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Have you noticed this prophetic connection in Luke 18 and 21?

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  • Have you noticed this prophetic connection in Luke 18 and 21?

    I found this fascinating connection of Luke 18:1ff with Luke 21:36.

    Luk 18:1 KJV And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

    Luk 21:36 KJV Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    At first glance, it looks like a harmless similarity to always keep a mind of prayer. But now read the parable of Luke 18.

    Luk 18:2-8 KJV 2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: 3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. 4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; 5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me. 6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

    The application of this parable? When the Son of man comes. The application of Luke 21:36? When "all these things shall come to pass", aka when the Son of man comes. The placement in Luke 21 makes it be AFTER all these things... when Jesus comes.

    Pre-Trib has notoriously applied this [Luke 21] to why the church will miss the Tribulation. But if that were true, how could it be that Jesus fails to find faith on the earth?

    Post-Trib is not much better off. If "watch and pray" is an exhortation to the church to endure all those things that the church will have to endure. But if that were true, how could it be that Jesus fails to find faith on the earth?

    What do you think?

    Be Blessed
    The PuP
    Last edited by Pesachpup; Jan 9 2021, 10:32 PM. Reason: Spelling

  • #2
    The meanings of pre and post rib should be clarified. Do you mean a pre or post trib 'rapture to heaven' of the Church?
    Or a pre or post trib Return of Jesus, that is before or after the Millennium?

    Re; Luke 21:36 the word 'escape' does not and cannot mean removal from all these things. That meaning is a direct contradiction of Luke 21:34-35, which says; ....that day will come upon everyone the whole world over.
    My REBible says verse 36 correctly: Be alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely thru all that is coming,,,,

    We will face testing, 1 Peter 4:12 makes that clear.
    What would be a great help to endure it all, is knowing what the Lord has planned for our future and being prepared mentally and physically for it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Keraz View Post
      The meanings of pre and post rib should be clarified. Do you mean a pre or post trib 'rapture to heaven' of the Church?
      Or a pre or post trib Return of Jesus, that is before or after the Millennium?

      Re; Luke 21:36 the word 'escape' does not and cannot mean removal from all these things. That meaning is a direct contradiction of Luke 21:34-35, which says; ....that day will come upon everyone the whole world over.
      My REBible says verse 36 correctly: Be alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely thru all that is coming,,,,

      We will face testing, 1 Peter 4:12 makes that clear.
      What would be a great help to endure it all, is knowing what the Lord has planned for our future and being prepared mentally and physically for it.
      Post-tribbers view the Rapture and 2nd advent as one continuous event. Because it says no one has faith : when he comes" at that time, and the same for a Pre-trib Rapture, it refers to an event that takes place at another time. Specifically, it is referring to the elect.... God will avenge them speedily.

      When we look at Luke 21:35 with verse 36, we see that it is a point of beginning for those that dwell on the face of the whole earth. This is the same as where Matthew and Mark, say that he will gather the elect from the ends of the earth, from the 4 winds.
      This is all after the Tribulation of those days. I know we don't agree on a Rapture to heaven, but we do agree that the world will undergo great turmoil BEFORE the elect are gathered to the promised land.

      The gathering of the wheat will be precedes by the removing of the tares from the kingdom first. The kingdom is set up at the conclusion of the 7 trumpets, "the kingdom of God and his Christ has come" Rev 11:15. Jesus will come to earth, finding no faith in the elect, only to be followed by the kingdom of the beast and his mark. Those left on earth must prove themselves worthy of the kingdom. Those who are alive and remain, SHALL BE SAVED. The mark of the beast is that which shall come upon all the inhabitants of the world, Luke 21:35.

      This gathering of the elect, is the beginning of the KOG.

      Luk 21:31 KJV So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

      Luk 13:28-29 KJV 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

      Mar 13:27 KJV And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


      Isa 11:11-12 KJV 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

      Isa 43:5-9 KJV 5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the EAST, and gather thee from the WEST; 6 I will say to the NORTH, Give up; and to the SOUTH, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; 7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. 8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. 9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

      Isa 66:12-20 KJV 12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

      We may disagree about the Rapture, but the Lord Jesus will come with power and great glory, and then and only then will he gather his elect.

