. Whenever Jesus spoke of the anistemi, ascension of himself from the dead (going to the Father), the disciples failed to understand what Jesus meant by the anistemi... on every occasion.

        Mar 9:9-10 KJV And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen [anistemi] from the dead. And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising [amistemi]from the dead should mean.
        Mar 9:31-32 KJV For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise [anistemi] the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
        Luk 18:33-34 KJV And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise [anistemi] again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
        Luk 24:25-26 KJV Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
        Joh 20:9 KJV For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise [anistemi] again from the dead.

        After Jesus rose from the dead, he rose again to the Father. Jesus was glorified and given the promise of the Holy Ghost when he ascended to the Father AFTER he appeared to Mary Magdalene. In 1Thes 4 Paul used the word anistemi, twice, to refer to when Jesus comes to take the saints, likewise, TO THE FATHER. Our reward, an enduring substance, is eternal in the heavens. Jesus that he would come FIRST with the holy ones, THEN shall he,
        1. Rewand every man according to his works and,
        2. Sit upon the throne of his glory.

        Mat 16:27 KJV For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and THEN he shall reward every man according to his works.

        Mat 25:31 KJV When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

        Dan 7:13-14 KJV 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

        I didn't give a time reference to the tribulations, but that is a whole other ballgame.

        Be blessed
        The PuP

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Vitamin-Christ View Post
          The Bible uses the words "caught up", for the Second Coming. There will be a Third coming also, after the 1,000 years (Zechariah 14; Isaiah 24:22; Revelation 20, etc). However, for the second coming, the Bible says that when Jesus returns and raises the dead and translates the living, God brings them all back to Himselfis Father) in Heaven (for the Father remains in Heaven):

          1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
          Where does the Bible teach anything about a "Third coming"? I've never heard that. As for 1 Thess 4:14, the verse speaks of who will accompany Jesus when He comes at the Second Advent. btw, when Jesus comes to earth this second time, He will be in His glory, and He will set up His Millennial kingdom. So He stays on earth. There are no verses about Jesus going back to heaven again.

          Psalms 24 also repeats (Ecc. 1:9, 3:15):

          Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
          Psa 24:2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
          Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
          Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
          Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
          Psa 24:6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
          Psa 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
          Psa 24:8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
          Psa 24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
          Psa 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
          I'm not sure what you think this passage means. Could you elaborate, please?

          The view of Jesus going back to heaven reminds me of what the SDA believe about the Millennium.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
            It's really simple.

            1These 4:14,16:

            14- If we believe that Jesus died and rose again....
            16-... the dead in Christ shall rise first.

            I'll try to be succinct. The word that is translated as "rose" in v14 and "rise" in v16, is the word anistemi and not egeiro. Anistemi is the word that refers to what Jesus did AFTER he rose from the dead, egeiro. When the women came to the tomb on resurrection morning, they were given the witness by angels, both outside and inside the tomb that said that Jesus is [already] risen, egeiro. And when Mary Magdalene returned with Peter and John, Jesus appeared to her (John 20:10...after the 2 disciples had returned back to their home), and said, "...I have not yet ascended to the Father...". Later that "same day", Jesus met with the disciples and have them the Holy Ghost when he breathed on them. The Holy Ghost could not be given until Jesus was glorified.

            Joh 7:39 KJV (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


            Joh 16:16 KJV A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

            [Edited to add...]Joh 20:19-22 KJV 19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

            How do we know that Jesus was given the Holy Ghost by the Father? Because Peter tells us that Jesus received the spirit and was exalted by his visit to the Father.

            Act 2:33 KJV Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having RECEIVED of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

            Jesus foretold that he would rise again (egeiro) from the dead on the 3rd day... And he also prophesied that he would rise again (anistemi) from the dead also. Whenever Jesus spoke of the anistemi, ascension of himself from the dead (going to the Father), the disciples failed to understand what Jesus meant by the anistemi... on every occasion.

            Mar 9:9-10 KJV And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen [anistemi] from the dead. And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising [amistemi]from the dead should mean.
            Mar 9:31-32 KJV For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise [anistemi] the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
            Luk 18:33-34 KJV And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise [anistemi] again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
            Luk 24:25-26 KJV Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
            Joh 20:9 KJV For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise [anistemi] again from the dead.

