Discussion Jesus ties Babylon the great to the Jerusalem of the first century

[marty fox]

Luke 11:47-51
⁴⁷ “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. ⁴⁸ So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. ⁴⁹ Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’⁵⁰ Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, ⁵¹ from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Jesus’ words above was a prophecy against the Jerusalem of the first century. We then see this fulfilled in the destruction of Babylon the great in the verses below found in Revelation chapter 18. Thus Jesus ties Babylon the great to the Jerusalem of the first century.

Revelation 18:20 & 24

20“Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
with the judgment she imposed on you.”

24In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

[ForHisglory]

Note that in Luke 11 it is NOT Jerusalem which is held responsible, but "this generation". IOW a people and NOT a place.
However in Rev 18 it is seen to be a place that is responsible. This hints at what Mystery Babylon is about, not a PHYSICAL location but a STATUS.

[marty fox]

Note that in Luke 11 it is NOT Jerusalem which is held responsible, but "this generation". IOW a people and NOT a place.
However in Rev 18 it is seen to be a place that is responsible. This hints at what Mystery Babylon is about, not a PHYSICAL location but a STATUS.

Yes I agree it is people but Jesus identified Jerusalem with the Jews living in the Jerusalem of His time

Matthew 23:35-39
³⁵ And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. ³⁶ Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

³⁷ “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. ³⁸ Look, your house is left to you desolate. ³⁹ For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord

[shepherdsword]

Jerusalem is referred to as "Sodom" and "Eygpt" in Revelation but never as Babylon. This means that both literal and mystery babylon are something else altogether.

[marty fox]

Jerusalem is referred to as "Sodom" and "Eygpt" in Revelation but never as Babylon. This means that both literal and mystery babylon are something else altogether.

Actually Rev 11:8 ties together with Rev 18:21

11:8
⁸ Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified

18:21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.

They are both called "the great city" there can be many great cities but there can only be one "the great city"

Besides all this what really matters is that Jesus told the first century Jews that they killed the prophets and that they were going to persecute the church and they did then Jesus said that the blood of all of the prophets and saints would fall upon them and it did in 70AD.

Then we read in Revelation 18 and we see that the angle told John that Babylon the great also persecuted the prophets and the saints and that the exact same wrath of all killed on the earth would come upon her and it did. This can only happened to one and the same people

So people can deny this all they want but this was the very words right out of Jesus' mouth

[marty fox]

Jerusalem is referred to as "Sodom" and "Eygpt" in Revelation but never as Babylon. This means that both literal and mystery babylon are something else altogether.

Jerusalem being referred to Sodom and Egypt just represented her morality and oppression

[shepherdsword]

Actually Rev 11:8 ties together with Rev 18:21

11:8
⁸ Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified

18:21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.

They are both called "the great city" there can be many great cities but there can only be one "the great city"

Besides all this what really matters is that Jesus told the first century Jews that they killed the prophets and that they were going to persecute the church and they did then Jesus said that the blood of all of the prophets and saints would fall upon them and it did in 70AD.

Then we read in Revelation 18 and we see that the angle told John that Babylon the great also persecuted the prophets and the saints and that the exact same wrath of all killed on the earth would come upon her and it did. This can only happened to one and the same people

So people can deny this all they want but this was the very words right out of Jesus' mouth

Babylon is called the great city that rules over the cities of the earth. This is something that Jerusalem has never done. You are making an unwarranted merging of the statement of Jesus with the one concerning babylon to suite your view. All it says of babylon is that she is drunken with the blood of the martyrs. Jerusalem will be overrun by the cities of the earth...not reign over them as Babylon does.

[ForHisglory]

Yes I agree it is people but Jesus identified Jerusalem with the Jews living in the Jerusalem of His time
Matthew 23:35-39
³⁵ And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. ³⁶ Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

³⁷ “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. ³⁸ Look, your house is left to you desolate. ³⁹ For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord

Now you do have a point here that those who live IN Jerusalem are connected with it.
Mote that Jesus refers to her children, speaking of people in a place.
Moreover the PLACE is left desolate because of what the people choose.

As you put for shepherdsword, if Egypt is oppression and Sodom is Morality, then Jerusalem is something else and Babylon something else again.
You haven't managed to make the case for Jerusalem to be Babylon as a LOCATION but only as a TYPE.

[marty fox]

Now you do have a point here that those who live IN Jerusalem are connected with it.
Mote that Jesus refers to her children, speaking of people in a place.
Moreover the PLACE is left desolate because of what the people choose.

As you put for shepherdsword, if Egypt is oppression and Sodom is Morality, then Jerusalem is something else and Babylon something else again.
You haven't managed to make the case for Jerusalem to be Babylon as a LOCATION but only as a TYPE.