      Mat 24:30-31 KJV 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

      Pre-Trib and Post-Trib alike would do well to learn what Luke 18 is saying.

      Luk 18:7 KJV
      And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

      Be Blessed
      The PuP

      Comment


      • #4
        It doesn't say NO ONE will have faith - it is a question "Will anyone have faith?"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
          It doesn't say NO ONE will have faith - it is a question "Will anyone have faith?"
          The hypothetical response is in regards to God avenging those who are undeserving, the elect of Israel. The same sentiment is expressed in Luke 21:36, "pray that ye may be accounted worthy". Without faith it is impossible to please him. God beats long the unbelief of his elect. Bit he will avenge them because they are his elect.

          As Matthew records. All of the tribes (OF ISRAEL) shall mourn when they see Jesus coming in the clouds of glory. John said the same thing in Rev 1:7 when he referred to "those who pierced him" and the word kindred, "phule", translated as tribes in Matt 24.

          I know you have the timing of Zech 14 right (it is not at Armageddon). I just don't get it why you can't accept what it says there: "the lord cometh with all the saints". It conveys the same thought in Isa 66.

          The timing is the same as when the woman travails in Rev 12.

          What is the necessary component for the elect children being gathered from the four winds? The [love, not life] of Jerusalem, even after she has been razed to the ground (for the final 42 months). Because she is the city of the great God. If the children of Israel (at that time) can still believe that God still loves Jerusalem, then that will be the doorway, that he also still loves them as his people, even after experiencing their harshest discipline from God. For starters, the elect in Luke 18 refers to His people. And yes, God will not find faith when he comes (erchomai) because the church was taken (who retained their faith amidst the greatest Tribulation) just prior to this time. This coming is at the 7th Trumpet, with the kingdom, but he finds no faith amongst his people. They will be gathered one by [one] at the sounding of the great Trumpet.

          Isa 27:12-13 KJV 12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

          Be Blessed
          The PuP

          Comment


          • #6
            1 Thes 3:13 clearly shows that there is a Rapture event where the saints are given rest when they are brought before God the Father, AT the coming of Jesus WITH the saints. This verse addresses what most everyone can't seem to grasp. When scripture uses the words "coming of Jesus" , the direction of travele s not to be instinctively taken to only mean FROM heaven, and GOING to earth. Daniel 7 clearly demonstrates that where Jesus is seen COMING with the clouds.... going TO the Ancient of days. The connecting modifier, coming is referring to HOW the son of man was seen.... coming with clouds. And the direction is unmistakably identified as "TO". This is where people make their mistake when looking at the coming of Jesus in the Olivet discourse. People use their biased belief to make the automatic jump to where He is coming from.

            This is borne out in Daniel 7 and Luke 21 and 1 Thes 4. In Daniel 7, Jesus is given the everlasting kingdom, AFTER he comes with the clouds.

            In Luke 21, the kingdom becomes near, only after Jesus is seen coming with a cloud and great glory (more on this in a minute).

            In 1 Thess 4, first the dead in Christ and then the living who remain, are joined unto them (who is the them? ) for what purpose? To meet the Lord in the air. They are already "with" the Lord Jesus at that moment. But they meet together for the explicit purpose of meeting the LORD in the air. It's not the Lord Jesus that they are going to go meet "in the clouds". They are coming "with the clouds" TO meet the Lord in the air.

            Luke 21's Olivet discourse differentiates itself from Matthew and Mark by excluding the gathering of the elect. He then goes on to define that day as the signature arrival of the kingdom, by saying that "when you see these things come to pass, the kingdom of God IS NEAR", but not HERE. JESUS, coming with the saints and with the clouds, is the signature preemptive event that must take place in order to receive the kingdom. Danish 7 goes on to say "and THERE was given him the kingdom...." Where is "THERE"? Before the Ancient of Days! The coming of Jesus with the saints, going before the Father, found in 1 Thes 3 & 4 and 2nd Thes 1, is a necessary prerequisite to Jesus AND the saints receiving the kingdom. After all, we are going to rule and reign with him. God takes the deferment of the divine right to rule very seriously. The fiery trials of Tribulation will determine who is worthy of the kingdom, Roman's 2, 2 Thes 1.