            After Jesus rose from the dead, he rose again to the Father. Jesus was glorified and given the promise of the Holy Ghost when he ascended to the Father AFTER he appeared to Mary Magdalene. In 1Thes 4 Paul used the word anistemi, twice, to refer to when Jesus comes to take the saints, likewise, TO THE FATHER. Our reward, an enduring substance, is eternal in the heavens. Jesus that he would come FIRST with the holy ones, THEN shall he,
            1. Rewand every man according to his works and,
            2. Sit upon the throne of his glory.

            Mat 16:27 KJV For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and THEN he shall reward every man according to his works.

            Mat 25:31 KJV When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

            Dan 7:13-14 KJV 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

            I didn't give a time reference to the tribulations, but that is a whole other ballgame.

            Be blessed
            The PuP
            I didn't see any verse that says that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting all believers. That was the question for this thread. Do you have any verses that says He does return to heaven?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
              The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
              There is NO verse. I searched for it and can't find any verse which says we are raptured to any heaven other than the clouds. The problem is that the word for "sky" is the SAME as "heaven", which is why Paul explains more clearly about the 3rd heaven, meaning where God the Father is presently enthroned.
              There is NO Pre-Trib Rapture, which is a concocted idea based on certain assumptions.
              The KEY two assumptions are the Doctrine of the Immanency of Jesus and that Christians will not face the wrath of God.
              The first is simply the idea that as the hour is unknown as to when Jesus might return, so there cannot be a prophecy which clarifies or shows what must occur BEFORE His return. This is poor logic and unsound for various reasons.
              The second is based on Rev 3:10 specifically, which requires this passage to be about the WHOLE church and not that SPECIFIC Church and that God's wrath is indiscriminate even though we do have a clear discrimination in the 10 Plagues which afflicted Egypt (the OT example) and also in the Trumpets and Vials, which is the time when the wrath of God is made manifest.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                I didn't see any verse that says that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting all believers. That was the question for this thread. Do you have any verses that says He does return to heaven?
                So, which [clouds of] heaven do you believe is the following: [1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven?]

                Dan 7:13 KJV I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the "clouds of heaven", and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

                And which [clouds of] heaven is the following:
                [NOTE; You do believe that all 3 passages are referring to the same event, even tho Mark & Luke do not include the whole phrase "clouds of heaven"?]

                Mat 24:30 KJV And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the "clouds of heaven" with power and great glory.

                Mar 13:26 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

                Luk 21:27 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

                Is the context, or your personal bias (of when Jesus comes in the clouds) dictating your answer?

                The Daniel 7 passage should be easy. The direction is "coming TO" the ancient of days. Afterwards, he is given the everlasting kingdom:

                Dan 7:14 KJV And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

                [before we look at the synoptic "coming in the clouds]
                Unless we get sidetracked by the coming of the kingdom of the Son of man...it is yet future:


                2Ti 4:1 KJV I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

                Luk 22:29 KJV And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

                Eph 2:20 KJV And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

                Until the appearing of Christ to judge the quick and the dead, his kingdom is yet to be, and we currently live in the apostolicly appointed kingdom of the church age... until HIS appearing and kingdom comes.

                And this is what we find in the final days fulfillment of the synoptic accounts of the Olivet discourse. After the culminating point of event disclosures of the OD, we see each writers tag of the fig tree parable. The end of Luke's account differs in one primary event relative to Matthew and Mark, and so does his fig tree parable.

                Mt & Mk concluded with "THEN the elect are gathered", whereas Luke does not. This difference is reflected in how they address the meaning of three concepts. They are:
                1. The application of the fig tree,
                2. All these things (seen by this generation)
                3.. THAT day.

                #2 is virtually the same for all three.

                Luke discounts the "gathering of the elect" by saying in his fig tree account that,

                Luk 21:31 KJV So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

                I.e., the KOG is nigh when these things come to pass. Whereas Mt & Mk say,

                Mar 13:29 KJV So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

                and then elaborate to say that what is nigh is the coming of Christ at an unknown day & hour, THAT day.

                Mar 13:32 KJV But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

                My point being that all three writers say that something will be near/ nigh AFTER all these things take place. This includes Christ coming in the clouds of heaven... going TO the Ancient of Days. That is most [people] make their mistake, by excluding his "coming in the clouds" from the list of all these things that will come upon this generation.