Because Babylon is the description for Jerusalem

But rather than bring these things up first lets focus on what Jesus actually said in the OP.

If you read Ezekiel chapter 16 and then Revelation chapter 18 you will see how similar they are and that one describes the other and you were see that Jerusalem is the great prostitute

Only Israel killed both the saints and the prophets

[marty fox]

Babylon is called the great city that rules over the cities of the earth. This is something that Jerusalem has never done. You are making an unwarranted merging of the statement of Jesus with the one concerning babylon to suite your view. All it says of babylon is that she is drunken with the blood of the martyrs. Jerusalem will be overrun by the cities of the earth...not reign over them as Babylon does.

Jerusalem ruled over the earth because it was Gods city and He rules the earth

But rather than bring these things up first lets focus on what Jesus actually said in the OP.

If you read Ezekiel chapter 16 and then Revelation chapter 18 you will see how similar they are and that one describes the other and you were see that Jerusalem is the great prostitute

Only Israel killed both the saints and the prophets

[ForHisglory]

Because Babylon is the description for
But rather than bring these things up first lets focus on what Jesus actually said in the OP.

If you read Ezekiel chapter 16 and then Revelation chapter 18 you will see how similar they are and that one describes the other and you were see that Jerusalem is the great prostitute

Only Israel killed both the saints and the prophets

What you confuse is what is said FOR Jerusalem because of what Jerusalem represents and what is said FOR Babylon because of what Babylon represents.
BOTH are called whores and BOTH therefore have a rightful Husband, but also BOTH turn away from Him.
However Babylon was a sinful place AT THE SAME TIME as Jerusalem (then only known as Salem) existed.
Babylon was where the FIRST societal sin is noted in the Bible. Prior to this it was individual sins noted.

Therefore Jerusalem was what Babylon should have been, but then Jerusalem became like Babylon.
This doesn't make Jerusalem Babylon, nor vice versa, but rather that BOTH went wrong.
However Jerusalem was made desolate in 70 AD, but Babylon is a future desolation.

[marty fox]

What you confuse is what is said FOR Jerusalem because of what Jerusalem represents and what is said FOR Babylon because of what Babylon represents.
BOTH are called whores and BOTH therefore have a rightful Husband, but also BOTH turn away from Him.
However Babylon was a sinful place AT THE SAME TIME as Jerusalem (then only known as Salem) existed.
Babylon was where the FIRST societal sin is noted in the Bible. Prior to this it was individual sins noted.

Therefore Jerusalem was what Babylon should have been, but then Jerusalem became like Babylon.
This doesn't make Jerusalem Babylon, nor vice versa, but rather that BOTH went wrong.
However Jerusalem was made desolate in 70 AD, but Babylon is a future desolation.

So who would Babylon's husband of been?

But lets get back to the OP all of the blood of those killed could only come upon one entity as Jesus said. That's why she was called "mystery" Babylon there was a mystery to solve who she was

Peter below describes Babylon as a code for a place that was around during his time and many believe that he was about the church in Jerusalem

1 Peter 5:13
¹³ She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.

[ForHisglory]

So who would Babylon's husband of been?
But lets get back to the OP all of the blood of those killed could only come upon one entity as Jesus said. That's why she was called "mystery" Babylon there was a mystery to solve who she was
Peter below describes Babylon as a code for a place that was around during his time and many believe that he was about the church in Jerusalem
1 Peter 5:13
¹³ She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.

Why do you think its code? Did Babylon exist in the 1st century?
Christianity was introduced to Mesopotamia in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, and Babylon was the seat of a Bishop of the Church of the East until well after the Arab/Islamic conquest.
Therefore this was NOT a code used by Peter. Rather it was a real place which was the principal place for the Church in the East.

[marty fox]

Why do you think its code? Did Babylon exist in the 1st century?
Christianity was introduced to Mesopotamia in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, and Babylon was the seat of a Bishop of the Church of the East until well after the Arab/Islamic conquest.
Therefore this was NOT a code used by Peter. Rather it was a real place which was the principal place for the Church in the East.

I believe it was a code just like Babylon the great is called mystery as in a code.

But again once more how about addressing the OP about Jesus and John using the exact same words in both Luke and revelation to who the wrath of the prophets and the saints would fall upon

[ForHisglory]

I believe it was a code just like Babylon the great is called mystery as in a code.
But again once more how about addressing the OP about Jesus and John using the exact same words in both Luke and revelation to who the wrath of the prophets and the saints would fall upon

What happened to Jerusalem is then an EXAMPLE for what will happen to Babylon.
Jerusalem is NOT Babylon.
The ONLY reason to think that is IF you make the Preterist error of having Revelation written BEFORE 66 AD.