            2Th 1:7-10 KJV 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus SHALL BE REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall COME to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

            They are punished by an everlasting denial of the presence of the Lord. When is Jesus going to be revealed? When he COMES to be glorified in the saints. How is he "glorified in the saints"? And who bestows that glory? None but before the Father.

            Mat 25:31 KJV When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

            Christ must come in his glory WITH all the holy ones, BEFORE he can sit upon the throne of his glory! He doesn't receive the glory of the kingdom until he comes to be glorified in the saints.

            Mat 24:30 KJV And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

            Mar 13:26 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

            Luk 21:27 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

            All of these events are referring to one and the same thing- the necessary precursor to when Christ shah sit upon the throne of his kingdom.. None of which is the 2nd advent. What will be the response of the tribes of Israel? Weeping and gnashing of teeth because I have witnessed the "coming" of the king and his kingdom and I am unworthy of the kingdom.

            Luk 18:7-8 KJV 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

            Jesus unequivocally equates the faithless elect with those who God has continued to bear long with. God finds no pleasure in them. Without faith it is impossible to please him. But he will quickly avenge them because they are the elect of his people, chosen to inherit the kingdom that was prepared for them from the foundation of the world. At his coming, Christ will separate the sheep from the goats- those who love his people, and those who don't. This coming of Jesus in Luke 18 cannot be satisfied by a Pre-trib or a Post-Trib Rapture of the church. It is a different coming of Jesus.

            Be Blessed
            The PuP

            P.s. Mat 10:32 KJV Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

            Comment


            • #7
              In response to #3.
              The great Second Exodus of all of Gods people, now every born again Christian, will happen before Jesus Returns. At the Return, he gathers them again, as the majority of them will be in the place of safety, as Revelation 12:6 and 14 tell us.

              Isaiah 62:1-2a For Zion’s sake, I shall not keep silent – until her victory shines forth, like the sunrise, her victory like a blazing torch. The nations will see your victory and their rulers your glory.
              Isaiah prophesies for the sake of Zion; the holy Land. There will be a great victory, ‘like a blazing torch’ - a CME sunstrike over the attacking enemies. Isaiah 30:25-30 & 66:15-16, Psalms 11:4-6 The world will see it and be amazed. Jeremiah 33:6-16

              Isaiah 62:2b-5 You will receive a new name, the Lord Himself will give it. You will be like a glorious crown in His hand. No more are you forsaken and your Land desolate. You will be called ‘Hephzibah’ and the Land, ‘Beulah’. For the Lord will delight in you and it will be like a marriage: He will rejoice over you as a bridegroom over his bride. ‘Hephzibah’ = My delight is in her. ‘Beulah’ = married. Isaiah 49:18
              The Lord’s people, Christian Israelites from every race, nation and language, will be gathered and settled into their heritage, all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Wonderful promises to them of fertility and wealth. They will live in justice, peace and security, as He intended people to be.

              Isaiah 62:6-7 Jerusalem, on your walls, I have posted watchmen, they will call out: You that invoke the Name of the Lord, do not rest and give no rest to the Lord until He makes Jerusalem a praise throughout the world.
              The Hebrew word for ‘watchmen’, is ‘natzar’, the root word for Nazarene; literally all Christian believers. WE must not rest or let the Lord forget His people and His Land. Keep praying for our redemption and restoration. Ezekiel 36:24-28, Isaiah 52:7-9

              Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn to never again allow foreigners to take the produce of the Land, but you who give praises to Him will eat the grain and drink the wine, within My sacred courts.
              After the great clearance in the Middle East, only His righteous people will be allowed to live there, those who love the Lord and obey Him. Isaiah 66:20-21, Ezekiel 20:38

              Isaiah 62:10-11 Pass through the gates – clear a road for My people. Build a highway, remove the rocks and make a signal to guide the people. Proclaim to the ends of the earth, say to the offspring of Zion: See your deliverance comes, His reward is with Him and He will make recompense.
              The great gathering of the Lord’s people – the second Exodus, will happen in the same manner as the first Exodus. Leaders [shepherds] will arise to guide the flock, in the spirit of Moses and Elijah. Jeremiah 3:14-15, Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 43:5-7, Micah 4:6, Isaiah 49:9-13, Isaiah 51:3, Zechariah 8:11-12, Isaiah 40:1-5, Ezekiel 11:17