                Is the same heavenly "clouds" of Daniel 7 the same heavenly clouds of the Olivet Discourse (whether it be those of the first heaven or the third heaven). I don't think that you can answer them to be the same for the mere fact that you are using interpreters privilege. What I mean by that is YOU/ME are guilty of contextual dyslexia by inserting personage bias and interpretation rather than the context of things.

                As I have already stated, the context of Daniel 7:13,14 is that of being given the kingdom, upon coming in the clouds of heaven TO the Ancient of Days. The basis of Christ being given the everlasting kingdom of God on this earth, are the saints of God living under the authority of the apostolic kingdom.

                Luk 22:29-30 KJV 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 THAT ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

                There are no clouds in Rev 19. That is just another example of fallacious interpreters privilege. The only clouds of heaven that Jesus comes in are the ones in which he rises with the saints to the Father.

                Zec 14:5-9 KJV 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

                I could keep going but I'll stop with this reminder:

                1Th 4:17 KJV Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                Be Blessed
                The PuP

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Vitamin-Christ View Post
                  The Bible uses the words "caught up", for the Second Coming. There will be a Third coming also, after the 1,000 years (Zechariah 14; Isaiah 24:22; Revelation 20, etc). However, for the second coming, the Bible says that when Jesus returns and raises the dead and translates the living, God brings them all back to Himselfis Father) in Heaven (for the Father remains in Heaven):

                  1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

                  Psalms 24 also repeats (Ecc. 1:9, 3:15):

                  Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
                  Psa 24:2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
                  Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
                  Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
                  Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
                  Psa 24:6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
                  Psa 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
                  Psa 24:8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
                  Psa 24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
                  Psa 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
                  A "Third Coming" is not a sound doctrine because Jesus will return once and will remain on earth forever. According to 1 Thess 4:16-17, the resurrected and raptured saints will meet the Lord in the air, there's no ambiguity here. IOW, Jesus will not set his foot on earth, so it's not his return! What did scripture say about his return? Rev 1:7 says that ALL EYES SHALL SEE HIM - unless you believe that the unbelievers who are left behind after the rapture will see Jesus welcoming his saints in the air?

                  Christ welcoming his saints in the air will be a private affair because the mortals (those left behind on earth) cannot see the immortal ie, Christ and the resurrected/raptured saints UNTIL Jesus actually return to earth.

                  Rev 19:14 paints the picture of his actual return with the church now indistinguishable from the angels, thus, as Christ' retinue, they (the saints and angels) are collectively referred to as the "armies which were in heaven" (Rev 19:14).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by FreeGrace View Post
                    The common evangelical view is that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect and rapture all believers and takes them back to Heaven, all before the Great Tribulation. So, what verse or verses teach that Jesus takes all raptured believers to Heaven? Thanks.
                    There are none.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                      So, which [clouds of] heaven do you believe is the following: [1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven?]
                      Dan 7:13 KJV I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the "clouds of heaven", and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
                      Note that Dan 7:13 is stated AFTER the events of Dan 7:11 and 12:
                      Dan 7:11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
                      Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

                      The CONTEXT in Dan 7:13 is that of the clouds (in the SKY).
                      There are NO clouds in the 3rd heaven.

                      And which [clouds of] heaven is the following:
                      [NOTE; You do believe that all 3 passages are referring to the same event, even tho Mark & Luke do not include the whole phrase "clouds of heaven"?]
                      All three speak of the clouds in the 1st heaven. This is CLEARLY understood when we read Acts 1:
                      Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
                      Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
                      Act 1:11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

                      Which clouds are referenced here?
                      You don't NEED clouds in every statement about Jesus' return. What you need is a reference point as to what something is about.
                      1 Cor 15 makes no mention of clouds, but it is CLEARLY the SAME event as 1 Thes 4 which does.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                        Note that Dan 7:13 is stated AFTER the events of Dan 7:11 and 12:
                        Dan 7:11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
                        Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

                        The CONTEXT in Dan 7:13 is that of the clouds (in the SKY).
                        There are NO clouds in the 3rd heaven.