              Isaiah 62:12 They will be called ‘The Holy people, the Redeemed of God’ and Jerusalem will be called ‘sought after, the City no longer forsaken’.
              The Lord’s faithful Christian people: living in the Holy Land of Beulah, as He created them to live, being a ‘light to the nations’ and witnesses to His salvation. They will send out 144,000 missionaries to every people group, to preach the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Acts 2:39, Jeremiah 31:23-34

              Joel 2:23-27 People of Zion, rejoice – your God will recompense you for the years that others have ravaged your Land. You will again have plenty in your own Land. Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I and no other am your God. We will know the Lord is present by His deeds. Just as it was at the Exodus. Must be before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                The hypothetical response is in regards to God avenging those who are undeserving, the elect of Israel. The same sentiment is expressed in Luke 21:36, "pray that ye may be accounted worthy". Without faith it is impossible to please him. God beats long the unbelief of his elect. Bit he will avenge them because they are his elect.
                Hypothetical meaning it is NOT a certainty, but you presented it as certain.

                I know you have the timing of Zech 14 right (it is not at Armageddon). I just don't get it why you can't accept what it says there: "the lord cometh with all the saints". It conveys the same thought in Isa 66.
                There are more than ONE Day of the Lord in Zech 14.
                This is what confuses many, just as a number of the OT prophecies also confused those at the time of Jesus' first coming, for they expected Him to rule on earth.
                Not sure exactly what you are referencing in Isaiah 66.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                  Hypothetical meaning it is NOT a certainty, but you presented it as certain.


                  There are more than ONE Day of the Lord in Zech 14.
                  This is what confuses many, just as a number of the OT prophecies also confused those at the time of Jesus' first coming, for they expected Him to rule on earth.
                  Not sure exactly what you are referencing in Isaiah 66.
                  Your thinking is misguided concerning the coming of the Lord. I have already addressed this. The word "coming", in regards to the coming of Jesus has no bearing on direction. E.g, coming in the clouds, coming with chariots, coming with vengeance, coming with a sword, etc, etc. This is principally an in Daniel 7, etc al , already pointed out.

                  Of course there is more than one day of the Lord. I don't know you believe that I think differently. There is the day of Christ, the great day of God Almighty, the day of the Lord, the days of the Son of man. The old testament helps us to differentiate these "coming" days, by the day of wrath of the Lord of hosts. The lord of hosts is also, the King of Israel, the Holy one of God.

                  Psalm 110 makes this it's prime directive. The Lord at thy right hand will strike thru kings on the day of His wrath. There is a direct tie in to the opening of the 6th seal, the wrath of the Lamb. This begins his wrath, in contrast to the day of wrath of God Almighty as found with the 7th Trumpet. Christ is coming back with vengeance. The message in Luke 18 is clear. Christ is with vengeance on his enemies, which includes the enemies of the elect of his people. That is not a hypothetical happening. God bears long with his people. That's not a hypothetical negative. Bearing long is directly tied to having faith. At, his coming, Jesus is going to avenge them speedily, because they are his elect, his people.
                  So let me present some scriptures about the day of wrath of the Lord of hosts.

                  Isa 9:13-14 KJV For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.

                  Isa 9:19 KJV Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

                  Isa 13:9-13 KJV Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

                  Isa 2:10-21 KJV Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. And the idols he shall utterly abolish. And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

                  IsaIan 6 is about Isaiah seeing the Lord of hosts, Jesus, sitting upon his throne.

                  Isa 6:11-13 KJV 11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, 12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. 13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

                  What is the underlying point of these scriptures? The Lord is coming with vengeance, and end result is the desolation of the land of Israel. And it will be a desolation and an astonishment during the 42 month reign of the beast. All of this is essentially initiated with the wrath of the Lamb, at the 6th seal. This is when the gathering of Israel essentially begins one by one, gathering them from the 4 corners of the earth. It doesn't start at the 2nd advent. That is when it ends. Ezekiel 20 bears this out. He will gather them back. But only to the wilderness, on the fringes of his kingdom. They won't be allowed to enter the kingdom until the rebels have been purged from the congregation. He says, "All of them shall e in my holy mount Zion". This is also illustrated in Isaiah 11..."At that time I will gather them from the four corners..." That is where Matthew and Mark tells us when the gathering begins in the O.D. After they see the Son of man coming in the clouds, they will ask mourn and weep. I could tie in another multitude of scriptures here, including Zech 12-14, when the Lord is seen, coming with the saints. How could the lord be seen coming with the saints if the elect are without faith? That is up to you to see.

                  Which brings me to Isa 66. When does the woman ttravails? At Satan's casting out of heaven. When the woman flees into the wilderness for 1260 days. It is the Day of vengeance of the Lamb. Notice verses 14,15. The people of Zion will witness "the hand of the LORD, (his kindness), but indignation toward his enemies". Think back now to Luke 18. The Lord is coming to avenge the elect of his people, though he beats long with them. Even tho they will be still in immemorial at that time. What time is that? It certainly ain't the 2nd advent. But it is his coming.


                  Isa 66:14-20 KJV And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

                  How could elect possibly be without faith, at that time? Simple. The church are the saints who are the ones coming with Jesus.

                  I could go on and on. I could tie in Romans 11 when the Israel's blindness, as per Isa 6 relates, is removed. It's not simply when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. It's when the deliverer, the son of God, comes to Zion, and removes ungodliness from Jacob. This is coming full circle back to psalm 110, when the Lord of hosts, is sent from the fathers right hand to rule "in the midst of his enemies". I could go to Joel 2,3 and Amos 1 where the Lord utters his voice from his holy habitation, Jerusalem, and shake the heavens and the earth, having a controversy with the nation's. But the Lord will be the hope of his people. And all who call on the Lord at that time, WILL BE SAVED. I could point out that that this shout, from God's holy habitation, also found in Jeremiah 25:29ff, is when God "begins to bring evil on Jerusalem... hath a controversy with the nation's...", is but one of the many things that are to happen (that Joel tells us about) BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES, with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, the day of wrath of God Almighty.

                  I am going to quit. I could go on an on. Luke 18 is not about the coming of the Lord at the 2nd advent, or even a Pre-trib Rapture... but I won't.

                  Be Blessed
                  The PuP

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                    Your thinking is misguided concerning the coming of the Lord. I have already addressed this. The word "coming", in regards to the coming of Jesus has no bearing on direction. E.g, coming in the clouds, coming with chariots, coming with vengeance, coming with a sword, etc, etc. This is principally an in Daniel 7, etc al , already pointed out.
                    In what way is it misguided?
                    I have NOT once said the word "coming" has any bearing on direction.

                    As for Isaiah 66, you haven't really clarified.
                    You connect it seemingly with the START of the 1260 days YET also seem to connect it with the END of the 1260 days.
                    So which are you meaning?
                    The Lord does NOT come with all His saints at the START of the 1260 days seems obvious, but DOES come with them AFTER the 1260 days.
                    Hence my point about multiple DotL.
                    One being at the START and another at the END.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                      In what way is it misguided?
                      I have NOT once said the word "coming" has any bearing on direction.

                      As for Isaiah 66, you haven't really clarified.
                      You connect it seemingly with the START of the 1260 days YET also seem to connect it with the END of the 1260 days.
                      So which are you meaning?
                      The Lord does NOT come with all His saints at the START of the 1260 days seems obvious, but DOES come with them AFTER the 1260 days.
                      Hence my point about multiple DotL.
                      One being at the START and another at the END.
                      I didn't connect it to the end. You are reading what I posted wrong. The gathering of the elect and the destruction of Jerusalem happens at the beginning of the 1260 days... In the day of the wrath of the Lord of hosts, when the Lord comes with the saints, when he comes with chariots of fire, when he comes to avenge his elect, when he shouts from his holy habitation, when he comes and his elect are without faith, when the tribes mourn, because they seen him coming with power and great glory. These and all of the events foretold by Joel, precede the day of the Lord (that comes at the 7th Trumpet), they are foretold to happen via the 7 trumpets.

                      [Added: the 7 trumpets fulfill the words of Jesus about the parable of the tares.: (removing the offensive things and people from his kingdom)

                      Mat 13:41-43 KJV 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all THINGS that offend, and THEM which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 THEN shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.]