                        All three speak of the clouds in the 1st heaven. This is CLEARLY understood when we read Acts 1:
                        Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
                        Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
                        Act 1:11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

                        Which clouds are referenced here?
                        You don't NEED clouds in every statement about Jesus' return. What you need is a reference point as to what something is about.
                        1 Cor 15 makes no mention of clouds, but it is CLEARLY the SAME event as 1 Thes 4 which does.
                        I don't have any problem with Daniel 7 being about earthly "sky" clouds. It supports the context of the passage that Jesus is going TO the 3rd heaven where the Father/ ancient of days resides., as well as preceding the coming of the kingdom, as demonstrated in Luke 21 and Rev 11.

                        I disagree with your last statement.

                        "1 Cor 15 makes no mention of clouds, but it is CLEARLY the SAME event as 1 Thes 4 which does"

                        I didn't explicitly state it in post #4, but, based on how the gospel writers used the word anistemi, to refer to the post- resurrection ascension of Jesus on the same 3rd day after the crucifixion, AND where the Father dispensed to him the Holy Ghost and glory, BUT Paul's use of anistemi in 1Thess4 demonstrates that the eternal glory of the resurrection is also dispensed by the Father to the saints in similar ascension to the Father. This is also found here:

                        1Th 3:13 KJV To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness BEFORE GOD, even our FATHER, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH all his saints.

                        Contrary to the very common interpretation of 1 Thes 4, you do not find any conferment of immortality in that passage. You only find the dead in Christ rising_anistemi/ascending first, followed by those that are alive and remain rising too. Paul dispels the notion that the dead in Christ would not rise until the time when those who have no hope, rise at the end of the millennium. [This originated with the scripture that says, 'He that endures to the end shall be saved'].
                        Christ comes with the saints to the Father to receive their eternal reward. The combined effects of 1 Thes 4 and 1Cor 15 is that the saints rise at the first trumpet, and the dead are judged and rewarded at the last trumpet, as Rev 11:15-18 states, as well as 1Cor15.

                        Be Blessed
                        The PuP

                        P.S.
                        I demonstrated, with the scriptures why, the coming of Jesus with clouds and glory [Matt 24:30, Mk 16:26, Luke 21:27], is NOT the 2nd advent. Neither is Dan 7:13,14. To substantiate the un-necessariness to the use of clouds in the 2nd advent of Jesus, you need to provide an exegetical example of the 2nd coming WITH clouds, elsewhere.

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          2Ti 4:1 KJV I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Quote the Pup.

                          2 Timothy 4:1 REBible Before God and Christ Jesus, who is to Judge the living and the dead, I charge you solemnly by His Return and reign.

                          Then Paul goes on to say how we must keep on preaching the Gospel, because many will be deceived and will believe in fables.
                          This verse does NOT say the Judgment of everyone will happen at the Return. He will separate the nations, Matthew 25:31-33, and only the GT martyrs will be brought back to life then. Rev 20:4

                          You make a Biblical anomaly if it is thought the final Judgment is at the Return, it is plainly stated in Revelation 20:11-15 as AFTER the Millennium.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Keraz View Post
                            2Ti 4:1 KJV I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Quote the Pup.

                            2 Timothy 4:1 REBible Before God and Christ Jesus, who is to Judge the living and the dead, I charge you solemnly by His Return and reign.

                            Then Paul goes on to say how we must keep on preaching the Gospel, because many will be deceived and will believe in fables.
                            This verse does NOT say the Judgment of everyone will happen at the Return. He will separate the nations, Matthew 25:31-33, and only the GT martyrs will be brought back to life then. Rev 20:4

                            You make a Biblical anomaly if it is thought the final Judgment is at the Return, it is plainly stated in Revelation 20:11-15 as AFTER the Millennium.
                            2Ti 4:8 KJV Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

                            You share the same malady as post-tribbers. You can't distinguish between his appearing and his kingdom. Lest you say, show me...
                            I already did in post#8 with the parable of the fig tree.

                            Be Blessed
                            The PuP

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post

                              So, which [clouds of] heaven do you believe is the following: [1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven?]
                              Why would one assume that the phrase "cloud of heaven" even refers to 1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven? When Jesus ascended to heaven, He was hidden in a cloud. Nothing about any level of heaven there. And the angel standing by told the 11 that He would return "in the same way as He left". iow, in clouds. And that is how His 2nd Advent is described in every verse that deals with His return.

                              I don't think there is any point in addressing the rest of your post until we settle on the "clouds".

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X