                      Joe 2:1-2 KJV 1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; THERE HATH NOT BEEN EVER the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

                      The 7th Trumpet begins the day of wrath of God Almighty. It is come. The wrath of the Lord of hosts precedes that day.

                      Rev 11:17-18 KJV 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

                      Be Blessed
                      The PuP
                      Last edited by Pesachpup; Jan 14 2021, 06:01 PM. Reason: Added one thought

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Before the Lord comes!



                        Joe 2:3-5 KJV A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
                        Rev 9:7-9 KJV And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

                        Joe 2:10-11 KJV The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
                        Rev 6:12-14 KJV And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

                        Joe 2:19 KJV Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
                        Rev 6:6 KJV And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

                        Joe 2:20 KJV But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
                        Mat 13:41 KJV The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

                        Joe 2:30-32 KJV And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
                        Rev 8:7-12 KJV The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
                        Rev 12:1 KJV And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

                        Mar 13:25 KJV And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
                        Rev 9:1 KJV And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

                        Rev 9:18 KJV By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
                        Eze 5:12 KJV A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.


                        Joe 2:18 KJV Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
                        Eze 5:13-15 KJV Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them. Moreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by. So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it.
                        Joe 2:32 KJV And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

                        Joe 2:12 KJV Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

                        Mat 24:30 KJV And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                        Luk 18:8 KJV I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

                        Be Blessed
                        The PuP

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This is why the 2 witnesses and the trampling of Jerusalem for 42 months [in Rev 10 and 11] is included amidst of the trumpet judgments. Elijah comes before the great day of the Lord comes. Jerusalem is made a desolate wilderness, before Israel's blindness is removed.

                          Mal 4:5 KJV Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

                          Isa 6:10-12 KJV 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, 12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

                          Be Blessed
                          The PuP

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            More to think about.

                            How do we know that the 7 Trumpet angels are there executing the will and wrath of the Son? (To purge his kingdom from the vile and wicked?

                            Mat 13:41 KJV The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

                            1. Blood is needed to purge sin. The first 4 trumpets are dominated with blood.

                            2. When it came time for the children of Israel to enter the promised land, God send hornets to drive out the inhabitants of the land and destroy those that remained. This is what we find with the 5th & 6th trumpets:

                            Rev 9:10 KJV And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

                            Rev 9:18-19 KJV 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.


                            Exo 23:28 KJV And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.

                            Deu 7:20 KJV Moreover the LORD thy God will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed.

                            Jos 24:12 KJV And I sent the hornet before you, which drave them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; but not with thy sword, nor with thy bow.

                            Be Blessed
                            The PuP

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pesachpup View Post
                              I didn't connect it to the end. You are reading what I posted wrong. The gathering of the elect and the destruction of Jerusalem happens at the beginning of the 1260 days... In the day of the wrath of the Lord of hosts, when the Lord comes with the saints, when he comes with chariots of fire, when he comes to avenge his elect, when he shouts from his holy habitation, when he comes and his elect are without faith, when the tribes mourn, because they seen him coming with power and great glory. These and all of the events foretold by Joel, precede the day of the Lord (that comes at the 7th Trumpet), they are foretold to happen via the 7 trumpets.
                              So we disagree about Zech 14 and many other things.

                              Added: the 7 trumpets fulfill the words of Jesus about the parable of the tares.: (removing the offensive things and people from his kingdom)
                              Only the 7th Trumpet is in relation to the removal of the tares.
                              The 7th Trumpet begins the day of wrath of God Almighty. It is come. The wrath of the Lord of hosts precedes that day.
                              The 7th Trumpet begins the 42 months and the wrath of God Almighty as shown in the 7 Vials.
                              The DotL though is at the END of the 42 months ONCE the tares are removed.
                              You somehow are arguing for the wheat to be removed first and the tares left, which is the OPPOSITE of what Jesus stated.

                              Rev 11:17-18 KJV 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
                              This refers to many things, but the time of the dead to be judged is at the end of the Millennium Kingdom. This shows that this passage is NOT about the singular moment of the 7th Trumpet being blown, but about things which will now occur FOLLOWING the blowing of the 7th Trumpet.

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